It's a really poorly concealed attempt to get some kind of "white pride" momentum going.

I don't think a Presidential campaign has sunk so low in a long time.

Of Dutch ancestry, IIRC.

And "Eisenhower was our only president of predominantly German descent."

Is it just me or have we somehow dumbed down so much that the European history has been forgotten?

Last I checked, the "Saxons" of "Anglo-Saxon" fame, came from people who originated partly in what is modern day Germany. Maybe the BBC school kid lessons will help:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryhistory/anglo_saxons/who_were_the_anglo-saxons/

It's a shame that I have been so indoctrinated in European history that this produced red flags, yet my own African history is still relegated to unnatural obsessions with safaris, hiking through fictitious jungles of the "dark continent", and people with flies crawling all over them summarily assigned every disease known under the sun, and who will die any minute now.

Guten Tag!

It's a language in the Germanic group; and Saxony is in Germany. But at the time of major migration, what is now Germany had various groups still moving around (for instance, the Franks, from whom France gets its name, were in part of modern-day Germany, in the 3rd century). As Wikipedia puts it:

which also included part of what is now Holland and the Netherlands.



If one wants to use one timeframe for Rmoney as some sort of definition of "Anglo-Saxon" and another timeframe for Eisenhower, having descended from one of the originator groups of what has been called the "Anglo-Saxons", then we have really jumped the shark That's because this suggests that every single solitary person in the entire area of what was Saxony "picked up and left" for England and whoever were left, were complete foreigners who were then called "Germans".

If Eisenhower had come from France or Spain or even Italy or Greece, I could see making the argument.

You put up a map of 'Old Saxony', 10th century. In fact, that's a map of the 'Kingdom of Germany' the eastern section of Charlemagne's empire. Look at the enlargement of it at that Wikipedia link, and you see "Hzt. Sachsen" is just the area on what would now be called Saxony - Hamburg, as far south as Dortmund, and with the Elbe forming much of its eastern boundary (the 'Old Saxony' label has just been superimposed by the slightly strange looking site here: http://www.englandandenglishhistory.com/origins-of-ethnic-english).

The point is that an ethnic group that called themselves 'Deutsch' developed in roughly what is now Germany, centuries after some Saxons, along with some Angles and Jutes, migrated to what is now England. The Germans don't regard the English as of German descent, and the English don't regard themselves as of German descent. There's more to the Anglo-Saxon grouping than just Saxons, and there's more to the German grouping than just Saxons.

By the tenth century, "Anglo-Saxon" referred only to people in Britain - nearly all in England, with a few in the Edinburgh area too (in fact, as 'Anglo-Saxon', rather than the separate 'Angles' and 'Saxons', it was only used to mean those who went to Britain, and whose kingdoms there gradually merged into 'England'). There was no significant migration from the Saxony area to Britain by that time.

All I'm telling you is standard usage.

posted in another thread, that indicated the following (from here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/25/mitt-romney-anglo-saxon-values)-

'Germanic' includes all the groups with languages in the Germanic group - Dutch and Scandinavians as well as English/Anglo-Saxons and Germans. What we call, in English, 'German', is called, in modern German, 'Deutsch', and that grouping is first identified after the migration from the area of Saxony to Britain ended. So it would unusual (and maybe inaccurate) to talk about a typical Englishman as being of German descent, and it is therefore accurate to say Eisenhower was the first president of mainly German descent.

that Eisenhower is not "German" nor am I saying he is "English" (or "Briton&quot . I am saying that "ethnically", he and modern "Brits" (who are an admixture) are descending from the same progenitor entities (ie., "ethnics", not just "language groups&quot that resided in what was once known as Saxony (which partially includes modern Germany).

Your argument is trying to suggest some "purity" of ethnicity among both Germans and English that doesn't exist and that is what got Germany in trouble during WW2 when trying to manufacture "Aryans" and has gotten the U.S. into heaps of trouble with "1-drop" laws as an ethnic purity test well before WW2, and for de facto "purity" (via use of code-words such as "Anglo-Saxon&quot through to today (as Rmoney and his lackeys are being ridiculed about right now).

You thought that saying Eisenhower lacked an Anglo-Saxon heritage, and that he was the only president of predominantly German descent, showed an ignorance of history. I am trying to point out that 'Anglo-Saxon' is a term used for the people and kingdoms in what is now England (probably first for Alfred, at the end of the 9th century, who ruled over both what was Mercia, an Anglian kingdom, and Wessex, a Saxon one, in opposition to the Danelaw, ruled by recently arrived Danes). As such, Eisenhower did lack an "Anglo-Saxon heritage"; it's possible some of his ancestors came from Saxony (I don't know), but that doesn't make them Anglo-Saxon.

And, as I pointed out, 'German' is normally used in English to mean 'Deutsch' - the ethnic group that is considerably larger than just inhabitants of Saxony, and that was not in use at the time that some Saxons migrated to Britain. So it is perfectly acceptable, historically, to say that someone English is not of "predominantly German descent", and thus of other presidents who had predominantly English ancestors. The article quoted in the OP was not 'dumbed down' (for that reason, anyway), as you claimed.

I never claimed that "someone English" was "predominantly German descent".

The point was the term "Anglo-Saxon" and the origin of it, regardless of any "modern use" of it. I.e., there is no such thing as a "pure Anglo-Saxon" and the ethnicities that make it up have a commonality with those who make up the modern Germans. I.e., I had an issue with the "despite his lack of Anglo-Saxon heritage" because his "heritage" as a German-descendant, has an overlap with those who are now in England.

So yes IMHO, it is dumbed down, but other articles that have been posted better reflect the genealogical reality and in a humorous tone.

And I live in an area with the "Pennsylvania Dutch" (misnamed from "Deutsch&quot and am quite aware of the term. I also live adjacent to one of the oldest German-settled communities in this nation - Germantown, Philadelphia.

http://www.padutchcountry.com/towns-and-heritage/amish-country/amish-history-and-beliefs.asp

http://www.germantownhistory.org/

since Saxony is just one part of Germany, and I haven't seen anything saying his ancestors were from that particular part (the male line comes from the Odenwald via Saarland: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5pWn7VR-nHwC&lpg=PA22&ots=EWHHvX_kWU&dq=%22eisenhower%22%20%22ancestors%22%20%22germany%22&pg=PA22#v=onepage&q=%22eisenhower%22%20%22ancestors%22%20%22germany%22&f=false ).

You can't say that an Italian has an Italian-American heritage, even though he shares ancestors with Italian-Americans. The Anglo-Saxon ethnic group developed separately from Saxony.

We have been dumbed down quite a bit.

As you say, Anglo-Saxon is not just a language group. The Angles and the Saxons were both Germanic tribes. Both invaded Britain and exerted great influence on the culture. I consider Anglo-Saxon to have its roots in the Germanic tribe culture.

I am of Germanic decent. Both sides of my family immigrated to the Hudson River Valley circa 1710 from the Rhine/Mosel river area.

So you are a Palatinate! That migration happened in 1708 ish. My deceased partner was a German-Dutch Palatine and I have the books by Henry Jones. Just the first two volumes, there is a third out now. Many were at the East Camp in present day Kinderhook. some of those families migrated to Schoharie County.

Both sides of my family still live in what is now called Germantown, NY in southern Columbia County. It was the original East Camp on the Robert Livingston Estate in 1710-1712. I actually have a copy somewhere of the ship's manifest from when my many-greats arrived in New York. I was born and raised in Hudson. My cousin has traced our roots back to 1684 near Saarbrucken. A lot of the Palatines stayed around the lower end of Columbia County and moved east to farms in the Taghkanic area. I am related to almost everyone there! The Palatines mostly intermarried with each other and there was not a lot of ethnic mixing until recently.

I also have the Jones books and another one that describes the descendants on the first ten or so generations of my particular family. It was fun trying to figure out all the "begats." lol.

I understand the historical migration of tribes from the continent to the Isles.

And yet the term "Anglo-Saxon" refers to people of English descent as far as common usage.

For example Angela Merkel would not typically be refered to as Anglo-Saxon.

but using the literal "descendent" - coming from something that helped to make up what is now termed "Anglo-Saxon".

I.e., Eisenhower descends from a one of the "contributors" to what became the Anglo-Saxon (they share a part of a common ancestry).

At least some of the Amish. Some still ride horse and buggies and have no electricity.

They call everyone else besides themselves 'English'. I guess most of the Amish came from Switzerland or southern Germany like the PA Dutch. It is interesting how many different branches and groups of Germans there were. I myself am a real mutt of the USA. No German, but I do have a bit of English in me.

and grew up interacting with the Amish and Mennonites in the area (most notably Lancaster County, PA). Also live a couple miles from the Philadelphia neighborhood still called "Germantown", where some of the oldest of the German immigrants (who became abolitionists) once lived. My own neighborhood still has many Germans although thanks to WWII, many still remain low-key. Still, they are the 2nd largest European ethnic group behind the Irish.

In another thread, there was a post linking to a commentary article from the Guardian where they mock Rmoney and the "Anglo-Saxon" gaffe. There is one part at the end (as part of a bullet-point set of "recommendations&quot that says -

Andrew Jackson 7th President, 1829-37: He was born in the predominantly Ulster-Scots Waxhaws area of South Carolina two years after his parents left Boneybefore, near Carrickfergus in County Antrim. A heritage centre in the village pays tribute to the legacy of 'Old Hickory', the People's President. Andrew Jackson then moved to Tennessee, where he began a prominent political and military career. James Knox Polk 11th President, 1845-49: His ancestors were among the first Ulster-Scots settlers, emigrating from Coleraine in 1680 to become a powerful political family in Mecklenburg County, North Carolina. He moved to Tennessee and became its governor before winning the presidency.

James Buchanan 15th President, 1857-61: Born in a log cabin (which has been relocated to his old school in Mercersburg, Pennsylvania), 'Old Buck' cherished his origins: "My Ulster blood is a priceless heritage". The Buchanans were originally from Deroran, near Omagh in County Tyrone where the ancestral home still stands. Andrew Johnson 17th President, 1865-69: His grandfather left Mounthill, near Larne in County Antrim around 1750 and settled in North Carolina. Andrew worked there as a tailor and ran a successful business in Greeneville, Tennessee, before being elected Vice-President. He became President following Abraham Lincoln's assassination.

Ulysses S. Grant[74] 18th President, 1869-77: The home of his maternal great-grandfather, John Simpson, at Dergenagh, County Tyrone, is the location for an exhibition on the eventful life of the victorious Civil War commander who served two terms as President. Grant visited his ancestral homeland in 1878. The home of John Simpson still stands in County Tyrone.[75]

Chester A. Arthur 21st President, 1881-85: His succession to the Presidency after the death of Garfield was the start of a quarter-century in which the White House was occupied by men of Ulster-Scots origins. His family left Dreen, near Cullybackey, County Antrim, in 1815. There is now an interpretive centre, alongside the Arthur Ancestral Home, devoted to his life and times.

Grover Cleveland 22nd and 24th President, 1885-89 and 1893-97: Born in New Jersey, he was the maternal grandson of merchant Abner Neal, who emigrated from County Antrim in the 1790s. He is the only president to have served non-consecutive terms. Benjamin Harrison 23rd President, 1889-93: His mother, Elizabeth Irwin, had Ulster-Scots roots through her two great-grandfathers, James Irwin and William McDowell. Harrison was born in Ohio and served as a brigadier general in the Union Army before embarking on a career in Indiana politics which led to the White House. William McKinley 25th President, 1897-1901: Born in Ohio, the descendant of a farmer from Conagher, near Ballymoney, County Antrim, he was proud of his ancestry and addressed one of the national Scotch-Irish congresses held in the late 19th century. His second term as president was cut short by an assassin's bullet.

Theodore Roosevelt 26th President, 1901-09: His mother, Mittie Bulloch, had Ulster Scots ancestors who emigrated from Glenoe, County Antrim, in May 1729. Roosevelt praised "Irish Presbyterians" as "a bold and hardy race."[76] However, he is also the man who said: "But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts "native"* before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen." [2] (*Roosevelt was referring to "nativists", not American Indians, in this context)

Woodrow Wilson 28th President, 1913-21: Of Ulster-Scot descent on both sides of the family, his roots were very strong and dear to him. He was grandson of a printer from Dergalt, near Strabane, County Tyrone, whose former home is open to visitors.

Richard Nixon 37th President, 1969-74: The Nixon ancestors left Ulster in the mid-18th century; the Quaker Milhous family ties were with County Antrim and County Kildare.

according to family lore. But I guess he could have been Ulster Scots. Were they Scots who the English had transplanted from Scotland to No. Ireland to rule on behalf of the English crown?

we called ourselves Scottish for years. Then when we finally did the genology we found out our.family came.from northern Ireland. And yes they were (mostly lowland) Scots sent there by the English to keep the Irish down. Many got sick of of after a few generations and went to turn American colonies. My folks came about 1790 also. There was a break in migration during the revolution. But then it picked back up right after hostilities ended.

that occurred much later and was primarily in the highlands.

they were basically the English crown's expendible shock troop for pacifying Ireland. Some were very well forced to go to there and lost their land in Scotland. Generations later, when the American colonies came about, many booked it out of there, looking for brighter economic possibilities and tired of being Presbyterians who Anglicans used to kill Catholics.

They come from Argyll, which, while not as mountainous as the north of Scotland, is still rugged country, and could have been subject to the same push for sheep farming.

and Protestants migrating from Ulster to America in 1790 would probably more likely be the descendants of those Lowlanders. But yeah they could be Highlanders who had been cleared out by the 1 percenters of their day.

The 'from Ulster' appears to be a complete guess at an alternative. It's quite possible that the family story is correct; and the date means it could be Clearance-related, but it is quite early for that.

and yes it would be early but they could be "cleared" highlanders who came directly to america.

The names easily give them away.

But this is a much longer list !

I thought also maybe President Clinton but wasn't sure.

not only the first non-Anglo-Saxon President, but he grew up speaking Dutch. It's a wonder the republic was able to survive.

Anglo and he was president before van buren.

Herbert Hoover (orig. Huber) was of German descent. James Monroe was a Scot.

Wolf

... pretty famous for being blackmailers, crooks, and playing both sides of the Anglo-Scottish border as convenient. No offense intended to current Nixons, of course.

So Tricky just lived up to his heritage...

-- Mal

Both WASP and Scots-Irish that is.