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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJoe McCarthy wires President Truman, today 1950. Truman's response was epic.
Michael Beschloss @BeschlossDC 2h2 hours agoJoe McCarthy wires President TrumanI have in my possession the names of 57 Communists who are in the State Departmenttoday 1950:
Luke Rosa @StudentsHistory 2h2 hours ago
Truman's response was epic
tblue37
(65,489 posts)badhair77
(4,221 posts)Ive never seen this draft before and I spent many years discussing McCarthy when I taught The Crucible in American Lit class. Thanks for posting.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...contrasted against our surreal present.
https://twitter.com/StudentsHistory
spanone
(135,882 posts)Golden Raisin
(4,614 posts)And let's not forget that Roy Cohn (of Joe McCarthy infamy) was lawyer, friend and mentor to the young Donald Trump.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)MyOwnPeace
(16,939 posts)who would "tell it like it is." (the 37% like to claim this for their supporting IQ45).
I never did give them hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell.
― Harry Truman
FakeNoose
(32,773 posts)A man of courage, dignity, and unafraid to face opponents and call their bluff.
Wow!
Luciferous
(6,085 posts)Martin Eden
(12,875 posts)The man definitely had a spine.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)In addition to fighting the red scare, he said that it was bullshit to have some Americans fighting for the country be treated like second class citizens while in uniform, he started efforts to integrate schools. FDR catered to racists, Truman took them on.
PatrickforO
(14,592 posts)America needs you
Harry Truman
Harry could you please come home
Things are looking bad
I know you would be mad
To see what kind of men
Prevail upon the land you love
America's wondering
How we got here
Harry all we get is lies
We're gettin' safer cars
Rocket ships to mars
From men who'd sell us out
To get themselves a piece of power
We'd love to hear you speak your mind
In plain and simple ways
Call a spade a spade
Like you did back in the day
You would play piano
Each morning walk a mile
Speak of what was going down
Each honesty and style
America's calling
Harry Truman
Harry you know what to do
The world is turnin' round and losin' lots of ground
Oh Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
Oh woah woah woah
America's calling
Harry Truman
Harry you know what to do
The world is turnin' round
And losin' lots of ground
So Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
Oh
Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
Harry
Harry is there something we can do to save the land we love
rurallib
(62,450 posts)calimary
(81,507 posts)How'd I miss that one?
Thanks for posting it, rurallib! And, PatrickforO, thanks for the lyrics!
lark
(23,158 posts)That, my dears, is how you deal with a bully. Too bad more don't treat our orange assface bully this way, it's the least of what he deserves. Of course, I want to see him get his true just deserts and lose everything including the bit of $$ he's stolen from us and the office he stole with the help of russia.
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)Anyone got a link to this? I want to believe it...
deurbano
(2,896 posts)And here's a letter he did send, but not to McCarthy:
https://www.gilderlehrman.org/content/harry-s-truman-responds-mccarthy-1950
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)bigtree
(86,005 posts)excerpt:
President Truman: ...the Republicans have been trying vainly to find an issue on which to make a bid for the control of the Congress for next year. They tried statism. They tried welfare state. They tried socialism. And there are a certain number of members of the Republican Party who are trying to dig up that old malodorous dead horse called isolationism. And in order to do that, they are perfectly willing to sabotage the bipartisan foreign policy of the United States. And this fiasco which has been going on in the Senate is the very best asset that the Kremlin could have in the operation of the cold war. And that is what I mean when I say that McCarthys antics are the best asset that the Kremlin can have.
Now, if anybody really felt that there were disloyal people in the employ of the Government, the proper and the honorable way to handle the situation would be to come to the President of the United States and say, This man is a disloyal person. He is in such and such a department. We will investigate him immediately, and if he were a disloyal person he would be immediately fired.
That is not what they want. They are trying to create an issue, and it is going to be just as big a fiasco as the campaign in New York and other places on these other false and fatuous issues.
With a little bit of intelligence they could find an issue at home without a bit of trouble!
Q. What would it be, Mr. President?
The President. Anything in the domestic line. I will meet them on any subject they want, but to try to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States, in the face of the situation with which we are faced, is just as bad as trying to cut the Army in time of war.
Q. On that question we were just kidding.
The President. And that gave me a chance to give you an answer. To try to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States is just as bad in this cold war as it would be to shoot our soldiers in the back in a hot war.
I am fed up with what is going on, and I am giving you the facts as I see them.
read more: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/8078/
malthaussen
(17,217 posts)Those in the "kidding" part of the interview, anyway.
First, he equates the Cold War as a threat equal to a hot war.
Second, he then goes on to suggest that criticism of strategy (or, by extension, the government) in a time of war is treasonous.
Third, he seems to equate Mr McCarthy's attack with an attack on the Foreign Policy of the United States. There is no suggestion that it might be a by-product to what he also acknowledges as basically trying to create an issue to win in the next election cycle.
I'm thinking it is a dangerous line of thought, to suggest that criticism of the government in time of war is treasonous. First, because the definition of "time of war" has become meaningless: what with cold wars, wars on drugs, and wars on terror, the US has been at "war" for most, if not all, of my lifetime, and if we are not to challenge our government and it's strategy when we think they might be mistaken, then what are we pretending to be a democracy for?
After all, are not Mr Trump and his followers making just this sort of argument, when they complain that criticizing the government and accusing it of criminal activity is treasonous?
Now, Mr Truman may have been correct in the specifics of his argument: the McCarthy attack was intended to undermine the State Department as a means to making political capital for the Opposition. Just as Mr Trump et al may be incorrect in his evaluation that accusing the government of crimes it is, actually, committing is treasonous (although he is certainly correct in saying that it serves to undermine said government -- in "time of war," no less). Where they both err, IMO, is in trying to establish the principle that it is ipso-facto treasonous to question the Government and its Foreign Policy in time of war.
-- Mal
bigtree
(86,005 posts)...as I understand it, his comments were limited to McCarthy's red-baiting.
Interesting accusing Truman of some sort of anti-sedition in this. He was specifically stating that McCarthy's attacks on State Dept. employees accusing them without proof of Communist sympathies was an attempt to disrupt his foreign policy. That's certainly one possibility and it wasn't improper at all for Truman to point that out, considering McCarthy's attacks were centered on Truman's efforts to negotiate with other countries at the time.
You've taken the history behind this and confused it into your anti-trump narrative.
here's a little something more of Truman to reflect on:
On December 29, 1952, less than one month before Truman left the presidency, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. came to pay his respects to the President. Schlesinger reported that Truman "was very cheerful, scrubbed and natty." But all was not well in the mind of the President, who was much concerned about the state of civil liberties in the country. He told Schlesinger that he had feared "hysteria" of the kind that always occurred after wars. Truman cited the Citizen Genêt episode after the Revolutionary War, the rise of the Ku Klux Klan after the Civil War, and the A. Mitchell Palmer raids after World War I. He hoped the country might avoid it this time, a reference to the ongoing Korean War. However, the concerns about McCarthyism that Truman expressed to Schlesinger were nowhere to be found in the Presidents rather upbeat farewell address less than three weeks later.
Truman met with Schlesinger at least two more times during his post-presidential years. One of these conversations took place in Boston in March 1954, and Joseph McCarthy dominated their discussion. Truman told Schlesinger that he had completed a monograph on the subject of "periods of hysteria in American history." In Trumans mind, these periods lasted for about 8 to 10 years.
The examples he used included were the times between the Alien and Sedition Acts to the Aaron Burr trial, Reconstruction through the 1876 election, and Palmer raids during World War I through the 1928 campaign.
Truman guessed, therefore, that McCarthyism would "burn itself out" by 1956 to 1960 (McCarthys influence waned in the wake of his controversial hearings conducted with the Army in 1954, and McCarthy himself died in 1957). Schlesinger was struck by Trumans affirmation, expressed "both touchingly and impressively," of his faith in the decency of the American people and their ability to bounce back from spasm of fear and panic.
During his lectures at Columbia University on April 29, 1959, former President Truman placed McCarthyism within the broader cycles of "witch-hunting" and hysteria that he believed had beset the United States since its earliest history. Specific examples included the Salem witch trials of the 1690s, the Alien and Sedition Act of 1800, and the Anti-Masonic movement of the 1830s.
"There are periods," he told the students, "in which some demagogue can direct attention to something thats absolutely good and harmless and make something out of it so he can stir people up for his own welfare and aggrandizement. Weve just had that recently. We just got through this period of McCarthyism, which was one of the worst that this country ever suffered from." He warned students that they, too, would face future demagogues.
read: https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2009/spring/truman-history.html
related:
Truman Library: President Trumans Confrontation with McCarthyism
https://trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/mccarthyism/index.php
erronis
(15,341 posts)One of my close relatives was in Truman's cabinet at the end of his presidency and I remember tales of terrors of the witch hunts and McCarthy in particular.
A particularly telling statement from HST:
Same for the current russian "government" and the like-minded individuals holding the US government in hostage to this foreign power.
malthaussen
(17,217 posts)"To try to sabotage the foreign policy of the United States is just as bad in this cold war as it would be to shoot our soldiers in the back in a hot war."
Now, the argument hinges on whether "sabotage" is equatable to "criticize." I'll agree that could be a stretch. And Mr Truman may not have intended his remarks to be construed as a general principle, but to refer very specifically to what was an overt attempt to sabotage the foreign policy of the US. (Although I don't think Mr McCarthy was trying to do that, really, he was just looking for something that would make a good issue to benefit his own re-election and the influence of his Party -- in which he appears to have had some short-term success, although what other factors contributed to it are open to debate). But Mr Truman is the one here making the argument that Mr McCarthy's actions amount to an attack on the foreign policy of the United States. Since I expect Mr McCarthy, if anything, wanted stronger measures than were currently being displayed, it is hard for me to see that as equating to an attack on foreign policy, unless we stipulate that anything that undermines confidence is an attack. Since anything that criticizes must necessarily undermine confidence, it's not a great leap to see a suggestion that criticism = an attempt to sabotage, hence treason.
Mr Truman may not have intended this (I strongly doubt he did), but I think it could be taken in that direction (and has been taken in that direction, ad nauseam, for most of my lifetime).
A problem does arise, though: when actions are clearly intended to undermine and attack policy (in time of war or otherwise), with the intent to undermine and attack the US itself. But how can such clarity be known? After all, those who protested the Vietnam war were accused of just such undermining and attacking, and well-deserved, since that's exactly what we were doing. But the undermining and attacking were not with intent to injure the US; in fact, they were done with the intent of strengthening the US and living up to our principles (well, where they were done with any intent higher than personally avoiding the draft). Similarly, the investigation of Mr Trump and his minions are not with the intent to destroy the US, but to preserve it.
But do you think Mr McCarthy hoped to destroy the US? His actions, IMO, were driven by cynicism and expediency, for purpose of deriving partisan political advantage; any attempt to ascribe greater significance to them would require evidence that has not, as yet, come to light. In short, I think Mr Truman was making more of Mr McCarthy's actions than they warranted, and possibly for the very same reasons of cynicism and expediency that were motivating Mr McCarthy. He would have been more to the point, IMO, if he had condemned Mr McCarthy for acting to lower the political discourse, undermine the principles of decency and rule of law that underpin our government, and subvert the democratic process by tactics of lies, innuendo, and hearsay, than to equate it with an attack on US Foreign Policy; but he couldn't do that since it would have been perceived as a personal attack on Mr McCarthy. Which is probably why he didn't send the draft letter in the first place.
-- Mal
And no, I'm not going to explain that comment, so don't ask.
Many of your posts seem to be negative.
meh
Progressive dog
(6,920 posts)He made up evidence to accuse specific people of crimes.
The Soviets blockaded Berlin to starve it out and Truman airlifted supplies, rather than respond to the Soviet act of war with war. I'll give him a pass on equating the attempt to starve and freeze civilians, in order to seize Berlin,as equal to a hot war.
Guilded Lilly
(5,591 posts)Malodorous dead horse and fatuous in any sentence referring to the Cretin and the wretched Republican rabble.
Thank you for this excerpt!
Wonder if the last paragraph rings true in today's context....
LakeArenal
(28,847 posts)Not entirely in Wisconsin either.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)UTUSN
(70,744 posts)duforsure
(11,885 posts)Instead of how Ryan and McConnell are now doing. Truman will always be remembered for that, and these people now will always be remembered for their lack of leadership skills they have, and how they are nothing but liars , and Russian propagandists. Disgusting.
malthaussen
(17,217 posts)... in what is a "draft" reply, apparently never sent, he did little to effectively combat McCarthyism and the Red Scare, and his party lost not only the White House, but their Senate majority in the ensuing 1952 elections.
In the more immediate term, the Democrats lost 28 seats in the House and 5 seats in the Senate in the 1950 midterms. They did manage to retain control of both bodies, however.
How much these results were due to Mr McCarthy's politicking, and how much they were due to the Korean War and other issues, is open to debate, of course.
I like Mr Truman, but this was not his finest hour.
-- Mal
kairos12
(12,874 posts)Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)He's complaining to Angela Lansbury about how people think he's an idiot because he can't name a number of communists in the State Department, while pouring Heinz Catsup. The next scene is, "Fifty-seven communists in the State Department..."
BigmanPigman
(51,630 posts)Someone left the DVD (in perfect condition and in the original case) outside of Trader Joe's last May and I re-did it with my printer, glue stick and X-actor knife and made an identical one with Hillary, The Moron and Putin called The Russian Candidate. I was an illustrator so it was spot on identical, even the font and tint of the colors of the red and blue. I gave it to my sister and she didn't even notice to wasn't the original one until the next day. Malcolm Nance used a similar one for the cover of his book The Plot to Hack America.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)what we do about him.
But it's unlikely we'd know that. The MSM trashed him big-time all through 2 terms, spreading their own blind, chummy misconceptions as strongly as they could, including all the big names we look back on as heroes now. And he'd still be Democrat now as then, so deja vu all over again.
On the plus side, a solid majority of the electorate ignored their trashing and reelected him enthusiastically.
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(108,221 posts)Volaris
(10,274 posts)We wouldn't need to change a thing (except switching the words senator to congressman).
Brother Buzz
(36,467 posts)Hekate
(90,828 posts)BobTheSubgenius
(11,571 posts)Although, these days, the correspondence would be flowing the opposite way.
burrowowl
(17,648 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)Motley13
(3,867 posts)but trump is not far behind.
Wisconsin should get rid of a few more of their politicians, Ryan comes to mind
AZ8theist
(5,498 posts)That first put the plaque on his desk that said "The Buck Stops Here"?
( I could be wrong, pls correct me if so..)
One wonders what the pumpkin headed imbecile today would have on his desk.....
"I don't own nuthing"
"The buck is everywhere but here"
"I'm not to blame, THEY did it"
"I'm innocent, Hillarys E-MAILS!!"
fucking man-baby coward. How I lust for 5 mins alone in a room with "it"...
packman
(16,296 posts)Truman had his faults, but he was blunt, honest and to the point. Of course, those were the days when - regardless of party affiliation - you had a degree of trust in politicians.
bucolic_frolic
(43,306 posts)A stable genius is a terrible waste of tweeting
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)...haven't seen it in a while. People should use it more.
MustLoveBeagles
(11,636 posts)Give him hell Harry.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)AmericanActivist
(1,019 posts)syringis
(5,101 posts)I wonder what he would have said to Trump...