from fellow liberals and democrats too, not recently so much but yes.

For instance right after Putin stole the election I said (elsewhere) that he was a murderous dictator. The usual suspects of this place I post at gave me shit, the rightwingers, natch.

But, I had push-back from several of my liberal friends, they refused to call Putin a murderous dictator, they would not go there.

Amazing.

I remind them of this constantly.

Just like I remind ANY American, here or elsewhere, that NONE of this had to happen. And then I point out how unhelpful phrases like "I will have to hold my nose and vote for..." ARE

Let's end the holding of noses and nominate really exciting, loving, good candidates.

When we do, we win.

Your comment implies Hillary was NOT that, which is an attack of Hillary.

That is why primaries that allow voters to pick the candidate are so important.

If voters have confidence in the primary process, if voters know that they with other voters have picked the candidate, or believe that they and other voters have picked the candidate, then they will support that candidate in the general election.

The primary process is essential to gaining support for the winning candidate in the election. When party officials allow their loyalties, plans or choices to dominate and to cause supporters of candidates that are not the choice of the party leaderships to think that "the system is rigged" against them, then those in the party who support other candidates will not support the ultimate winner.

That's just human nature. It has nothing to do with Hillary or 2016 other than that many Bernie supporters felt the system was rigged against their candidate.

So making sure there is not just fairness but the overwhelming appearance of fairness in primaries is very important.

responsible for Trump. Lying about Democrats is not the way to go. It’s not rigged to have more voters prefer you because you’ve actually been a committed Democrat working for the party.

If you have the point of view that the Democratic Party needs to change to meet the challenges of today and tomorrow, then may you could feel that the hierarchy leadership of the party rigs the votes so that they can maintain control. I don't know that to be true. You don't know that to be true. But people believe all kinds of strange things.

And part of the job of a politician is to speak to the strange things people believe and deal with them. Because especially in this case, there are so many things that all Democrats believe in and if we focus on those things we all believe in rather than the things we disagree about, we will win in 2018 and 2020. And our winning is very important for our country. Far more important than who is right about whether the 2016 primary was rigged or not.

We have to keep focused on why we need to win in the future.

who make that absurd "the system is rigged" claim.

But Democrats who voted for Bernie often make that argument.

So it is essential that the Democratic Party show no preference with regard to who should win in primaries. Because it can happen that e-mails are stolen and released and freeze supporters of the candidate the Party leaders do not favor read them. That is what happened this year.

Of course, Democrats should vote for Democrats.

I live in California. Thanks to the electoral college, my vote makes no difference. As long as the majority of California voters voted for Hillary, and they did, all California's electoral college votes go and went to Hillary.

Remember. Hillary won 3 million more popular votes than Trump.

She lost because California's votes don't count for much.

I'm in California. My vote didn't really count at all.

helped to cause this nightmare. Period. End of story.

I do not care about their hurt feelings or their ridiculous false claims.

If they want things to improve in this country, the door is open.

As a lone Californian, my vote did not count in any direction.

The electoral college is an anachronism that makes Californians second-class citizens when it comes to electing the president.

You'll have to blame people in states whose electoral college representatives voted for Trump for his "election." He wasn't elected by the people, and certainly not by the people of California.

He was elected by the electoral college -- and it needs to be abolished. We need to amend the Constitution to do it.

I have been told by people from the Midwest, from smaller states in general, that they like the electoral college and it won't be abolished.

No one in California can be blamed for Trump. People who support the electoral college and people in states that voted for Trump are responsible for Trump's election.

since you consider California a "safe" state?

Now we have Trump.

Stay focused, indeed,

Let’s quit with the divisive rhetoric that is all about a losing 2016 strategy of ever more divisive sour grapes because more people preferred the Democrat.

If you promoted not voting for Hillary, then you ushered in Trump. Anyone who is unfazed by Trump can’t really believe in Democratic ideals. That’s more than obvious by now.

Let’s not undermine Democrats, especially in the name of third party propaganda.

Californian votes in the electoral college went for Hillary.

I'm in California. My vote didn't really get counted.

Californians for the most part cannot stand Trump. But we don't matter. Our votes don't really matter that much. As long as the Democrat gets the majority of votes in our state, we have done our part.

excuse for not voting for Hillary. You must know about those Busters. Now we have Trump. It was an overall strategy, not just in California.

I couldn't agree more. I've even said to, myself.

And I think you're spot-on about reminding people of the folly of voting for him because, for one weasely stupid lame-ass reason or another they just somehow couldn't vote for Hillary.

VOTE, DAMMIT! And while you're at it, make damn sure you VOTE DEM, DAMMIT.

It really is up to the winner to make sure everyone is on board and that everyone believes that the system was not rigged.

I still remember, after all these years, the time that a certain person in my class went to the professor in one of my classes and persuaded him not to count the score on a certain exam question that I had prepared for and aced and that she had neglected to prepare for and couldn't answer.

I hang my head in shame when I admit that. But when a person feels that a process or a grade or something is UNFAIR, RIGGED, then they have a feeling of unfairness and refuse to recognize that maybe it was fair and was not rigged.

We have to agree to disagree about the fairness of the 2016 primaries because while you and I may think the primaries were fair, many Bernie supporters do not. And that is why they did not want to vote for her. They felt rebuffed and rejected, and it is up to Hillary and her supporters to accept and make a big show of accepting and joining again with those who did not support Hillary.

It's a matter of overcoming one's own disappointment and accepting the fact that others have their own disappointments to overcomes.

It's important that we be united if we are to continue to win in 2018 and 2020. The dissension and the blame associated with past elections just has to be given up and stowed away while we join to win in 2018 and 2020.

This is absolutely necessary if we are to win in 2018 and 2020. I know it is difficult, but it has to be done.

The nominee presents her/his platform and case and the voters decide. It's just too bad that too many people think a nominee must meet all their needs and that they must be wooed.

You vote for the nominee best able to do the job. IOW, The Democrat.

Voters are adults. They should act that way.

that I sort of underestimated the extent of the horrors of the Trump (mis-)Administration. I mean, I knew that it would be bad but it's even worse. I'm happy that the Resistance to many things has been quite strong and we've definitely won some victories but all we can do right now is staunch the bleeding. I will be utterly depressed and demoralized if we can't win big at the polls in November.

They are the enemy !!!!!!!

EVIL FUCKING LIARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Last edited Mon Feb 12, 2018, 01:53 PM - Edit history (1)

who identify as GOPers be changed? The way a political party is destroyed is by convincing people that some other party better represents them, as happened in the 19th century with the Whig party. It was formed to oppose the Jacksonian Democrats and managed to elect a couple of mediocre presidents, but it lasted only 20 years and fell apart over the growing slavery controversy. When it regrouped it became the Republican party, which in those days were the anti-slavery "liberals." If today's GOP is somehow destroyed, what will its remnants turn into? Will its hard-core supporters join an existing third party? Form a new one? How many ex-Republicans will reject the racism and general awfulness the party represents now?

I sure wish I knew.

As cathartic as posts like the OP might be, we are going to have to find a way to make inroads with those in the middle if we expect to grow. Demonizing half the nation is like wrestling with a pig. Or an elephant.

we going to "destroy" anything? I don't believe in violence and if it did get violent we'd be destroying ourselves.

direction. People vote for the middle because they are afraid of trying new things.

If we present candidates with good, new ideas who inspire the confidence of voters in the idea that we as a nation can do new, good things, we will win.

Why would a voter who has been propagandized to believe that the conservative solutions to things are what we need vote for a Democrat when a Republican candidate is available?

We are either the Party of new ideas that respond responsibility to the new challenges of our time (like climate change for example) or we lose to the Party that presents itself as the reliable, responsible party of always doing the same things we did in the past and avoiding the new and that means ignoring new problems that have arisen because we always did, do and plan to do things as we have always done them.

And, of course, we see with the Republican budget deal that although they present themselves as the reliable Party of the past and making America great again (although our country has changed and we need to make America great today not yesterday), they are not at all equipped to deal with the pressing issues of our day. We have breaking bridges and a decrepit energy system -- and they want promise more of the same -- and tax breaks for those who plan to help them keep their promise.

Meanwhile, technology is changing everything, but we still back Democrats who can't or won't see that middle candidates (meaning conservative candidates) are going to throw our country back into a past that does not accept the new technology.

No. I disagree with you. We need candidates who can talk about the challenges of our time and of the future, embrace the technological and human responses that will work and that we need as a nation and move us into the future. It's not about making America great again. That focuses on the past. It is about making America great now and in the future.

however, reaching toward sthe middle means recruiting. If we are vile to the other side, we will rely on our own procreation and indoctrination to further the party rather than persuading adults.

I respect your position, especially as it reflects this site as a whole.

And the first heart to change is one's own.

Never expect the other person to have your own level of maturity and wisdom about these things.

When we reach out with acceptance and love to others, they return that to us (unless they are mentally ill, sociopaths, etc.). That is the nature of the human heart.

Even if the blame is merited, even if we have been wronged, we have to do what the US and Senator Fulbright did for the Germans and Japanese, etc. after WWII. We have to reach out and heal others. In that process, we heal ourselves.

That's how the world works. It's hard at first, but the only way we will unite and win in 2018 and 2020 is if the Hillary supporters open their hearts to those who may have voted for Bernie or some other candidate. It's part of being the supporter of the winning side. It's up to the winners to show grace and reach out.

May seem unfair, but it is what works in real life.

Reciprocity is in order - and long overdue

"Six feet down."

and of the young who think and act old.

I hate to be so ageist, but it's the truth.

Young people tend to support Democrats.

But then, that is why we Democrats tend to be unable sometimes to join together when we have divisions or disagreements. We tend to have more the passions of the young, the temperament of the young -- to our detriment.

The repubs are clearly a party that supports the interests of the wealthy and corporations. Problem is, that there are too few in this group to win elections, so they had to find wedge issues to recruit more voters. They don't have any strong feelings on any of these issues, but know which ones to pick to rile up and divide people. Then they construct Faux News to whip up the divisions, gerrymander critical districts, and they are able to get majorities. Bottom line is that those in charge have to sense of morality, and will say whatever they need to in order to win.

The make America great AGAIN gives them away.

They don't want to move into the future. They don't want to think about what is needed now to prepare for that future.

It's a shame.

We need to talk about the challenges of the future and how Democrats will prepare our country to meet them. Higher population, climate change, the challenge of China and its huge population and industrial development. South America and all the promise and possibility of that part of our American hemisphere.

There are so many positive things awaiting us in the future, but also so many challenges. And we Democrats have the answers for growth, peace, development and meeting the difficult challenges the future will bring.

Republicans are the party of the past. We are the party of the future, the party of progress, the party of promise.

That is the message we need to present and sell. Shouldn't be difficult since it is the truth.

divisive rhetoric usually promoted by third party types. We should not be handing them material by lying about Democrats.

Anyone who didn’t vote for the Democrat can’t be a credible or reliable voice for Democratic values and ideals. Vultures like Trump prey on the vulnerable who believe the lies and distortions. Just recently, Kelly Anne Conway was spouting some familiar tripe—Democrats don’t have any accomplishments and are out of touch. That sounds very familiar. We should not be contributing to the Republican’s lies and ugliness. All it took was 75,000 people nationwide to brainwash.

That 3 million vote margin that should have put Hillary in the White House? A lot, if not all, of that came from California.

If Californian's votes counted the same or as much as the votes of people in other states, Hillary would be president. I think Al Gore would have been too, but I'm not sure about that.

Hillary actually won.

How I personally voted, how Democrats voted in California, -- irrelevant to the outcome.

Voters in other states? Their votes made a difference. Whether I personally voted for Hillary or not is, as I said, irrelevant.

not voting for Hillary. News comes from California, and contributing to an overall strategy to deny Hillary the White House is why we have Trump. There really is no excuse for that losing strategy being promoted no matter what state you are from. If you didn’t vote for the Democrat, then that directly resulted in Trump.

It is not irrelevant that you did not vote for Hillary. She was the Democratic candidate, so it is directly relevant. We should not be promoting losing strategies.

It was the Republican Party my older relatives (Now deceased) loved and supported. That party honored honesty, honor, decency, and genuine patriotism. That party is dead, gone, ashes, something consigned to the history books.

Today’s Republican Party is an amoral, corrupt, lawless collection of crooks, liars, demagogues, ideologies and thugs that has drifted so far from the traditions it held up to forty five years ago that it now resembles an English-speaking, American flag-waving version of some of Latin America’s worst oligarchical political parties.

The best thing today’s Republican Party can do for the American republic and America’s Citizens is to fall apart and stay dead.

Also, northeastern republicans were always different then southern republicans. When it was carried by northeastern republicans, I could understand their motivations.

you are not going to find it, I think most everyone here agrees with you on this one.

The only little fight you will get from me is that "not all republicans are", just the majority, the rest of them are confused and ignorant.

The "Russian solution" of a century ago didn't exactly work out in the end. The "French solution" has had better results but they, too, now seem to be drifting away from égalité and fraternité.

Because every time they come to power, environmental regulations are gutted, climate change treaties are reneged, and fossil fuel consumption skyrockets. Sorry to sound alarmist, but if we have even one more Republican administration, global warming will pass the point of no return for humanity to save itself.

Actual real life nazis, MS-13, religious terrorists, serial killers, serial rapists etc. All worse. You can dislike Republicans, but at least be aware that they aren't running concentration camps. That while some percentage of serial rapists are Republicans, that's not a party platform. I haven't seen Republicans starting a genocide like what happened in Rwanda.

Yes Republicans have objectively bad policies, and yes some of their base are overt racists, but being so blind to assume that's all there is to their base is silly.

death.

Same for other crises that mankind is facing and that Republicans are ignoring.

Yeah it's a very long story. But he fits the demographic of a conservative. He says racist crap around me, is a gun nut, cheated on my mom multiple times, left us when I was born, mentally abusive, hates gays...I can go on.

saying they aren’t! Vile, disgusting, despicable & deplorable! They are all those, and more.😈👿😡

Most of the rest are useful idiots.