there are still others at Democratic underground who still have not accepted that it was a mistake to demand Franken resign without giving him due process.

this that does not hurt Democrats or the party.

We MUST not fall for the bait.

Sen Gillebrand fell for it.

"We are better than them (thuglicans), and must be perfect little angels at all times" credo

She still doesn't GET that Al Franken deserved due process and that you have a self-described pussy grabbing, sexual assaulter (19 women that we know OF whose accused him of sexual misconduct and worse) in the White House, who the GOP and right-winged religious groups say that it's NO biggie that he's this way--as long as the HOG can sit up in a chair, hold a pen and sign their crazy, right-winged legislation which will drag this country right into the pits of HELL with THEM, then they'll also be removing existing laws on the books for women, males, boys or girls who suffer from domestic violence, rape, sexual harassment, sexual abuse etc.

I emailed this same friend two pictures of Fatso-in-Chief signing a woman's breasts, and she said that's HIM and that Franken STILL HAD to go, so that Democrats can have the moral high ground on the issue

Simple as that.

Franken is the one you aren't allowed to criticize.

One end of spectrum.....Rape
Other end of spectrum......off color joke.
And there’s a whole lot of middle ground gray area.

And the problem, of course, is how subjective that is.
Some might think a man laughing and pretending (but not touching) to cup a woman’s breasts is just a silly playing around joke.
Others may think it is a form of sexual harassment.
Context is often very important.

and shame on them for not caring about equal justice for both accuser and accused.

But for all their unfortunate noise, those who reacted that way are a small minority. This smear was being broad-brushed on the entire Democratic Party in an attempt to persuade 200 million registered voters that Democrats were as bad on sexual harassment as Republicans.

This huge smear was also meant ultimately to disillusion many millions of the women voters who expect the Democratic Party to protect their rights. To cost us the nation in 2018 and 2020.

As this progressed, of course, eight accusers became too many, and who knows how many more they would have produced. THAT's why Franken and almost all of his colleagues agreed that he had to resign. It was to keep the trust and support of all who care about women's rights, not just pandering to overreaction by some zealots.

but that Franken touched a womon and had to go

but these days fake overreacting outrage can be created to blanket the nation as easily as inflating the real thing among a few x 10,000.

Forced by Moore to address sexual harassment, the Republican mounted an operation to smear the black and white differences between parties on women's issues into 40 shades of gray in people's minds.

EVERYTHING these days is about 2018, 2020 and the 2020 census.

I will hate it but I will do it. What are my choices? Not vote? Vote for Trump? Vote for an 3rd party, which would just be a vote for Trump?

In my mind, she could work toward redemption by apologizing and asking Franken to be VP.

behind this silliness of her running for president, maybe whoever put the Oprah rumor out there (just attempts to fill a reporting vacuum?), but Joe III could beat her with his ankles tied around his neck.

are looking for someone to tie their dreams to, but lots of people. So if it happens there may well be a lot of energy and enthusiasm.

Only wish they'd seen Hillary as just a bit more like Captain Marvel than their grandmothers or school principals. Not to insult anyone's grandma, I'm one myself, but...!

Oh, well.

He resigned after allegations came out. No religious aspects involves.

Seems we are back to Franken week. Looks a little too coordinated.

The bots are getting to people. Just not who you think. They are working to keep it alive and some are all too happy to join their voices.

are being manipulated? Or that we are wrong to express the anger? Are we the "some are too happy to join their voices"? Be careful whom you accuse.

I'm good. Thanks.

It's exactly what I am implying. The latest Russian bot story was just too simple. It was pathetic on face value. Some simply didn't recognize it and were all to happy to jump on board.

Thanks for the warning, though.

There is one blatant lie in the op and one assumption not borne out in reality. Yet you tell me to "Be careful whom you accuse".

It will always stink.

That has nothing to do with your original reply to me or the fact right wing lies are being pushed by people acting like they are a part of the "left".

It was a rightwing operation at the time, and we knew it. Any reminder of that shameful episode is going to bring back the anger at the unfairness of it, whoever is doing the reminding. It's bad enough to hear the "hush, now, don't speak of it anymore, we must look forward" crap, but to be patronized by being told we don't even have our own anger, that we're being manipulated into it, well that's crap too. And the past tense of stink is stank, by the way.

You seem to be having a conversation with someone else. You aren't replying to or addressing anything I have said.

"And the past tense of stink is stank, by the way."

Correct you are. That's big.

He struck the middle ground by NOT dragging the women through the mud, which now I think he should have done since an apology for creating the wrong impression now equals an admission of guilt to the troglodytes and the useful idiots.

would not be doing anything.

He apologized for his behavior toward women. Why is there this willful blindness that he could possibly be guilty? He's human, not some perfect deity.

Specifically what was done. A gag photo? A waist squeeze.

I believe many with your perspective lack proportionality.

Just like conservatives who equate illegal immigrants or pot smokers with hardened criminals just because all of the acted outside of the law.

he was "pressured" to. I'm going to tell you that amounted to some strongly worded tweets, and probably some private conversations urging him to resign.

He, apparently, couldn't withstand that. That means one of two things: he's not particularly strong, or HE feared there was something in the accusations that could make bad problems for him. Can YOU think of another reason that fits the scenario?

I like Franken. I think he should have stayed for his due process. But HE chose not to.

due process was out the window. That would be like facing a jury in which all of it's members declared you guilty publicly before the trial.

there was no way he could defend himself in that environment while some of his own PEERS were stabbing him in the back

anything from the scum on the right, but for All Franken to have been treated so unfairly by our Party is inexcusable and will remain a shameful blot on the history of our Party as we TRY to stay in a life and death struggle over a Party with PROVEN moral degenerates from top leadership to bottom, goddammit!!! Damn now I'll be thinking of the people who pushed this bullshit accusation and getting more sad at the Party of mine since 72.

All seven (or eight) were interviewed by real news media, 2 wanted to remain anonymous to the public (not the interviewer), the others were quite public.

What the bots did is exactly what's happening now: get people arguing about it. They didn't make up the stories, they just kept it trending and polarizing.

Such a loose definition.

anonymous period. For all we know the anonymous accusers were made up by the interviewers themselves.

They just make everything up.

No one reads the Atlantic Star except on the internet. Besides it has happened before journalist who worked for respected newspapers have made things up in the past just look at the New York Times during the Iraq war.

After the Duke Lacrosse team case. Now I wait until all the facts are known and an investigation is complete before rendering judgement. This is what should have been the case with Al Franken.

It is necessary and super important to give accusers time, a voice and respect. However, not every act of misconduct is the same and not everyone who accuses someone is telling the truth.

not internet rags and blog sections of the Huffington Post and none of Roy Moore's accusers were anonymous.

If you check my post history, I don't think I ever commented on Roy Moore. Nice try though.

Charges of Sexual Harassment/Assault are very serious. Therefore, they need to be treated seriously and investigated fully. Not made into a political issue.

Unfair as it was Franken was becoming a political liability for the Dems.

some strongly worded tweets against him. Maybe some people spoke to him in private and urged him to resign. And he did.

It was his choice. As I say below, he should have stayed and had his due process and thrown trump(R)'s accusers in the face of anyone who complained. But he didn't.

He decided. IMO his opinion was a bad one and he should have stayed, but he decided.

Took the bullet for the team so to speak. But in the end it was all about political considerations and optics.

I like Franken. He should not have resigned. He should have waited for due process and thrown trump(R)'s accusers in the face of anyone who complained.

But he DID resign. If he was not strong enough to withstand strongly worded tweets from other Senators, then he did the right thing.

Moving on.

I fully support the #MeToo movement.

HE resigned. Nothing more was "done to" him than some strongly worded tweets and probably some private conversations.

I like Franken. I think he should have stayed for his due process. He was in a good position to do so, and could easily waited it out and thrown trump(R)s accusers in the face of anyone who gave him a hard time about it.

HE chose not to. It appears HE fell for the Al Franken smear, too.

so that must mean he knows he's guilty! is ridiculous. The people making it are either utterly ignorant or have an agenda.

reason there was? Because truly, I can't see it.

Agenda? Stating Franken's action is an agenda now. Ok. Have fun with that.

Right. That's how the world works. Like a reality show.

to resign when he was in a good position not to do so?

mud for a couple weeks, there'd have been far less need to resign. Big damage already done.

NO, of course, he should not have stayed for "due process" against prurient, sensationalist charges by as many women as the GOP might have produced to drag it out, during which he would have been totally unable to establish he didn't grab butts and stick his tongue in unwilling mouths.

And even though our senators would have handled them all with kid gloves, including Hannity's Tweeden, they would all have been attacked for victim shaming anyway. After all, how WOULD he deny asking a woman to meet him in a toilet stall without implying she was a liar and having her fawned over and ripped to shreds in every medium the modern era provides? And more to the point, without putting that picture and many others in the minds of 200 million viewers as it's all given the 24/7 treatment for at least a couple weeks?

Ridiculous. If anything, Hillary's life should have taught us that in politics the allegation is the crime and that for voters perception is reality.

This year EVERYTHING is about the 2018 midterms, 2020, and the 2020 census. This was a potentially devastating attack on the party's image that they were able to fend off by drawing a strong line and putting the party firmly on the right side of it.

as fast as the GOP put them up.

Trump(R) is managing to do it. Franken is a lot smarter than trump(R), to say the least. He should have stuck it out. And he could have. He chose not to.

whatever it'd take to stick it out had he chosen to. Trump's strength that he could shoot someone down in the street or finger-rape women and his trumpsters would hold firm (some fine with believing, most just refusing to) is not one that would extend to Democrats, of course.

But we won and the Republicans lost this battle, so i don't think I'd care to redo in hopes of keeping Senator Franken, and I've always liked him. But I believe we really are in a war for the future of our country, and the biggest concern with casualties for me is how replaceable they are.

The taking out of Hillary was an enormous, devastating loss. She wasn't replaceable. Franken's loss is already being covered just fine. What happened to him is very regretful, but he handled it responsibly and honorably, and I doubt he's lost even one real friend over this.

It was about the citizens of Minnesota and not his own political career.

as big in its day, and McCain went on for decades after that.

He was the son and grandson of admirals, a genuine war hero, dontcha know, who periodically referenced his Vietnam captivity in case anyone was in danger of forgetting. He carefully cultivated the media, and that went a looong way. He had a pedigree. He was a player.

Al Franken was a wiseguy comedian, an upstart in politics, who could skewer the so-called serious people with his wit, and call them out for the fools that they are. As likable as all his colleagues rushed to say he was afterward, he wasn't of the body.

indication that if Senator Gillibrand ran for President in 2020, it would have a polarizing effect among Democrats, which usually isn't a good thing in a candidate.

They allow for no nuance. Accusations should be taken seriously but thoroughly investigated.

Time to move on.

When I see someone, anyone on DU tell us that we must wait until all investigations are complete and final prior to pointing our fingers at Trump's own peccadilloes, then I'll believe this consistency of sentiment and narrative sincere rather than merely a cover.

Maybe on that non-existent thread, someone will even call the credibility of accusers into question by arguing against or petulantly mocking a point no one on DU has ever made: "false rape accusations never happen..." "all accusation s must be believed" and other unsupported allegations.




But I doubt a rational consistency is the real goal-- merely good window dressing for more bias.