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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Man Who Claimed to Invent Bitcoin Is Being Sued for $10 Billion
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The lawsuit (embedded below) admits that the amount of bitcoins at issue must be determined at trialbasically, Kleiman isnt sure how much is really at stake. But Kleimans lawyers have Wrights own statements to go from, from which they extrapolated that, in their view, Wright owes Ira Kleiman up to one million bitcoins, which is the full amount of bitcoins allegedly mined by Wright and Kleiman. Ultimately, the lawsuit is seeking somewhere between 300,000 and 1.1 million bitcoins.
Notably, the lawsuit makes no claim on whether Kleiman or Wright, or both of them (or neither of them) actually created Bitcoin. It does, however, allege that the pair were in communication in March 2008the Bitcoin white paper was published in October 2008and that Dave told his brother Ira in 2009 that he was creating digital money with a wealthy foreign man, i.e. Craig. The suit alleges that Kleiman and Wright and two others conducted a Bitcoin transaction on January 12, 2009, nine days after the very first block of Bitcoin transaction data was created by Satoshi Nakamoto, the pseudonym used by Bitcoins inventor.
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The lawsuit alleges that after Kleimans death, Wright emailed Louis Kleiman, Daves nonagenarian father, and claimed that he and Dave were two of the three key people behind the invention of Bitcoin. The lawsuit alleges this is the first time the Kleimans had heard of Daves supposed involvement in the creation of Bitcoin. The lawsuit says that Wright then sent over several documents showing that the recently-deceased Kleiman had transferred ownership of W&Ks assets to Wright. However, the lawsuit alleges, these documents were backdated and fraudulent, and that Kleimans signature was forged with a computer font.
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/3k74qj/craig-wright-is-being-sued-for-10-billion-dave-kleiman
Which shows how much bitcoin was a Ponzi scheme from the beginning - give the first people loads of them, then hype it to get those following to pay more.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,385 posts)The inflated prices paid by those who join later form the profits of those in on it early on, without a genuine increase in value being involved.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)1) there's no 'con-man' running the grift, in fact these guys were unknown for many years.
2) there's no 'skimming' by the grifter going on
3) there's no falsification of records
4) early 'investors' in ponzi schemes end up screwed like later investors in most cases, it's only the grifter running the con who actually profits if he pulls it off.
"Value" is whatever people think it is. Fiat money has no intrinsic value and in fact currencies crash like in Venezuela w/o being Ponzi schemes. Gold certainly 'costs' more that it's really 'worth' in terms of utility. So does a $10M Original Monet.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,385 posts)1) it appears there was, from this story. That the conman/men were unknown is pretty essential for a grift.
2) it appears there was, from this story
3) the hiding of who stood to gain from the inflation, and the anonymous 'creator', is damn close to falsification. And the accusation here is falsification.
4) Not necessarily.
The point is that it looks like bitcoin was started to enrich those in on it, at the expense of the gullible who thought they'd get rich too if they joined in. So it's a Ponzi scheme.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)Digital currencies in general have more akin to a ponzi scheme than its backers would like to admit. It really is an interesting combination of securities fraud-like offerings, common fraud and a ponzi scheme.
The security fraud comes into play in that the promoters are "selling" coins at an ICO. The SEC is slowly catching up with technology, but I expect legal ICO's to be largely eliminated very soon. There is also similarity to "pump and dump" schemes going on. Early promoters of a coin get their's cheap, then talk up and promote the market, driving prices up. They then dump their coins on the same market.
The ponzi scheme-ish part is new "miners" or buyers on the market investing money to acquire new coins, then convincing subsequent buyers/miners to keep it going. The early miners get the bulk of the profits, as they got in at low value, and a piece of every transaction goes to them for processing the sales (not all miners do this, but almost all the early ones do as it is lucrative and a good use of already paid-for hardware). Admittedly not a direct comparison, but there are similarities.
In the end, most coins are nothing but a big con (IMHO). Bitcoin, to me at least, seems to be somewhat of a dead end because of its ultra-high transaction costs. Not that it won't be used in the future as a hedge or store of value, but it is fundamentally unable in its current form to replace normal currency.
Could another take its place as the big-dog, solving many of its problems? Maybe. We will see.
Generic Brad
(14,276 posts)You did say it was the opposite of a Ponzi scheme.
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Storing all this data on server farms is an expensive proposition. And they don't seem shy about claiming first dibs on generated power:
http://www.wweek.com/news/business/2018/02/21/bitcoin-miners-are-flocking-to-oregon-for-cheap-electricity-should-we-give-them-a-boost/
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)hueymahl
(2,510 posts)Last I checked, it was around $18 for each transfer, most of which is the cost of electricity to do the blockchain computations.
MisterProton
(56 posts)As Segwit keeps being implemented, and certainly as the Lightning network unfolds, costs should drop even further.
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#3m
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)I'm not in that market, but it does fascinate me.
Initech
(100,107 posts)hunter
(38,334 posts)He was referring to the way digital currencies like Bitcoin are used to buy drugs like synthetic opioid fentanyl.
In an "ask me anything" session on news website Reddit, he said that the anonymity of digital currencies meant they were linked to terrorist funding and money laundering.
Some criticised him, saying he was ill-informed about the technology.
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http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43239781
The energy costs of crypto-currencies are equally disturbing, killing possibly more people in indirect ways such as air pollution and climate change.
I figure bitcoin is now the greatest ponzi-pyramid scheme ever devised.
Creating it anonymously and selling it to shady people like drug dealers and tax evaders was brilliant, as it further insulated those standing to make the greatest profits from investigation.
If Wright really is the creator he's an idiot for confessing to it. But it's also likely he's a useful idiot, a fall guy for other agents.
In some senses Bernie Madoff became the unwitting fool and fall guy of his own scheme. Banks knew something was off about Madoff but they were getting a cut of the action so they didn't investigate further.