delivered to homes where minorities live. Everything after that FACT might be speculation.

was left by the side of the road and activated by a tripwire. Could have harmed anyone.

The police asked for the bomber(s) to send a message and the bomber(s) responded with a weapon of increased sophistication. Just because these last two victims weren't black or Latino doesn't mean the perps didn't target them or that they weren't hoping to signal something else entirely.

I just hope the FBI catches them!

Fair enough.

Last edited Mon Mar 19, 2018, 07:08 PM - Edit history (1)

....proud of the "fact???" that progressives didn't engage in the stupid stereotyping that the other side did so frequently. Over the last few days I've begun to seriously doubt that I had good reason for this. But I've been watching carefully, and the nutty "fuck them all" rampage I've been paying so much attention to is really confined to a few threads. There's pretty much good, interesting stuff on DU. I was losing sigh of it because I felt an obligation to stand up to this kind of craziness.

They just have...uh...white skin and...economic anxiety...yeah that's it!

And I'm pretty sure that isn't even the "other side" of resuming the 'final solution', forming some sort of psycho inbred ethno-state, or thinking a total war with a religion that has a billion and a half people in it would be "nifty", just IMHO.

i think that's what we should shoot for.

I haven't seen many Nazi or KKK sympathizers on this board. I think we pretty much all agree on our values. There is some debate on priorities and that debate is needed. But a discussion that doesn't include a strategy for taking back full control of government is a diversion from the task at hand.

Other instead of try to understand each other.

The person who controls the Presidency can decide when where and why the National Guard gets deployed. That Guard can defy George Wallace trying to block the entryway to a school or it can throw freedom riders into jail for interfering with "lawful commerce".

Meanwhile tens of thousands of people live and die based on legislation that passes or is stopped from passing. The full repeal of Obamacare was stopped by one vote in the U.S. Senate. Elections do matter even when hatred remains rampant in large sectors of the nation..

If people decide to no longer trust society, lawsand those who make them stop mattering. Unless you want a complete dissolution of society, we need to constantly speak to those who disagree with us.

if he/she was on fire.

And ignored, the stronger their hatreds will grow. You may have interacted with white supremacists far more often than you think, but they know you wouldnt talk to them if you knew they were white supremacists...

Last edited Mon Mar 19, 2018, 05:21 PM - Edit history (2)

being ghosted in Trump's America, you focus on reaching out to white supremacists. Deal?

As a matter of fact, an economically anxious Nazi fuck recently spray-painted a swastika on the wall of a synagogue my friend regularly attends. I think I'll give my friend a call - I'll reach out to him, the authorities can "reach out" to the Nazi fuck.

Because they still fail to recognize other human beings as people, your reaching out to them can serve as a reminder of that fact.

It makes them feel TERROR. That's the point.

Because they dont believe the people they terrorize are people. And if they are not people, they cannot feel. The only way they can know that is if somebody lets them know.

But don't even THINK of trying to bring them anywhere near me or my party. And stop telling me that I'm supposed to put up with you or anyone else trying to force them on me.

But you do need to acknowledge that they too are human, regardless of how unhuman they are behaving. Trying to pretend they dont exist isnt going to change the fact that they do. And one way or another we are going to have to acknowledge them.

And for the record, I am "knocking myself out."

don't acknowledge my humanity.

There's a big difference between trying to teach racist terrorist to change their ways and inviting them to join your political party.

Just Jm Dandy

Very fine people may exercise poor judgment sometimes - but they are very fine people and we must respect that

warm in the tent, it's not a good idea to invite the herd in.

I'm....aaahh never mind.

to find better ways to destroy them.

And there is a black man who befriended KKK members and got many of them to leave. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be put at risk even in a hundred battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.

Thus, what is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy.
We failed miserably in this tactic.

These are the people who were put into a bubble of false information, stoking their psychological predistributions. Some will come to their senses I believe. Love trumps hate. Sure, there are those so full of hate that they can't be reached. But I am increasingly concerned about the psychological warfare used to put their ideologies into action.
Trump and corporate fascists are responsible for picking at the scabs of division.

And have helped to pull them out from that.

Similar with people who fell under the Nazi interest stuff and found their way out of it.

But hey, pure dismissiveness is a wonderful liberal trait.

come to their senses. Can you prove that?

It's semantic disagreement here...I prefer some rather than "a lot".

It should NOT be the strategy of a political party and that includes substantial numbers of minorities in its base.

...with a swinging fist.

Nt

When the majority can be rehabbed when introduced into a loving environment. These people need to be shown the light. We can either be the bigger people or let the culture continue.

Don't you think?

There isn't. Both can be trained and untrained. History tells us that. The whole point of Cambridge Analyitica was to exploit this fact... And it worked.

People really can't help the environments they are living in. Many of them lack the critical thinking skills to get themselves out or to even realize how wrong they are.

We are a product of our enviroment. Our schools purposely keep people dumb. Can the few who got out really blame the ones who didn't? The only thing we can do is lead by example. Even if they are constantly nipping at our feet.

If we are solely a product of our environment I should be a fox news/hate radio redneck fascist racist Trump republican scumbag and I assure you, I am not!!!

I'm an old white male working class, High school dropout(GED), Christian, gun owner, military veteran, wage slave till the day I die, WTF am I not a faithful MAGA asswipe then?

I don't hate people because of the color of their skin, that's why! I'm not a fuckin nazi lover either! My daddy fought those filth in WW2 he was OG antifa! And I have much pride in him for that!

You are not in their isolated bubble. The majority of these people would be completely different if they were raised in loving, non prejudice well to do home. Hell the majority would be different if fox news was never created. You can call B.S. all you want but its human nature.

That's a good one. If you knew me and where I came from you would never say I came from a well to do family or that I'm in one now LOL

But you have no way of knowing that so yeah. It made me laugh though!

My parents never taught us to hate a person based on the color of their skin, I'll give you that.

I said the majority of racist people wouldn't be racist if their drunk poor dad wasn't around to beat it into them. You know I'm right. Most racist aren't inherently bad. Just ignorant.
I'm the baby of 9. My racist dad had more influence over all my older brothers and they all have racist tendicies. I was raised much later and more by my mom and dont have a racist bone in my body. Of course there are offbeat examples but when looking at societal problems I like to step back and try to look at things as a whole.

At the age of 18 to 21 then it's all on you.

If they choose to continue to be a racist hater or a hundred other evil things, its all on them!

They chose it so fuck the deplorables that are adults. They are scum to me and not worth trying to 'understand' or sympathize with that's for damn sure!

When everyone else around is saying how right it is?
Look just because you and I might know algebra doesn't give us the right to put down the guy who's parents taught him 2+2=5 and has never had the chance to even open an algebra book.
Since we have the knowledge its our responsibility to teach. You might see racism as pure hate but I see it as a flaw.
So according to you was all of Germany was just racist scum or did they fall into a trance by people exploiting their fears?

They can choose to bury their heads in Fox news/drudge/Breitbart/freakrepublic.

Or they can choose Democratic Underground/Daily KOS/Rachel Maddow, to name a few.

It's a choice we all make as adults everyday.

They make their choice everyday, only they can change it IMO.

In many ways we are ahead of our time. You say you are christian? See but I feel I am ahead of you in denouncing organized religion. Tribleism and religion are both just about deep seeded human fears. People are just naturally afraid of the unknown. Some people have a real fear of other cultures.
I can say hey Christians. Look at the internet at all of this stuff that disproves god. But I doubt you would have anything to do with that right?
We as humans are still pretty close to animals and progressing just means realising we are not perfect and have many flaws. Some of us can cover those flaws better then others given how we were raised or our overall intelligence.

I follow Jesus Christ, not some republican mega church con man.

Dr Martin Luther King was a Christian preacher. The Reverend Ralph Abernathy marched for justice at his side as did many other Christians like John Lewis and Jewish rabbis.

I think your tribalism is showing now.

You obviously don't understand Tribleism.
First, there are no deep human atheist beliefs. Its something you learn through observation.
Second, not many atheists to follow in America. Kind of a nomad thing.
Third, not believing in something doesn't put you in any category. Should I say we are in the tribe of Not flat earthers?

Why would we identify not being part of a miniscule group? Labels do have a purpose so why muddy the waters? If the majority of the people are outside your bubble there is probably a reason they label you.

Play with them.

I don't know what magical day and age you all think humans are living in. Look around the world. They obviously haven't got it figured out yet. Seriously still mostly territorial, selfish, lying animals that prey to sky fairies and believe in ghosts

That only have value because we agree that they have value.

(We also kill ourselves through overworking and not taking sick days for these same green pieces of paper.)

As we kill each other over imaginary border lines.

As we kill each other over artificial racial and ethnic designations.

As "outsiders" who defy norms and expectations over constructed gender rules and roles are killed and made into unpeople through forced surgeries at birth, conversion therapy, violence, and more.

And... There are also those who don't kill and wouldn't even think about it. People of different religions, different colors, different nations, different economic backgrounds, different sexual identities, etc. come together. As much as the horrors I have seen in the past many years, I have also seen things that give me hope, why I am still an idealist. It's why there is no excuse. I am willing to reach out to former Trump supporters, question is, will they reach back and also reach out to those who are different from them?

Portions of our families... All scumbags.
Yet here we are complaining about trump and the Russians tricking people. I guess it didn't matter one way or another if people are just inherently evil anyway. People can be tricked or people can't. But we can't have it both ways.
I try to put myself in everyone's shoes. That includes the ignorant. If you grew up where I did you would understand some of these people never did have a chance to be civilized. Instead of some liberals helping and asking what they need, they belittle them and their culture. It's not that hard to be the bigger person.
Why do we as progressives put so much credence on education? Because we know too little will create gaps in society. These people are in the gaps. If they had the sense to get themselves out at a certain age we wouldn't need education cause it would just come to us one day... Well it doesn't. Especially people struggling just to live. Humans should learn throughout their whole lives. Sometimes it takes some people longer then others.

with me, you had better not show up with a handful of pitbulls, some of whom have already mauled and killed other dogs, and insist I take them in with the rest of my dogs because some pits are really gentle.

From little to big. Its in their nature. The majority of dog attacks are usually by a family pet. But dogs are here to stay.
You can try to bite them back but it just confuses them and you're gonna get hair in your mouth. If we have to keep them around I prefer we just train them right.

"Your Heroes are LOSERS"

How was Arnold ever a republican?

I'm having lunch with Roy Moore tomorrow

I thought the purpose of this website was to elect more Democrats. It appears it’s devolving into a “I hate you” board. Unless we’re preparing for physical confrontation what’s the point of focusing on the voters rather than the candidates and the issues?

If you don’t understand the enemy in war it means you’re fighting blind and hobbled.

Understanding something is not the same as sympathizing with it it.

If you still don’t understand them already, why not listen to the people on your side who already do?

I gave up trying to convince them of anything 30 years ago when I had a pleasant conversation with a woman about politics. She seemed to be listening and started to agree with the facts I was giving her after she made a really uninformed statement. I felt like I had won her over and we stayed friendly.

Except the very next time I saw her she made the exact same uninformed statement again. She had no idea or memory of our long recent conversation. I realized a huge truth that day and have never bothered to waste my time on willfully ignorant people again.

I am with you 100%!

She had made up her mind and who was I to confuse her with facts?

This is the type of thread that makes DU awesome because it addresses and solves such a controversial issue!

Yay!

...with molten lead hot pokers.

Their preferred world is very, very small and predictable. Since they don't feel like they're properly respected outside of their preferred world, they want to get rid of anything that upsets their sense of control and authority.

So yah, I understand them. And I want to reach out and give their little snowglobe world a big old shake, maybe break it so they come tumbling out and have to deal with the real world on it's terms, not theirs.

Haele

I assume they're just misunderstood.

The actual posts that I've seen are along these lines:

So what was it when the smaller group of people chose a morally and financially bankrupt reality TV star to sit in the oval office, or we have government experts who think "good national security" means "sure there is a mass shooter, but at least he's white", or the whole "I'll vote for a sex offender with visions of some sort of fascist theocracy over some commie Democrat to own the libs" that we saw in Alabama?

This whole government is absurd, this whole anti-liberal agenda is absurd, and this state sponsored paranoia is absurd. That is what absurdity looks like.

into that particular absurdity.

I have higher expectations for progressives and yes, based on those expectations, it is absurd to mock a suggestion that using broad brush insults does not help our cause by encouraging us to reach out to nazis & KKK members.

... the poster enough to pay attention to what they really said.

Thanks again, Ms. Toad.

Please leave the false equivalence to Faux Noos.

I’m rather certain that runaway nationalism, racism, xenophobia, military parades, misogyny, 24/7 state-messaging on a major “news” network, denouncing and defaming legitimate information sources, tolerance (and encouragement) of white supremacy, a stated desire to damage defeated political opponents, continuing “rallies” to whip up anger and resentment for minorities and Democrats, etc., etc. all constitute a far-right totalitarian regime. The fascism fail-safe point has been passed, and a certain segment of Americans are overjoyed by that sad fact.

Put it this way: Maybe all Trump supporters aren’t nazis or KKK, but it’s pretty obvious that all neo-nazis and white supremacists are big Trump supporters. And the others are complicit in their silence.

But they had a twisted dream to sell, and they finally got their "customers" to buy in.

Which is why every day that 45 is in the picture constitutes a day that things could go horribly wrong, given the man's proven (again and again) impulsivity. He needs to GO.

There are other differences. The minorities he chose to scapegoat (Jews, Gypsies and gays) made up a very small part of Germany's population.

Non-white people made up almost 39% of US population in 2016, per census data. That's a lot of people to round up and take to camps.

The bottom line is that the Trump supporters may be ignorant and misguided, but the vast majority of them aren't Nazi or KKK.

The situation is too much like Germany for comfort, but comparing Trumpsters with Nazis/KKK is false equivalence.

It took time, effort, propaganda, severe economic distress, and some behind-the-scenes lawlessness (including several murders) to move a majority of Germans to buy into Hitler's "vision." And while German Jews, Gypsies, communists and political prisoners were a small percentage of that country's total population, the Nazis nevertheless shipped such "undesirables" to death camps from the countries they occupied, from France all the way to the Russian Steppes. It's widely believed, based on available evidence, that the 6 million murdered may be a low-end estimate.

Yes, Trump's supporters are ignorant and misguided, but they also have alternative-viewpoint information outlets readily available to them if they were interested in hearing opposing ideas. But they're not. They stay locked into Fox, Breitbart, AM radio, etc., and never hear ANY opposing viewpoints during their average day. It's a steady diet of fear and anger, two addictive emotions -- be afraid of people of color, and be angry that they get shrift in this society. THAT is Fox Entertainment's meat-and-potatoes.

While only some of his supporters are out-and-out neo-nazis and white supremacists, a majority of them consider themselves superior to other ethnicities and cultures. It's unfolding right there in front of us: Trump rallies that whip up the idea of punishing political opponents (a very third-world practice), the demonizing of Latinos and African Americans, Confederate flag t-shirts, torchlight parades, support of Trump on American White Nationalist websites ("Heil Trump!&quot , etc. The Trump supporters who do not participate directly in these hate groups are very slow to denounce them, if at all-- including Trump himself.

I think the equivalence here, while there are some degrees of contrast, is anything but false -- Germany was entirely consumed by a toxic and fatal ideology; the U.S., at present, via Trump and his alt-right/white-power buddies (Stephen Miller, and the still-available-by-phone Steve Bannon, to name two), have made a dangerous flirtation with overtly fascist ideas: de facto deportation ("travel ban&quot , the threat of deportation ("They aren't sending their best...bringing drugs...crime. They're rapists...&quot , the laughable but corrosively racist attempt to disenfranchise minority voters ("voter fraud&quot , and lately, bald-faced authoritarianism-- snap decisions fraught with far-reaching implications-- that Trump makes without consulting any of his handlers. The fact that we have a president who NEEDS handlers should keep us awake at night.

This is our country's first fling with a far-right-wing president, administration and both houses of Congress. To date, the only office-holding Republicans to speak out against Trump have been Jeff Flake (retiring), John McCain (fighting aggressive cancer), and Lindsay Graham. Everyone else is either on board, or damnably silent, which is worse.

The American people are being forced to endure a battle for the "naming-rights" to reality itself. It remains to be seen whether the rule of law -- or far-right partisanship-- will prevail.

that we are even having this discussion.

"Trump is running for president"
"Trump got the nomination"
"Trump is now in the oval office"
"Very fine people"
"At least the shooter is white"
"'Sticking it to the liberals' as political discourse"
"Vote for Roy Moore, he's not a Democrat"

All absurd... but all reality.

Dead center.