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sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:37 PM Apr 2018

Should we blame Trump voters? Should we just give up on them?

While some argue that we should blame Trump voters, I think we should recognize that all humans are tribal, and that propaganda works.

I don’t think we should blame Trump voters. We should blame the propagandists and billionaires that manipulated public opinion. Mercer. Murdoch. The Koches. Ryan and McConnell.


I will always be able to find a way to welcome a GOP voter who repents.

But I blame GOP billionaires and their propaganda for lying to the GOP voters.



This puts it well. (And if you haven’t seen the hateful anti-Islamic ads that Bob Mercer paid for, please watch this video. It’s an eye opener.)






Mercer video:

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Should we blame Trump voters? Should we just give up on them? (Original Post) sharedvalues Apr 2018 OP
Fuck them, they aren't victims. Why does bigotry appeal to them ? JI7 Apr 2018 #1
Because the GOP propaganda machine lies to them and inspires FEAR. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #20
They heard and saw the pussy grabbing tape and voted for it JI7 Apr 2018 #26
And they thought Hillary was a warmonger sharedvalues Apr 2018 #40
They are fucked up. They WANTED to believe the lies about Clinton JI7 Apr 2018 #60
No. I have family who were fooled by propaganda. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #69
They heard and saw him TrishaJ Apr 2018 #65
You did. Fox watchers didnt see that. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #71
if they have fox they have access to other sources JI7 Apr 2018 #75
"Germans during the Nazis could have known that Jews were being killed" sharedvalues Apr 2018 #77
the germans DID know Jews were being killed and they supported it. the Germans were bigots who JI7 Apr 2018 #78
Yes!! Propaganda WORKS. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #81
it wasn't propaganda, it was hate and bigotry. Jews were persecuted for centuries even before Hitler JI7 Apr 2018 #83
Propaganda played a HUGE role. Read this. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #84
the propaganda appealed to existing bigotry. they fucking KNEW jews were being killed, wiped out and JI7 Apr 2018 #85
They're grown-assed people EffieBlack Apr 2018 #28
I agree. Blame them absolutely. They knew they were voting for a racist, sexual... brush Apr 2018 #87
'all humans are tribal, and that propaganda works.' elleng Apr 2018 #2
Recommended. guillaumeb Apr 2018 #3
We just need to outnumber them! yallerdawg Apr 2018 #4
Damn edhopper Apr 2018 #13
The Texas Democratic Party spent years trying to win the votes of white East Texas voters Gothmog Apr 2018 #5
As a white woman, I can only say thank God white Americans are becoming a minority. KitSileya Apr 2018 #59
The Texas GOP is worried Gothmog Apr 2018 #66
Agree.. I have in laws in east Texas mountain grammy Apr 2018 #68
Republicans are the issue here oberliner Apr 2018 #6
We have a platform that clearly shows where we stand. If Trump voters want to vote for jalan48 Apr 2018 #7
There will always be around 20% of people who are utter morons and beyond all salvaging. Binkie The Clown Apr 2018 #8
Focus on people who are with us, but did not vote. Blue_true Apr 2018 #9
Well yes for 2018, turnout is most important sharedvalues Apr 2018 #19
I know some Trump voters. I don't talk to them about anything more than I have to. nt Blue_true Apr 2018 #37
Agree CountAllVotes Apr 2018 #62
This is such an over-asked question, and really it's dopey and meaningless. Squinch Apr 2018 #10
No, its important. Let me explain sharedvalues Apr 2018 #14
They haven't been lied to. Trump ran as an openly bigoted candidate JI7 Apr 2018 #15
Right, and propaganda told them that Hillary was WORSE. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #17
Exactly Hillary was worse because she thought women and minorities deserved equal rights JI7 Apr 2018 #29
Who cares what gyrations are going on in your or my brain when we meet a Trump voter? Squinch Apr 2018 #35
Key: PROPAGANDA. We underrate it. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #41
How do your warm fuzzy feelings for the Trump voter attack the right wing Squinch Apr 2018 #43
GOTV. And campaign against Fox and GOP propaganda sharedvalues Apr 2018 #45
What makes you think I can't stand up for myself? Condescension doesn't Squinch Apr 2018 #49
Liberals underestimate propaganda sharedvalues Apr 2018 #51
No one is underestimating propaganda. Your suggestions for fighting Squinch Apr 2018 #52
We must fight propaganda if we want to take back the country sharedvalues Apr 2018 #54
Get out the vote. Squinch Apr 2018 #55
Both! sharedvalues Apr 2018 #56
The responsibility of Trump voters are . . . peggysue2 Apr 2018 #11
This is EXACTLY why this question is important sharedvalues Apr 2018 #16
Let them own it. Corgigal Apr 2018 #21
Fine. They were propagandized. I agree peggysue2 Apr 2018 #27
Well thats a task for the white male Dems if they want a mission- theyre lagging as far as bettyellen Apr 2018 #36
Whoa lets be positive sharedvalues Apr 2018 #42
Whoa, women have been the fore of the resistance- and youd better respect that were not kissing bettyellen Apr 2018 #47
Fighting propaganda is core to democracy in every country sharedvalues Apr 2018 #48
Agree about the propaganda, but not about being kind to bigots. bettyellen Apr 2018 #57
Yes, no one is forced to be influenced by propaganda treestar Apr 2018 #64
I blame Russia for stealing the election. I blame trump voters for their ignorance and hypocrisy NRaleighLiberal Apr 2018 #12
I don't know. As Milgram showed, humans are susceptible to influence sharedvalues Apr 2018 #18
Agreed - it is a critically important discussion. It really all does come down to our various NRaleighLiberal Apr 2018 #24
Book on Goebbels/Nazi propaganda american_ideals Apr 2018 #25
Some are absolutely reachable. Ace Rothstein Apr 2018 #22
hugs? populistdriven Apr 2018 #34
K&R. Exactly. "propaganda works" american_ideals Apr 2018 #23
Handle them case by case. Don't waste any time with the unpersuadable: struggle4progress Apr 2018 #30
Very well-put. american_ideals Apr 2018 #32
Fielding candidates who fit districts and states is going after the votes in a practical way. Demsrule86 Apr 2018 #31
Music for my mind and soul saidsimplesimon Apr 2018 #33
Hate and fear are addictive. haele Apr 2018 #38
Ok, let's say I agree with you. What solution do you propose? ProudLib72 Apr 2018 #39
Tell everyone to turn off Fox sharedvalues Apr 2018 #44
Alright, I think I understand where you are coming from ProudLib72 Apr 2018 #50
I have had positive experiences with voters sharedvalues Apr 2018 #53
Ordinarily I would urge treating them as one would usually treat someone with a severe mental jcmaine72 Apr 2018 #46
True. Someone had to make the koolaid those voters drank, and even... Beartracks Apr 2018 #58
Yes! Check out the OShaughnessy article on Nazi propaganda sharedvalues Apr 2018 #70
Done and Done. Iggo Apr 2018 #61
I say 'yes' to blame them. But I don't think we should give up on all of them. Captain Stern Apr 2018 #63
I blame Murdoch, Mercer, Koch and other propagandists more, though. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #74
This isn't going away anytime soon. And there are rich Dems as well ... Gates is one ... mr_lebowski Apr 2018 #67
No no no no no. GOP is the party of billionaires. sharedvalues Apr 2018 #73
Okay, show how that is true as well ... but we're going to need rich people's help ... mr_lebowski Apr 2018 #79
Say this: "Fox lies, to get votes for GOP billionaire donors" sharedvalues Apr 2018 #82
There are certainly many thousands who didn't like Trump but voted for him anyways elocs Apr 2018 #72
Never criticize the voters exboyfil Apr 2018 #76
Done wasting energy or thought on trump voters, other than to call them out in the moment. LuvLoogie Apr 2018 #80
Yes. Adopt 5 who didn't vote and convince those 5, easier than a MAGA dolt. sarcasmo Apr 2018 #86
blame for what? Ideologues are Ideologues...no different than catholic church and the beachbum bob Apr 2018 #88
A small subset of those who voted for the Bettie Apr 2018 #89
Bigotry is learned and not inborn. Garrett78 Apr 2018 #90
From Malcom Nance Gothmog Jun 2018 #91

JI7

(89,251 posts)
26. They heard and saw the pussy grabbing tape and voted for it
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:44 PM
Apr 2018

They heard and saw him attack minorities and they voted for it.

It's not bigots that are the victims.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
40. And they thought Hillary was a warmonger
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:10 AM
Apr 2018

Because not just Fox but also Maureen Dowd told this lie.

And they think Dems are baby killers because the right wing media machine says so.

And they hear many other lies about Dems- every night on Tucker Carlson and every day on Rush Limbaugh.


Check out “The brainwashing of my Dad”. Even good people can be corrupted by propaganda.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
69. No. I have family who were fooled by propaganda.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:21 PM
Apr 2018

Propaganda works.

Check out “The Brainwashing of my Dad.”

Fox and Limbaugh and the Russians are highly skilled propagandists. They can fool people. Mostly people who don’t follow the news closely. But people can be taken in without wanting to be.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
71. You did. Fox watchers didnt see that.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:27 PM
Apr 2018

One key propaganda technique of Fox and Limbaugh is to ignore things that hurt the GOP.

Fox barely mentioned him ridiculing a handicapped person. Just like they barely covered the Mueller indictments.


Thanks for bringing this up. This is a really important propaganda technique that the right wing machine uses. First, they ignore GOP negatives.
Second, they falsely accuse Dems of the same. “Corrupt? What about Hillary?” (A lie, of course)
Third, they minimize or excuse the negatives. “Just locker room talk”

JI7

(89,251 posts)
75. if they have fox they have access to other sources
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 11:07 PM
Apr 2018

and they did see the other stuff. they excused it.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
77. "Germans during the Nazis could have known that Jews were being killed"
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 11:14 PM
Apr 2018

Yet a majority supported Hitler, even till the end of the war. Was that because Germans were some sort of morally defective race of humans? Hitler and the Nazis were badly defective.

But the German populace was propagandized. Propaganda works. It worked in Nazi Germany, it works in Russia and America today.

Every dictatorship works to co-opt media because they know propaganda works.
We should recognize that. A decent number of Fox watchers will be so brainwashed they won't WANT to go to other news sources. That happens in every culture where propaganda exists. Humans are susceptible to propaganda.

And the people most responsible are the GOP propagandists.

JI7

(89,251 posts)
78. the germans DID know Jews were being killed and they supported it. the Germans were bigots who
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 11:16 PM
Apr 2018

supported the horror happening to the jews.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
81. Yes!! Propaganda WORKS.
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 01:08 AM
Apr 2018

If that was Americans exposed to the same propaganda, they'd have done the same thing.

That's why the Milgram psychology experiments in the 1950s were SO POWERFUL. (That's where he showed Americans would deliver painful shocks to other humans as long as someone was telling them to.)

Americans had thought the Germans were defective. That there was something deeply morally wrong about them. And Milgram showed Americans were capable of the same thing. The conclusion is that all humans are basically the same. And that it's society, culture, and propaganda that turns people into monsters.

The Nazis were masters of propaganda. I fear the modern American GOP is too.

JI7

(89,251 posts)
83. it wasn't propaganda, it was hate and bigotry. Jews were persecuted for centuries even before Hitler
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 01:18 AM
Apr 2018

and Americans were bigots also which is why many did not want to allow jews to come here.

many who support trump hate jews and others.

it's hate , bigotry, vileness.

they are not victims of propaganda.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
84. Propaganda played a HUGE role. Read this.
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 01:23 AM
Apr 2018
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fascism/2017/03/how_nazi_propaganda_encouraged_the_masses_to_co_produce_a_false_reality.html

The Nazi propaganda machine exploited ordinary Germans by encouraging them to be co-producers of a false reality.

Historian Karl Dietrich Bracher argued that the success of Nazi ideology can only be understood via the role of propaganda in the Third Reich. The Nazis’ modern techniques of opinion-formation in order to create a “truly religio-psychological phenomenon”1 made the propaganda especially powerful.

The Third Reich represents the evolution of a partnership between masses and demagogue, a co-production—for example, the invitation to believe the idea that the Jews had simply been removed to external work camps, and not murdered. What the Nazis were really saying was that their truth lay deeper than their lies and that their lies were merely a permissible methodology since the end always justified the means. In historian Aristotle Kallis’ view, the identification of propaganda with falsification is misleading: Propaganda is a form of truth “reshaped through the lens of regime intentions.”7 From the perspective of the Reich, the Nazis were selling German truth rather than British falsehood.8

The idea of people willingly misled offends our notion of man as rational. A more accurate representation of the psychology of the Third Reich would be to conceive of a partnership in wishful thinking in which the masses were self-deluded as well as other-deluded. Persuasion in such cases offers an idea of solidarity and the target of that persuasion is more co-conspirator than victim, an invitation to share in the creation of a hyperbolic fiction.9 Successful persuasion in business, media, or government, does not make the error of asking for belief. It makes no pretense of objectivity. The notion of persuasion as “manipulative” evokes a passive recipient and a hypodermic or stimulus-response form; but a more sophisticated idea is that of an invocation to partnership.10

Thus, the Third Reich was the emanation of a collective as well as an individual’s imagination. Submersible parts of the ideology, such as the antagonism to religion, the euthanasia campaign, the massacre of Jews, could all have been discovered by the determined enquirer. One theory advanced as an explanation of this is that of group narcissism, which is described by historian and psychologist Jay Y. Gonen as one of the most important sources of human aggression: “In a world that is seen through a narcissistic tunnel vision, only oneself or one’s group has any rights.”11

The purpose of Nazi propaganda was not to brainwash ordinary Germans, and it was not intended to deceive the masses even though it did enable the movement to gain new recruits. The principal objective, according to historian Neil Gregor, was “to absorb the individual into a mass of like-minded people, and the purpose of the ‘suggestion’ was not to deceive but to articulate that which the crowd already believed.”12


Exactly the propaganda used on the GOP base, and their behavior, is what the article says Hitler's regime used.

The Nazis wouldn't have killed millions without propaganda. Trump wouldn't have been elected without propaganda.

Regardless of what the root cause is - we must work to stop propaganda if we want to take the ocuntry back.

JI7

(89,251 posts)
85. the propaganda appealed to existing bigotry. they fucking KNEW jews were being killed, wiped out and
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 01:25 AM
Apr 2018

were ok with it. no amount of propaganda will make their support for that ok.

brush

(53,786 posts)
87. I agree. Blame them absolutely. They knew they were voting for a racist, sexual...
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 02:06 AM
Apr 2018

abuser. They made that decision, and don't try it with the brainwashing/propaganda.

The rest of the population was subjected to that crap and rejected it.

Gothmog

(145,303 posts)
5. The Texas Democratic Party spent years trying to win the votes of white East Texas voters
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:45 PM
Apr 2018

The former head of the Texas Democratic Party spent years and a ton of money focusing on winning white East Texas Voters. The former chair was from east Texas and was convinced that the state party could win statewide races if we just focused on white voters in east Texas. East Texas has places like Vidor (look it up) and there are still sun down towns in East Texas (which means that a non-white needs to be out of that town before sundown). These voters are motivated by ignorance and racism.

The Texas Democratic Party is now making progress with a new Chairman named Gilberto Hinojosa and a new vice chair Fredericka Philips. Chairman Hinojosa and the party are now focusing on areas other than Vidor and east Texas and we are making progress. Trump won Texas by only 9 points (Romney won by 17).

Based on what I have seen, the Democratic Party should not waste time on white trump voters.

KitSileya

(4,035 posts)
59. As a white woman, I can only say thank God white Americans are becoming a minority.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:24 AM
Apr 2018

In 2020, they will be a minority of Americans under 18 years old. The future is diverse and colorful and that is a good thing. White men overwhelmingly vote republican, a majority of white women too, and Trump is their attempt to keep their privileges. They'd like nothing more than formalize apartheid in the USA.

Any white people who have a problem with not reaching out to Trump voters instead of helping to overcome disenfranchisement of minorities is, to be frank, a part of the problem. We have finite resource. Let's not waste them on Trump voters.

mountain grammy

(26,623 posts)
68. Agree.. I have in laws in east Texas
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 04:34 PM
Apr 2018

who think we should just shoot libruls. Yes, these folks are a waste of time.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
6. Republicans are the issue here
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:50 PM
Apr 2018

Not just Trump voters, but also Cruz voters, Bush voters, Rubio voters, etc.

jalan48

(13,870 posts)
7. We have a platform that clearly shows where we stand. If Trump voters want to vote for
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:51 PM
Apr 2018

Democrats, that's their choice.

Binkie The Clown

(7,911 posts)
8. There will always be around 20% of people who are utter morons and beyond all salvaging.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:56 PM
Apr 2018

What's important is that the other 80% are kept well-informed and politically active.

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
9. Focus on people who are with us, but did not vote.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 08:58 PM
Apr 2018

If Trump voters or hardcore Bernie or bust voters chose to vote with us, so be it, but they get nothing to vote with us. That is where I stand on it all.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
19. Well yes for 2018, turnout is most important
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:22 PM
Apr 2018

Luckily, we don't have to persuade anyone to win elections. This is a dem-majority country and we need to stop the GOP from cheating and GOTV. And we will win.



But on a personal level, when you talk to a Trump voter, I think it's useful to remember most are deeply propagandized, and it's not totally their fault. It's Rupert Murdoch's fault. It's Rush Limbaugh's fault.

CountAllVotes

(20,875 posts)
62. Agree
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 06:14 AM
Apr 2018

They are a waste of air. Why bother with them and their demented/greed-ridden minds (a quality I've noted with every stupid one of them)?

We need to DUMP TRUMP ASAP!!!



Squinch

(50,955 posts)
10. This is such an over-asked question, and really it's dopey and meaningless.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:01 PM
Apr 2018

What does giving up on Trump voters look like to you? What does not giving up on them look like to you? You say you will "welcome a Trump voter who repents." What the hell are you going to do? Send flowers? They're going to do what they're going to do. You have little to do with it.

Am I going to specifically spend a lot of effort on Trump voters, begging them to change their ways? Of course not. Why would any of us do that? It would be stupid.

Am I going to GOTV as much as I am able, but concentrate on likely Democratic voters? Of course I am.

So what is it you want to know? Do I blame Trump voters for the fact that Trump is president? Of course I do! They voted for him!

This question is inane and silly. Get out the vote.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
14. No, its important. Let me explain
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:04 PM
Apr 2018

This is the situation where the question matters.


I walk up to a Trump voter. Do I think “this guy is a fool and an idiot and is unredeemable and I hate him”?

Or do I think “I feel bad for this guy, who has been duped by right wing propaganda”?


Of course it’s not totally binary. But i think it’s much more the latter - the propaganda - than the former.

And that affects our interactions with people. It means I have a lot more understanding and sympathy. It’s not that the GOP base is entirely evil, hateful, and destructive of America.

It’s that the GOP base has been lied to by billionaires. In pursuit of tax cuts for the rich.

JI7

(89,251 posts)
15. They haven't been lied to. Trump ran as an openly bigoted candidate
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:08 PM
Apr 2018

Look at his attacks on womenand minorities.

That shit appealed to them so they voted for it.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
17. Right, and propaganda told them that Hillary was WORSE.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:19 PM
Apr 2018

There are two propaganda tacks taken to get people to vote for an open bigot.

1. The right has spent decades telling white Americans that minorities are to blame. Lies that say minorities take jobs through affirmative action. Lies that say minorities take college places away from whites. So GOP propaganda has TURNED people into bigots.

2. The right wing propaganda machine also tells people that no matter how bad a Republican is - the Democrats are worse! That's why if you go to the Daily Caller right now you'll see an article saying that Democrats are racist.
Here's a good video showing this GOP propaganda at work - saying that Democrats are racist (Ben Shapiro)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=Vdl6zuSToO8



We have to stop the right wing propaganda if we want to save America. Most GOP voters are not to blame.

JI7

(89,251 posts)
29. Exactly Hillary was worse because she thought women and minorities deserved equal rights
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:46 PM
Apr 2018

Hillary was worse because she thought innocent black people being shot was a bad thing.

Hillary was worse because she viewed a Muslim woman as being like a daughter to her.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
35. Who cares what gyrations are going on in your or my brain when we meet a Trump voter?
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:55 PM
Apr 2018

I sincerely doubt they do.

This question has been asked over and over and over and over and over. It has been shown to provide a bonanza of divisiveness every time it is asked, so I do tend to wonder why some still insist on beating this horse.

"I think they're venal idiots" vs. "I think they are poor misguided souls." Over and over and over and over and over. The fact is that none of them gives a rat's ass which side of that argument you or I fall on.

Your sympathetic thoughts when you meet Trump voters are not going to change their votes any more than my antipathy toward them. They are going to do what they are going to do. You have little to do with it.

The whole question is just a big honking navel gaze.

Get. Out. The. Vote.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
41. Key: PROPAGANDA. We underrate it.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:14 AM
Apr 2018

First , the most important thing we can do is GOTV.


But second, we have to attack the right wing propaganda machine. That’s the WHOLE reason the president is still in office and not impeached.
Lots of Trump voters - not all - are just brainwashed and we can reach them.

The first step is telling every GOP voter you know that the right wing propaganda machine is lying to them to get votes for billionaires. We can break the propaganda hold by talking to people we know face to face.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
43. How do your warm fuzzy feelings for the Trump voter attack the right wing
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:19 AM
Apr 2018

propaganda machine?

And when you go up to your GOP friends and tell them they are being fooled, they are going to call you an elitist liberal, and tell you to go to hell.

So we're back to the start: this is an inane conversation and amounts to nothing more than a navel gaze.

Get. Out. The. Vote.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
45. GOTV. And campaign against Fox and GOP propaganda
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:26 AM
Apr 2018

(And stand up for yourself. If someone tells me to go to hell I can defend myself. You can too.)

If you want something else to do, other actions to take, look at the three items I just posted below.

And I’ll add two more to that: go to
- http://republiconradio.com and take action there. A DU member runs that site which aims to push back on Limbaugh.
- buy Dems in your life a copy of Lakoff’s “Don’t think of an Elephant” which covers right wing propaganda.

GOTV. And fight back against propaganda. Propaganda has a huge effect and we can do something about it.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
49. What makes you think I can't stand up for myself? Condescension doesn't
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:34 AM
Apr 2018

work any better on allies than it does on opponents.

No, I'm not going to campaign against Fox and GOP propaganda, because "campaign against Fox and GOP propaganda" is a meaningless phrase. Your instructions to tell Trump voters that they are being fed propaganda is not "doing something about" propaganda.

I'm not asking you for suggestions of "something else to do." I'll have all my time taken up with getting out the vote.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
52. No one is underestimating propaganda. Your suggestions for fighting
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:46 AM
Apr 2018

it are glib, and none of them are actually going to reduce the proliferation of propaganda.

Telling republicans that they are having the wool pulled over their eyes will entrench them in their dedication to that wool.

Writing to newspapers about Fox and Limbaugh are not going to stop Fox and Limbaugh.

The original question of "should we blame or give up on Trump voters?" is a navel gaze.

The way we win is to get out the vote.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
54. We must fight propaganda if we want to take back the country
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:49 AM
Apr 2018

I gave concrete suggestions you can do TODAY.
Letters to the editor have HUGE impact.
You can’t win an argument you don’t make. Make the anti propaganda case.

peggysue2

(10,830 posts)
11. The responsibility of Trump voters are . . .
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:08 PM
Apr 2018

on them, completely, no excuses. They were led into the darkness?? Makes them sound like a bunch of bewildered children. Would that apply to White Nationalists, the Bretibart crew, Alt-right fanatics? KKK members?

People voted for the Trumpster because they wanted to stick it to the rest of us: Libtards, women, people of color, gays, the educated, the people who had more than they had, immigrants, etc. Pick your scapegoat. They certainly did.

All those vile ads worked because the people who responded had an underlying ability to buy into the lies, the deceit, the hate. Just like the Germans did once upon a time. The Trumpster and his acolytes legitimized the rage, social media amplified it and the Russians flooded the campaign with money, laughing with absolute glee.

Trump supporters walked into the darkness. It's their choice to stay there or walk into the light.

In the meantime, the rest of us should concentrate on winning elections. Because right now? That's the only thing that matters.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
16. This is EXACTLY why this question is important
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:12 PM
Apr 2018

You're saying it's all the Trump voters' fault.

No way. I'm saying they were propagandized.

Propaganda works. Many Germans during WWII supported Hitler too. HITLER. Why? Because propaganda works.

The GOP base believes that Hillary is the devil, because their media bubble tells them that.

Here's why the GOP base supports Trump. Because Fox is propaganda.




We need to blame the propagandists. NOT all the average Americans who don't pay that much attention to news and are propagandized. The 10% of deplorables -- they are at fault. But a good number of GOP base voters are just propagandized.

Corgigal

(9,291 posts)
21. Let them own it.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:28 PM
Apr 2018

They picked their tribe. I'm not going out of my way for people who hate, but don't even know me. I guess I'm a fail on the liberal scale, but I'm using my eyes and unlike trump voters, I can see.

The ostrich thing, with the head in the sand was during Obamas reign. We are the majority and the unafraid, without Russia they are nothing but losers. Like the population of Russia, who allowed thugs daily to steal their hard earned income.

peggysue2

(10,830 posts)
27. Fine. They were propagandized. I agree
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:44 PM
Apr 2018

But they can now see with their own eyes and lives that the Trumpster has done nothing to improve their circumstances.

Has King Coal come back to its days of glory? No. And it won't.

Has their healthcare become what Trump promised? No. And it won't because Trump is a total ignoramus when it comes to healthcare.

Are their children being better educated. No. In fact, in Red State Oklahoma, the teachers are striking for a living wage and school supplies. Just as the teachers in West Virginia did.

Are they rolling in money after the cut, cut, cut Tax Reform. No. Because the benefits went to the highest earners.

Has The Wall been built with Mexican money? No, because it was always a fairytale.

And the Beat goes on.

Yes, Fox News is a total propaganda machine as it's been for the last two decades. As is right-wing radio. But Republicans lap it up willingly because it confirms all their biases, fears and latent rage. They like the authoritarian spin, the 'I can fix everything' nonsense coming out of Trump and his enablers. They also like that Trump has no respect for anything or anyone.

There are Republicans who have had enough, who recognized the Trumpster BS for what was and continues to be. They will vote with Dems because the only way this ends is for the GOP to lose everywhere. A number of Republican writers, lawyers, intellectuals, pundits have said exactly this: that no one should vote Republican, not even for the position of dogcatcher.

It's the only way the Republican leadership and resistent, heel-digging GOP electorate will wake from the stupor; they get locked out of all levels of power and influence.

Then we can have a conversation.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
36. Well thats a task for the white male Dems if they want a mission- theyre lagging as far as
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:57 PM
Apr 2018

Last edited Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:20 AM - Edit history (1)

activism goes, and if they think they can make progress one on one or local organizations- then they should stop yapping about it and do it already. From what I see, they’re all trying to convince other people to do this! LOL- this is not a job for women and POC. They hate us, it’s a waster of time talking to them if you’re a woman.

So have at it guys but spare those of us who have been leading the resistance without enough of your help.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
42. Whoa lets be positive
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:18 AM
Apr 2018

First we all can attack propaganda. Anytime you see Fox on anywhere, tell the owner it’s bad for America and ask them to turn it off.
Second, there’s activism everywhere in every demographic. Men and women and white and black and straight and gay, minorities and wealthy white guys all alike. Let’s stay together and support each other.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
47. Whoa, women have been the fore of the resistance- and youd better respect that were not kissing
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:29 AM
Apr 2018

GOP ass. It’s really all to easy for white men to ignore the threats against us- and against POC. Because they don’t hate you- their ignorance and fear is not of you.
But this is why these suggestions to court these assholes come from white men. You never hear women or POC suggest this- because it’s an insult to the core of who we are.

Every big protest- starting with the airports fighting the immigration has been 2:1 female to men- look at pics of any march and you’ll notice that after the first few rows of men upfront- the vast majority of people doing the work is women. We vote a good 15% more Dem than men do- and do so reliably. And POC are the most reliable Dems of all. To suggest that any of us should cow tow to those that hate us is ridiculous and deeply insulting. Don’t test our patience to suggest this is an actual viable strategy for us to put energy into. Nope, these assholes are not going to be reliable Dems- and you dismiss the most reliable Dems of all when you give these bigots your time and energy. Just no.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
48. Fighting propaganda is core to democracy in every country
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:34 AM
Apr 2018

And in every era.

Propaganda was core to Hitler’s regime. To Putin. To Chavez. Mao . Stalin.
And Today the Chinese control their media for propaganda purposes.

Don’t kow tow to anyone. Tell them they are full of shit because they believe lies from the GOP propaganda media. But don’t sleep on Fox and Limbaugh. They have a huge effect and we can stop them.

And you and I and everyone else at DU will stand together.

Ps at the march for our lives the male / female split was approx 1:1. Tons of support from parents and grandparents with their kids. It was inspiring to see.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
57. Agree about the propaganda, but not about being kind to bigots.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:09 AM
Apr 2018

And I took a close look at a few dozen pics of many of the March for our Lives marches, and it’s not even close to a 50/50 split. Go enlarge some pics, the only pace where it looks evenly balanced is if you look at the front few rows. Beyond that, it’s definitely a majority of women. We’re reliably showing up for the fight.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
64. Yes, no one is forced to be influenced by propaganda
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 08:40 AM
Apr 2018

or lies. People are not helpless to believe whatever they hear. They have to want to believe it more than they want to be objective.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,015 posts)
12. I blame Russia for stealing the election. I blame trump voters for their ignorance and hypocrisy
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 09:12 PM
Apr 2018

in supporting this illegitimate president.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
18. I don't know. As Milgram showed, humans are susceptible to influence
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:21 PM
Apr 2018

I blame the GOP for building a systematic propaganda machine to influence ignorant people through fear and division.

Some trump voters are truly beyond redemption. But most are just deeply propagandized.

This comment alone shows why this discussion is important to have.

NRaleighLiberal

(60,015 posts)
24. Agreed - it is a critically important discussion. It really all does come down to our various
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:33 PM
Apr 2018

vulnerabilities as humans - that ads work, that repetition of falsehoods will convert to truths for some, that we are so tribal, that humans can be inflicted by greed, lust for power...

As I like to say, humans v 1.0 are pretty flawed - we need some major fixes for v 2.0.

We certainly are engineering our own destruction, however.

american_ideals

(613 posts)
25. Book on Goebbels/Nazi propaganda
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:38 PM
Apr 2018
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fascism/2017/03/how_nazi_propaganda_encouraged_the_masses_to_co_produce_a_false_reality.html

from book

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1849043523/

I thought the above was really good. Discusses why and how propaganda works.

One key point that the author makes. Propaganda works best on the UNinformed. On the low-information voter. On the voter who doesn't pay much attention to politics.

So maybe that's a guideline. If you're a GOP voter who pays a lot of attention to the news, we should hold you in contempt. And if you're a GOP voter who doesn't pay much attention to the news or politics, we should feel somewhat bad at how you are fooled and instead hold in contempt the propagandists.

Ace Rothstein

(3,163 posts)
22. Some are absolutely reachable.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:28 PM
Apr 2018

We need to identify them and work on getting their votes in the future. The majority are a lost cause, unfortunately.

american_ideals

(613 posts)
23. K&R. Exactly. "propaganda works"
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:29 PM
Apr 2018

Love the Maza videos - he is really good at conveying the power of right-wing propaganda.

struggle4progress

(118,294 posts)
30. Handle them case by case. Don't waste any time with the unpersuadable:
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:49 PM
Apr 2018

the angry haters, the ideologues, the craven cynics or the willfully ignorant

Among your political opponents distinguish between those who care about both facts and fairness and those who respect neither

Be charitable towards those who really want to be fair but may get their facts wrong: most people are that way sometimes and might still be reached

Be very wary of those who can get their facts right but have no concern for fairness: they are our political sociopaths.

american_ideals

(613 posts)
32. Very well-put.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:51 PM
Apr 2018

You're right. But that means that 10% of America today are political sociopaths. The GOP and their media machine has done great damage to America.

The good news is that 25%+ of voters supported Nixon when he was impeached. We don't need everyone on board.

Demsrule86

(68,586 posts)
31. Fielding candidates who fit districts and states is going after the votes in a practical way.
Sat Apr 7, 2018, 10:51 PM
Apr 2018

Time to put the big tent back...only way we get a majority.

haele

(12,660 posts)
38. Hate and fear are addictive.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 12:16 AM
Apr 2018

While I can pity a Trump voter, I can't sympathse with them and I can't brush away the responsibility they carry for their own fear, immature and narrow-minded certainty, or their hateful Glee at sticking it to anyone who doesn't belong to their little clans of true believers.
On edit - their snowglobe existence is filled with the emotional opaites of authoritarian control over their bodies and minds, and they eagerly choose to hand over their individual rights and autonomy just to let the rich or religious leaders take responsibility.

Like all addicts, they have to ride their self-delusions down until they finally have to deal with reality before they'll even consider what they've done and the effects on the real world those actions cause. You can't sympathse too much when you're constantly cleaning up after them and their theiving, cheating "leaders".

Haele

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
39. Ok, let's say I agree with you. What solution do you propose?
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 12:29 AM
Apr 2018

How do we fight against the billionaire propaganda machine backed by the Russian State professional propaganda machine? Because in the absence of a viable solution, this argument gets really

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
44. Tell everyone to turn off Fox
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:21 AM
Apr 2018

Action you can take:
- Anytime you see Fox on, tell the owner it’s bad for America and ask them to turn it off.
- Tell all your friends and family that Limbaugh and Fox are lying to them, acting as an arm of billionaires who need votes for their pro-wealthy policies.
- write to your local paper about Fox and Limbaugh. Say that Sinclair is getting all the attention now, but Fox is owned by a GOP billionaire, and was built by a Nixon operative, with the intent of pushing GOP policies.


I’m doing all of those things. Can you do them with me?

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
50. Alright, I think I understand where you are coming from
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:39 AM
Apr 2018

Start a grassroots movement to combat the RW media giants. And that's a fair argument to make if you divorce it from the turning of the deplorables argument. I don't think anyone on here is going to condemn you for wanting to strip SBG of their power. However, you must realize that, until it occurs, it is hopeless to try and recruit tRump supporters to our side. As long as the RW controls the narrative, facts and logical reasoning will continue to fall on deaf ears. That's just my 2 cents. There have been isolated cases of former tRump supporters seeing the light, but not enough to convince me there is a straightforward solution or that it is a winning strategy to win back the government.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
53. I have had positive experiences with voters
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:46 AM
Apr 2018

It’s like dealing with cult members, you need to give hem new information. Telling them how the Koches donated $500k to Ryan the day after the tax cut for billioniares, and telling them Fox and Limbaugh stoke fear to get votes for GOP billionaires does work. A common response is “both parties do it”, and then you can come back with “only one party is the party of billionaires. Look at how the GOP tried to cut everyone’s healthcare to give tax cuts to the rich. And Fox and Limbaugh propagandized for those cuts. Why? Because the right wing media machine’s goal is to help GOP billionaires .”


You can’t win an argument you don’t make, is how I feel. Let’s not assume these will fall on deaf ears. Let’s make the argument, to the group who are merely brainwashed and not hard core racists or selfish and greedy.

jcmaine72

(1,773 posts)
46. Ordinarily I would urge treating them as one would usually treat someone with a severe mental
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:28 AM
Apr 2018

impairment. However, they've done great harm to our country and they must not be allowed to forget that.

Forgive? Perhaps, but only if they are genuinely contrite and admit that their decision to vote for this disgrace of a human being was motivated primarily by their own hate, fear and bigotry. It needs to be made clear to them that they need to come to terms with the poison inside of them if they are ever to be forgiven on any level. Then, and only then, should one even consider forgiving them.

Forget? Never! They should never be allowed to forget the real damage their abject stupidity has done to this nation, and we better not forget that either. Unless they intend to actually use their pea brains at the polls, they need to step aside and let the adults in the room do the thinking and make all the tough decisions for society. The nation simply can't afford their stupidity any longer.

Beartracks

(12,816 posts)
58. True. Someone had to make the koolaid those voters drank, and even...
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:21 AM
Apr 2018

... knew exactly what flavors would be appealing to them.

=========

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
70. Yes! Check out the OShaughnessy article on Nazi propaganda
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:23 PM
Apr 2018

Above there’s an article on slate by an expert in Nazi propaganda. It talks about how propagandists find the emotional buttons to push.

Captain Stern

(2,201 posts)
63. I say 'yes' to blame them. But I don't think we should give up on all of them.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 07:51 AM
Apr 2018

The first question is easy to answer. Anyone that voted for trump shares part of the blame for him being elected. I also think that anyone that was eligible to vote, that didn't vote for Clinton, also shoulders some of that blame.

As for giving up on trump voters, I think we already have given up on some of them years ago, and rightfully so. However, there are ones that we definitely shouldn't be giving up on.

When we get somebody that sat out the last election, or voted third party, we put an additional vote in our column. That's good. But when we get somebody that voted for trump in the last election to vote for our candidate instead of trump, that puts an additional vote in our column, AND subtract's one from their's. Thats even better.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
74. I blame Murdoch, Mercer, Koch and other propagandists more, though.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:58 PM
Apr 2018

The hardcore deplorables we should hold responsible.

But the people who are really destroying and dividing America are the propagandists.
Murdoch. Mercer. Adelson. Koch. Bannon. Ruddy at Newsmax. Paul Singer at Wash Examiner. Whoever funds the Federalist. Roger Ailes, who is probably in hell right now for the poor and sick people he screwed. Shapiro. Domenech. AshLee Strong. Paul Ryan. Hannity. Carlson. Anyone who considers themselves part of the conservative "media", which is really a propaganda machine that has nothing to do with the strong free American press the founders envisioned.

But when I see a low-information voter who hates Hillary for stupid false reasons, I think "That's mostly Rupert Murdoch's fault."

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
67. This isn't going away anytime soon. And there are rich Dems as well ... Gates is one ...
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 04:28 PM
Apr 2018

I'd imagine some of the other MS honchos like Paul Allen as well, some of the Apple honchos likely are, Ellison perhaps, even Cuban is a 'never Trumper' though he's not THAT rich, nowhere near the Kochs or Adelsons of the world. Obviously Soros ...

For now, our side is going to have to adopt these strategies until we can get back into power and outlaw some of this chicanery.

To set the stage we should be hammering home the idea that the GOP/Trump are eviscerating environmental and worker-safety regulations NOW, so that when the ads start for November, the public is AWARE of what these fucks are doing to the environment. We need powerful ads with like Pics of Bald Eagles standing on an oil derrick in the middle of a pristine wildernesses, images of cities underwater from sea-level rise, exploding oil drilling platforms, pics of oil-drenched otters, and polar bears on tiny ice islands, all that kind of stuff. That's just a start ...

Additionally we should have some ads featuring the terrible bigotry of the wingnuts ... images of swastikas painted on the side of synogogues and then pics of hateful imagery posted on FB by the perps, hopefully in their MAGA caps and stuff like that. Pics of the NC neo-nazi rally, video of Trump going 'some fine people', etc.

Although unlike the GOP, we'll need to actually FOLLOW THE LAW (which we all know they are exempt from) in terms gathering the info needed to properly target these ads but as long as we do, I got no problem with our retaliating using their 'general tactics' of targeting. You know, fuck 'em, they caught us with our pants down in 2016, and we cannot let that happen again, unanswered, in 2018. This is basically a type of civil war we have going, and the stakes are too high. We have to WIN FIRST to attempt to correct the problems with our elections being caused by dark money and military-grade psy-ops that the GOP are engaged in against our population.

Of course we still need a carefully crafted platform full of promises to help working folk/the middle class, protect unions and worker rights/safety, reasonable gun control measures, and we need to hammer that all home, too.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
73. No no no no no. GOP is the party of billionaires.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:53 PM
Apr 2018

I don't disagree with most of what you propose.

BUT. The achilles heel of the GOP is that they are a party controlled by billionaires, that is out to screw the working class. That is why they used to scream "class warfare!!" whenever Dems brought up rich people. The "1%" term finally broke through that bullshit.

Now the goal of the GOP is to use bothsidesism. "Both sides take money from billionaires!!"

That is BULL. SHIT. The GOP is the party of billionaires out to screw average Americans.

There are D billionaires. Gates is one. They tend to spend money on helping improve the world.
And then there are GOP billionaires like Koch and Adelson and Mercer who spend money on helping their own bottom line. Helping put money in their own pockets. Helping screw the working class.

Here's the bottom line. There is only ONE party controlled by billionaires. Only one party that wants to screw average Americans by destroying government to cut taxes on the rich.

And that is a political winner issue. The GOP is the party of billionaires out to screw average Americans. That statement is KRYPTONITE for republicans. Because it is true. Conor Lamb ran on that statement and won in a hugely red area. That's a political winner issue.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
79. Okay, show how that is true as well ... but we're going to need rich people's help ...
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 11:31 PM
Apr 2018

The trick is ... we have to show now OUR billionaires are not acting out of 'self-interest', not like THEIR Billionaires are.

Bill Gates won't expand his fortune by protecting the environment. The Koch Brothers, OTOH, literally enrich themselves by promoting GOP policies to that enable them to destroy the environment.

I know it's a distinction likely to fly over the heads of the 30%, but they're lost anyway.

MOST Americans, I'd like to think, are smart enough to understand the distinction. And we'd be on the side of right here, so that makes it easier.

IOW, I really don't know that we are in a position to be able to beat the evil Billionaires ... without help from the good Billionaires ... at this moment in time. Not when we're up against the military-grade psy-ops bullshit that evil ones are unleashing upon our Nation. Too many of the People are too ignorant is the bottom-line.

I think we pretty much have to resolve ourselves to the kind of propaganda campaign their side is engaged in (but of course, on the side of what is good and right), at least for now. Evil ... has gathered too strong a foothold.

sharedvalues

(6,916 posts)
82. Say this: "Fox lies, to get votes for GOP billionaire donors"
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 01:11 AM
Apr 2018

That's the summary of our current situation.

And on Dems courting political donations, I thought Hillary put it well. She says she asks for money, but she tells the donors that her policies might hurt them. And if they still donate, she takes the money.

And just tell people: There is ONE party that is the party of billionaires. One party that wants to cut middle-class healthcare to give tax cuts to billionaires.

We can attack the real problem - American Oligarchs, otherwise known as GOP billionaires - without compromising our principles.

elocs

(22,582 posts)
72. There are certainly many thousands who didn't like Trump but voted for him anyways
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:33 PM
Apr 2018

because they didn't like or hated Clinton, or that they wanted a Republican to nominate justices to the Supreme Court and judges in general (oh that more on the Left had grasped that concept) and they would certainly be open to voting, or choosing to stay home, rather than voting for Trump again.

Of course there were many thousands on the Left who didn't like or hated Clinton and couldn't bring themselves to vote for her either. Unfortunately the stark reality was that either Trump or Clinton were going to be the next president. Clearly if the choice is between bad and terrible the rational person will do what they can to prevent terrible from prevailing, and this time there can be no excuse for claiming ignorance.

exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
76. Never criticize the voters
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 11:14 PM
Apr 2018

Criticize individuals and their actions. Always try to sell yourself within the confines of your platform and belief system.

LuvLoogie

(7,011 posts)
80. Done wasting energy or thought on trump voters, other than to call them out in the moment.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 11:51 PM
Apr 2018

Relatives that may have voted for him just get kind of sheepish around me these days. They know they screwed the pooch, cooked it breakfast, and took it home to meet the parents.

Got no time to figure them out or argue with them. What's the point? They chose a bigoted nihilist to run the country. They showed their ass. Not my job to turn them into compassionate humans. I've got two daughters to raise.

 

beachbum bob

(10,437 posts)
88. blame for what? Ideologues are Ideologues...no different than catholic church and the
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 08:05 AM
Apr 2018

support in spite of the rampant pedophilia and child abuse.

We can only be responsible for our choices and smart enough to know when we are being bullshitted.. remember trump got elected by "smart people" who "refused to support the lesser of 2 evils" and did not vote or voted for stein

Bettie

(16,110 posts)
89. A small subset of those who voted for the
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 08:30 AM
Apr 2018

poorly animated circus peanut have already realized that they made a huge mistake.

They don't need us to reach out to them, they know that this is not working, that they were wrong.

The true believers? The ones who still declare that he's their guy? Fuck them. There is no reaching them.

I say this knowing that many of my relatives are these people. Many of my neighbors are these people.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
90. Bigotry is learned and not inborn.
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 05:25 PM
Apr 2018

But most Trump supporters have been steeped in bigotry for so long that it's less a question of are they propagandized and more a question of can they be reached at this point. Or, rather, is it worth the effort given we all have limited time and energy? Or is it better to focus on GOTV and educating young voters while they are still pliable?

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