I am proud of being a white person who loves diversity and believes in equality and inclusion. Whoever has an issue with this should not be my friend.

n/t

A person can't chose what race or ethnic makeup they are, but they can chose how they treat people that are different from them. An unqualified belief that one's race is superior ignore the vast amount of information that show that premise to be incorrect.

and Inclusion. We can't choose the color of our skin, but we can choose to have a "heart full of grace and a soul generated by love", to paraphrase a great man.

As for me, I have distanced myself from deplorables, now matter how close the friendship. I don't want the stupidity to rub off.

that you did nothing to accomplish? Accidents of birth are nothing to brag about.

Ethnicity or sexual orientation is neither a fault nor an accomplishment

"Proud to be white" isn't the same as having "black pride"--or "white pride" for that matter. "whatever ethnic" pride is about accomplishments of the people in that group; "proud to be" is about one's own situation, without regard to what has actually been accomplished. You could, I think, actually make a case (as racists do) for "white pride"--except that most everything we credit to white people could never have happened without the actual work of black, brown and yellow people. White people tend to take credit for everything, so "white pride" is meaningless.

Between "Proud to be white" and "White pride"

One is OK and the other not????

the "nuance" is when a group of people who has been historically OPPRESSED rises up to let the oppressors know WE'RE ALL EQUAL

honestly, it is like explaining to someone who asks "what is a gun humper" - pretty sure they already know

... when the culture has been telling your group for centuries you're no good.

But when the culture has been telling your group for centuries that you're the best and deserve all the power, well, pride gets dangerous. Humility would be the thoughtful response.

to overcome being used as cannon fodder, my home town was bombed, my grandfather killed in WW2, my great grandfather in WW2. I have family that survived the holocaust. They survived slum conditions, plagues, famine, and disease. Anyone who wasn't an aristocratic man was treated like a second class person. They were oppressed by greedy, callous rulers going back thousands of years. I don't give a damn what color they happened to be. I don't have a racist bone in my body, but don't imply that whites haven't ever had to overcome anything.

the people using WHITE PRIDE are not like my mum, who survived WWII or, my dad, who survived the Depression....they are RACIST ASSHOLES

that kind of obfuscation is exactly what people use when they claim they just cannot understand the difference between "white pride" and "black pride"

yup

means it is impossible to suffer. Cancer, death, loss, pain are just a few examples.

you completely missed my point

I am talking about overcoming OPPRESSION

*DONE HERE*

Does that count?

No one is claiming that white people haven't had challenges. But those challenges were not imposed on them because they are white. And, regardless the challenges they have faced, in this America, their whiteness gives them certain privileges that blacks don't have.

But I think you know this and, despite "not having a racist bone in your body," (which makes you probably the most unusual person in the country) are either just trying to be contrary or perhaps you have another issue or agenda?

no matter their color. I have lived here for ten years and am as shocked as I was on my first day in America at the level of bigotry and hatred. Of course, I recognize that "white pride" is about white supremacy. Some of the posts did seem to suggest white folk didn't have to face oppression. I am not proud to be white, nor am I ashamed, but is a bit off target to imply white folk have suffered too.

There are many terrible things that may have happened to you and your family and ancestors, but what terrible things have happened to you strictly because of your whiteness?

into my personal and professional life, maybe not racists, but I never even heard racism until I came to America.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/meghan-markle-engagement-prince-harry-exposes-quiet-racism-n825516

black. I would have stood up for my school friend if there was any racism against him. Yes, there is racism there especially in politics, but none my friends experienced it. Let me tell you a story. A TV personality - Robert Kilroy-Silk, published an article that said Muslims never achieved anything - the kind of thing you hear on Fox News. Trump says worse - Mexicans are rapists and murderers, etc. Kilroy Silk was on the front pages, named and shamed as a racist and booted off TV. Britain might be far from perfect, but it has standards that America can only dream of.

I attended an inner city school system that was 50 % black & 50 % white racially integrated in every school with busing. Was raised by a single parent with a lower middle class income.

While many of my classmates did just enough in school to get by, I studied hard & graduated with honors. It took me nearly 10 years attending night school after working all day at near minimum wage jobs and being self supporting. I finally was able to earn my Bachelor of Science Mechanical Engineering degree with the help of student loans which I happily paid back.

I am now finding out that apparently it was all due to my white privilege the whole time. Who knew?

since you don't seem to understand that white privilege does not mean your life has been easy or that you don't have to work hard or didn't overcome various hardships. But if you don't understand that your white skin gives you certain advantages over similarly-situated minorities, you are not as informed as you should be if you're going to opine on this topic.

And since sarcasm will only get you so far, here's some information that can get you started.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/black-white-wealth-gap-perceptions.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2014/06/27/white-high-school-drop-outs-are-as-likely-to-land-jobs-as-black-college-students/#24ad21527b8f

https://www.epi.org/publication/african-americans-are-paid-less-than-whites-at-every-education-level/

http://www.demos.org/blog/10/24/14/why-white-high-school-drop-outs-have-more-wealth-black-college-graduates

http://www.demos.org/publication/asset-value-whiteness-understanding-racial-wealth-gap

Here is the Forbes article you linked


"As both blacks and whites earn higher degrees, the difference in unemployment rates among the races narrows. Among black and white men who have earned bachelor’s degrees, the unemployment gap is only 5%. For black women who have bachelor’s degrees, the gap with whites is just 3%. For blacks and whites who earn professional degrees, the gap almost disappears."


"Another way of looking at it: Among blacks who earn professional degrees, the impact on their chances of finding a job is nearly one-and-a-half times greater than it is for whites who earn the same degrees. In addition, African-Americans who have bachelor’s degrees earn $10,000 more a year than those who don’t have a bachelor’s, compared to white men, who earn just $6,100 more than they would if they didn’t have a bachelor’s. The value of a graduate degree is even greater for African-American men. Those who have advanced degrees make $21,000 more per year than grads with bachelor’s degrees while white men with advanced degrees make just $15,100 more, according to BLS and Census data and analysis by a group at the College Board."

The fallacy with most all of these wage studies is that whether they are looking at sex or race, they don't account for what the college degree is actually in. When I was in Engineering school, there were very few Women or African American's in my classes. Yet, it is one of the majors in the highest demand and salary when graduating. Just because several groups of people earn college degrees doesn't mean all of them should therefore receive the same pay and employment opportunities. Interestingly enough, Veterinary medicine. for example is a very difficult major and graduates are 90% women while Engineering graduates are 90% male.

I had the same teachers and available classes as any of my K-12 classmates. There was nothing stopping them from achieving a STEM degree other than themselves. They could have taken the same route I did, but chose not to for reasons only they know.

Ok.

Have a nice evening.

mean I myself as an individual am proud that I was born a white person (through no merit of my own)

"white pride" means I am proud of all the fine accomplishments of the white people who have lived on this earth (even though most of them relied on the hard work of people of other colors of skin}

no nuance, just two completely different things

The difference is that there isn't a history of oppressing white people. But by in large I find celebrating those things to be a little silly. Others can absolutely celebrate those things. I recognize that I might feel differently if I weren't a straight white guy.

Do you think that the white servants in England, or the men who were press ganged onto ships were living the life of Riley? Do you think Roman slaves weren't oppressed?

That is what I replied to. You don't think white history in this country goes back to Europe?

Since we are not talking about white people or black people around the world throughout all of human history. We were talking about people in the United States.

But, of course, they can speak for themselves, so they can explain what they meant. But that's how I heard it. And I think that's the only logical way to take it unless you're trying to be an ass.

And now you conflate 'imply' and' infer' to continue your narrative...

Within the context of a society built on systemic oppression by rich white males and designed to create a "hierarchy" of victims pitted against each other, taking pride in those markers is a revolutionary act of reclamation.

White Americans have always been unashamedly proud of the country, which has usually been seen as a white nation. Therefore, they’ve never had to openly self-identify as white - it went without saying.

On the other hand, blacks and other marginalized groups were “others” who’s accomplishments, beauty, and fundamental value and self-worth were ignored and denied. But in the last 5 or so decades, we’ve begun to reconnect with and assert our own contributions and accomplishments. So, perhaps to some people, it might sound like we’re expecting a double standard (“Why do THEY get to be proud of who they are but WE can’t?”), in reality, we are simply doing what white folk have been doing for centuries - expressing pride in who we are, where we’ve come from and what our people have accomplished. The difference is that you get to see yourselves as just “Americans,” which usually means WHITE Americans, while we’re still trying to get the rest of the country to view us the same way. And the first step toward that is to recognize and appreciate who we are as human beings, something that white Americans have always had the privilege to take as a given regarding themselves.

That’s why white people can unashamedly brag about the accomplishments of the Founding Fathers - even though the had nothing to do with anything they did - and proudly celebrate the 4th of July - even though not a one of them fought in the Revolution.

It’s why black parents across the country forced school districts to add Black History classs to the curriculum - our role in American history has been dismissed and ignored. The only way this information could be taught was as a separate discipline - and then WE got blamed for being divisive. I can point to countless other instances BET, Black History Month, Congressional Black Caucus, the African American Museum, etc., etc.

In addition, blacks and other groups have accomplished and contributed enormously to this country DESPITE having to overcome unbelievable obstacles put in our way by the people who benefitted most by them and the very nation we were giving to. I don’t care WHAT you or anyone else thinks - I am unspeakably proud of that. Despite being crapped, we continued to love and fight and die for this country and remain true to it when I suspect most white folks would have said, “fuck this” and either violently revolted or gotten the hell out of dodge. But we stayed and overcame. So yes, we HAVE accomplished a lot and we have every reason to be proud.

Your points are very salient and I can't disagree with them. Just wanted to comment on this one.

"That’s why white people can unashamedly brag about the accomplishments of the Founding Fathers - even though the had nothing to do with anything they did - and proudly celebrate the 4th of July - even though not a one of them fought in the Revolution."

True, but at the same time, as a white person, I shouldn't be told I collectively bear some responsibility for slavery and oppression that I wasn't around for either. I am only responsible for my own actions and nothing else.

While I understand our country has had & still have many flaws, there is no other place I would rather live, so I don't see anything wrong with being proud to be an American and respecting what the founding fathers were able to accomplish regardless of my ethnicity.

If you’re going to be proud of the good things the Founding Fathers and other historical figures did in this country, none of which you had anything to do with, you have to also own the ugly stuff. You can’t have it both ways.

I’m always fascinated seeing white folks wax rhapsodic about our noble history, as if what Thomas Jefferson and George Washington did was carried through into the bloodstream of every American walking around today, but the stench and filth of Roger Taney and Andrew Jackson and countless other slaveowners and murderers were sanitized out of our systems centuries ago and nobody has to own it. But if you own the good, you gotta also own the bad.

Because hypocrisy.

But of course any group has good and bad, whether it is based on race, nationality, political party, religion, sport, whatever. Of course there is cherry-picking and I see nothing wrong in that. You can be proud of the best. There is nothing wrong in that.

If white Americans "get to see yourselves as just 'Americans' ... while we’re still trying to get the rest of the country to view us the same way" -- do you think that, eventually, the goal of a future America would be that all races could/would view themselves as "just Americans" and that the qualifiers "African-American," "Mexican-American," "Italian-American," etc., would no longer be needed or even used?

I'd hate to see diverse traditions and cultures blend into obscurity, but I'd also like to see all Americans be included in the "default American" classification, where there are no more "others." Is this even possible? Or are the two mutually exclusive?

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Last edited Mon Apr 9, 2018, 09:16 AM - Edit history (1)

identity and absorb themselves into the culture, traditions and history of white Americans.

I don't want to give up my own heritage and don't think anyone else should give up theirs. And I don't want to be seen as "just an American" because that means that I'm not seen in the fullness of who I am.

There's nothing wrong with recognizing and appreciating diversity and the differences between us. The problem comes when value judgments are made based on those differences.

I once upset a white colleague I was meeting for the first time when he asked me how he would recognize me in the restaurant. I told him, "I'm black." He got really flustered and said, "Um, well. That's not important. What will you be wearing?" And I said, "I have on a brown suit. And I'm black." He stammered some more and said, "What color is your hair?" It was pretty funny. Later, when we got to know each other better, I asked him why he had such a hard time just accepting that I was telling him I was black so that he would have an easier time finding me in the restaurant - after all, my skin color is my most visible distinguishing characteristic.

He said that he doesn't see color and didn't want me to think he was a racist. I explained to him that, first, of course he sees color. He'd be an idiot if he didn't. And there's absolutely nothing wrong in noticing that I'm black - no more unacceptable than him noticing that I'm female. And there's certainly nothing wrong with noticing my race when trying to find me in a crowded restaurant. The problem would come in if he used that to make judgments about me - to determine my intelligence, or competence or morality or to decide whether he should hire me or trust me with his business, etc.

So I'm not a fan of the "let's all be just Americans" approach - because none of us is "just" an American. We are our history, our culture, our heritage and that should never be ignored or dismissed.

not something I feel or want to be associated with. There is a lot to celebrate in what minority groups have achieved and still more work for all of us to do.

diminishing the sense of self-worth of people of color and of women and of people in the LGBQT community, while the other is a means of taking credit for the colonial efforts that domineered and ultimately caused all of that suffering. The former is necessary because it is trying to redress a great wrong that has stripped people of their dignity, there is a literal need to counterbalance the pervasive and degrading narratives about what it is to be identified among any of these populations in the mainstream.

If a white person thinks he or she is suffering at the hands of a dose of reality when it comes to history and current privilege, and feels the need to be compensated with a white pride movement, I submit that that person really truly does not know the face of oppression, and should look a little more closely in the mirror.

Edit: And yes, as Effie said and I regrettably missed including, so many accomplishments of people of color and other marginalized groups have been simply uncredited or credited to the white men who took them as their own. An honest history requires that these people get their due, and it is so important to the psyche of people who are unjustly either fed stereo-types of who they are, or are fed only the "what was done to them" narrative. One is total bullshit, and the other is far from the complete picture. This is about affirming agency and potential, and frankly, stripping away the mythology that may be feeding some of that white pride...when one doesn't see the achievements of others because they have been swept under the rug of history, maybe one's shallow, surface, interpretation of that data can suggest that there must be something special about his race, thus continuing to feed a problematic sense of white pride.

by-products of time and/or DNA." Seems applicable here, too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/quotes/comments/3yu749/youth_and_beauty_are_not_accomplishments_theyre/

That seems odd to me.

I have this deep character flaw of seeking advice from others before making decisions.

Sure you did!

You are subtle as a hurricane.

They just wanted to vent and talk?

I don't have many dems around me to talk to and this site saves me from my explosive anger at some of the people I have to deal with at work.

I'm in deep-red rural Indiana. NO ONE of a progressive mind anywhere around. Same with work: I keep my college degrees quiet and never talk politics. It could literally cost me my job.

I am always grateful that I live in a large, very blue city where people like me are the majority, however my workplace is headquartered in the mid-west and we have a number of employees that are very religious and very right-wing, although being in Boston they realize that they may be outnumbered so they keep it to themselves. It's kind of a touchy situation. Nobody can really be sure where anyone stands, although you can usually guess. Still, it's not a good idea to stereotype, but for the most part it fits.

I am thankful to be here, but relatives in another part of the state will only talk about Trump or other political issues in very hushed tones when out in public.

You could engage with them if you thought it would do any good. Once in awhile it does, but not always.

We are what we are.. make the best of it, and know that we're all just human beings no matter what color our skin happens to be.

Be proud if you're a good person who treats others kindly.

Good for them

IKR? The years of trial and tribulation...

Im always shocked by people who are obsessed with their melanin deficiency.

tell them it's not about being proud to be a certain race, more that African Americans and other minorities have to overcome prejudices that whites by and large have never had to endure.

Seriously. Why be proud of a birth accident? That mindset is very telling. If all things were equal would they be ashamed to be any other race? Or gender?

That’s exactly what skinheads say to overcome their obvious inferiority complex.

It means they’re making excuses for the horrors their race has inflicted on others throughout history. It’s shorthand for letting the world know all that devastation is OK with them. Ugh!

The first words i thought of were "accident of birth".

The pride in one's heritage seems to make sense if there was something to overcome that previously made it hard to show that pride.

I'm of sicilian descent. I dig it, but i'm neither proud nor ashamed. It just is. And sicilians did have a little to overcome, but nothing ridiculous.

So, the comparing black pride or gay pride to white pride is ludicrous. Being born white and straight is sort of the genetic lottery over the past few thousand years. Just luck. "I'm so proud about how lucky i am". Who says that?

"Not one white person in America would trade places with me - and I'm rich!"

This "tribalism" and "privilege" they talk about is not a new thing at all. We just use prettier words to describe the same old shit.

He also has a great riff about he and Dr. J being the only blacks in his wealthy neighborhood and the only other guy on the block is a white dentist - pointing out that, in order to live in that neighborhood, the black people have to be international celebrities while a white guy just needs to be a DENTIST.

humility is more my thing. So much of all of our lives is fate and luck.

Even on FB.

You don't need to "shun" them with all the cold and inhospital attitude that comes with that action. But you don't need to seek out their company or answer their posts or talk or write to them.

Sometimes in our overly competitive and hostile capitalistic economic system, you are forced to be with people you would never seek out. So, instead of constantly fighting with them, avoiding them and ignoring them is sometimes the better part of valor.

For a long time, before I realized I was an atheist, I went to a Lutheran church, NOT Southern Baptist because they can be quite a bunch of right wing tools. I thought the small congregation was filled with nice, caring people. Then they started saying outlandish racist things and the preacher started preaching the right wing talking points. They turned into just another right wing Jesus tool for the RepubliCONS.

So, needless to say, I stopped going. And I have since found friends who are more like me. I feel much better now.

The history of white colonialism and domination? And that domination is total. (Or was. I’ve been seeing some encouraging signs lately). Are they proud that it is still a fight to achieve “firsts” by POC in a variety of topics, from movies to science? Are they proud of racist zoning laws, racist lending laws, racist drug laws—all concocted by white minds to keep themselves “pure”, while we engage in the most egregious of culture appropriation? Are they proud continuation of white politics that exist only to elevate white folks at the expense of everyone and everything else?

If they are “proud” they need to own it all.

Plus it’s ridiculous and destructive. My half Filipino niece goes and sings at the Swedish club because of my brothers love of his Nordic (White) heritage while she does not speak the native language of her mother

On holidays my Dad thought is was traditional—Blech.

Keep the lefsa.

That's what my mother did after suffering through her own father thinking lutefisk was "traditional".

They were hard-working decent people who, on the whole, left the world a better place than it was when they came in. I'm kinda proud, I guess, of being an American mutt.

Saying, "I'm proud of being white" is essentially saying, "I'm proud of not being one of those people." Aside from being vicious, it's pretty meaningless, since the definitions of "white" and "those people" have changed throughout history.

Just say, "I'm an asshole who hates people for no good reason" and be done with it.

But in for a penny, in for a pound. If he wants to take pride in his whiteness, he needs to own it all - good and bad.

The pride "non-whites" have is warranted because of achievements DESPITE the societal embrace of such fictions.

I highly recommend the current issue of NG for its exploration of the social contructions of race and identity, and the historical effects of same.

you DO have that option, proud white person-
you have the luxury of actually knowing your heritage. be proud of the accomplishments of slovenians and bulgarians and lithuanians worldwide. you can do that.

all EYE have is Black tho. i have no idea where my ancestors are from, beyond east texas. because of, you know, circumstances. the same circumstances you don't like to talk about?

so yeah, have pride in your danish polish greek roots. WHITE tho? nah

Like the false equivalency of the Black Miss America, black colleges, etc. They point to those to claim it should be OK to have a white one. Which is a ridiculously false equivalency. Right wingers often thing they have figured out some wonderful argument and they keep repeating it no matter how stupid it is. This is just another of them "gay pride," "black pride" so "white pride" therefore cannot be argued as unacceptable and they think that's a brilliant argument and a done deal.

Are these the same people who are mad they can’t use the N word?

Because some white people seem really obsessed with being “allowed” to say it. Just seems like that Venn diagram is probably just one circle.

Be proud you're a good person for whatever reason, but the color of the wrapping doesn't matter.

WTF do I have to be proud of?

I think the answer is to stop catering to racist assholes

think is special about it? What about whiteness differentiates themselves, aside from historic and current circumstance, from other people? They would have to think it was something to even say this.

I would say ask them pointed questions about what they think they mean. Get them to examine the absurdity of their own thoughts, or to at least own what they are really saying. If you can get at what it is they think they understand, then you can challenge those misconceptions that this pride is structured on.

That I can be pulled over by police for speeding, and not feel any tension or fear from that encounter.. while so many others do makes me ashamed of our culture.

That if my home is robbed, or I’m assaulted, or I have need to turn to the police for assistance I can count on them investigating, and taking reasonable action on my complaint.. while so many others may not count on the same level of assistance makes me ashamed of our culture.

That should I break the law, or be innocent and accused of breaking the law I may count on better legal council, better representation, a better deal from the DA, and better chance of a jury acquittal than others simply due to the color of my skin makes me ashamed of our culture.

That in employment or a job interview I can count on better treatment, better opporunity, and all too often a better wage simply due to the color of my skin makes me ashamed of our culture.

That when I do something as simple as strolling through a parking lot people won’t randomy check their wallet or hold their purse tight up against them simply because I happen to pass near them because of my skin.. while others do experience this because of theirs makes me ashamed of our culture.

to have brown eyes? I am not proud nor ashamed to be an American though I am very happy to be one.

Be proud to be Irish, or Greek. But “white” only exists to define “not black”.

I'm proud to be Caucasian or I'm proud to lack skin pigment. It means to be proud to have all the trappings of being white like being privileged.

Here try a couple more that don't work:

I'm proud to be heterosexual. Or
I'm proud to be male. Try...
I'm proud to be able to walk
I'm proud to have sight
I'm proud to be young

None of these work because they are all natural or privileged conditions and in this context carry a bit of arrogance.

Humility and inclusiveness are the only way to go and there are some great examples up thread.

Sounds simple and humble but it's false pride.

In all honesty, my very existence on this planet has done harm today.

...... .........

or whatever the case may be....is NOT. There's a difference. Ask them if they know what it is.

There is no White ethnicity. There really isn't a White culture. White just means, not Black, Brown, or any other color.

it isn't something to be either proud or ashamed of, it simply is.

However, most of the people I know of who claim to be so proud to be white spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to obtain darker skin (tanning). So, go figure.

Me? My choices are blindingly pale or lobster-red.

You said "I know the answer lies in me and not them. But what is my answer?"

Try this idiom: "Before criticizing, look deep inside yourself first." That practice usually stops me dead in my tracks. False pride and hubris can take a million forms.

Don't know you or your friends, but it may not be worth alienating friends because they're parroting a popular line of bullshit. In the end, we don't really know what's in their hearts and probably never will.

.... ..........

Disclaimer: I'm old but not a sage.

If I run into them I'm polite a quick hello then move on. But I no longer make it a point to put effort into the friendship and that includes social media.

"I'm proud that I'm less likely to be targeted by police and other security personnel because of my skin color."
"I'm proud that my kids are less likely to be disciplined or suspended from school because of their skin color."
"I'm proud that when I clean up and take the proper medications, I appear "normal" and "less threatening" to juries, judges, and creditors because I'm part of the majority and will be given the benefit of the doubt rather than have to depend on the law to be treated like a citizen."

This isn't like saying "I'm proud to be <FITB> cultural heritage." Heck, I think it's actually worse than saying "proud to be Southern" or "proud to be a redneck".
Being "White" doesn't have the same common historical connotation that being Black, Hispanic or Native American does in this country. In fact, there is not really a monolithic White culture not here, not in Europe, and not in any of the former European colonies. It's like calling everyone from the Asian sub-continent "Oriental", no matter their looks, culture, or religion. What does Oriental mean (other than the Latin/European term meaning "from the East&quot ?

There's a White social and legal Privilege that can be greater or lesser due to class, but there is not a White Culture.

I'm sorry to say those FB friends are idiots.

Haele