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N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,734 posts)
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 12:39 PM Apr 2018

If We Don't Act Now, Fascism Will Be on Our Doorstep, Says Yale Historian.

Posted with no comment.

https://www.alternet.org/activism/if-we-dont-act-now-fascism-will-be-our-doorstep-says-yale-historian

How close is President Donald Trump to following the path blazed by last century's tyrants? Could American democracy be replaced with totalitarian rule? There's enough resemblance that Yale historian Timothy Snyder, who studies fascist and communist regime change and totalitarian rule, has written a book warning about the threat and offering lessons for resistance and survival. The author of On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century talked to AlterNet's Steven Rosenfeld.

-snip-

We think about democracy, and that’s the word that Americans love to use, democracy, and that’s how we characterize our system. But if democracy just means going to vote, it’s pretty meaningless. Russia has democracy in that sense. Most authoritarian regimes have democracy in that sense. Nazi Germany had democracy in that sense, even after the system had fundamentally changed.

Democracy only has substance if there’s the rule of law. That is, if people believe that the votes are going to be counted and they are counted. If they believe that there’s a judiciary out there that will make sense of things if there’s some challenge. If there isn’t rule of law, people will be afraid to vote the way they want to vote. They'll vote for their own safety as opposed to their convictions. So the thing we call democracy depends on the rule of law. And the things we call the rule of law depends upon trust. Law functions 99 percent of the time automatically. It functions because we think it’s out there. And that, in turn, depends on the sense of truth. So there’s a mechanism here. You can get right to heart of the matter if you can convince people that there is no truth. Which is why the stuff that we characterize as post-modern and might dismiss is actually really, really essential.

- snip-

The same thing goes with Mr. Trump. The things that he might do that some people would like, like building a wall or driving all the immigrants out, those things are going to be difficult or slow. In the case of the wall, I personally don’t believe it will ever happen. It’s going to be very slow. So my suspicion is that it is much easier to have a dramatic negative event, than have a dramatic positive event. That is one of the reasons I am concerned about the Reichstag fire scenario. The other reason is that we are being mentally prepared for it by all the talk about terrorism and by the Muslim ban. Very often when leaders repeat things over and over they are preparing you for when that meme actually emerges in reality.

-snip-

TS: Yes. The point of the book is [that] we are facing a real crisis and a real moment of choice. The possibilities are much darker than Americans are used to considering. But at the same time, what we can do is much more important than we realize. The regime will only change if the gamble of the people in the White House is right: That many of us despise many others of us and that most of us are indifferent. If it turns out that there are emotions and values that are more numerous and more vibrant than indifference and hatred, things are going to be okay. That depends on us. That depends on us making certain realizations. It depends on us acting fast. In that sense it’s a test, not just collectively. Maybe there’s no such thing as a collective test. But it is a test for us individually.

Most Americans who haven’t been abroad haven't been faced by something like this. And hopefully they won’t be faced with it again. But we are faced with it as citizens and as individuals. And I think, five or 10 years from now, no matter how things turn out, we’ll ask ourselves—or our children will ask us—how we behaved in 2017.

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If We Don't Act Now, Fascism Will Be on Our Doorstep, Says Yale Historian. (Original Post) N_E_1 for Tennis Apr 2018 OP
1922, NYT: dalton99a Apr 2018 #1
This book is a MUST-Read!! GIANT K & R!! lastlib Apr 2018 #16
Good link. notdarkyet Apr 2018 #26
K&R smirkymonkey Apr 2018 #2
Almost as if we have to vote for ANY democrat, NO MATTER WHAT Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #3
Ding! Ding! Ding! Vote like your life depends on it! Initech Apr 2018 #5
But I am a person who votes for ideas, not people, so I cant promise Eliot Rosewater Apr 2018 #7
So how has that worked out out for us? Because it sure helped give us Trump. elocs Apr 2018 #13
And then their dumbasses counter with MariaCSR Apr 2018 #31
I arrived at that conclusion Hayduke Bomgarte Apr 2018 #11
Its already here! Fox News is practically state run TV at this point. Initech Apr 2018 #4
The link between fux and dump is much more direct. They are both getting orders erronis Apr 2018 #17
Yeah I wonder who is feeding Fox News. Initech Apr 2018 #18
Roger Ailes was the last surviving member of the 1968 Nixon "Dirty Tricks Team." DFW Apr 2018 #34
I worry that the rule of law will disappear.... kentuck Apr 2018 #6
2016 was a corrupted election. triron Apr 2018 #8
With more than a little help from our own FBI. (eom) StevieM Apr 2018 #21
help indeed. after the comey letter is when Clinton's polling numbers started to change. Kurt V. Apr 2018 #24
Fascism, A Warning by Madeleine Albright Poiuyt Apr 2018 #9
Past week: 1. Database of journalists & bloggers. 2. Concentration camps on military bases. Bernardo de La Paz Apr 2018 #10
Major K&R defacto7 Apr 2018 #12
Fascism Meowmee Apr 2018 #14
We're not fighting its arrival shadowmayor Apr 2018 #15
Our inability to confront the size of our Defense/War apparatus is a huge problem for our nation. jalan48 Apr 2018 #19
And going into a black hole nobody knows where. I always have thought it a crime and a sin. notdarkyet Apr 2018 #29
yes - those are the real powers Locrian Apr 2018 #23
Exactly. tRump just made it an emergency. GOTV! Kurt V. Apr 2018 #25
K&R! yonder Apr 2018 #20
and it's not just trump Locrian Apr 2018 #22
Kicked, Rec'd! nt Anon-C Apr 2018 #27
There are any number of two-bit wanna be dictators in this country. dameatball Apr 2018 #28
Fascism is way past the doorstep coeur_de_lion Apr 2018 #30
+1 Amen. appalachiablue Apr 2018 #35
I'm still hoping rownesheck Apr 2018 #32
It's not just at the door. Fascism has opened the door and crossed the threshold. hedda_foil Apr 2018 #33

dalton99a

(81,515 posts)
1. 1922, NYT:
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 12:52 PM
Apr 2018


He is credibly credited with being actuated by lofty, unselfish patriotism. He probably does not know himself just what he wants to accomplish. The keynote of his propaganda in speaking and writing is violent anti-Semitism. His followers are nicknamed the "Hakenkreuzler." So violent are Hitler's fulminations against the Jews that a number of prominent Jewish citizens are reported to have sought safe asylums in the Bavarian highlands, easily reached by fast motor cars, whence they could hurry their women and children when forewarned of an anti-Semitic St. Bartholomew's night.

But several reliable, well-informed sources confirmed the idea that Hitler's anti-Semitism was not so genuine or violent as it sounded, and that he was merely using anti-Semitic propaganda as a bait to catch masses of followers and keep them aroused, enthusiastic, and in line for the time when his organization is perfected and sufficiently powerful to be employed effectively for political purposes.

A sophisticated politician credited Hitler with peculiar political cleverness for laying emphasis and over-emphasis on anti-Semitism, saying: "You can't expect the masses to understand or appreciate your finer real aims. You must feed the masses with cruder morsels and ideas like anti-Semitism. It would be politically all wrong to tell them the truth about where you really are leading them."

lastlib

(23,248 posts)
16. This book is a MUST-Read!! GIANT K & R!!
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:42 PM
Apr 2018

Snyder lays it all out--if we allow Dwump to continue on his path, democracy Will. Be. DEAD! IMPERATIVE that we toss him out on his fat ARSE--ASAP!!

Also encourage reading this: The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism Lawrence Britt identifies the traits of fascist ideas through recent history, and EVERY. One. of them fits Cheetolini to the tee! It's on our doorstep, folks--we MUST fight it here and now, tooth and nail! Those who do not FIGHT this enemy ARE the enemy!

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
2. K&R
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:09 PM
Apr 2018

People always say it can't happen here. I say it can and it will if we don't stop it. This is not a drill people. This is serious stuff.

elocs

(22,582 posts)
13. So how has that worked out out for us? Because it sure helped give us Trump.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:28 PM
Apr 2018

The GOP depends on the Left breaking off from the herd in the general election.
The time to change the direction of the Democratic Party is during the primaries, not the general election. I ALWAYS vote for the Democratic candidate in the general election.

Hayduke Bomgarte

(1,965 posts)
11. I arrived at that conclusion
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:03 PM
Apr 2018

30 years ago. A "bottom of the barrel Dem" is far more preferred that the "best rethuglicon", what ever best means.

Initech

(100,080 posts)
4. Its already here! Fox News is practically state run TV at this point.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:22 PM
Apr 2018

And they talk directly to Trump, since they know he's watching 24/7 and pretty much live tweets whatever they say.

erronis

(15,303 posts)
17. The link between fux and dump is much more direct. They are both getting orders
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:46 PM
Apr 2018

from the same handlers.

While donnie-boy needs to be given visual cues (blonds) to understand the real news and then to twit about it, the rest of the upper-level apparatus is already in tune.

Initech

(100,080 posts)
18. Yeah I wonder who is feeding Fox News.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:57 PM
Apr 2018

What kind of sick assholes Rupert Murdoch set us up with. This is a direct bullshit pipeline. If we were to cut it off at the source I don't think it would stop the bullshit but it would certainly have an impact.

DFW

(54,405 posts)
34. Roger Ailes was the last surviving member of the 1968 Nixon "Dirty Tricks Team."
Mon Apr 9, 2018, 09:02 AM
Apr 2018

These people have been at this game a long time, and they adapt to new situations and technology very rapidly. Our having better ideas and bigger numbers will not always win out over that unless our numbers are too overwhelming for their fraud to overcome.

The "you-can't-make-me-vote-for-Hillary" crowd may have a point, but the time to make it is before the primary season is decided. Once the outcome is obvious, it is time to adopt a for-or-against stance, because it's all that stands between us and the end of our system of government as we used to know it.

Poiuyt

(18,125 posts)
9. Fascism, A Warning by Madeleine Albright
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 01:52 PM
Apr 2018
https://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Warning-Madeleine-Albright/dp/0062802186/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523209721&sr=8-1&keywords=madeline+albright+fascism

Coming to a bookstore near you on April 10.

"A personal and urgent examination of Fascism in the twentieth century and how its legacy shapes today’s world, written by one of America’s most admired public servants, the first woman to serve as U.S. secretary of state"

shadowmayor

(1,325 posts)
15. We're not fighting its arrival
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 02:39 PM
Apr 2018

It's been here for decades. Our real fight is to undo the Wall Street - Military Industrial Complex, neo-liberal economic model espoused by Thatcher and Reagan. It's already here, few like to admit it, and we need to fight the good fight to undo that which has slowly permeated the fabric of our republic. The wars we are engaged in are fought without protest, and our teachers have to protest to simply get their fair share. And now we're putting soldiers on our border again.

jalan48

(13,870 posts)
19. Our inability to confront the size of our Defense/War apparatus is a huge problem for our nation.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 03:00 PM
Apr 2018

Money that could be used for social ills in our country is being gobbled up by the MIC. These powerful, entrenched interests seem to remain regardless of which party is in control of the government.

notdarkyet

(2,226 posts)
29. And going into a black hole nobody knows where. I always have thought it a crime and a sin.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 03:59 PM
Apr 2018

Another of Orwell’s warnings. Money would be wasted on expensive military weapons, so it could not be used to help the people.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
23. yes - those are the real powers
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 03:38 PM
Apr 2018

They love how trump is destroying the gov and weakening opposition, normalizing chaos and corruption.

Even when trump goes, there is still a gigantic war to be won.

The fact that is has to be so blatant of a power grab with trump before people wake up (and some not) - makes me really nervous about the chances for success.

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
22. and it's not just trump
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 03:37 PM
Apr 2018

The level of support he has (dismal as the numbers are in general) is still astounding.
High levels - massive corruption, loyal brownshirts.

It DEFINITELY can and will happen if we do nothing.

dameatball

(7,398 posts)
28. There are any number of two-bit wanna be dictators in this country.
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 03:54 PM
Apr 2018

We have been fortunate enough over the decades that most of them failed to get elected and those that did were curbed by more patriotic members of other areas of our government. Things have changed. We have a Republican controlled Congress that allows the ongoing coup and a right-leaning SCOTUS that is either illegally or immorally tied to corporate interests.
It is up to us to defend and rehab what is left of Democracy.

coeur_de_lion

(3,680 posts)
30. Fascism is way past the doorstep
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 07:16 PM
Apr 2018

He's sitting on the sofa watching faux news and he just made himself a sandwich.

rownesheck

(2,343 posts)
32. I'm still hoping
Sun Apr 8, 2018, 10:14 PM
Apr 2018

for a Jonestown type situation for the orange assmunch and his 30 percenters. I would volunteer to clean up the mess. Nice way to thin the herd as well. We're overpopulated as it is. The collective IQ of the nation would immediately spike. Go on kool aid man. Crash through that wall. Oh yeah!

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