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MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:09 AM Apr 2018

The Starbuck's restroom policy sucks. Here's why it exists, though.

In most cities, public toilet facilities are few and far between. Often there is not one near where a person might have need of one. This is the source of a number of problems, since human animals need places to carry out their excretory functions.

Those humans include people who do not have the means to make a purchase in a private business. In most cities, such people are forced to do what they must do, wherever they must do them. That means a wall in an alley or any other place.

Businesses, in order to serve their customers, often have public restrooms available for those customers. That presents a problem for them, since there is a cost to providing those facilities, and their maintenance in a reasonable state of cleanliness. So, many businesses, rightly or wrongly, reserve the facilities for actual customers. Restaurants, bars, and other places where food or drink is served are required to have restrooms.

The real fault in all of this is the failure of cities to provide and maintain public restrooms that are conveniently located in places where people are. Most cities have few such facilities, typically in parks and public buildings. The cost of maintaining them is high, and they sometimes become a nuisance, when used for other reason.

Cities should make it easy for people to find places where they can relieve themselves. They do not. That leads to people attempting to use whatever facilities exist. Those are usually located in businesses.

This is a social justice issue. We fail badly at this particular, and essential service. Very badly.

People have to go. They need places to go. Businesses should not be required to fill that public need. Our cities should. That they do not is a public service failure.

That said, businesses that have public restrooms should not discriminate in their use. Their policies should be universal. Often, that is not the case. That is a social justice failure on their parts.

44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Starbuck's restroom policy sucks. Here's why it exists, though. (Original Post) MineralMan Apr 2018 OP
Mobile Alabama, a city of 200K people, where I reside.... Ferrets are Cool Apr 2018 #1
Most public restrooms are located in OldHippieChick Apr 2018 #2
Well, it probably does. MineralMan Apr 2018 #3
Now we know the inspiration for this classic: robbob Apr 2018 #4
Funny post, but Memphis is probably no better. Ferrets are Cool Apr 2018 #6
It could be worse Submariner Apr 2018 #5
Pay toilets are less common today. MineralMan Apr 2018 #7
Here is sit, broken hearted jpak Apr 2018 #12
"If we provide public restrooms Phoenix61 Apr 2018 #8
In L A 7-11s won't let you use the restroom even if you make a purchase. DemocratSinceBirth Apr 2018 #9
It stinks. Rorey Apr 2018 #10
There may be an exception for small restaurants in NYC. I don't know. MineralMan Apr 2018 #17
McD's doesn't let non customers use the restrooms in NYC. crazycatlady Apr 2018 #38
I've never been in an NYC MacDonalds. MineralMan Apr 2018 #39
"businesses that have public restrooms" left-of-center2012 Apr 2018 #11
Most businesses have this rule. cwydro Apr 2018 #13
one reason to like mc donalds. mopinko Apr 2018 #14
In most subway stations in NYC that even have restrooms, MineralMan Apr 2018 #16
I have never seen clothing vetters at the entrance to department stores. Tipperary Apr 2018 #44
Same with Burger King Hekate Apr 2018 #21
On road trips I would always stop at a fast food over gas stations IronLionZion Apr 2018 #27
Not all McDonalds do whopis01 Apr 2018 #43
idiots! Build good facilities all over the country and hire people to take care of them. demigoddess Apr 2018 #15
In Europe, many places charge directly for using the bathroom. Yavin4 Apr 2018 #18
Some places in Europe the pissoirs are free FarCenter Apr 2018 #20
Not so helpful for the ladies and kids, but definitely better than nothing Hekate Apr 2018 #22
Female urinals exist IronLionZion Apr 2018 #24
This is a very real problem... tonedevil Apr 2018 #19
That is why God invented fast food restaurants. kwassa Apr 2018 #23
Drugs, rape, robbery, and other bad problems happen in public restrooms IronLionZion Apr 2018 #25
agree - KT2000 Apr 2018 #37
I've waited a long time and knocked to use a one person restroom IronLionZion Apr 2018 #42
I believe most municipalities require restrooms in any restaurant Atman Apr 2018 #26
Everybody poops. nt TeamPooka Apr 2018 #28
Indeed they do, and when the need is urgent MineralMan Apr 2018 #29
When I lived near Boston catrose Apr 2018 #30
People are regularly overdosing in public restrooms JPZenger Apr 2018 #31
That is true, of course. MineralMan Apr 2018 #34
"may not," not "should not" Ms. Toad Apr 2018 #32
Such laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, MineralMan Apr 2018 #33
IIRC most German towns, cities have public restrooms with cleaning person on duty bobbieinok Apr 2018 #35
As someone who travels frequently crazycatlady Apr 2018 #36
KnR Hekate Apr 2018 #40
The first time I saw public restrooms was in London treestar Apr 2018 #41

Ferrets are Cool

(21,107 posts)
1. Mobile Alabama, a city of 200K people, where I reside....
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:18 AM
Apr 2018

has NO public restroom facilities. (as far as I can determine)
I would hazard a guess that "most" US cities are just like Mobile in this respect. Honestly, it is disgraceful.

OldHippieChick

(2,434 posts)
2. Most public restrooms are located in
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:23 AM
Apr 2018

city parks or at ball fields. These are usually only open in summer, but at least it is something.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
3. Well, it probably does.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:26 AM
Apr 2018

City Hall has restrooms for the public. Some parks no doubt also do, along with other city-owned buildings where the public is served. Public libraries are an example.

However, such restrooms are not conveniently locate and are scarce.

Worse, there are no direction signs in most cities to indicate where such facilities can be found. In most European cities, you'll find signage providing directions to public toilets. Not in the United States, though. It's one of the reasons this country is unfriendly to both domestic and foreign tourists and visitors.

Ferrets are Cool

(21,107 posts)
6. Funny post, but Memphis is probably no better.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:29 AM
Apr 2018


I know when I visit New Orleans it is not all that easy to find a place to go. Even though it's a vacation destination.

Submariner

(12,504 posts)
5. It could be worse
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:27 AM
Apr 2018

I remember having to go on shopping trips for my mother as a little kid and running into pay toilets everywhere i went. I had to climb under many a bathroom door to save my dimes.



Phoenix61

(17,006 posts)
8. "If we provide public restrooms
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:35 AM
Apr 2018

that will just encourage all those homeless people to congregate there" Said about a local park that doesn't have facilities. They used to put them on a bus and send them out of the county. Sadly, not a lot has changed here. Would you believe they still love Twitler?

Rorey

(8,445 posts)
10. It stinks.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 10:37 AM
Apr 2018

Literally.

We went to NYC last year and I was appalled. I mean, I can see that a business wouldn't want to fund a restroom for non-customers, but a lot don't even provide one for customers. We stopped in for lunch at a nice little place and I couldn't even wash my hands before eating. Fortunately I always have some hand wipes in my purse.

We were shopping in Hard Rock and my daughter-in-law thought she'd use the restroom there. There were actually security guards by the restroom doors.

The stench is enough to keep me from wanting to visit NYC often. I do want to go back and take in a Colbert show one of these days, but we'll see. I did learn that if you look for places that somewhat cater to children (like the M&M store) there are restrooms. There are long lines, and they were messy, but it was better than nothing.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
17. There may be an exception for small restaurants in NYC. I don't know.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:13 PM
Apr 2018

There are guides to public restrooms for most major cities on the internet. They can be helpful, but are often out of date. One of the problems in cities is the small number of places like MacDonalds, gas stations, and other such facilities. If you're dressed reasonably well, you can generally walk into any large hotel or office buildings and use the restrooms on the entry level. If there's a public library, there are always restrooms in those, and libraries are usually walk-in friendly. Otherwise you'll need some money to buy something in most places. Then, you can ask to use the restroom

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
38. McD's doesn't let non customers use the restrooms in NYC.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:49 PM
Apr 2018

They're locked and the cashier has the key.

Aside from the large train stations (Grand Central, Penn), the best place to use the restrooms is Macy's flagship store. Store's way too big for people to notice.

left-of-center2012

(34,195 posts)
11. "businesses that have public restrooms"
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 11:08 AM
Apr 2018

“aye, there's the rub”

They will tell you the restrooms are not public;
they are for their customers.

 

cwydro

(51,308 posts)
13. Most businesses have this rule.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 11:32 AM
Apr 2018

However, gas stations (yuck) usually serve all.

Parks and malls have them too. Grocery stores, as well.

mopinko

(70,135 posts)
14. one reason to like mc donalds.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 11:53 AM
Apr 2018

they maintain clean, open bathrooms all over the world.

this is a frequent topic of conversation on my local everyblock. the fact that the public transit system in chicago has no bathrooms is barbaric.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
16. In most subway stations in NYC that even have restrooms,
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:08 PM
Apr 2018

those restrooms are locked permanently. There are public restrooms in Grand Central Station. Department stores have public restrooms, if you can find them and you're presentable enough to not get thrown out at the entrance.

IronLionZion

(45,462 posts)
27. On road trips I would always stop at a fast food over gas stations
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:30 PM
Apr 2018

any fast food restaurant would be cleaner and better. And then just buy a coffee or water or something to justify it.

whopis01

(3,514 posts)
43. Not all McDonalds do
Wed Apr 18, 2018, 07:54 AM
Apr 2018

I’ve been at a Kimber in big cities where the bathrooms are locked and they will give the key to paying customers only.

demigoddess

(6,641 posts)
15. idiots! Build good facilities all over the country and hire people to take care of them.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:00 PM
Apr 2018

they complain about homeless doing their business in public areas but then have no low cost housing and no public restrooms. Idiots.

Yavin4

(35,443 posts)
18. In Europe, many places charge directly for using the bathroom.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:16 PM
Apr 2018

They have people that maintain the facilities and they charge you about $.50.

 

tonedevil

(3,022 posts)
19. This is a very real problem...
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 12:18 PM
Apr 2018

in cities. There may be some government buildings or parks that have bathrooms for the public, but even those are being closed. There aren't enough, but the kiosks in San Francisco are a really good idea. They get an automatic cleaning after every use, it's like they flush the building. That should be the norm not having facilities just exacerbates the problem.
This post though is piggybacking off the latest Starbucks incident and that is not quite the same issue. It appears Starbucks was not particularly enforcing their policy until the offenders were not white. I think that is why the CEO made the trip to meet the two guys.
To sum it up cities need more public bathrooms and the US has to get a better handle on racial equality.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
23. That is why God invented fast food restaurants.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:14 PM
Apr 2018

Many have side entrances where one can head straight to the bathroom without ever going by the counter. We utilize such facilities on long road trips.

IronLionZion

(45,462 posts)
25. Drugs, rape, robbery, and other bad problems happen in public restrooms
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:23 PM
Apr 2018

which is why the pay option in Europe/Asia is better. They're not even that clean, but there are safety measures and some have staff working there.

It sucks pretty bad for folks who don't have the money but that's a different problem. People could be kind to strangers and give some restroom money to a desperate person waiting outside.

KT2000

(20,584 posts)
37. agree -
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:48 PM
Apr 2018

people also use them to smoke cigarettes. In establishments with one toilet, a line can form waiting for someone to shoot up.

IronLionZion

(45,462 posts)
42. I've waited a long time and knocked to use a one person restroom
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 07:16 PM
Apr 2018

just to enter and find it smelling the unmistakable scent of weed smoke or have a broken syringe on the floor and a definitely high dude stumble out.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
26. I believe most municipalities require restrooms in any restaurant
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:26 PM
Apr 2018

Just basic hygiene. You need a place to wash your hands. We did encounter a Starbucks in Texas that had no restrooms at all. Very surprised...but then again, it was Texas. They open carry guns and liquor, too.

catrose

(5,068 posts)
30. When I lived near Boston
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:49 PM
Apr 2018

The local paper had a weekly column called “Where to Go” about, well, yes. It was a shock to my Southern soul, but it sure was useful.

JPZenger

(6,819 posts)
31. People are regularly overdosing in public restrooms
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 02:53 PM
Apr 2018

Another factor is that people are regularly overdosing in public restrooms. It is not only a problem in restaurants, but also libraries and similar facilities. Having the coroner arrive can be bad for business., not to mention the needles that are left.

One chain is experimenting with special lighting inside their restrooms so it is harder to see veins.

I've also noticed that many buildings in cities are designed with no public restrooms on the first floor. That is an attempt to make it harder for non-customers to regularly come in and use the bathrooms off the street.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
34. That is true, of course.
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:13 PM
Apr 2018

However, that's another matter, really. Clearly the people who were not allowed use of the facilities were clearly discriminated against by an officious manager on account of race. For me, frankly, an establishment that restricts use of its toilets is one I do not patronize, simply on ethical grounds.

I do not, for example, patronize Starbucks. Instead, I patronize a local coffee company's locations, where restrooms are not locked and where I can use those facilities before ordering, if I choose or need to. I notice things like that, and make my choices based on the way the business operates.

I live in an urban area. We have similar problems here. I'm familiar with the problems, but am also adamant about the need for public toilets. When people need a toilet in a city, one should be available nearby, wherever you are. That is not the case, sadly.

I'm a older (70s) white man who normally dresses in reasonably nice clothing. When I ask to use a restroom, it's vanishingly rare that I cannot do so. For many people, that is not the case. It's one of those situations where my privilege is clear. That should not be so.

Ms. Toad

(34,076 posts)
32. "may not," not "should not"
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:03 PM
Apr 2018

If your business is a public accommodation, you are not allowed to use membership in a protected class as the basis for access to the facilities (whether it is an actual policy, or merely pattern and practice that results in discriminatory access).

If you do, you should expect to be sued under one or more of the civil rights laws.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
33. Such laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction,
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:05 PM
Apr 2018

as do the laws regarding places of public accommodation. Use of restrooms and toilets are often not part of those laws.

bobbieinok

(12,858 posts)
35. IIRC most German towns, cities have public restrooms with cleaning person on duty
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:26 PM
Apr 2018

Memory vague. 20+ yrs since I was there.

crazycatlady

(4,492 posts)
36. As someone who travels frequently
Tue Apr 17, 2018, 03:47 PM
Apr 2018

I have noticed that very few states operate public restrooms along the highways, and there's degrees. As a 30 something female traveling alone, I know which ones I trust (safety wise) and which ones I steer clear of. The government owned ones are either a 'rest stop' that has commercial space (fast food, convenience store, gas) or a private 'rest area' that typically has restrooms, (outdoor) picnic tables, and vending machines. For safety reasons, I avoid the latter.

However, in most states I've traveled in, there's no such thing as those. It's usually a truck stop type (Flying J, Pilot, etc) place or a McDonald's along the side of the highway (my general rule of thumb is I want to see the place from the highway for easy on/off access). I generally don't care as long as the bathrooms are clean.

In a city like New York, even places like McDonald's won't let you use the restrooms if you are not a customer (usually they're locked and you have to get a key from the cashier. When I went to the Women's March there this year, I (along with many) went at Penn Station upon arrival and purposely didn't consume any liquids as I knew there'd be no place to go. This is similar in most large cities (whereas if you stop by a suburban/rural McD's, they don't care). This is also a city where one TP company (Charmin?) did pop-up restrooms in Times Square. There's clearly a demand for more restrooms.

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