burning buildings would be everywhere.

Please K&R as well.

My counselor and I were talking about this today, how fucking stupid many people still are.

Stupid and racist.

GOP propaganda tells them racism is ok.

Vote Dem if you want to improve race relations in the US. We need to get the GOP and their racist campaigns and rhetoric out.

Vote Democrat.

Done.

Then they can have the strength of ten men. Probably why they are so good at sports.

but I HAVE heard that "super human strength" isn't needed to have a gun in your car. Just a thought.

I can't wait for them to be the overwhelming minority in all places and all aspects of life in the US. Their opinions and values do not reflect the overall country and they are in for a rude awakening. Wait for the next census. I probably won't see it in my lifetime unfortunately and I won't be able to watch and relish the karma that they will be getting in their future.

where I was a very small minority. I'm as white as Opie Taylor and my high school was 49% Mexican and 39% black. They treated me far better than they get treated even today.

and may all your race-based wishes come true.

I see people in power abuse that power, regardless of race. A litany of lawsuits across the country is proof of that. And cops? Same.

Every women beaten by a man will confirm that fact.

Since Reagan courted racists at Neshoba County, the GOP has inflamed racism to get votes for billionaires. Today, Fox and Limbaugh and other GOP propaganda arms continue to try to stir up racism.


The best thing you can do to improve race relations in America is vote Democratic. Vote for any Democrat. Any Democrat is far better than any republican.

And if we really want to improve racism in America, we must stop the propaganda of Fox and right wing radio.

He's black, early twenties, and he plays football (he says he plays pro, but I'm not sure what that means exactly). Anyway, he is a pretty big dude. I was talking to him once about his car. He said he needed something right away, so he bought a used Hyundai Elantra, but it's been nothing but trouble. Anytime he is late I tease him that he'd better get a decent car. Now I'm reconsidering. A "big", "scary" black dude in a Hyundai doesn't seem nearly as intimidating. I'm white, so I take it for granted that I can drive any vehicle I want. My privilege is showing.

and his black body intimidated the hell out of the LAPD.

Not that you should.

This student is always so nice and thoughtful, a hard worker. It makes me sick to think of him being picked on and potentially hurt (or killed).

It replaced a Pontiac G6 that had 340k when I sold it.

What did they have to say, Solomon?

of black people. You know, completely missing the point like they are want to do.

"You know, completely missing the point like they are want to do."

Thanks, Solomon.

It only takes one scared ass officer at night for my life to end. What are they so afraid of? We do not posses superhuman or are neigh invulnerable.We are human beings.. just.. like.. them. Perhaps that's the problem is that a nice sized chunk of white America simply doesn't see black humanity as humanity at all. We are more than just other, these people act as if we are aliens or some great fucking unknown. From human chattel to boogie men that exist in the bright of the day, darkness of night, in their nightmares and in their warped reality. I don't know about anybody else but this shit is exhausting and it would be nice if they just left us alone and went on about their business.

Sad and so true.

before the cop even gets OUT of his car. Holding my license and ins card & thats it.

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2018, 10:20 AM - Edit history (1)

I have them placed where I can grab them while I'm still pulling over. Once I've stopped that window is 100% down and at night all interior lights are turned on in spring, winter fall, thousand degree heat, -500 cold, whipping rain and everything in between.

Info in my left hand with the right locked hard on the top of the steering wheel. Under no circumstances do I want to be seen/accused "fishing/grabbing/whatever". Also not going to question the ticket I'm about to get for "not signaling, wrong lane change, whatever". Be Be quiet, take the ticket and be thankful the interaction is over and be prepped to pay my glad I didn't get shot today special tax. That is until the next time because there is always going to be a next time.

Doesn't really matter how carefully I drive I know at some point a police car is going to drift in behind me in busy traffic and loiter for a while before going back to their original lane and zooming off. I assume they do that to run my plates or wait for me to do something stupid and see what they might be able to get me on. It's happened so often I slow down my already turtle pace to something that is both legal and slow enough that nobody is staying behind me other than an old jack.

A story about the hour & the way cops are: I have a couple friends who were in a pool league. Whenever they were ready to leave the bar it was usually between 1230-100 am. Owen would call his wife to come get them. On THREE occasions, in a span of 2 months, they got pulled over on the way home. Of course she hadn't been drinking, but the cop said "I saw you weave over the line". he always ended up letting them go. On the 4th time this happened, the cop walked up to the window and said "oh its you guys. Just go ahead and leave." These are all white people in their 50s. Obviously the cop was trolling for drunks just because of the hour. But its STILL not legal to randomly pull over people just to see IF they've been drinking. but they've got the gun & the badge.......

He is at the ready, in case the driver makes a move. It's standard procedure for all pull overs.

I've watched LEOs do that in my mirror as they approach my vehicle many times.

Bullshit.

It's not necessarily "bullshit" and simply labeling it as such doesn't make it so.

Your slip is showing.

back at you..Your limitations are showing.

bullshit! In all the times I've been stopped in my 30-plus years of driving, and all the times I've been a passenger in a car that's been stopped in the 45-plus years I've been an aware passenger, that has NEVER happened. EVER. And I've never heard any whites who've talked about their stops mention it either. Because we're white. And know who I HAVE heard talking about it happening to them? POC drivers. Your post is nothing but an attempt to excuse the inexcusable.

Has NEVER happened when I’m at the wheel.

In the 22 years my husband and I have been together:
He is the better driver, and follows the speed limit, and road rules (complete stop/signaling lane change) much closer than I do.
He has been stopped for traffic violations 5 times without me. 3 times with me while he’s been driving.
I’ve been stopped for traffic violations 1 time without him with me, and 2 times when he’s been riding with me.
Since it’s second hand info, I won’t discuss the 5 times without me, BUT all 3 times with me as a passenger, the officer was abrupt, obviously apprehensive, and had his hand at the ready similar to the photo. 2 of those three times the officer asked for and searched our vehicle.

The one speeding ticket I got without him with me in 22 years, the officer was pleasant, friendly, hand nowhere near his holster. The 2 times I was stopped with my husband riding passenger, still no hand on the holster, but one of those 2 times the officer was obviously more interested in who was riding with me than with doing his damn job and just giving me the f’n ticket.

Same thing at the airports. I have NEVER been pulled aside on a “random” check. My husband gets “random” checked around 1 out of every three times we fly on average, and almost every single time we’ve flown internationally returning to the US.

Take a guess what my skin color is, and what my husbands skin color is.

You are white and never had a hand on gun experience when stopped. Your husband, let me guess a person of color did.

Boom.

Men of all races are more inclined than women to react violently, so I'm guessing the cop's reaction to her vs her husband may be based on gender rather than race.

And here we thought that all us black men and women complaining about profiling and disparate treatment by the police were actually credible, when it turns out we just didn't understand that it has nothing to do with race but is all based on a rational and non-racist distinction between the genders.

Thanks for clearing that up for us!

It. must. All. Be. About. Race. All. The. Time -- Thanks for clearing that up for us

The fact of the matter is that it is about race. Get over it.

The fact of the matter is that it's more than race -- You "get over" that.

Are you sure you are?

threatened by women than men. That's pretty much a given. You must have 'an agenda' to deny that simple fact.

And to make an 'honest' comparison with regards to 'treatment by cops', you need a properly 'controlled' scenario, and a large-enough sample size, in the scientific/statistical sense.

I'm not SAYING that it's not ALSO true that cops aren't apt to be more inherently suspicious of black folks, cause that's pretty obvious as well ... and Latino/Latina folks are very likely a 'close 2nd' when it comes to automatic suspicion levels. I believe that's true as well.

But I'm also saying it's scientifically flawed to draw conclusions based on 'experiments' that lack proper 'controls'. You simply cannot properly compare how cops react based on race ... when you're also introducing the variable of how they react to women vs. how they react to men ... it's too many variables. Not to mention we're talking about a sample size of 2 in this particular instance, which is also problematic.

I'd be willing to bet that if the wife looked like Janelle Monae, and the husband looked like Charles Manson, we'd see the exact opposite in terms of the 'statistics' that the 2 of them have gathered.

Anecdotes ... are not 'proven facts'. They may POINT to them, they may 'turn out to be right' ... but they shouldn't be relied upon on their own.

All I see is a picture of a police officer interacting with a black motorist while having his hand on his firearm with absolutely no other context

Apparently to many posters this must mean only two things;

1) The cop is racist because he would only behave this way with a black motorist.

2) The cop is scared and needs a different occupation


Of course, since no one really knows who the driver is and why he was stopped, the motivations of the officer, or he behaves in similar situations with other motorists, these are all based on pure speculation with little basis in fact.

It is however a fact and not speculation that routine traffic stops are extremely dangerous for law enforcement with multiple officers shot and killed every year.

And thats all this is; a snapshot of a moment during a traffic stop. Why was he pulled over? Did he say anything? Does he not have an ID? Is the car tagged? There are 100 different questions that can only be answered by the report.

I'm not a PoC, and I've been fucked with by cops, and been with other people who were fucked with by cops for being out-of-town long-haired hippies or whatever, and guess what that has to do with discussion?

NOTHING.

You don't get to pretend that just because a lot of cops are often total assholes, that race doesn't make it much much worse to the extent of being life-threatening and not get called out for it.

You don't get to pretend that authoritarianism and racism aren't as tightly wound in this country as two things can be. You don't get to play dumb, or try to use the exception to prove the rule. Not without getting called out for it.

If I had nothing better to do, I would just call you out for all of your posts on this thread. Instead, I'll probably get this post deleted and locked out of this thread. But I would rather call out (barely veiled) racism on a website that purports to disallow it and get deleted than to sit here and watch you do this.

What the hell, indeed.

Stating my opinion even when it may not conform completely to that of everyone else?
It's always easier to express agreement, to "go along to get along,", so no, I don't "enjoy" disagreement, but I'm not necessarily here for "fun".so much as to express my views on issues I think are important Last I checked, we were still allowed to do that here.

PS. If you're going to "call out" people here as "racist" because they view the gesture of a cop at a traffic stop as cautionary rather than racist, then I think, judging by the number here who agree with me, that you have your work cut out for you.

... and they are either hallucinating or "misunderstanding" every experience they've had that seems like their race could have been a factor in their treatment?

Because science backs them up about things like, say, people thinking a black person of the same size and muscle structure is both larger and more threatening/dangerous than a white one, even if it suggests they've internalized some of the perception bias themselves. As I said in my other post. And just that "small" bias in perception would naturally affect NUMEROUS situations, including police encounters, to the detriment of PoC.

It's not cool. It's not just "expressing your opinion". It's making DU an unsafe environment for PoC. And the bottom line rule of the site is not to make DU suck.

...Oh, that's right..You can't, because I never said or even implied such a thing. .

Don't like my posts?..Ignore is your friend...Beyond that, I'd suggest you take off your blinders, and do your part to "not
make DU suck".

I'm done with you now, so please make yourself at home on my Big I list. Buh bye.

Is just one example.

Take off MY blinders??? What the hell, indeed!

Fine, put me on ignore and ignore the science. But no, I will keep calling it out if I see more of this from you. Not to get through your blinders since you've excluded me from your world, but to help the PoC on DU know not everyone agrees with your dismissal of their life experiences.

There IS "intersectionality" -- yes, size and gender may modify a situation, and it's white females like me who get the privilege benefits from seeming small and non-threatening.

But here's some science. Because apparently "black" = "big". Even when there's no difference.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2017/03/black-men-threatening.aspx

The same ones who will NEVER not ONCE in their lifetimes be a victim of racism

by a male of any race and are thereby inclined to understand the cop's caution.

Southside of Chicago, the police do approach pull overs that way.
Northwest Indiana too. Hell, there are areas of Indiana where the meth trade is so bad they routinely pull over white people just to "check" them out.

suffer at the hands of others, including law enforcement, but I’m a middle-aged white woman - I might not even be middle-aged since I turn 60 in a few weeks - and I live in a rural area where the police have pulled me over and twice walked up to my car with right hands on their pistol. Once for speeding, once for an expired license plate tag. Of course, I honestly don’t fear for my life the way POC may. I have, however, had to tell an officer that my crazily barking dogs are harnessed and belted in the car and will not help them, because I don’t want my dogs shot for barking or being “a threat.”

Feel free to call me out if I sound like I’m whitesplaining. I just mean to share my experience.

It happened on the Freeway in Detroit in the early seventies. I was a twenty-something driving alone and pulled over for speeding.

There were two policemen. One came to my window and the other I saw in the mirror standing behind my car and to the right side with gun drawn. He held the gun with both hands pointed downward.

I got a speeding ticket for 65 in a 55 zone. As I remember, both cops were white. I am not sure - I was distracted by the gun.

Since you "never heard any whites who've talked about it either" it doesn't happen?
How about 'talking to'' some of the whites on this thread to whom It HAS happened?...For God's sake, the cop isn't even drawing his gun let alone threatening anyone with it...Talk about a mountain out of a mole hill.
.

here if it is making a "mountain out of a mole hill?" And he may not be "officially" drawing his weapon, but his hand placement indicates an immediate readiness to do so.

Consider that we know nothing about this encounter beyond the moment in time caught on camera...We don't know why the driver was stopped or what words were exchanged.

The fact that most cop killings occur at traffic stops might serve as additional information as to why the cop might be "at the ready".

away. I wonder what the gentleman was stopped for..."driving while Black" most likely.

and you do know what they say about assumptions, right?

For no goddamned reason. Now you obviously see a legitimate reason. I wonder what it is.

he fears another motherboard might shoot him at a stop, which DOES happen....For fuck's sake, he's not POINTING the gun, he's just being cautious.

Or more precisely, considered to be white.

You're male and not white, or, just as precisely, considered to be white.

to exist THIS time.

Or THIS time.

Or THIS time.

Because they're the experts on what racism is and isn't and when it does and doesn't take place. And they know it's not happening THIS time. But they'll let us know when it really does occur.

In the meantime, just shut up and stop. making. everything. about. race.

is very clear. I have been stopped before with my big almost 7 foot tall hubs...not once did the cop have his hand on his gun...my brother in law was a cop in New York...and not once did he do this either...my brother in law was a cop in the the worst part of the Bronx and never fired his gun in 20 years because he had a brain and was not a would be murderer. These cops should go...they are too afraid to do their jobs properly.

that LEOs use?

It doesn't look like his gun is partially out of the holster to me.

How many black men are shot within minutes of an encounter with leo?

And the picture doesn't show one, no matter how badly you want it to. His trigger finger is extended straight down the side of the holster, and the weapon is fully seated. Pintobean is correct.

A fifth bullshit that is.

Never been approached on any of the many traffic stops I have enjoyed in forty plus years driving by any single-handed LEO. None ever approached or waited on documents with a hand anywhere around the holster. None. Never.

Fucking Bullshit.

Thank you BBG.

Fucking bullshit.

Gender is a factor, as is area.

You say that it's bullshit and that cops don't pull or grab their firearms. Well, if you're correct, then what has happened to me? My husband has occasionally bring it uo again, often cussing & shouting SEVERAL times shouldn't have ever happened. You see, I KNOW how that man feels because as a NEW BRIDE sitting in our car with my WHITE husband at the River, what explains the instant explains the instantaneous appearance of at least 4 cruisers, unimaginably blinding torches, at LEAST 6 of them, with at least 3 of them attached to either rifles or shotguns pointed at me but not my husband? BTW, I'm about 5'5" tall, about 135 lbs.

My Husband, you might ask? Well, he's about 6'6" 300-315 lbs...and before you tell me that they were pointed at the both of us- the "officers that were at the front the car were pointed to ware the left of the car. My husband was FURIOUS that they acted as if he'd just materialised out of the thin air. Luckily, we'd JUST picked up our marriage certificate from the POB we had that time. My husband asked them what the f&ck were they doing training their weapons on his new Bride. The one nearest my window KEPT HIS RIFLE TRAINED ON ME, while he began to ARGUE with my husband.

As I mentioned earlier, we had JUST received the certificate while running errands & had the partially opened envelope with the cert in it. Hubs snatched the certificate out of the envelope & practically jammed it into his face. It was then & ONLY then that they lowered their guns, (Remember now, those arms were ONLY pointed at me!), Said that they thought I was some prostitute they on the lookout for, ( Oh yeah, it was FULLY dark. around 10 pm... next the Sacramento River, us kissing & hugging & NO lights at that area of the River), mumbled something in the same zip code of an apology getting back in their "crown Vics" & disappearing so fast that I had a fleeting thought wondering if I ACTUALLY had a number of guns pointed at me by some sumbitch, ignorant,lying cops?


I was so horrified & livid that I've never stopped at that place near the River. However, you say that what happens to that young man, me & countless POC & poor folks, is just a manner of jumping the gun, (pun intended), delusional & mistaken? Right? Remember that my husband had 0 guns pointed at him, oh no! They were ALL trained on me or was I hallucinating? Explain to me how what happened to us is completely normal & both my husband & I misinterpreting the event. Please, oh please convince me that we misjudged those LEO's & we shouldn't trust our own eyes.
Oh yeah, take your time, I'll wait..

what I DO deny is the fact of its being the ONLY, or even most important factor in every instance. -- Have a nice day.

P.S. I'm sure you'd be uninterested in the fact that, like Too-Hat, my very white spouse had a gun DRAWN on him at a traffic stop for no apparent reason. Again, enjoy your day.

this was absolutely normal, run of the mill LEO behaviour...so, you KNEW that this is abnormal, destructive & all too often, DEADLY actions on the part of the TAXPAYER SUPPORTED LEO'S while trying to convince your fellow DUER's that it these event were the result of misinterpretation, obfuscation & some mythological & unfair negative bias against the police ? And YOU'RE A POC? SMDH. BYE, FELICIA!!

and I'm not responsible for misconceptions.you may have...That said, I'd suggest you check the thread as, quite a few others here agree that this cop's gesture was cautionary the rather than racist, ESPECIALLY given the data showing that couldop murders happen most frequently at traffic stops,, so Bye Felicia back at ya.

Don’t be rationalizing this bullshit with me. I got the privilege and eyes that can see. I see it and know it for what it is. Racism, implicit and explicit, exists.

Unlike the driver in the OP's photo, he had a gun DRAWN on him.
..Have a nice day.

To what?

The idiot brigade is going to pile on you, but it won't make you any less right.

Then approach with caution till he feels safe. Its happened to me on many occasions, Happens when I get pulled over near or in local cities. Call me whatever the fuck you want, In my 50 years of driving Ive beened pulled over by the coolest and the nastiest cops. BTW, Ive had a weapon pulled on me twice, Once in DC, and twice in New Orleans which is a fucking war zone anyway IMO.

Perhaps where you live that happens. Perhaps you're extrapolating from your own experiences and claiming that it's standard procedure. My experiences differ from yours, but I'm not going to extrapolate from that.

That photo certainly looks to me as though that big strapping cop is afraid of that black man, who looks very much like someone getting the requested papers out for the cop.

The cop isn't even drawing his gun, let alone pointing it.
As other posters have noted, cops have good reasons to be cautious when stopping cars -- They've been shot and killed while doing so.. Even a "big strapping cop" can be brought down by a bullet.. Let's get real.

that black men have a different experience with their treatment by police officers. To deny that is to be unreal.

This discussion is about that issue. So, do you deny that black men are generally treated differently that other people by police officers?

Answer that, and we can continue the discussion.

not being real are those who've never been a victim of violent crime and/ or have never served in law enforcement. To deny their experience is equally "unreal". This discussion is about everyone involved, btw, you don't get to narrow the parameters' of what's discussed.

Did you know that traffic stops were the # 1 sites of cop killings?....Answer that and we can continue the discussion.

The number of people shot BY cops. Then we can talk.

criminals and compare that to the number shot by cops?...The point being that cops may shoot someone in defense of another, not just themselves. Let's talk then.

They were looking for someone who apparently used to live there.

The cop who knocked stood close, but off to the side. The other stood farther back with his hand in that "resting" position. While talking, I made sure to open the door wide to indicate I had nothing to hide. The second cop stayed with his hand on his gun the whole time. Oh -- and I'm white.

I can imagine that it's standard procedure any more for cops to be at the ready in ANY situation involving uncertainty.

===============

For Black or White?

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.

Just thought we'd stick to the actual image rather than a a fact- free paranoid projection of it.

It was an eye opener.

Is that picture on the Web? If so, my belief is the cop should lose his job. The black guy could not be any less threatening. With the cop having his gun coming out of the hoster, any mistake by the black guy like accidentally dropping his license and reaching down to pick it up, can result in the black guy being killed for no reason at all.

If cops are that scared, they need to get the fuck out of police work.

"If cops are that scared, they need to get the fuck out of police work."

I've said those words 100+ times. You're 100% correct.

The reactions to this photo are blowing way out of proportion. :

His gun is not even drawn, let alone pointed at the man. As some here have mentioned, cops have good reason to be cautious at traffic stops -- They've been known to be shot and KILLED at them..
The cop is doing nothing wrong and does not, on the basis of this photo, deserve to lose his job.

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2018, 01:24 AM - Edit history (1)

"The most dangerous time in his life is when he gets pulled over by a police officer.