we're are own worst enemies

we are dumbfuckistan

... a desire to live up to our expectations.

They forget how deadly serious our situation is. And noble defeats are still defeats.

WE need to fix this. Our opponents and enemies will not hesitate to use our principles against us, while ignoring their own.

Because it happens again & again on the left, while much more heinous crimes go unpunished on the right.

Not okay with ME, mind you, but half the shooting of our FIGHTERS is a bullet in the back.

Bill Maher (the misogynist) had it right last week. And with all the good Micheal Moore does, he catches shit here for not meeting the standard. These are just two voices that fight for our cause, but get blasted here regularly.

We are all going to die.

no one can ever measure up.

I'm sure if people pulled out random things that any one of us said 10 or more years ago, they could find some stuff that, by today's standards, is unacceptable.

But when the right wing starts in on someone, there are also plenty of people on our side who eagerly nod and say "yes, we'll purge that one!". Then there is another and another and pretty soon, we've silenced ourselves. All they have to do is give it a nudge and our side will do their work for them.

Word to the herd.

Some want to shred the Democratic Party and jump on any new bandwagon that come along. They learn NOTHING from the tragic results that they bring about, them buying into Nader in 2000 led to Bush, thousands of dead Americans, a million dead Iragis, trillions of debt, near depression. But once the messes they helped create get partly cleaned up, they get on their high horses and start the same old shit, with the same consequences. I am to the point where I want them to start their own fucking party and leave the Democratic Party.

when it is not an organic process but driven, pushed, manipulated by right-wingers. They have gotten very good at leveraging our own values against us, and suffer not themselves from being openly hypocritical when convenient.

I don't know why progressives are held to a higher standard when the Republicans are held to the lowest of standards and can do and say whatever

Which is bull shit in any iteration in which you might encounter it.

Is she on my team? One of those posts said gay men like children. Even though I'm a straight guy I find that offensive. I also somehow manage to not find two guys kissing icky.

Just because I might agree with somebody on most things, that doesn't mean I'm not going to call them out when wrong, nor would I expect them to not call me out.

If Joy Reid said those things and lied about it, that's on her. She had previously apologized for making poor comments in the past and people got over it. These newly found (but pointedly not newly written) things will fade if she has evidence the posts were faked.

If you think she is, then let her instead of trying to bring her down.

GOP backed Trump because he was running VS Hillary. MOST had no other reason NONE

Most GOP blasted Trump all the way till he got the nomination. Once he was the one going against Hillary they all got in line.

Now you are saying we need to get in line with Reid only because she is against Trump


HOW IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT THAN WHAT THE GOP DID?

We’ll keep losing as long as we keep throwing our allies under the bus. Like a ninja said in the movie The Hunted, “You fight for honor; I fight to win.”

We are better than that

You do know the last President was a Democrat right? And most of the time 2 term presidents are replace by someone from the other party right?

And this we’re better than that sediment is what split the party in the last election.

Did you just compare Joy to Shitler? Not even the "mindset" is comparable. I'm just surprised you didnt find a way to work Hitler or Nazis into this.

Nothing "brought" us Joy other than MSNBC hired her and defending her is absolutely nothing like GOPee Congress members enabling the Pussy Grabber in Chief.

Even if she actually wrote those, what if she realizes she was wrong and no longer thinks that way. But, once again, we have people who latch their teeth into the carcass and can't let go.

She would be forgiven


But to claim archive.org was hacked instead of owning up will turn people against you forever

When we reviewed the archives, we found nothing to indicate tampering or hacking of the Wayback Machine versions. At least some of the examples of allegedly fraudulent posts provided to us had been archived at different dates and by different entities.

Hacks that happens on several systems over the course of several years

Archive.org pulled those posts multiple times on different dates and by different entities

So unless it was time traveling hackers her story does not stand up

...of whatever their fevered imaginations can concoct. They will never forgive, and they will never realize that ONCE AGAIN Democrats and our alleged allies are being ratfckd.

I don't know which is correct, but you seem quite certain. So, I'm owning uncertainty as to the absolute truth.
That makes one of us.

Link.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

who constantly need to one-up and out-purity the other.

So fucking tired of it

stirring shit up against Democrats just to keep Republicans/RWNJs in power. Fact remains, they thrive when Repubs are in power, not so much when Democrats are.
You'd think they'd unite behind the largest Party on the Left in order to defeat the rightwingism on the right, but nooooo. They work harder to bring down Democrats wherever the fuck they can.

That's some seriously bizarre lines of reasoning there.

Have fun in your fantasy world.

Or do you just know the ones that you have created in your own head that exist nowhere?

OK, there might be a handful that want it to get really bad to spur a revolution. But I know a lot of socialists and none of them like or wanted Trump.

They agree with Trump and Bernie on TPP, Greenwald on immigration and don't give one shit about racial justice.

"They agree with Trump and Bernie on TPP, Greenwald on immigration and don't give one shit about racial justice."

Where there's a wedge, there's a way!

F em all.

They want fucking chaos so that they get the revolution they want. The problem is the morons don't realize things don't work that way, they help elect a Bush or Trump with their attacks on democrats, the monsters get into office, lots of the most vulnerable in society get hurt or die of neglect, the sane elements of society elect a leader to clean things up and the assholes that claim to be the truest progressives do nothing but snipe against and undermine that leader.

Explain the Socialists' hatred for the Democratic Party and Democrats.
Explain Susan Sarandon's "Some people think Donald Trump will bring the revolution immediately".

And no, it's not fantasy-world thinking.
It's historical world thinking.
Socialists helped Hitler into power.
Read and weep, then tell me they weren't trying to emulate the same tactic in the 2016 U.S. presidential elections:

http://isj.org.uk/divided-they-fell-the-german-left-and-the-rise-of-hitler/

One of the reasons Hitler was able to come to power in 1933 Germany was that the Communists fought the socialists, who fought the trade unionists, who fought the communists. The German right was able to cultivate the enmities among the German left to keep them from power.

Same thing we're seeing here today.

They fought each other, but were tortured and died together

I'm sick of it, too. This attacking of allies is an odd strategy. We know who the enemy is. Focus.

F the lynch mob!

Conservatives are like a well done steak with ketchup. Liberals are more tender and come in diverse flavors

Unless we want to be like Free Republic, shouldn't we take the opportunity to discuss when our own make mistakes? Do we have to blindly just support everyone that is a Dem? Can't we say that we like a lot of what a person does but one thing needs to change?

Unless we recognize when one of our own does something that we want to see stopped in society, we have no moral high ground to tell those that aren't "us" to stop doing it. If we create situations why our own doing it isn't a bad thing, then nobody will listen when we want that thing to be eliminated in society.

Joy is a progressive voice, for sure. But she said some horribly homophobic things in the past. If she just owned it and didn't come up with this odd "hacked" story that the internet archive shows is pretty much not a thing, then this story would be going in a different direction. She could actually use that to talk about how she has grown and why she has grown and how others can grow, too. But, no, she hasn't done that and now I either have to support her 100% or get out?

Nah. Fuck that.

She has already apologized for the old things she wrote. All she is saying is that this new list does not look like some of the old things and may be been hacked or manipulated.

She has explicitly NOT apologized for these posts. Instead, she wants us to believe that someone hacked her blog--written when she was, at most, a regional persona--within days of it being posted (which we know because of the screen capture by the internet archive). Which is just way too much conspiracy theory for me to get behind.

'Cause that's an insane position for her to take. "I didn't write those things, but I'm sorry I wrote them."

I've read the "whole fucking letter." What part do you think says she apologizes for those things she claims she didn't write.

Those attacking Reid should just admit that they've swallowed the RW bait.

Really?

It's a smear job whether Joy was hacked or not. What is it about that, that you guys don't get?

1. She needs to own up for what she said.
2. How is it a smear job if she actually said that?

If we found blogs from 10 years ago of a Republican saying those things, would we just let them slide?

None of her friends, family, associates, colleagues or blog followers recall seeing them at the time they were supposedly posted. And they have no replies, on a blog where literally every other post she made received replies.

And they were "discovered" by an anonymous twitter feed that supports a certain non-Democrat. And Reid's security experts say the archive shows signs of hacking.

And finally, the "Joy is evil" narrative is being pushed hard by entities which are not friendly to Democrats.

Because those didn't "just appear." There is a date stamp for when the archive spiders capture the page. It's just that someone just found them.

I'm not saying she is evil. But she said some pretty homophobic crap in the past. She admitted to some of it. These aren't out of line with here Crist statements.

Malcom Nance said it best: If it's on the internet, it can be hacked. Period.

If given a choice between believing a well-respected public figure, with also well-known & well respected opinions, along with the dozens of well-known, well-respected public figures & ordinary people who have followed her & are supporting her, versus an anonymous source with dubious connections contradicting her with unfounded, unvetted & unverified accusations, well fuck - I'm going with Joy.

Because I'm not an idiot.

Of Course Everything on the Internet is true!

can we be more "present-focused"- that is, focused more on what our folks are saying in blogs on air NOW instead of dredging up decade-old blog entries that may not reflect how they feel now? I don't know if she was hacked or not but somebody at least went to the effort of finding these blog posts and obviously dredging them up to stir things up all of the sudden.

They have to shit stir so the nutjobs can stay in power.

+1,000

So fucking tired of it! Honestly, I am almost finding it more frustrating than the bullshit that we are getting from the right-wing.

We need to support our Al Frankens and Joy Reids.

Our opponents know our weaknesses and will use them to destroy our solidarity and our leadership. We can't let them do this.

Seriously. This is so infuriating.

POINT TAKEN! It's a major drawback here and elsewhere.

learning nothing after Nov. 2016.

are going to agree on everything. That's one of the weaknesses of a 2party system. There are inevitably going to be factions.

Take it all in and make your own judgment. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and even the right to rush to judgment one way or the other. We aren't zombies and toes will get stepped on but really the only thing that matters is what the majority is thinking.

We tend not to walk in lock-step with authority and automatically do what we're told. We question, we investigate, we evaluate, we seek alternatives. If we didn't, we'd basically be Republicans.

They think they are going to take over without paying their dues. The extreme right and extreme left will never win. They need to work to get Dems elected. Then when we get electoral wins they can work to change the Dem Party. It's as if they learned nothing in Nov. 2016.

or the worn out old playbook being followed.... Rich, corporate backed, candidates are birds of a feather whether those feathers be red or blue.

Last weekend her programs were tremendous. The right and their supporters around the world must find her an enormous threat.

Unless they're committed a crime I won't talk against lefties who publicly fight for us every day.

Not that anyone gives a crap but this is my first and last word on this issue.

As though their's is not a glass house.

Your statement appears on the front page of DU with no information inside the box as to what you are raging about. This is a problem with so many on this board. The use of pronouns is also rampant. If you do not give a noun, pronouns confuse.

When I first read your statement I thought a Rethug had gotten his web URLs confused and was posting to the wrong site.

Unless you run this site, you don't have the right or the power to force someone to "get the fuck out". If a person has a good argument they should have the same right to RESPECTFULLY state it as you.

And just because a team member says something doesn't mean I have to support them. I am a Democrat and I support the principals of the FDR/progressive wing of the Democratic Party. You may support the Corporate wing. I will disagree with you but I will support your right to your say to my final breath.

In many circles liberal and left are the same thing.

Would much rather have the left in our party than those Democrats who vote for Republican policies and nominees.

It's the right in our party that freaks me out.

I didn't even know there way anything going on about Joy Reid until a few hours ago.

But one pair of questions raised here stuck in my mind.

1.) "What's the difference if it was ten years ago?"
and then
2.) "Wouldn't we care if it were a Republican?"

I'll start with #2: Of course WE would care if it were a Republican. If it were some comment that could cause them trouble today, I have no doubt we would trumpet it from the highest hills while THEY try to ignore it. The difference here is that THEY are trumpeting this from the highest hills, and instead of ignoring it, WE are lighting a campfire and doing a war dance around it. Why? Human sacrifice back in style this week or something?

Then there is #1. I haven't even seen what this was all about, so I don't know what her supposedly offensive comments were. From a few descriptions, it appears she made some comments including not wanting to watch Brokeback Mountain because she doesn't want to watch gay sex, something like that? I haven't seen the film, but I did see something here in Germany called "Taxi Zum Klo," a raunchy film with graphic depictions of gay sex (written, starring and directed by a gay man in Berlin). It came out almost 40 years ago. This film was so raunchy, it wasn't cleared for uncut viewing in England until THIRTY years after it was made. And yeah, it took an effort for me to sit through it, even though I've always had close gay friends since way before the film came out. But hell, I never asked to follow them to bed any more than they asked me. To each his (or her) own. But to construe this as some kind of "anti" attitude is just so much BS.

Maybe I've got this wrong, but it does indeed seem like Al Franken all over again. Plant some kind of seed from some out-of-context thing that isn't anything remotely like it is being made out to be, and let the piranhas feast on their brothers and sisters that had the bad luck to get a scratch that is bleeding. FRanken didn't mount a forceful defense because he knew the "allegations" against him were total fabrications, and didn't feel a need to defend himself against something he knew to be false in the first place. How was he to know that thirty plus Democratic Senators would be gullible enough to fall for it? I don't know what's going on here with Joy Reid, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out it was something similar.

Just be prepared, everyone. Rachel Maddow likes to vacation on Cape Cod, where we do a lot of whale watching. Some enterprising Republican blogger will surely find a video clip of Rachel, prior to some upcoming meal, commenting that she is "so hungry she could eat a whale." Suddenly, I promise you, there will be posts going viral claiming that Rachel Maddow is a secret fan of whale meat, and that she is on film supporting the cruel whaling expeditions of fleets from Japan, Iceland and Norway. Just wait for the calls on DU for her to resign from her show, and slink back in shame to the Berkshires, never to be heard from again. Think that's over the top? That is how they do it. Resignations for nothing and bad reps for free.

Stinky is 100% correct. This is not over until we stop falling for it. Accessory to murder after the fact also goes for character assassination, as far as I'm concerned.

the left lives on principles. they/we don't blindly follow the party line without concern for the truth. we will condemn unacceptable behavior regardless of who said or did it. we stand on principles. many of us believe that right and wrong are more important than left or right.

the other side, they blindly follow the party line, and have no concern for right or wrong. the other side is always wrong and their side is always right.

PERSONALLY, I believe this is a STRENGTH of the left. While it does cause "problems" sometimes, the fact that we are drawn to this side because of our principles and we are much more open-minded and objective than the other side, ultimately it is a good thing and I would not want the left to be filled with blind sheep.

if you say "get the fuck out. you're not helping" to people who want to know the truth, i think what you are saying is not helping either.

THIS.

who feels that way

Joy? I have no doubts. She hurt herself by how she handled things. She redeemed herself today by apologizing.

Today I am told Tom Brokaw is one of ours. I obviously missed that. He's never apologized for kissing up to the bushies who killed millions of people.

Democrats and progressives don’t tend to be pack animals like Republicans. We are complex creatures who analyze, interpret, chew things over and honestly want the best for all.

That said, we could benefit greatly from some additional self-discipline.

In case someone hasn't noticed, many in most groups don't practice by the complete doctrine they are instructed to. And to think any different for a political persuasion is kind of foolish

George Carlin on Reptilian Brain & F.A.R.T. War