guns and the failure to make people safe.

The best line
Living abroad helped me see that life is not a race or a competition.

And a boat in the Caribbean would be just
fine with me!!

Fascinating read.

One of those lands where women aren't expected to marry. She certainly didn't contribute anything to any of thousands of communities she could have become part of here.

Biased malcontents are always tedious, but far worse when they are able to express it well enough to be taken seriously.

but made different choices and didn't end up with the limited outlook for which she holds "America" responsible -- Biased malcontent, indeed.

Hillary, which I'd bet good money she would. That dysfunction is all over this.

I mean, that she would not vote Democratic. Seems she approves of the other country having laws that most of us would support.

as if failure to ever go more than ten miles from the random scrap of earth you happened to be born on is some kind of intrinsic virtue.

People have a right to have a look around and settle where they are happy. And acknowledging that the way the US does things isn't a system that guarantees happiness for everyone doesn't make you a "malcontent". It's the only way that progress can ever be achieved.

I emigrated from the US fifteen years ago and would never consider going back. Where I live now, I have free single payer health care, a 35 hour work week, almost free university, six weeks paid vacation a year plus another two weeks work of statutory holidays, 80% of the power is renewable, we've had female heads of state for more than thirty years, no nuclear weapons, no prison industrial complex, no homelessness, no school massacres, evangelicals are roundly shouted down or laughed out of the room when they try to stick their noses into politics or schools, no Fox News, strong unions and a work culture that acknowledges and values work-life balance. And I pay less in taxes than what I did in the US. And I get to work on climate change mitigation without having to argue with ignoramuses brainwashed by the extraction industry into thinking it doesn't exist.

Why do you think the appropriate response to someone seeking out a better life for themselves is to scold them and act like somehow its some massive betrayal to live anywhere other than America? By that measure, the majority of people on earth are traitors who shouldn't be taken seriously.

The "American Dream" is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And the beauty of it is that America isn't the only place (or even nowadays, empirically, the best place) to achieve those things for many people. So why insist that anyone who doesn't want to live in America must be a "biased malcontent", make snarky remarks about how she couldn't possibly have found a better place to live and act like she somehow owes the random country of her birth her entire life's efforts regardless of her own happiness and anything that she might reasonably expect to get in return like healthcare, education or the opportunity to rise out of poverty without having to work herself to death?

Last edited Fri Apr 27, 2018, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Cambridge Analytica, and others as one of those of weak convictions whose faults and vulnerabilities are used against them. It's not enough for someone to SAY she wants universal healthcare, after all. She actually has to vote for it.

You think I'm being a busybody, Meadowlander, but she and you are perfectly welcome to live wherever they want with my blessings. I'd like to try it myself. That's not it.

I'm stretching here, of course, but whatever this one imagined she didn't like here was wherever she landed as well, and bad differences as well as the good ones she trumpets. Even France is more authoritarian than the U.S., or how about Spain? My DIL lived in France for years and says it's a nice place to visit, but not too often. She'd never want her children to go to French schools, some cultural differences affecting the children very unacceptable to her. Every nation has its virtues and problems.

And does this one imagine "multinational conglomerates" like the one she became part of of her own free will are American? Please note the "multinational." They're all over Europe also, no doubt passes multinational corporate facilities whenever she crosses town.

There's no sign this one's become any wiser.

And if this particular person didn't want people to evaluate her and find her lacking, she shouldn't have sent her hypocritical, insulting story about the U.S. out into the world. To find its way to me. Did she imagine everyone would admire her archetypal clueless insults as she adopted the virtues of other peoples for herself, or was she just intending to...well, be insulting? Could this by any chance be a backhanded slap at people she left behind here who don't admire her choices as she wishes they would? They've all read it, of course, or at least heard it all before.

"I’m sad that I cannot share the protection and benefits I enjoy daily with my American loved ones." Uhuh. She also can't pick up some Ensure on the way home for grandma or watch her while her mom gets a much-needed afternoon out. Nor was she here to vote for the Democrats in 2016, who wanted to make caretakers who had to stop working eligible for Social Security benefits, among other needed assistance.

"So while I chose to leave it, if others don’t want to, I now try to encourage them to fight for change." That must have been a hoot coming from someone who abandoned any responsibilities other people feel they have to their families, friends, communities, betterment of nation.

Well, this was fun, or at least was something to do while my husband finished tying a fly. Time for us to get to something else now. Good night.

Considering that this site alone shows one hardly need be a "flag waving" provincial who's "failed to go more than 10
miles from the scrap of earth yoi happened to be born on" to live in America.
It is a large country, so, sorry if the 'scrap' you or she were born on didn't provide a broader perspective, but that's hardly the case
for the nation as a whole. That said, your long angry post is suggestive of a very sore touched nerve.

I’m a US citizen who grew up in Mexico and lived there the first 25 years of my life. If I weren’t 70 years old and single I would retire there in a second.

Xenophobia is alive and well, even on DU.

Certainly it's easier to do so when you're younger. I just wish I had taken a term abroad, or a postdoc abroad, when I was younger. Then I might have had a better chance to try working abroad. Trying to relocate in your fifties is a whole different proposition, particularly if you want to stay close to your chosen profession.

Oh, then there's that phrase "My friends and family supported my decision". Must be nice to feel someone supports you. We don't all have that. But over the past decade I've come to feel more and more that the USA is not at all the country I was told about when I was growing up. We have let ourselves care more about wealth than about people, and it is ruining everything.

not 50s

I live in Germany. I certainly do NOT have a 35 hour workweek (more like 70, though I could cut down if I wanted to). It is actually six weeks of paid vacation here, though each country has its own variations on the theme.

If I lose my job, I have zero German unemployment benefits. Nothing, nada, zip city. I have zero access to free health care. I can't even get health insurance here at all for under $36,000 premium a year (I checked--the lowest quote was €2500 a month).

As a male of the species and in my sixties, maternity leave is not an issue, and our children are now grown. My German-domiciled daughter will be entitled to a paid maternity leave that she will not have the time to take, but that's the nature of the beast of a job she opted for. She earns twice what I do now, so she is well compensated for her overtime.

Education is not free, but rather paid for in high taxes. The students aren't forced to pay for it, and that's the difference, albeit a very sensible one.

You hit the (effective) 50% tax bracket here before you hit $100,000 in gross income. I get zero pension. The state offers me the opportunity (indeed, the obligation) to pay them income tax, but they offer me nothing in return. Indeed, they are threatening to confiscate half of my retirement fund, on which I already paid my US taxes before moving here. They know about the double taxation treaty, they just prefer to ignore it.

One can live abroad, but if one is contemplating the move, one should be prepared to realize that it is not purely paradise, nothing is truly free, and there are negatives as well as the positives.

Oh yeah, one more thing--if you don't speak and write the language of the country you are contemplating moving to, DON'T GO. Learn the language first. Imagine what it would be like to decide to move to the USA if all you can speak is German. That's how welcome you will be here if you tell the authorities all you speak is English.

I too was wondering how she got to legally work (if she is - would be funny to have an American illegal immigrant somewhere). Landing on that first island, "moving" there, did she have their permission? Funny how Americans believe they can go anywhere while here people have to come "legally."

The other part is that all of my income comes from the USA. Some of it, such as S-corp income, is taxed at the source, i.e., it has already been irrevocably taxed in the USA before the distribution is made. The Double Taxation Treaty says a citizen of the USA who is taxed on income in the USA cannot be taxed again on that income in Germany. The Germans don't care. Even though I have paid my 39.6% (or whatever the rate is) in the USA, they want another 50%, leaving me with about 10%. They also don't recognize a Roth IRA. I made the conversion while I was still a US resident, and paid the taxes in full before moving here. Under US law, that means that fund is tax paid. If I screw up, make a bad investment and the value of the IRA goes down, too bad for me, I can't take a deduction. If the value goes up, good for me, I am paid up, and it's mine. The Germans don't care about that either. They want another 50% of that too, even though the income taxes I have been paying them since 2011 qualify me for ZERO pension, or, for that matter, anything at all from their government. "Give us the money, ask for nothing in return, because that is what you get."

Americans often try to work under the table in countries they fall in love with. I can sympathize, but the local governments do not. Europeans LOVE paperwork. They eat, breathe and sleep bureaucracy. If you are collecting €50 a day in some vacation spot by waiting on tables, there won't be any Trump-like Gestapo similar to ICE sent looking for you, but if you ever are in a situation where you have to produce some ID, and all you have is a US passport that says you have overstayed your legal stay as a tourist, you got problems. You will probably be expelled with a big stamp in your passport saying you are not permitted to re-enter the EU for two years at least. Because of worker-unfriendly labor laws (they ironically label them as the opposite), unemployment is far higher in most EU countries that it is in the USA, and they do not take kindly to Americans showing up and working without permission.

He was speaking English because I don't speak Danish. The owner of the shop knew him and asked him why he was speaking English. He told him that one of his aunt's was visiting and he was making sure I had a good time. The man then apologized and greeted me in English. Yep I did get the xenophobia in the comment.

The first day I was ever there (June, 1970), I attended a lecture (in English) by a member of the Danish parliament, who brought the subject up. Now written Danish is very similar to Norwegian and Swedish (which I speak), so I understand most written Danish if I have the time to make allowances for the differences in spelling. But their pronunciation is from another planet, and the Danish politician acknowledged that his country spoke a language "regarded by our neighbors as a disease of the throat."

They understand the Norwegians and the Swedes just fine, but it isn't as automatic in the other direction, and Germans are completely lost with Danish. When I'm there, I make an effort to contort my Swedish into Danish as best I can, substituting the few small words that I know are different in Danish (there are mercifully few). Their system of numbers is some French sadist's idea of a practical joke. Their number "50" is expressed as "half a twenty back of three times twenty." Their number "70" is expressed as "half a twenty back of four times twenty," and "90" is "half a twenty back of five times twenty." Sixty and eighty are "three times twenty" and "four times twenty (like quatre-vingt in French)." They were kind enough to leave "hundred" alone.

The Danes appreciate my effort to use as much Danish as I can (they never suspect in a million years that I'm American), but I can still detect the latent hostility towards Swedes that some of them harbor. I must say, however, that most of the time when I'm in Denmark, I'm with people who know perfectly well where I come from, and appreciate my effort to speak what Danish I can. It has sounds that are very different from most other European languages. Most Americans never get beyond square one, and I don't blame them. That Danish politician was spot on when he said that Denmark's neighbors regard their language as a disease of the throat. If you can manage to half-swallow a spoonful of mashed potatoes and keep it placed in the vicinity of your vocal chords, your ability to correctly pronounce Danish words will be greatly enhanced.

She's lived overseas for way longer than that

In the 80s we were supposed to want to be at work all the time. People boasted about overtime or working 7 days per week.

He and his wife have an apartment there already. They've sold their house in the US. They've hired an immigration attorney
in Paris to help with getting the necessary long term visa.

I've thought about this myself and I'm 67. France is one of the few European countries that still welcomes retirees (Spain, Italy, and Portugal are other options of which I'm aware, but I have French friends and my French is better than my Spanish. I never studied Italian or Portuguese). Great Britain used to have a visa for retirees who could prove financial independence, but they eliminated it some years ago. Of course if you have a spouse from an EU country, or a parent from an EU country, that's a different story.

They're brave folks but France is nice

The south of France is not exactly the low rent district, although if you are willing to make a few concessions and don't need to be conveniently near anything, you can find a place that won't bankrupt you.

Some Dutch friends of mine bought a house about 100 KM from Bordeaux for vacations, but after 20 years decided they didn't want to be tied down to one place only. They decided to sell it. The procedure took over two years and they were bombarded with paperwork and taxes galore. They said never again.

My advice to people who really want to buy a house here is that they truly intend to make it their residence and live in it.

I got my residence permit quickly because 1.) married to an EU (German) citizen, 2.) steady job for over 30 years, 3.) US health insurance, 4.) demonstrated fluency in the language of the country I was moving to, and 5.) financially independent. The "US health insurance" part was a joke, of course, as Blue Cross denies every claim I submit from Europe. But they only asked if I had it, not if it ever did me any good, so I answered the question they posed, and did not elaborate.

I don't know if we would ever move anywhere else at this point, although a threatened confiscation of my retirement fund would cause me to do it. If I retire, I need something to live off of, and some German bureaucrat nostalgic for "Enteignung" is not going to send me selling apples at the local train station. And after Switzerland is not far, mostly German (kinda, sorta)-speaking, and quite civilized. It is small, modern, civilized, and borders on Germany, France, Italy and Austria. The Swiss insist on assimilation, but I know the main dialect of Schwyzerdüütsch (Swiss German), French and Italian, so I'm already there. A friend of mine who lived in southern Germany just moved there last year. His company has affiliates in both Germany and Switzerland, so it was a snap for him paperwork-wise, and he is happy as a clam there.

The important thing to remember is that no place will turn out to be paradise, and there is always unpleasant stuff to deal with that you never expected--so expect it. If you still want to go after checking everything out, THEN you should go. But some pie in the sky illusion about some place with great cafés and free everything will only lead to deep disappointment.

I'm toying with the idea of going over and living in Lyon for 3 months--which is probably where I'd go--after my divorce is final to see if I'd like it. Get an apartment and really try out every day life. Paris is too expensive, although it is where my French "daughter" lives (a foreign exchange student who lived with us many years ago). Lyon is where a very good friend of hers from the days when she lived with us now lives with his husband. He and his French husband would be very helpful to me if I decided to give Lyon a try-out. He's a teacher--speaks Fench, German, and English--and would be a great source for French lessons to improve my fluency. We visited with him when we were there last year and he was very gracious.

It's probably a pipe dream. I don't know that I have the energy or the patience to handle moving to France alone at my age.

It is surely less expensive than Paris, most places are! But having people you know is a HUGE, IMMENSE plus to moving anywhere, especially a new country. It's a feeling of connection you can't buy for all the money in the world. Having friends to connect with from the beginning is an advantage you can't buy with money. Moving to Paris with a half billion euros in your bank account but knowing nobody is poverty compared to moving to Lyon with friends you can connect with whenever you want.

but they just don't really have any options. They want Ireland or Scotland the most, but neither one offers retirement visas and while they've thought about Spain or Portugal, they don't speak the language and aren't sure it's right for them.

without working relatives already in the country. Or, unless they have sufficient funds to start up a business, but that isn't traditional retirement.

Last edited Sat Apr 28, 2018, 03:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Americans live all over the world as Americans.

Bummer huh?

unless you get dual citizenship or, as DFW shows, or ive without the Euro goodies the OP describes.