Win them over? You mean like a battered wife trying to win over her abusive spouse?

You think that's rational?

for some reason. I suspect that part of it is discomfort with the reality that the Democratic Party and "left" are a broad multi-ethnic coalition in which whites are a minority; hence all the hand-wringing about "identity politics" and "the white working class" from people like Mark Lilla et al.

I am white. The vast majority of the people I know are white Democrats. I just.dont see the world in those terms.

And perhaps that explains some friction I've had with internet friends lately? It has been most disconcerting and I cannot totally explain it.

I don't plan on sleeping with them.

But I'm getting tired of seeing elections lost.

They're fascists. You can't negotiate with fascists. They are subversive. Whenever they gain power it invariably ends badly. The "Thousand Year Reich" lasted a grand total of 12 years and left "The Master Race" in nothing but misery and despair.

They’ve been programmed through years of RW media saturation to want us disempowered...or dead.

Or haven’t you figured that out yet?

so that we start winning elections?

Make more Democratic babies?

to get out and vote. Fewer than half of millennials voted in 2016.

But it's a perennial goal. Young folks have the funny habit of rarely doing what we want them to, but there a never ending supply of them.

Yet there are posters here who don't seem to see the obvious.

oh, wait..."Turnout for 18-34's in 2018 Primary in Philadelphia was up 29%"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210738519

"---and the mule they rode in on!"

Seriously?

We're talking about the hard right, nazi sympathizing, white supremacist, hate-filled, Faux watching people. They are not reasonable.

We're talking about the 35 or so percent who really would love that creature all the more if he shot someone to death on national television.

and if the victim were a right winger, they'd cheer after telling themselves that the person was insufficiently loyal to Dear Orange Leader.

!

You get the point. Writing them off, shutting them out totally because they are rotting, putrid haters...that is a consequence. No benefit of any doubt ever again. No trust just revulsion, scorn and ridicule.

family gatherings.

I've tried for years to talk to them...I've given up.

Now, periodically, my husband has an out of body experience with them and it is very amusing to watch him tell his sisters what he really thinks. He gets away with it because he's the baby brother and they blame that damned liberal heathen he married.

A large portion of Trump's base are fucking scumbags. Plain and simple.

Now that they feel free to show their ass, why would you want to win these people over?

These people almost voted a sex offender thrown off the bench twice into the Senate.

I do agree with your assessment though.

holder. CEO of a LARGE corporation..... lives in the Republican bubble every minute of every day and proudly admits "we have our own facts".... point being, I believe there is no reasoning with them - period. Equivalent to you and I deciding that facts no longer matter and what we see and hear from tRump actually makes sense and isn't all BULLSHIT - other than a lobotomy isn't going to happen.

My point was that there needs to be consequences for what they're inflicting on our nation. My question is what should those consequences be?

There was no consequence for Reagan in Iran-Contra. There was no consequence for Bush lying is into a war, or outing a non-official cover CIA agent. There was no consequence for Swiftboat lying, or any of the phony scandal mongering.

This 30% to 40% need consequences.

It isn't up to me anyway. I favor consequences. I don't know what, yet, but it has to both go beyond anything we have done before and stay within the bounds of ethics and reason.

They have no problem blowing past norms. In light of that development we need to do some serious re-evaluation. I'm thinking here of Lincoln declaring marshall law and Sherman's March to the Sea. We do have some precedent.

Registered Republicans as well? What about third party voters and those who don’t vote? Does their property go up is smoke as well?

You know what's funny though? The lurking cavers picked up this thread and said the exact same thing you just barfed up. Like minds, eh?

Did you not? Yes you did. It doesn't make someone a 'caver' if they know what that means.

I graciously accept your admission of your buddy's caver-ism.

Thanks. I can always count on you.

Approve of.

"It isn't up to me anyway. I favor consequences. I don't know what..."

How that became "torching the homes of trump voters" is beyond me.

Must be better light out here?

So much for your better light.

Outside of the cave - I assure you- it is quite bright my friend.

Last edited Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Approve of is appropriate and justified. Got it.

It was a military campaign conducted in the midst of a shooting war.

But some zeroed right in on that one!

Who voted the wrong way in a time of peace? Do think the overall character of Sherman’s campaign serves as appropriate precedent when considering what consequences the offending electorate should face?

I made the lobotomy reference half in jest. There is no changing hearts and minds - only Dem's controlling all 3 branches of government and over a great deal of time wresting control of SCOTUS back will any chance for consequences happen. Until then we all suffer IMO.

but I think it's really more like they just aren't too bright.............

slamming those with whom we disagree works well, right?




How to Lose the Midterms and Re-elect Trump

'You’re right that Donald Trump is a dangerous and deeply offensive man, and that restraining and containing him are urgent business. You’re wrong about how to go about doing that, or at least you’re letting your emotions get the better of you.

When you answer name-calling with name-calling and tantrums with tantrums, you’re not resisting him. You’re mirroring him. You’re not diminishing him. You’re demeaning yourselves. Many voters don’t hear your arguments or the facts, which are on your side. They just wince at the din.

You permit them to see you as you see Trump: deranged. Why would they choose a different path if it goes to another ugly destination?'>>>

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1016208430

If that kind of behavior reflects badly on people?

See my wife beater analogy above.

And so can Maggie Haberman. How dare these slabs of human silly putty tisk-tisk at people who are resisting atrocities happening daily, atrocities they enable constantly by normalizing Trump and his cult in their paper?

Despite the fever dreams of certain "progressives", we aren't going to woo over Pepe the Frog types with promises of free college. We need to fight the same procedural and cultural battles they've been fighting against us for 30 years, with vigor and yes, with bad fucking language if necessary. Otherwise we will have no political means of redress to their wrongs. After that, violence will inevitably follow. It's as simple as that.

Those who don't regret their vote and still support that monster are not going to be reached.

Somebody like that needs psychiatric help, not appeasement, and certainly not my political friendship.

But worth it. It gives us insight into the minds of these people and how they are being manipulated.

Will keep and use the goering quote.

But I have no hope of them coming around, and personally want nothing to do with them.

Otherwise you’re just blowing smoke.

For example, do you support rounding up these “bad” people and sending them to re-education camps?

Maybe you’d like to see their children removed from their custody. Or forced sterilization.

Water boarding?

C’mon. Don’t leave us hanging.

to an off-world colony if at all possible; perhaps one of the moons of Jupiter.


Realistically I hope the consequences are that, at the end of all this, whether the U.S. per se survives or not, their evil political party gets relegated to the dustbin of history, democracy is reinstated in our nation, and we can work toward real social progress.

I'm not a fan of incarcerating anybody, really...so maybe public shaming?

Mostly I just want reason and goodness to prevail, and the horrible ideas of evil, racist scum to be forever removed from public policy. We should not have to be arguing whether Nazis are "good people," or whether our nation should be forcibly separating children from their families.

...or your authority to decree it.

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2018, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

You're demand for consequences cannot be said to make sense without examples of such consequences. You've ducked when asked for examples because, presumably, there are no examples that make any sense. When pressed, you somewhat contradictorily indicated that consequences should be consistent with ethics and reason but should not hesitate to blow through "norms." And you cited as "precedent" for whatever it is that you have in mind, but apparently don't really have in mind, Lincoln's declaration of "marshall" (sic) law and Sherman's march -- two examples that, apart from arising in a completely different context than we face today, are not universally regarded as being supported by ethics or reason. (The Supreme Court ruled with respect to Lincoln's declaration of martial law/suspension of habeas corpus that the circumstances in which the rights of the people can be stripped in the name of "martial law" are extremely limited: "if, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society, and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration, for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war."

So, like I said, I know you think your suggestion that some sort of "consequences" be imposed on the people that voted for Trump (or is it for all Republicans? How do we identify them? Is the idea that once we've regained the White House, the new President will impose sanctions on anyone who didn't vote for him or her? Yeah...that makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for that info. See ya.

They're not patriots and they don't love this country. They just hate liberals, a group which they don't even know exactly who encompasses. If your hatred for people who share different political opinions from you exceeds your love of your homeland, then you're a bad American and should just get the fuck out.

It really isn't complicated. Of all the reasons I've ever voted for any candidate, who I think will piss people off the most has never once been a factor for consideration. Yet I CONSTANTLY find that's the mindset of Trump supporters. Fuck them.

The states that voted for Trump? Michigan? Ohio? Pennsylvania? Wisconsin? Florida? And what about the 35-45 percent of the people that voted for HRC but live in states that went to Trump. What happens to them.

Silliness.

Or do you just want to act smug and lecture people?

And do I want to lecture people? Not really. I do want to point out silly ideas that clutter up this board, like suggesting the solution is for those people to form their own country.

Anyone who hates liberals more than they love this country can go fuck themselves. Anyone who walks into a voting booth with the mindset "I'm going to vote for this guy because he pisses people off" can go fuck themselves.

And you're taking my comment about them forming their own country WAY too seriously. I know that such an idea would never happen in real life. It was just me expressing my wish that they would be gone. These hate-filled, willfully ignorant cretins are an anchor around this goddamn country, holding it back from progressing into what it could be.

Although I think a good part of the state should be part of the real USA. It'd be hard to figure out.

I've mentioned it many times previously but in 1984 when I moved to Las Vegas I met dozens of white males in the sports betting scene who owned every opinion and tendency as described in the OP. They treated me fine as a fellow white male but when they described other demographics I was stunned at the bigotry and hate and fear.

Then they would turn on me once I announced my politics. But I didn't mind because there were always a few right wingers who (briefly) attempted to debate. That was fun.

The explosion of the internet allowed that type to communicate with each other and gain in confidence. I warned Chris Bowers numerous times on MyDD in the early to mid 2000s that if each side pushed toward the extremes then it could only benefit the GOP, and not by a minor amount. I couldn't believe how situationally clueless he was. Moderates and complacency were our friends. If both sides got energized in primaries toward dictating the nominee then the absolute guarantee was that right wing nutcases would get nominated time and again, and some of them ultimately elected. There was no chance we could mirror that on our end. The net is a significant shift to the right in terms of who is representing us, compared to the views of the nation as a whole.

At that point in the early 2000s I didn't anticipate the emergence of social media and how influential it would become. Nor Russia, obviously.

The only effective counter I am aware of is relentless registration drives on college campuses. Focus on a logical small net gain played out year after year. Then don't panic if the results don't fully cooperate in 2018 and 2020. I noticed that Barack Obama told our potential candidates not to react to the shiny sentences. Precisely. The problem on our side right now and in general is fixation on today. Hence the daily thread asking, "Is anyone watching Rachel?"

I always have to laugh. It is so pathetic. Today basically means nothing in the big picture. Find your best approach and methodically apply it. Don't worry about what Trump says or what Rachel says.

I worked in mid-level government jobs for many years, supply side stuff. We all saw the "no-no" training vids, sexual harassment, hostile environment, etc. But, over almost 40 years and three large employers, I always noticed the same thing, almost entirely from white males, but some females as well.
It starts innocently enough. People like to learn about the new employee, feel them out, see what they know and what they think. No problem. Then the little references would start. Vaguely worded but maybe racially insensitive. Often posed as a joke. I usually ignored it at first, but it always got more bold until you stated who you were and what you thought. Then it would pretty much stop and you never got invited to go camping...lol....or whatever. But now it is much more in your face due to modern communications and social media. But the point is.....it has always been there.

I also think a lot of them were abused physically and mentally and it damaged them. Almost all of the righties I know complain about a difficult childhood and cold parents.

I don't see them as bad people. I see them as woefully misinformed, distrustful of everything and everyone and clinging to their almighty religion as if their lives depended on it.

I want every single person who voted for tRump to realize their hypocrisy and be completely ashamed of it. I want them humiliated enough to know what it is they voted for and to feel the repercussions themselves. I want it them to feel an emotional/financial impact of what they are putting this country and the rest of the world through.

Will that ever happen? Probably not. But I don't consider them bad people...mostly stupid for supporting bad people.

We have a good friend who voted for tRump and he's ashamed of it. He only told us this because he doesn't want to piss off his own family. He said he wished he voted for Hillary even though he doesn't like her. He also said he's voting straight Dem in the midterms and in the next general.

Some do learn, but obviously not enough.

You can lie to your family and say you voted for twitler but voted for Hillary. I call bs on that argument of his. He probably just got swept up into the twitler mania the media was pushing.

It was a few months after the election that he started wishing he could take it back. James pretty much hates tRump now and is ashamed of his vote. I could punch him in the head sometimes, but he's come a long way since then. His daughter is gay and he started talking to her again about a year ago. She and her wife had a baby and he's a complete pushover for his granddaughter. Still stuns me at how far he's come considering how conservative he used to be.

Nice guy and would give you the shirt off his back. THe guy had another friend who told him that Hillary was going to start a war and he fell for it. Luckily my husband’s friends wife voted for Hillary. So they cancelled each other out. Thenwife to,d me on Facebook she didn’t talk to her husband for a few days she was so mad at him! He now also regrets his vote and thinks twitler is insane. I think there are quite a few people out there who were gullible and now horrified. Only those hard core faux right wing media brained washed types will stand by the pos in the White House.

it's OK to look down at those who don't look like them they are good. I wonder though if trump told them to turn their guns would they comply ?

from ANY president.

Heck in areas where registration has been implemented, the compliance rate is usually in the low teens, and that is in blue states.

No going back to conservative ideals EVER. That is a consequence I believe we are all willing to dish out.

I remain puzzled by the likes of David Frum, Steve Schmidt, Joe Scar, Bill Kristol et al. They seem to know their jig is up but Incan still sense their inner hatred of "liberal." They seem to be in purgatory or.something.

I'm all in.

Seems like a far cry from Sherman's March, Lincoln's martial law, or other consequences that exceed the "norms". In fact, it seems like the very definition of "norms", which may be why so many responding to the OP basically suggested that the solution is to win elections and adopt the policies we support.

Which has actually been on the rise for decades, has so perverted our sense of "normalcy" that we end up with someone like the Rump. A return to true Democratic ideals will seem radical in comparison. I should note that this return must include a complete shift in the narrative. That is key. Democratic governance should allow liberal and conservative voices to compete, but we have allowed the extreme right to dominate the dialogue for too long.

But if Trump does shoot him most will flip and support him I bet.

Just bc they win doesn't mean they are that strong. If you cheat...and you're 25%, it doesn't make you 40%...but, it sure makes it LOOK that way. Americans are HONEST. Cheating at elections should be a mandatory prison term.

Look at now much energy we waste here hating on each other? Was there really that much difference between Hillary inton and Bernie Sanders? I don't want to have those stupid battles. I want to defeat fascists.

but, my conscience is clear. AND every Democrat i know who votes. This red herring that Bernie or Busters blew us apart is getting old. I voted for B in the primaries but, like every Democrat who has 2 bits of sense, I vote for who wins the primaries as well. This "we don't vote" retort is really condescending and old. YEAH we do. We voted for the first black president and were just as happy to vote for the first woman president. We all wanted to be part of history. Like Obamas victory. WE DO VOTE. But, if the votes aren't counted, how is that the peoples problem who voted? Please stop saying that. WE DO TOO VOTE. And every one of them should count before we as a group are lectured like novices.

That's a fact.

If we turn out, we win. If we don't we still win but the criminals can steal it.

You know that.

We had big blue wave elections in 2006, 08 and 12.

Nothing you can say will convince me otherwise.

So many posters here doing the obtuse schtick. What's that about?

When there's nothing factual about it. The evidence proves otherwise. Democrats haven't turned out in every election, but they have in the past and they've been turning out in fantastic numbers for the last year.

So tedious.

I'm just pointing out to those who are reading the thread what you said, and how it's factually incorrect.

In the farewell interview of a student and his Gō teacher in Japan, the old master give his student this final lecture:


“Your scorn for mediocrity blinds you to its vast primitive power. You stand in the glare of your own brilliance, unable to see into the dim corners of the room, to dilate your eyes and see the potential dangers of the mass, the wad of humanity. Even as I tell you this, dear student, you cannot quite believe that lesser men, in whatever numbers, can really defeat you. But we are in the age of the mediocre man. He is dull, colorless, boring — but inevitably victorious. The amoeba outlives the tiger because it divides and continues in its immortal monotony. The masses are the final tyrants. See how, in the arts, Kabuki wanes and withers while popular novels of violence and mindless action swamp the mind of the mass reader. And even in that timid genre, no author dares to produce a genuinely superior man as his hero, for in his rage of shame the mass man will send his yojimbo, the critic, to defend him. The roar of the plodders is inarticulate, but deafening. They have no brain, but they have a thousand arms to grasp and clutch at you, drag you down.”
― Trevanian, Shibumi

The Age of Trump was accutrately predicted 45 years ago.

It isn't that I didn't notice. The problem now is that they are emboldened.

"30% to 40% of our VOTING electorate are bad people". Most Americans don't vote.

We win - and win - and win

I rest well at night knowing that this November they will enter the valley of comeuppance.

When I see a big, gas guzzling pick-up truck with a Trump bumper sticker I ignore the person. I think the time is coming when we will have to fight them, the division is beyond solving with words I believe.

At minimum - collaborators.

while on a road trip last week. It was non-stop vilification and hatred directed toward liberals and the "Democrat Party". There was no attempt to offer solutions to problems, just a barrage of constant blaming. I realized the solution really being offered was to eliminate liberals and Democrats. It was and is Fascism.

I do think my premise stands regardless. I do think its 30% to 40% of our electorate. As Wermer Twertzog noted Americans are waking up to a fact that Germans already know: a third of the population would murder another third while a third watch and do nothing.

I would be murdered.

But I only see a tiny number of violent bigmouths. That's the 10% shitler needs, and he doesn't have it.

And they must be crushed.

Hang tough, brother.