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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums5 year old's touch sends on-loan sculpture crashing to floor. Kansas City bills parents 132K
Video of the incident:
http://www.newser.com/story/260706/parents-get-132k-claim-after-kid-topples-sculpture.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_top
Wrangling 5-year-olds can be challenging. Failing to do so can apparently be expensive. Or so learned a Kansas couple, who say they may be on the hook for a $132,000 sculpture their young son knocked over. ABC News reports that while at the Tomahawk Ridge Community Center in Overland Park for a May 19 wedding reception, the 5-year-old was caught reaching toward the sculpture by surveillance cameras; "Aphrodite di Kansas City" toppled over and fell. Then the other shoe dropped, in the form of an insurance claim for $132,000the piece's list pricefrom the company that insures the city. Sculptor Bill Lyons says he spent roughly 2 years creating the glass piece and that his inspection of it revealed damage to the head and arms. It is "beyond my capabilities and desires to rebuild it," Lyons says.
"Youre responsible for the supervision of a minor child ... your failure to monitor could be considered negligent," the letter from the insurance company read in part. Mom Sarah Goodman counters that the whole scenario was dangerous, and not because of her child. "He didnt maliciously break that. It fell on him. It was not secure, it was not safeat all." As for what he was doing, she tells the Kansas City Star "he probably hugged it ... because hes a loving, sweet nice boy who just graduated from preschool." Overland Park says the piece was on loan and it was obligated to file an insurance claim, and the insurance company was subsequently obligated to contact the family. They say they're hopeful their homeowner's insurance policy will cover the situation, reports KSHB. (This woman says she didn't ruin an $89,000 artwork but rather increased its value.)
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The boy can be seen hugging the base of the sculpture named Aphrodite di Kansas City by local artist Bill Lyons, the Kansas City Star said. He attempts to hold it up as it begins to lean forward but cant stop it from falling.
This glass mosaic torso is laying on the ground and someone is following me around demanding my personal information, the boys mother Sarah Goodman told WGN.
The family soon learned of the pieces hefty price tag.
Maybe this is like 800 or something. No, its $132,000! Goodman told reporters. Im sorry, were finished here.
The Goodmans said they received a letter from the City of Overlands insurance company accusing them of negligence for not monitoring their children, according to WGN.
In response, the mother said, My children are well-supervised, but all people get distracted.
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/06/15/kansas-boy-topples-aphrodite-sculpture-132k/
Takket
(21,578 posts)hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)Sorry, Mom.. Your child is undoubtedly loving and lovely and you undoubtedly did get distracted. But, you are responsible for your children, including the damage they do.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)FakeNoose
(32,649 posts)But this is a different generation, and nobody wants to take responsibility for anything. I keep asking myself, why do these people even have kids? Some of these mothers are the same ones who get their kids' teachers fired because their little snowflakes aren't getting straight A's in school.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)There is much more than "you broke, it you bought it" going on here.
This is a multi-function community center, not an art museum or a glass shop.
A community center is reasonably likely to be used by various groups of the community, such as this wedding reception. The community includes children, and it is reasonably foreseeable that children will be present. It is also reasonably foreseeable that in any place where there will be numbers of parents and children, that children will get away.
So, in a community center used for a range of community activities, they mounted a $132,000 sculpture in such a negligent way that it could be toppled by a small child.
The city pays this insurance company to cover things that may happen like this. If anything, the insurance company should be looking into why this city chose to put an expensive glass statue on an obviously inadequate mount in a community center.
exboyfil
(17,863 posts)They are fortunate that the thing didn't hurt anyone. This kind of like an Attractive Nuisance.
Little kids run around at wedding receptions. It's what they do. I've never been to a wedding reception where children were invited that this wasn't so. It's been true of community celebrations throughout human history
In any case, the sculpture was not anchored properly if a little kid could knock it over.
The sculpture could have fallen just as easily if some adult, tipsy on their third glass of champagne, had nudged it.
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)The negligence is by the citys community center. The Goodmans should fight this claim.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Not only was it an "attractive nuisance," if it was so unsteady that a 5-year-old, who was invited to be there, could topple it over, the community center and artist bear the responsibility.
It also doesn't look like there were any signs, warnings or barriers to keep children or anyone else from touching it.
This is bs ...
SomethingNew
(279 posts)The attractive nuisance doctrine applies to trespassing children, not invitees or licensees. Furthermore, it must be so situated as to attract the trespassing children onto the property. It can't just be something that attracts them once they are already there. It must also actually be a nuisance. A sculpture inside a building does not meet this definition in any way. But even if it did, it wouldn't apply here because the child was not a trespasser.
Attractive nuisances also don't do anything to limit or shift liability for damaged property. I'm not aware of any legal doctrine which says that if property is easily damaged, you don't have to pay for breaking it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine
It is not an argument that the property is easily damaged making one not liable for breaking it, but that is a factor in arguing that the center was negligent for leaving an easily breakable, valuable work of art unprotected in an area where it knew there would be wedding guests, which includes children.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 18, 2018, 07:52 PM - Edit history (1)
I'll post the case when I get home.
Too lazy to do a thorough search to see if anything has changed since 1995. The name of the case is Mozier v. Parsons for anyone who can't access Lexis.
https://advance.lexis.com/document/?pdmfid=1000516&crid=47ab9084-88c7-4487-ba37-74fb79b08a57&pddocfullpath=%2Fshared%2Fdocument%2Fcases%2Furn%3AcontentItem%3A3RX4-32C0-003F-D10K-00000-00&pddocid=urn%3AcontentItem%3A3RX4-32C0-003F-D10K-00000-00&pdcontentcomponentid=6805&pdshepid=urn%3AcontentItem%3A7XWP-RXH1-2NSD-K0TM-00000-00&pdteaserkey=sr1&pditab=allpods&ecomp=Lfmfk&earg=sr1&prid=079df316-e894-44f5-b43d-ed18e7b8e18b
Rorey
(8,445 posts)It shouldn't have been accessible in that type of setting. Well stated.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Dont take a 5-year-old or keep him right by you. But at a wedding? Such a venue should expect kids.
Hangingon
(3,071 posts)The gallery is off the entrance lobby. They have events there. They have a great gym and basketball courts. I doubt if any one is qualified to run an art exhibit.
tblue37
(65,409 posts)not have been so carelessly exposed to risk.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)The mother shows absolutely no remorse for her kid's actions. She blames everyone except her kid for touching something he shouldn't have. It is clear from the video the wedding reception was not going on in the area of the sculpture. The kid should not have been left unattended and allowed to get into the area in which the sculpture was displayed. That area looks like it is for art displays in the video.
I would have almost agreed with you until I saw the mother on TV. Her inability to even express regret the incident happened infuriated me. I hope the insurance company prevails in this. People need to take responsibility for their kids.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)You don't know what else she may have said during the interview, you only know what was cut out and put into the clip.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Her thoughts on the matter were quite clear in the video. It is someone else's fault. There was ample time in her statements that were aired to work in regret. I suspect she has none.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)The interview was probably 10 or 15 minutes. You don't know what questions she was asked. You don't know the context of the particular statements that were aired. How could she "work in regret" when she had no control over exactly which words were included in the clip? Damn, I'm not saying she's in the right, but don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The community center could be said to be at fault too, in this case. In negligence law, you are responsible for the foreseeable risks of your negligence. While something getting knocked over would qualify, it would be foreseeable that it would be a vase or the like, but not something so expensive that reasonable people would have protected it.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)failed to rope or cordon it off, and failed to place a warning sign.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)The wedding reception wasn't being held in the space where the art was. The kid was allowed to get away from the parents.
You cannot expect other people to always look out for your kids. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that you can put something on display and not have it climbed upon.
I hope the insurance company prevails because it is certainly negligence on the part of the parents. The kid probably can't read and there even if it were cordned off the kid would probably have gone under the ropes anyway. They clearly have not been taught that the whole world is NOT their personal playground.
My parents taught us to not touch things from before that age and we obeyed.
How do you know the center didn't secure it in some way. It's a glass sculpture. Maybe there was no way to do more than they did and not compromise or damage it. Are they supposed to not display art because they can't count on parents keeping their children under control? Are they supposed to deprive everyone else because one set of parents can't make their kid behave?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)I have to laugh when I hear all the people who are CERTAIN that they were never naughty children who touched something they shouldn't have.
And all the parents who never once took their eyes off their children.
Yeah, right.
But the fact is that that facility had a legal responsibility for the safety of all its patrons, including the children who they knew would be there. They were very lucky that child wasn't seriously hurt. The burden was on the facility to make sure that statue was secure, and to put a warning sign up and to cordon it off. They failed miserably.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)It disgusts me that no one feels the parents are responsible for their children's actions.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)for the safety of those who pay to use it, and their guests.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)bitterross
(4,066 posts)I'm amazed that no one sees there is the practicalities here.
Not to mention. Why the heck does the community center have to spend tons of money because people can't keep their kids from climbing on things? Why can't people just do the right thing and either monitor their children or just not take them out in public if they can't be trusted to behave.
Why is it everyone else's responsibility to take care of other people's children?
bitterross
(4,066 posts)You know who pays for that claim? You do and I do through the rates we pay on insurance.
The less the insurance company has to pay on the claim the less it affects your rate and mine. When parents do not control their children in public, they should be responsible for the damage.
The money to pay the claim doesn't come from nowhere.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)They are lucky the child was not seriously injured.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)DesertRat
(27,995 posts)And after inspecting it, he has no desire to try to repair it.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)comradebillyboy
(10,155 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,748 posts)from the people who caused the loss. Its called subrogation, they do it all the time.
WePurrsevere
(24,259 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)If your brat just broke something you obviously weren't supervising them well enough.
Cha
(297,323 posts)Way to insult the little 5 year old boy.
mythology
(9,527 posts)When I was a kid I knew to keep my hands to myself because my parents (more accurately mom) taught me how to behave. These parents obviously didn't.
Letting children damage other people's property isn't okay no matter how much you and others may want to coddle those who have children they aren't prepared to be responsible for.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and in the meantime, you may have to take the kid to weddings, etc.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This child found and neutralized a menace to public safety before it had the chance to seriously injure or kill someone.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)The whole world should not have to be child-proofed to account for bad parenting. By your logic everything must be safe for a 5 year old. That is a unreasonable expectation.
Cha
(297,323 posts)calling him a "brat".
Demsrule86
(68,595 posts)if I were the parents. This is why they have insurance. Also, if a little five year old can knock it to the ground it was not properly secured. The flip side is the kid could have been hurt. My then five year old jumped on a golf cart that one of the employees had left running in a dealership and smashed it in to a cadillac escalade. Thank God she wasn't hurt. We were looking for a SUV and being driven around in the cart. She took off at a run with me right behind her and jumped into the cart got it in gear. That car was fully loaded so very expensive, and was it damaged. Accidents happen. I was certainly not presented with a bill...the dealership employees were very apologetic. I was mortified however. The parents should countersue. The exhibit was not properly secured, the child could have been injured and unless they banned kids, they had a responsibility to create a safe environment for them.
tblue37
(65,409 posts)Demsrule86
(68,595 posts)I expect the insurance company will rue the day.
tblue37
(65,409 posts)Demsrule86
(68,595 posts)Mariana
(14,858 posts)you're a shitty parent because that happened. You should have had your kid in a straitjacket. It's your fault.
Demsrule86
(68,595 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Kids are kids, and they sometimes make mistakes. I took my daughter to an art museum when she was 7. She loves art. She wanted to take a picture of a cool collage and got out her camera (it was permitted). She couldn't get all the collage in the picture and started backing up. I saw the danger right away, but she bumped into a pedestal with a vase on it. She wasn't being a brat, and I had my eye on her the whole goddammed time. Fortunately, I managed to get there in time to prevent a fall. Disaster averted.
She was properly behaving her self. But she was SEVEN and didn't think of what was behind her.
Museums/galleries need to take proper precautions for breakables. Maybe don't put something that fragile where people can walk up to it and touch it? Maybe mount it in a more secure way?
There is no way the insurance company collects on this one, I think.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Of course!
That's why the parents need to be supervising their kids out in public, which these parents obviously were not doing!
It's nothing on the 5 year old, its all on the bad parents!
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I do believe in parental supervision, but when you're the caretaker of such a valuable piece, you should take extra precautions. Having such a fragile and dangerous piece out in the open like that is just plain negligent. I'm so glad the little boy is okay.
It is negligent to leave something that valuable so openly unprotected.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,862 posts)backing up without paying attention to what's behind them. Heck, we all do that occasionally.
The parents should counter-sue that the sculpture was not secured and presented a danger to their child.
nolabear
(41,987 posts)I will never understand the appeal of smug unkindness.
Such dislike of kids is strange. We all remember being one. It is a condition of life everyone can empathize with !
Mariana
(14,858 posts)during their childhoods, not even once. They and their parents were perfect.
treestar
(82,383 posts)at their side every second. Could hardly have been parents of baby boomers, who had larger families.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)And yet, on other threads on DU, we read about how kids had all this unsupervised free time back in the day, and got into all kinds of trouble, and how sad it is that kids today don't get to do that.
mcar
(42,334 posts)Children are part of the community, last I checked.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Knocked it over by accident too. It was that valuable and the center should have known anyone could accidentally break it
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)For spotting and neutralizing this hazard to public safety.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)a valuable piece of art and not a toy?
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)Suddenly, I find that I really dislike your view of the world.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Sometimes the statue wins:
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-26/news/1993146029_1_small-pillars-statue-creek
A 4-year-old Sykesville boy was killed yesterday afternoon at an Ellicott City spiritual retreat after he fell from a small religious statue, which toppled onto his head.
comradebillyboy
(10,155 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Rather than displaying it in a high traffic area without any protection.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)...endangering patrons.
B2G
(9,766 posts)that hosts dozens of wedding receptions each year. Where people drink.
They should just be happy the boy wasn't injured or they'd be facing a huge lawsuit.
Cha
(297,323 posts)womanofthehills
(8,721 posts)Sounds like many people on DU have never been around 5 yr old boys!! You can be two feet behind them and stuff happens.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)All that thick mosaic is fairly heavy + requires a lot of epoxy which has weight. A lot depends on how thick the mosaic is, how thick the glass is, how thick that metal frame is, and what's under all that mosaic. Can't know just by looking at this statue.
I agree the pedestal looks a bit inadequate and the wisdom of having a supposedly near $100K in value statue in an area used for parties without it being somehow enclosed seems questionable at best.
And I suppose a kid that young knocking it over provides fairly decent evidence it wasn't bottom-heavy ENOUGH unless he totally climbed up onto the top 1/2
sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)It looks like a skirt, but it wasn't connected together and there wasn't anything roping it off from the public.
bluestarone
(16,976 posts)Not very smart to have it low enough for a child to reach? What the hell were they thinking?
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Zoonart
(11,871 posts)I am chairman of the board of a local arts council in NYS. We vet the acceptance of all public sculptures that we place on loan at a very high level. If the sculpture is not secured to the base properly and will not withstand the rigors of public display... which always involves touching,
the sculpture would have been rejected until the sculptor had made changes.
I feel badly for this family. I think the agency that approved the installation should bear the cost of the work through THEIR insurance.
That's ow it would work for us, the case is that due diligence had not been done in installation.
I just rejected a sculpture on Thursday, because it was too close to the ground and looked to be fragile in that the armature was constructed with chicken wire, which is easily bent.
Just MHO plus a little experience.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)yardwork
(61,657 posts)I'm surprised that this happened at a community center in Kansas City. Somebody didn't do a good job vetting the display of this piece.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and part of our job was worrying about liability. We had an obligation to keep people safe.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I will never forgive you for rejecting my piece.
I spent five years on a two story 30 ton steel work called Homage To Jenga which I specifically designed for the competition for an installation in the atrium of the new treatment center for blind hyperactive children - and you turned it down!
I will never forgive you.
Zoonart
(11,871 posts)I knew it would come to this. Now I will have to burn my identity and start over.
See you in the game.
Lochloosa
(16,066 posts)Much less a community center.
The negligence lies with displayer, not the child.
dubyadiprecession
(5,716 posts)Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)bottom
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Who could possibly believe that putting a top-heavy glass sculpture in a multi-function community center used for parties and presumably other community events, was not a good idea?
Notice the bill is from the insurance company.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)It was not, so I think the mother does bear at least some responsibility. It would be nice if the facility/insurer split the expenses with the mother, but I do think she was negligent and a court would likely decide the same.
It is hard to be a mother and keep up with a healthy, rambunctious toddler. But I can remember my parents drilling in the "no touch!" "no running!" "look ONLY" mantras from the moment I became aware of much of anything. Even at the age of this young child, I knew better, as did my sister.
I do feel for the mother, just as I would any parent (or even pet owner) who must assume responsibility for unintentional actions that result in damage or destruction. One of those unfortunate things that can happen and which requires one hell of a lot of vigilance to avoid.
mcar
(42,334 posts)A party at a community center.
kcr
(15,317 posts)But I was also taught to take responsibility for my things and how to take care of them. That if I was careless and something happened to them it was at least partially my fault. To not blame others for my carelessness.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And this was a large party involving alcohol. What could go wrong?
demmiblue
(36,865 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,359 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,350 posts)This one, of course, is second.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,842 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)is responsible. They're the ones who built and/or installed it.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Looks like hit garbage to me
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)Bluepinky
(2,275 posts)I could create a sculpture of a dog turd out of metal and glass and say its worth 10,000. Whos to say its not worth that? No way would anyone pay $132,000 for the sculpture the child broke. In addition, the community center should not have had this type of art unsecured in the facility. Seems like this was an accident waiting to happen.
GReedDiamond
(5,313 posts)...when I filled out the paperwork for the insurance, I conferred with the artist on the value of the pieces, who suggested that I slightly inflate the prices, so for example, if the piece was worth $5000, list it at $6000.
This particular artist's work is still rising in value, so even at $6K, in another 5-10 years, the piece could be worth 2-3 times what the current value is.
The sculpture valued at $132,000 in this situation seems highly inflated, not to mention that, subjectively speaking, it is quite unappealing to look at.
As has already been pointed out, the piece was not secured to the pedestal at all, nor roped off to keep people, not to mention small children, from coming into contact with it.
The community center is responsible, not the family of the child, and insurance company is full of shit.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)He's just trying to make money selling a broken thing that he couldn't sell when it was whole.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Because, yeah, in a facility which is used for parties, people keep kids on leashes all of the time.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)airports with two male energetic toddlers once. I know I would not have been able to keep up with them and couldn't imagine doing so in some of the crazed settings I'd been in traveling overseas.
You'd have thought I had suggested banishing their kids to the woods to be raised by wolves. LOL whew
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Not every child needs it . Some are over energetic at an age where they can not understand . Of course by 5 , the boys age, I would think most developing should understand
A teacher friend of mine told me a lot of losers wait until the school can teach them hands off and sit down behave
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)Lotusflower70
(3,077 posts)I hate those things. This is a child not an animal.
all american girl
(1,788 posts)the boy was the master at getting away. He could get out of his stroller and off he'd run, or hide, or go touching expensive stuff. And to top it all off, he hated holding hands. Drove me crazy. So I got one. He absolutely loved it. He could walk on his own and I didn't have to worry about him getting hurt, lost, or breaking things. Not sure why people think they are bad. The kid is given some freedom and is safe. He was protected.
John Fante
(3,479 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)while she was saying goodbye to the family of the bride.
irisblue
(32,982 posts)Watch your kid(s) more closely Ms & Mr Goodman
B2G
(9,766 posts)"But Goodman argued the sculpture should have been better secured. She also disputes the citys claim that her child wasnt being supervised. Goodman said she and her husband were out of frame of the surveillance camera, saying their goodbyes during a wedding reception that they were leaving, when the incident occurred."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-face-132000-claim-kid-knocks-sculpture/story?id=55927437
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)She wasn't just outside the frame.
irisblue
(32,982 posts)My mom did the same. My siblings held their kids hands.
I'm not unaware of a tired, fidegty kid making a parent annoyed, but a child that young does not have the ability to imagine consequences from their actions.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Really?
At a wedding reception, nobody in your family could dance or socialize without holding someone's hand?
irisblue
(32,982 posts)I usually babysat the smaller fry at their parents house or at the hotel room; popcorn, M&Ms, pizza, red pop, VHS tapes, then DVDs, staying up till midnight. I was the 'fun aunt'.
How do you dance at a wedding w/o holding hands? Or having your partner, of any age, in front or next to you?
But thay isn't what you.meant is it? Enjoy your weekend. Toodles.
GoneOffShore
(17,340 posts)Thank you.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)The boy climbed up on the pedestal supporting the sculpture and pulled it off. It fell on the floor and broke. I could see no adults anywhere near the children (there were two). Direct supervision by a nearby adult is always needed with children that age in a place like that. At all times.
We can't expect children not to behave like children, but we can expect their parents to be nearby in places where expensive things can be easily broken. They'll end up having to pay, I'm sure.
This is one of the potential problems with free-ranging children.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Should a community center used for a range of activities, and rented for wedding receptions, be a "place where expensive things can be easily broken"?
Would you have put this statue in an elementary school?
This is not a museum - it is a multi-function community center in a community obviously including children.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)An expensive item in a place you dont think it belongs doesnt absolve a party who damages it from responsibility if the damages are a result of obviously irresponsible actions.
Climbing on a piece of art on a pedestal on display is inappropriate behavior pretty much everywhere, unless its a stature placed for that purpose in a playground.
Would I have put it there? No. But that doesnt mean that the party to damaged it through negligence still isnt 100% to blame.
Its like parking an expensive luxury car in a high crime area. Is it smart? No. Does that mean a person who steals it and destroys it joyriding is any less responsible for the damages they caused? Nope.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Because you are completely ignoring what kind of place this is:
"Its like parking an expensive luxury car in a high crime area. Is it smart? No."
It's not at all like that.
So you are saying that the town could put this sculpture in the middle of an intersection, and expect people to drive around it, since that's where the town decided to put it?
Of course not.
SOMEONE decided to rent this facility out for wedding receptions. Wedding receptions are attended by all ages, and there is drinking.
This is about the insurance company realizing that the town made a very stupid decision which they won't cover.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)In an intersection is an absurd example.
This was not an intersection. It was a public place, sure. But not a playground or a an intersection. Its a public place where people are expected to behave.
And climbing onto public art displays is clearly not expected or appropriate behavior.
The insurance company did cover it. And like all insurance companies they are not seeking to recover the costs from the party at fault for the damage. Thats how insurance works. They dont just pay out for a third parties negligence and then close it, they go after the negligent party.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That kid could have been killed by this hazard they put in an entirely inappropriate place with inadequate safety precautions.
But if the kid was killed, you'd be billing the parents for it.
The insurance company is billing twice here. This was a rented public facility. They are billing people who were paying the premium.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)It will be interesting to see how it ends.
The video showing the kid clearly was not being supervised by any adults at that point doesnt help their case.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Tell me, does this museum from which it was on loan have guards?
Can you tell me what is the function of guards in an art museum?
Does this museum from which it was on loan host parties?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)And yes, lots of them do host weddings.
And even when they do, its not the job of a guard or museum to babysit the kids when the parents are negligent.
And the absence of guards doesnt mean that a parent can let kids run wild and not be responsible for what their kids do.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)DID the museum from which it was on loan have this sculpture placed in a lobby with no barrier, and did this museum have a guard.
This kid was not "running wild".
This was a wedding reception. I would bet that people were drinking and dancing as well. Is that also "running wild"?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Wouldnt matter if there was one guard there, 10 guards, or no guards.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And nobody is responsible for placing a glass sculpture in a public facility rented for parties which injures a child.
Got it.
Next up - Zoos with "walk with the tigers" experiences...
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)When kids get injured like that its the Parents fault.
I get that some people believe that its never a Parents failt no matter thier kids do, and everyone else needs to do everything to keep their kids safe so the parents dont have to it and dont have to take any responsibility.
Whats more reasonable- to expect parents to actually take responsibility for their kids, to watch them and monitor them. Or to expect every object in every public place- be it art, lamps, tables, shelves, or anything else to be all mounted and constructed in a way so kids can run wild and use them all as jungle gyms when the kids are poorly patented?
If the kid had run up and pulled the wedding cake off the table would you be blaming the couple getting married for not properly guarding the cake and leaving such an attractive piece where a kid could run to it, or would you blame the parents for not supervising the kid? Same principle, just different object.
treestar
(82,383 posts)at least, not an average wedding cake. You don't expect it to be protected by a rope or glass. If knocked over, it is still edible to a degree. It is not meant to last more than a day.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Any artist can ask whatever he wants for a piece of art, but it is only worth what someone will pay for it.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)When someone gives children access to something that they might be attracted to, and is potentially dangerous, then THEY are responsible if the child gets injured.
This piece of "art" could look like a big, shiny doll to a child. It should have been secured in place and roped off.
MichMan
(11,939 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)The community center was negligent in not securing a top heavy fragile piece that could have killed the kid.
And Ive been to weddings in museums and other non traditional venues. Kids werent allowed.
Response to jberryhill (Reply #69)
Gidney N Cloyd This message was self-deleted by its author.
John Fante
(3,479 posts)this incident to someone stealing an expensive automobile.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)than it does a piece of art.
What is expected? It is expected that valuable art in a community center frequented by families will be behind plexiglass or a rope, with signage, and secured in place.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)the wall, requiring me to replace most of the wall with drywall to replace the towel bar. My home, is (granted) no museum, but like the child climbing on the pedestal in that community center, I am not prepared to have my home used as a jungle gym.
I was kind to the family, who had very begrudgingly suggested they would pay saying " should only be $20 or $30, right?" and ultimately bore the $275 charges to get someone out to replace dry wall, paint, and replace the towel bar myself. The family will NEVER be invited back again, however and I want nothing to do with them again.
No. Parents (and pet owners, for that matter) are responsible for monitoring the behavior of their children--everywhere.
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)Did they pay the full cost, or duck out on the bill?
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)an 18 inch diameter void left in my dry wall and the destroyed towel bar. I paid $275 to replace that entire wall, paint, and replace the bar. That was the cheapest of three estimates I'd gotten to repair it and restore a very necessary half bathroom.
If you think their apology was any better or more sincere than that insulting "begrudging offer" to pay a minuscule part of the true damages, I've got swamp land for you.
Very entitled parents of an "out-of-control" child. The other guests were likewise aghast, so they lost more than just me as a previously close friend.
I don't blame the child. I blame the parents.
I understand the urge of many on this thread to defend the parents of the child who destroyed expensive property. Parenting is tough and they (DU posters) are themselves likely very responsible, teach their kids, and watch them. But, not all parents are so responsible.
RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)I wasn't completely understanding when you said "they bore the cost" whether you successfully twisted their arm to pay up the full amount. I would have taken the assholes to small claims court at that point.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)kcr
(15,317 posts)and a highly fragile art piece?
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)Children not being supervised nor taught how to behave and further (and this goes to your other response to me), a tendency for parents to believe they are NOT responsible for the behavior or destruction of their children. The tendency for some parents to believe otherwise is reprehensible. What are they teaching their children?!
In the art/sculpture example, I would argue the responsibility may be shared with the facility if they failed to properly contain the art, but parents who fail to supervise their children ARE at least partially responsible for the destruction they cause.
I'm not wealthy. Destruction of my entire bathroom wall to the tune of $275 was no small thing. Your casually referring to it as "just a towel bar" was just as insulting as those parents who likewise treated it as no big deal. And YES, those parents had the responsibility to teach their child not to do a chin chin up on a bathroom towel rack. I took the high road and assumed that cost myself in the spirit of Thanksgiving and said nothing more to them. But, I will never socialize with them, nor will the other four couples who were equally aghast at their attitude and irresponsibility.
Parents do bear responsibility for the behavior of their children. Shit happens and surely efforts to ameliorate their burden or repercussions is not necessarily a bad thing. This does NOT mean giving parents a pass on any responsibility whatsoever
kcr
(15,317 posts)and it's not the same. Your towel bar is a functional item permanently attached to the wall. You can't put that away. But if you left your 100,000 dollar vase out teetering precariously on a coffee table while entertaining guests and it gets damaged, you were careless and it's your fault if it gets damaged, regardless of who damaged it.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)Are they COMPLETELY to blame--arguably no, but every bit as irresponsible as the parents who let their child run unattended at my home causing $275 worth of destruction. By your argument the parents could have allowed their child to destroy every and anything not nailed down in my home. Hell, why not.
My gawd, if this is your idea of responsible parenting, I am very thankful you are not my neighbor.
kcr
(15,317 posts)And so the story of a sculpture of hot garbage that is highly overvalued and wasn't anchored properly is going to seem exactly like your story even though it isn't the same at all, and so there is just no discussing this with you.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)teaching their children and monitoring them? I have given those parents the benefit of the doubt that they may not be fully responsible for the statue, just as I gave the parents who thanked me for my hospitality by allowing their child to destroy part of my home with not an ounce of concern.
I wasn't raised that way, would not raise my children that way (or even allow my pets to run wild like that) and when shit inevitably happens, I would show my children that I take responsibility for making amends for the damage that occurred.
What on earth kind of example are you setting for your children to do otherwise?
treestar
(82,383 posts)eventually do something. Meek little children are not generally seen, even in earlier times.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)children and pets in my care--never expected others to be responsible for my own, nor would I want any child of mine to be taught there are no repercussions to mistakes, even those unintentional.
treestar
(82,383 posts)it is not like the child is all that teachable yet as to those things. And if the value of the thing is very high, you might not agree any longer. I recall my sister's nephew by marriage breaking something in my apartment and the parents readily paid to fix it, but it was just a thing in my apartment. If I had a 100K sculpture there, I would have been the one to warn them of the outrageous value of said thing.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)If they don't learn from their parents, even if society gives those parents a "break" on their own consequences, it i is surely not a kindness to these children and their own futures.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But the parents are not getting a "break" where the facility so negligently placed this object. It should have been in a thick glass enclosure. Even in a museum, it might be.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)that would be no parents there at all. But standing around in a social situation saying goodbye, the kids are right there, but if you talk a while, they might wander off. You might notice, but they can do a lot in a second.
A lot of these opinions likely go back to childhood. My parents were forever socializing, especially after church. We wanted to go home! We ended up running around the lobby. But there was nothing there to break. It was a school, and there were some football trophies. Behind glass, even there.
treestar
(82,383 posts)but the car was really crushed. I heard the sentiment; it's only a car; at least you were not hurt.
I recall a priest telling a story where he and his brother's crushed a lamp playing rough. Their mother valued this lamp highly, but said "I can't get another son. I can get another lamp."
Things are things. But People are people. Kids are kids. They do stupid things. They do have to be taught, but they learn along the way, and are taught by doing stupid things.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)I'm appalled some here argue otherwise. Yes, mistakes happen and should be forgiven. But one learns by one's mistakes ONLY by taking responsibility for those mistakes.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I would not guilt and blame a 5-year-old too much. And we don't know what the parents have said to the child about it. They may well have said something.
It's the liability among adults, and there, plenty of responsibility should be assigned those who negligently place this supposedly valuable thing without at least a velvet rope, if not a glass enclosure, in a place that is not an art museum and has a lot of people partying in it.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)I always thought it to be a very ugly side of right wing conservationism to think they should take no responsibility for anything. This whole thread--from self-described progressives disturbs me greatly.
treestar
(82,383 posts)realizing others might have some. Like whoever put that valuable thing in such a vulnerable place.
hlthe2b
(102,298 posts)It seems you are arguing against them having any responsibility whatsoever.
treestar
(82,383 posts)they have none. As in any accident, various parties may be comparatively negligent, some none or on occasion all. Also depends on the law of the state - contributory negligence, comparative, etc.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and who failed to rope or cordon it off, or even post a sign.
But instead of the adults who placed the statue taking responsibility, they're blaming the 5 year old and his mother (who, if the statue had been properly roped off and signed, might have known to warn her son.)
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)for -- at the very least -- roping them off and putting a sign on them.
How is any child supposed to know by looking at that thing that it was a valuable piece of art and not a toy?
Mariana
(14,858 posts)to prevent things like this from happening.
Bettie
(16,111 posts)from Silence of the Lambs.
I'm sure that some would be happy with that, others would still be offended that they have to even share public spaces with children.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)This sculpture was in no way an attractive nuisance. Besides, even that wouldn't excuse the liability of the child/parents for destroying it
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and it was improperly secured, so that it could cause harm. It didn't belong in a place like a community center, frequented by families -- not unless it was cordoned off and properly signed.
The community center is lucky that the child wasn't seriously injured, because it could have been sued by the parents.
https://realestate.findlaw.com/owning-a-home/dangers-to-children-attractive-nuisances.html
Children are playful and curious traits which are important for learning and exploration, but which can also land them in dangerous situations. Everyday objects on other people's property can irresistibly draw children onto the property, but also present them with hidden dangers.
If your property contains items that both draw children in and threaten them with harm, the law places a special responsibility on you to take steps to protect the children who may come onto your property. This duty is generally called the "attractive nuisance" doctrine.
Typically, the attractive nuisance doctrine has three components:
The law doesn't expect children to fully comprehend the dangers they may face
If a property owner has reason to believe that children might come onto their property, the law places a special responsibility on them to prevent harm
If an owner fails to meet this responsibility, they will most likely be held liable for the child's injuries.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)That doctrine applies to child trespassers. In this case, the owner owes the typical duties a property owner owes to licensees or invitees.
And go ahead and read the stuff you posted. Attractive nuisance law concerns the tort liability of the property owner for injuries, not the liability of the child for damage to the owners property.
I always get a kick out of non-lawyers suddenly becoming experts because they read a findlaw article.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)was at faut, not the mother and/or the small child.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)I'm certain it isn't attractive nuisance.
I'm sympathetic to the notion that the center ought to cover the costs, but I know of no legal reason to force them to.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And post #151 cites attractive nuisance.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Arguing that the thing is an attractive nuisance isn't out of the question, proving even trespassing kids could have sued had they been hurt by it, makes it likely it falls into invitee terrority:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitee
SomethingNew
(279 posts)It is a method of establishing a breach of the applicable duty of care in a negligence tort, which requires injury. You can't preemptively sue on the theory that someone might trespass and get hurt.
But, again, none of this has anything to do with liability for the property damage and would not be a defense AT ALL.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that would have been liable had it hurt the kid, in the kid's defense.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)how would that be a defense to liability for the damaged property?
treestar
(82,383 posts)It would buttress the owner's negligence to say he owed a duty to the defendant, rather than the other way round. I would look further regarding invitees, and what damage they do as opposed to damage done to them. But true the case would not be about it unless the kid got hurt and sued.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Attractive Nuisance Elements:
The condition is one of which the possessor knows or has reason to know and which he realizes or should realize will involve an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily harm to such children,
The children, because of their youth, do not discover the condition or realize the risk involved in inter-meddling with it or in coming within the area made dangerous by it
The utility to the possessor of maintaining the condition and the burden of eliminating the danger are slight as compared with the risk to children involved, and
The possessor fails to exercise reasonable care to eliminate the danger or otherwise to protect the children.
Here it could be used as a defense.
SomethingNew
(279 posts)Furthermore, the attractive nuisance doctrine has absolutely nothing to do with offsetting or mitigating liability for damaged property.
Cracklin Charlie
(12,904 posts)Without making sure that it was securely protected against breakage, or theft?
That thing fell right over after a touch from a little kid. I think it should have been properly secured.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)If this was so poorly set that a 5-year-old could knock it down, I think the community center should probably have come up with a way to make sure that didn't happen.
Parents should not have to tie their kids up to make sure they don't bump into anything.
Well, hindsight is 20/20, but this could have been foreseen and prevented by the community center. That is what you're supposed to do.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and it's not roped off or signed.
Why hadn't the artist or community center done anything to keep it from being knocked over? This is on them, not the child.
B2G
(9,766 posts)See my post above.
nini
(16,672 posts)You weren't paying attention to your kid.
LenaBaby61
(6,974 posts)This is one of the potential problems with free-ranging children.
THIS.
As a kid, my parents ALWAYS had me by their side at ALL times whenever I was with one of both of them. I see kids now-a-days, and their parents aren't even near or around them, and it's very alarming.
A friend told me a few weeks ago that she was loading groceries into her jeep, and there was a young child standing at the rear of her jeep bumper. She said she looked around and saw no one. So, she said the took the child (About 5 she said) into the store to the manager's desk. The manager made an announcement describing the child's look/what he was wearing. My friend said 3-4 minutes later, a women came strolling slowly to the manager's desk holding a giant Slurpee. She said the manager told this woman that the boy had been missing for about 10 minutes, and why she didn't notice? My friend said the woman said my son looks okay--he's fine. My friend said the manager went in on this woman. She looked at the manager, Slurpee in hand, and pulled her kid by the arm and left. She said the woman didn't really seem to care--didn't even say thank you for returning her child to her. Wow
The situation I described was very different than the situation in Kansas, but the bottom line is that parents really must watch their children closely at ALL times.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)A three year old and a 17 month old had climbed into an above-ground swimming pool. The three year old climbed back out OK, but the little one couldn't and was found floating face down after five minutes.
The parent? In the kitchen, preparing some food. Fortunately the child survived without any apparent long-term effects. The kids had walked out the door and headed straight for the pool. A video camera was aimed at the pool, but nobody was watching it.
Kids do stuff. They sometimes do stuff that kills them. Parents need to always have an eye on young children. Always.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)From some of the posts in this thread, like the one you've responded to here, you'd think this kind of thing is an entirely new phenomenon that never, ever happened in generations past. "I see kids now-a-days..." the poster said. That's a load of crap. There have always been drownings and near-drownings of children, to use your example, and there have always been kids who accidentally knock things over and break them.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If the kid is old enough, they can learn via telling them they should pay for it, use the paper route money. I agree the bit about the snowflakes of today is getting absurd. The parents can teach that kid that this is something to look out for. But a 5-year-old understanding the art work concept is going to be tough.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)yardwork
(61,657 posts)If this was a museum or arts center I would agree with you. But this was a community center, where young children would be assumed to run and play. Stupid place to put a fragile art installation.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and what it all boils down to. Yes parents should watch kids, but kids in transition of learning not to mess with just anything are going to break things, but in this particular case, who would expect a piece of art work with such a price tag to be there unprotected by anything. And a lot of us don't understand the value (my whole life's work would not be worth the price assigned to that thing - it just doesn't look that valuable to me).
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)had purchased it.
Now he finally sees a way to make some money from it. He thinks it's worth more broken than it ever was intact.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Maybe he should credit the 5-year-old and a co-artist and display it laying broken on the ground. Would make as much sense as a lot of modern art does.
I remember at the Tate in London in the 80s there was a circle of bricks and stones on the floor as a work of art. We discussed how if anyone moved a few of them, they might be creating a different work of art.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)The value of the item doesnt change that.
Now, if it were mine would I have tried to find a way to better secure it to the pedestal? Probably. But that really isnt a factor because the fall didnt happen in the course of reasonable actions- climbing on it is innaby circumstances not appropriate.
And its the parent or guardians responsibility to keep their children from engaging in inappropriate behavior in public, and their responsibility to pay for damages that occur when they fail in that.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The letter is from the insurance company.
Since "you break, you buy" is apparently the applicable rule, can you tell me how the law works in relation to "you pay insurance premiums..."
Because this was a public facility, they are taxpayers, and they are the ones PAYING the insurance on the ridiculously expensive and fragile object placed in a party venue.
On top of their taxes, someone was paying to rent the facility. Do you suppose part of what is paid in insurance was likely factored into the rental fee?
What happened here is that the insurance company got the claim and said "why the fuck did they put that statute in there? we're not paying that!"
The responsibility lies with whomever made the genius decision to put an unstable expensive top-heavy glass sculpture in a multi-purpose community center.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Imagine if this kid had grabbed a lit candle at the wedding, run up to an expensive vintage convertible car the bride and groom were about to ride away in, thrown it inside and caught the car on fire.
The insurance company will pay the car owner. Then the company will come after the kids parents for the money.
Just like when you are in an accident. Say your car is parked and a kid hits it riding a bicycle and does several thousand dollars damage. Your insurance company will pay the claim to fix your car, then they will likely go after the person that hit it to get paid back for that.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I understand why you have to come up with examples which are not public facilities, because you keep having to resort to ones involving private property.
This is a public facility in which a sculpture was negligently mounted.
They are LUCKY the sculpture didn't fall on the kid.
But if the sculpture did fall on the kid and kill the kid, you'd be arguing that the parents needed to pay for the sculpture?
This was a hazard in a public facility.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and the boy tried to catch it but failed. Also, he had some facial injury. So the community center should be glad the boy didnt get more seriously injured, because that would cost them a lot more money.
And the idea that that thing, which was on sale there for 2 months with no takers, was worth whatever the artist thinks it was, is laughable.
Nay
(12,051 posts)negligently mounted and that's that. No need to go any further. The community center knows the type of public that attends at its facilities, and failed to secure the art work so it would not fall easily. They are indeed lucky it did not fall on the poor kid and kill him.
marybourg
(12,633 posts)the law. You are always free to offer a defense to a charge of damaging someones property.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Based on the video its clear the child caused the damage. And its clear there isnt an adult there watching his actions.
Their counter arguemeng will be something like you should have put this up in a way kids could climb on it without damaging it.
And a judge or jury will decide what party is right.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I have never been to a museum which did not have guards.
What are the guards in an art museum for?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Ive been in plenty with no guards and lots of galleries with none.
And Ive never been in a museum with a guard or staff member in every room watching every piece.
There are certain standards of behavior expected or people. Not climbing on an art display is one that pretty much everyone can agree is a pretty basic standard of behavior in a public place.
And while children dont always behave as we expect people to, its the job of the parents to ensure they do. Its not the job of a guard to watch the closeness because the parents are negligent and dont watch them. To blame the place for not having guards because the parents failed to control the child is to say the parents dont have to make kids behave and we need guards everywhere.
If the kid went into an electronics store that had their centerpiece display a $20,000 88 TV and the kid ran up unsupervised and tried to climb it and ripped it from the wall would you blame the store for not mounting it in a way that it could be used as a jungle gym, or not having a guard every 5 feet to stop wild kids?
Its simple. Parents didnt watch kid, kid runs out of sight. Kid tried to use art display as a jungle gym. Unsupervised kid causes damages. Parents are responsible for kids actions.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Again, the electronics store is not relevant.
Does the electronics store rent itself out for parties?
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Its a simple case.
Was the statue damaged? Yes.
Who damaged it? The kid.
How did he damage it? By climbing on it.
Is it reasonable to expect people to climb onto a statute on a pedestal? No.
Who was responsible for the childs actions? The parents.
Did the Parents adequately supervise the child during the time the damages happened? No.
It doesnt matter if there was a guard or not. There could have been a guard at the entrance to the facility or even 10 feet away or the room
Could have been full of guards and that wouldnt have changed who is responsible one single bit. Its not the cities job to provide guards to babysit people children when they fail to keep them under control.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)This piece was on loan. It was taken out of its normal environment and placed into an entirely inappropriate environment free of the normal safeguards which prevent it from injuring people.
The notion that you can rent out a place for wedding receptions, and expect that every child among hundreds that are going to be at dozens of events held there, is going to be under close scrutiny for every millisecond, suggests that there are some people who did not learn important lessons when they were growing up.
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)When your kid breaks something because they are misbehaving and you failed to supervise them, you take responsibility.
You dont whine that its everybodies fault but yours and they should have hired guards to watch for your kids misbehaving or that they should have expected kids to use art displays like jungle gyms so you bear no responsibility.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or the Philadelphia Art Museum? They have guards in every room. Why should they, when the people coming through are responsible? Why do they put ropes around some displays, or glass, or put them behind glass? They should only have to rely on the responsibility of people.
The law of negligence exists and can be argued in any case. It is not just "you break it, you buy it" - that saying is the wish of merchants who find someone accidentally damaged something while in the store.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And that means properly installing heavy and fragile objects so they are secure, and cordoning them off from the public, and posting signs.
marybourg
(12,633 posts)Is it reasonable to expect people to climb on a sculpture? The answer, for a venue that invites children. is "yes ".
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)When I think of a place like a wedding venue I dont, in fact, think its reasonabel to expect kids to be running around unsupervised climbing on art displays like they are playground equipment.
But I seem to be in the camp that actually expects parents to actually act like, well, parents and make their kids behave.
That people think its reasonable to expect children at a wedding venue to treat art displays like playground equipment amazes me. But maybe thats the disconnect here on different expectations for how parents should handle their kids.
marybourg
(12,633 posts)appropriate child discipline is on the conservative side, but facts are facts, and no parent can be within collar-grabbing reach of every child at every minute, especially at a festive event like a wedding. It is incumbent on the owner of th premises to make arrangements appropriate to the projected use and invited audience.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)It's like saying if your kid drowns in a public swimming pool while you were running errands at the store next door that it is the city's fault for putting all that water there and not having lifeguards 24/7.
If the city put up signs saying there was no lifeguard on duty it is not their responsibility to keep the kid out of the water. It is the parent's.
Is it the city's fault when a kid runs into the road for not having guard rails along the full length of every public road? No, it is the parent's responsibility to keep their kid from running into the road, even if they are very young.
If the community hall had had a stairwell and the kid climbed over the railing and fell would it be the fault of the community hall for only having waist high railings instead of floor to ceiling? No. Because we do not have an expectation that every public venue will be 100% childproofed. Because the expectation is that children in public places will be supervised.
The parents took their kid into public. They weren't forced to go to the wedding and they weren't forced to take their kid. They could have gotten a sitter if they wanted to be able to focus on the party instead of their child's wellbeing. They let the kid out of their sight for a significant period of time. The kid started climbing on something they they obviously shouldn't have been climbing on and damaged it. Therefore the parents are responsible.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We never spent the time with parents. They were boring as hell for us. We found the other kids and played. I dont recall there was anything destructible at the venues. Usually they were the type of places that had no expensive art work.
treestar
(82,383 posts)bringing up how long the kid was doing things they were not aware of; how far away the kid was, how old the kid was and whether the parents should foresee that things of over 100K value were out for the kid to mess up.
It may not be a playground, but it is not a glass shop (where you'd expect parent to not bring kid or keep kid by the side in a vise grip every second).
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Usually, the statue wins:
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/police-2-year-old-dies-after-statue-falls-on-him/
A 2-year-old Utah boy was killed when a 6-foot-tall dolphin statue fell on him in the Fishermans Wharf area of San Francisco, police said Monday.
The toddler was apparently playing on Friday when he climbed up and wrapped his arms and legs around the heavy metal statue outside Majestic Collection Art Gallery, bringing it down, police spokesman Officer Gordon Shyy said.
The boy was initially treated for a nose bleed by emergency crews. He was taken to San Francisco General Hospital, where he died from internal injuries a few hours later.
------------
When you say "a place like a wedding venue", you seem to be neglecting that this is a multi-purpose community center used for all sorts of community events.
There are a lot of things that children are not supposed to climb on or touch. The fact of the matter is that a facility which is generally used by the public for all sorts of things is - with absolute certainty - going to include among its thousands of visitors, a child who due to a moment's inattention, is not being watched. It's not a matter of "if" but "when".
Certainly, in the story above, the child shouldn't be climbing on the statue. But this is a very heavy object which a 30 pound kid was able to dislodge, and which crushed him to death. I guess it's just one of those things that nobody could have seen coming (unless, of course, they are very, very stupid).
GReedDiamond
(5,313 posts)...the facility that mounted it without securing it to the pedestal nor roping it off to keep people away from it are responsible for this. And, as has been noted, the facility that did not properly secure the piece is lucky that the kid was not killed or seriously injured by the ugly sculpture.
And, fuck the insurance company for attempting to avoid their responsibility to pay the damages.
fescuerescue
(4,448 posts)To make the owner whole.
Now however, the insurance company is legally entitled to recover damages, assuming they can prove the fault lies with the family. That's standard insurance company 101.
Having said that - I don't think they will collect. I don't see a judge or jury ruling against the family here as I agree that the owners were negligent in putting an expensive sculpture, poorly secured in a public facility.
Ninga
(8,275 posts)shows the fve year old struggling to reach up and grasp the piece.
While it happened quickly, it looks like the kiddo had no problem trying to touch something clearly put out of reach for him.
Kids are born entitled and self center they think everything is for them.
It is exhausting to teach the why's of "don't touch."
The parents are not on solid ground with this one...
Ninga
(8,275 posts)The vid clearly shows the kiddo marching up to the statue and grab it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I did not take my small children to sculpture museums.
I did take my small children to wedding receptions.
I never expected, upon taking my small children to a wedding reception, that I would be unable to dance or socialize with others because I had to watch my children carefully because the wedding reception was being held in a freaking sculpture museum.
The expected foreseeable consequences of running a museum, and running a wedding reception venue, are very different for the persons running them.
Ninga
(8,275 posts)While not taking 5 year olds to a museum is a personal choice, it does not negate the "don't touch" lesson that needs to applied every time the kiddo reaches for something not theirs, or not meant to be touched.
I personally favor art in public spaces, it enhances the environment and gives us pause to ponder.
The kid thought he could, so he did.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...what would you be saying?
Art installations are great. Public hazards, not so much.
Thank you for the parenting lesson. How I raised kids into their 20s and 30s is a complete mystery to me.
What I don't do, is run a public facility with a fragile, unstable and expensive glass sculpture, which I then rent out to groups of people with children.
When is THAT lesson taught?
Ninga
(8,275 posts)can injure when toppled that have not been secured.
Department stores, displays in grocery stores, displays on wire racks, climbing on books shelves and dressers, on and on.
Admonishing children is a parents job.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Here's the thing... if you rent out a facility for parties, it is reasonably foreseeable that there will be children. There will be blind people as well (as one of mine is). Children, blind people, people who have been drinking in this party venue, are going to bump into things. Over any number of statistical samples, shit happens.
It is the responsibility of a person in charge of such a facility to ensure that hazards such as a glass sculpture are at least secured appropriately in view of the reasonably foreseeable consequences of renting the facility out for parties.
Ninga
(8,275 posts)The kid had no business touching. I would not let the parents off scott free.
A video showing a blind person bumping into the statue would be dreamed an accident vs. a
deliberate, unsupervised action.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)elleng
(130,978 posts)and Contracts @ Wedding Receptions!
Enjoying this thread, berryhill!!!
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)csziggy
(34,136 posts)Here is the entire piece:
The base, the "column," and the statue are all one piece.
I don't understand why this piece was not roped off. While that might not have stopped the child from approaching it, that might have discouraged most people from getting within "hugging" distance.
sinkingfeeling
(51,461 posts)womanofthehills
(8,721 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)been roped or cordoned off, which could have stopped the boy. We'll never know.
JenniferJuniper
(4,512 posts)for the boy's "injuries" and PTSD.
I think we're all tired uncontrolled kids roaming public spaces, but I will say that was a dumb exhibit.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)and was looking at this brilliant, vivid, pallet-knife oil painting and I was wondering if the paint had actually dried (local artists show). I compulsively reached out to the edge of the canvas frame just to see - and a guard yelled out, "Don't touch the paintings!"
He followed me everywhere I went after that to the embarrassment of my family.
Anything of value displayed in public has to be watched and protected (insured) - there are impulsive dumbasses like me and children everywhere in America!
Aristus
(66,397 posts)If you can't discipline your little ankle-biter, you're going to have to pay the price.
Ninga
(8,275 posts)Don't touch means don't touch. It matters not if it a department store, community center or museum.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)womanofthehills
(8,721 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)usually indicates a child-hater so with luck, those usually don't have kids.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)It is the parents who cause us grief with their generally consistent sense of entitlement when it comes to society and their little angels.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)the things that can be safely touched -- are not obvious to a child.
And what is "art" and what is a big toy isn't necessarily obvious to a child.
Here is a typical community center. Look at all the things that can be touched. Chairs, tables, foos ball tables, a pool table, exercise equipment, doors, floors, and other surfaces.
From a young child's perspective, the rules on what can and can't be touched seem arbitrary and sometimes surprising -- especially because their developmental stage means that they LEARN through touching. Their brains drive them to touch. It takes years for most children to learn the adult rules on touching.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/18/trump-aides-plan-fresh-immigration-crackdowns-before-midterms-652246
Ninga
(8,275 posts)share responsibilty with the community center.
I saw the vid. Looks like he wanted to take it home.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and had been roped off or otherwise cordoned off. It wasn't. There was no notice to anyone that the statue posed a hazard.
Ninga
(8,275 posts)statues and bowls, and vases of flowers, and pictures in frames, all of which rightly can be perched on pedestals, unroaped off and exposed to all.
Yes, the community center should have secured....but the kiddo was out of control.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)is nothing like a quiet church.
The facility managers failed to do their job to protect the public.
Fla Dem
(23,693 posts)But in this situation, it was a public community center, not an art gallery. The township/city should have secured that exhibit better. The artist who loaned out the sculpture should have insured that it was in a protected area, not standing in the middle of a common area. He says it was worth $132,000, it should have been protected like a $132,000 object. And how damaged could that art piece be? Looks like it was made out of metal. Finally, if that item was so irresponsibly placed that a 5 year old could topple it, the onus it on the artist and the community.
If I was the parent, I would sue both of them for the physical and emotional damage they allowed to be visited on my child.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)destroyed. looks fixable
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)when the item was still intact (based on the fact that it took him a long time to make it -- which is how no art is ever appraised.)
MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)This is a classic subrogation case.
Hopefully parents have at least 100k in homeowners insurance and city insurance accepts policy limits to settle the whole claim.
Some of our jurors hate subrogation cases and others are just fine with the idea that the insurance company recoups its losses from the person who caused the damage (usually from their carrier)
Comments above are helpful to understanding the jury pool. 1. Some, anti-insurance 2. Some, anti-mothers. (Both parents were there; mother is one presumed to be at fault)
If I were settling a claim, I would take into account whether the art piece was cordoned off from the public or too accessible. If I were assessing the claim for the parents, I would pay only what the city actually paid for the art. Also, homeowners insurance would tell mother not to give interviews.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)JenniferJuniper
(4,512 posts)the burden on the subrogating carrier would be to prove negligent supervision. So seems like a compromise case to me. The piece is ridiculous and it seems his parents were ahead of him or behind him.
With that said, I'd be very surprised if the parents don't sue on behalf of the kid. The mother was talking about his injuries in the the video.
MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)If the family only has the typical 100k homeowners, the insurer will tender limits. By the looks of their home, they may have 300 plus coverage and their carrier can afford to play around a bit with the claim, try to push it lower.
EllieBC
(3,016 posts)Secured because there are tons of kids there always for events, the ice arena, swimming, etc..
No one with half a brain would not secure a sculpture in a place with high traffic or where kids are around often.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)It's much more fun to blame the child and his mother, for turning her back while saying goodbye to her hosts.
KG
(28,751 posts)worked well all my life.
i'm kinda tired of other peoples kids running around in public spaces while they plaintively request their little bastards sit and be quiet.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)KG
(28,751 posts)Last edited Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:47 PM - Edit history (1)
I rolled on the floor too
treestar
(82,383 posts)more care and less negligence from adults who are aware of the value of things? You don't just leave that to random parents out there.
Cha
(297,323 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)I was perfect and so were my children!
My parents were constantly telling me not to touch things oh really? So I assume you were touching things otherwise why were they constantly telling you not to touch things?
My partner got in to an argument with his co-worker about losing kids at a zoo after that gorilla was shot due to the kid falling in the enclosure. How can you lose a kid!?!? My partner said.
A couple weeks later we took our 5 year old nephew and his mom to the Chicago museums and the Shed Aquarium.
At the end of the day, my partner called his co-worker and apologized. Lol.
By the and of the day, I was ready to feed the kid to the sharks.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)because they wanted to teach me to take responsibility for my actions and accept the consequences. Then I didn't get my allowance for a while or had to do extra chores or something else proportional and age appropriate to make up for it.
Nobody expects kids and their parents to be perfect all the time. But when they destroy shit they should own up for it and try to make amends. Otherwise what kind of example is it setting for the kid? Anytime anything bad happens it is always someone else's fault... The mother is a classic example of that kind of irresponsible entitled attitude.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)Did your parents keep a checkbook handy for breakage?
Did your parents ever get taken advantage of? I mean since they never asked any questions.
I find these threads fascinating. They bring out the this subset of families that were constantly paying for broken stuff.
I honestly dont remember me or any of my siblings ever causing my parents to pay for broken stuff. Let alone several (was it several?) years of bill paying.
Its not like my parents stiffed people out of their due. We didnt even live under some authoritarian regime. It just never came up.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)We went to buy a car when I was six and my brother was five. My brother got into one of the cars, put it into neutral and because the car was parked on an incline it rolled back and hit another car parked behind it. My parents paid to repair both cars. They didn't stand around arguing about the fact that the car was on a slope, or that a five year old was able to move one because the emergency brake wasn't on or hey, what are all these cars doing here? They acknowledged that they brought a child into public and then didn't watch what he was doing carefully enough and that therefore they needed to pay up for the damage he inadvertently caused.
They probably did end up paying more than the actual cost of the repairs because they were so mortified but also because they wanted to set an example for us.
When I was sixteen I was taking classes at the community college and had to drive to them and the only place to park was in a gravel section with no marked spaces where you had to drive around a loop to get out. After I'd parked, someone else parked too close to the turn and when I tried to turn around them, I scraped their bumper and crushed in the side of my car. It was only some paint scratches on their bumper, but I left a note, the owner called and said the whole bumper needed to be replaced. And we paid for it - even though it took my whole summer's wages. Because when you damage someone else's stuff, even when you didn't do it on purpose, you take responsibility and cough up. You don't sue the community college for not having a paved parking area with marked spaces. You don't blame the other person for parking too close to the turn. And you don't sit around arguing about the bill when you are clearly at fault.
treestar
(82,383 posts)responsible 100% where the legal system would have gone easier on them. That was quite the attractive nuisance.
People do indeed sue the community college for not having adequate parking. And was someone so irresponsible as to now have insurance on the car? How can it take a whole summer's wages for what would have been a minor repair? What was the deductible? What if the other person did park negligently. You don't put yourself on a cross and flagellate yourself. You let others take responsibility where they are responsible.
And your virtues don't prove that this case is all on the parents 100%. If another entity was negligent, they get to pay for their part. How is it irresponsible not to ding yourself for the whole thing if you were not the only one negligent?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Though I expect you were older. 5-year-olds are generally not even getting an allowance yet and don't have chores specifically assigned to them, or if they do, the parents remind them. 5 is not old enough to understand paying for that mistake.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)And five is old enough to understand that you shouldn't break other people's things and if you do you should try to make amends at least by apologizing and ideally by replacing or repairing what you broke.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)You don't know what else she had to say that didn't get aired. You don't know what questions she was answering when she said what you did hear. You have no idea if she is "blaming everyone under the sun except herself and her kid".
treestar
(82,383 posts)Where she is not blaming everyone under the sun. Who she blames is not relevant anyway. The law of negligence would put a lot on the community center leaving this expensive piece unprotected. And the short clip does not address what she said to the child and how she handled it with him.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is no doubt a process. At 5, you can forget yourself easily.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)It takes time, and frequent reminders, for children to learn that it is fine to touch the chairs, the dining tables, the dishes, the cabinets, the foos ball table, the pool table, the doors, etc. -- but not the big "art" piece that looks like a kid's construction toy.
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)and her child was not well behaved. I was taught at the age of 2 or 3 -- hands in your pockets or behind you back. I did grow up in a art house, so that may have made a difference, but if your child doesn't know not to touch, then that is not well behaved. JMHO and I am often wrong.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Why don't I believe that.
I was taught, at a much older age, not to place hazards in public facilities and rent them out for parties.
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)were close family or friends' affairs, and mother did tell the waiter I could have this much champagne in a cup. She neglected to tell him just one. But I still didn't go and grab shit that wasn't mine or told I could grab. The preschool doesn't teach "Mother may I?" or respect for others' things?
Sorry, I also think that people who take their dogs on walks on public land should pick up their poop. I'm not saying this child is an animal, but I'm saying his parents are responsible.
H2O Man
(73,559 posts)I say we must send him to one of Session's concentration camps. And throw away the key! Fucking kids these days. Every responsible adult knows that children his age -- much less the 2 and 3 year olds you mention -- do not learn about the outside world from touching. It's unnatural. Time he learns about life on the inside of a cell.
nini
(16,672 posts)There it is - 'responsible'. The mom was not being responsible in keeping a close eye on her child.
People can whine that the expensive art shouldnt have been there all day long. But that doesnt matter. It was there, legally, and had people acted responsibly it wouldnt have been damaged.
Sure, a pure accident could have happened. Someone slips and falls and hits it. A blind person runs into it, etc. In those cases the insurance company would pay and be done.
In this case there was negligence. The child attempted to climb on it or attempted to pull it off the pedestal. The child was unsupervised at the time. So the negligent party in this case was the parent.
They can argue thats partially mitigated by how its displayed. But how it was displayed was perfectly fine for expected behaviors with an art display. And had they maintained control of the child the damage wouldnt have happened, so they beat the majority if not all the responsibility.
That people think parents who let their child run unsupervised and damage things bear zero responsibility amazes me.
nini
(16,672 posts)That setup certainly didn't help and should play into the scenario as you say. But being the kid was able to hang on it for a bit without her intervention shows she was negligent.
There's nothing better than a DU fight on parenting LOL
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)These were full grown adults who couldnt pick a different route because they thought it was a good idea to drive under a bridge while it was being built.
Or people who crash their cars and then get upset they were hurt by exploding airbags. Heres a tip - if you dont want shards of metal flying into your face from an airbag, then dont drive your car into stuff.
Some people.
treestar
(82,383 posts)nini
(16,672 posts)Not always.. they're adults. The blind people I know use a cane and tap around before running into things so they'd know to stop.
Really lame analogy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That assumes it would be covered if a blind person ran into it. So presumably they believe that blind people are in danger of running into it.
Then there are the drunk adults. This is a wedding
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)The statue didn't fall because someone casually bumped into it or tapped it with a cane. It fell because a fifty pound child was repeatedly yanking it down onto himself for the better part of a minute.
Is your expectation that every public space needs to be designed so that no behavior, no matter how irrational, unpredictable or devoid of regard for personal safety, could possibly harm anyone? Because if so, we wouldn't have any public space - no trees, blind people could walk into them; no benches - people can trip on them; no rivers or fountains - toddlers could drown in them; no playgrounds - kids can kick each other on the slides, fall off the platforms, hang themselves on the rope ladders; no roads - cars crash all the time; no animals allowed in public parks - some of them bite or carry infectious diseases... let's just encase the whole world in bubble wrap and call it a day.
Or we can acknowledge that parents have a responsibility to supervise and keep their own kids safe in public spaces and, if they are not able or inclined to do that, they need to leave their kids at home until they are old enough not to need that level of supervision.
treestar
(82,383 posts)about various public spaces. You know you have to watch kids on a playground. Or near water.
But at a wedding in a community center how are you to know there might be expensive art pieces? And if you put up an expensive art piece where there are going to be a lot of people, then you know some will be children and that you need to secure it since it is so expensive.
I don't think these parents had a reasonable expectation that there was expensive artwork at this wedding venue. If they were in a museum, it would be different.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)Two eyes and common sense?
You look in the room before your child goes in there and say: "there's a piece of sculpture that looks expensive and isn't guarded maybe I shouldn't let my kid run around unsupervised in this room".
Seriously anything could have happened to this kid. He could have been kidnapped. If that was the case would we be saying "the community centre is at fault because nobody could have a reasonable expectation that if they let their kid run wild in public while they stood around chatting in another room something bad could happen to him or to someone else. It's everyone else's job to watch this person's kid like a hawk at all times"? Of course not.
Because *anywhere* in public is dangerous for little kids. That's why they have parents in the first place - who are supposed to apply common sense to when and where their kids need to be supervised.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or not to think it was expensive. Kidnapping is rare, especially from such an event, and you can't always stay home due to that fear.
But I find your second paragraph crazy. I don't notice half the crap in a public room.
Moosepoop
(1,920 posts)You said that "It fell because a fifty pound child was repeatedly yanking it down onto himself for the better part of a minute."
The video at the newser.com link in the OP shows the boy running to the sculpture, stopping in front of it at the the two-second mark, starting to climb it at the three-second mark, and the top piece of the sculpture hitting the floor at the thirteen-second mark.
So about 10 seconds from moment he first touched it, which is not remotely close to "the better part of a minute."
I didn't see the "repeatedly yanking it down" part you mentioned, either. I saw him put his hands on it, and then spend a good 4 or 5 seconds of those ten trying to keep it from falling after it started tipping forward.
Is there a different video with a different timeline and different actions than the one shown?
If not, I'd have to say that an unsecured $132,000 art piece capable of being toppled in 10 seconds by a five-year-old shouldn't have been placed in a community center whose website proclaims:
"From toddlers to seniors, TRCC offers a fun and active environment that everyone in your family can enjoy."
https://www.opkansas.org/things-to-see-and-do/community-centers/tomahawk-ridge-community-center/
A facility that markets itself to families with toddlers has no business putting extremely expensive, fragile, and dangerous items in the common areas of that fun and active family environment that they advertise. That's just common sense.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:44 AM - Edit history (1)
and the way the people in the foreground are swaying and how fast the woman in the left corner is walking away. It also looks like there are some jump cuts to shorten it.
At :10 the child is pulling the statue onto himself. He lifts it out of whatever is securing it, then takes his hands off it and steps back and the statue is still secured to the base and on a tilt. Then he goes back and pushes it again and it falls over. He may have been trying to push it back into place, but the point is that it wasn't knocked over by someone momentarily backing into it (which is the comparison I was responding to). It was pushed over by a kid repeatedly pushing and pulling on it. We also don't know what the kid was doing before the excerpt shown on the news since it starts with the kid already standing on the plinth with his arms around the statue.
If it's x3 it's at least 30 seconds not counting the time the kid was approaching a dangerous distance to the statue and anything else he was doing before the video starts (probably at least 40 seconds at a minimum where an adult who was paying attention could have intervened). If it's x10 it's at least a minute and a half.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I recall weighing 55 in 4th grade - 5 year-olds don't weigh that much.
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)You break it, you buy it. Can't pay the price? Hold your small child's hand at all times. Hugging statues is not what you should do to someone's art.
I'm hoping you were just jesting and you do think his parents have culpability over their child's actions. Maybe I am too old to be on this planet.
left-of-center2012
(34,195 posts)33taw
(2,444 posts)Protect expensive objects. The insurance company is trying to back out of paying. Just because the insurance company sent a bill does not mean that the family owes the money. Let the insurance company take them to court. 10-1 the insurance company doesnt want to waste the time and money to litigate their claim.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Homeowner's insurance can cover a surprising range of things.
Every now and then a "news story cum torts exam question" gets posted to DU, in complete obliviousness to the maneuverings of insurance companies playing "pin the liability tail on the donkey" which is really going on.
As a lawyer who was once seated on a jury, I had to restrain myself from screaming when my fellow jury members were saying "But wouldn't their insurance company have covered this?" when, what was actually going on, was an injury case in which a health insurer and an auto insurer were using their customers as pawns to determine which insurance company should pay.
Freethinker65
(10,024 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)That's what most at DU would likely believe.
There are people here at DU who believe that if a zoo does not contain a tiger against obnoxious patrons, then the patrons deserve to die.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)Devil Child
(2,728 posts)I am ok with them becoming a tiger chew toy. Natural consequences and all.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)A few years ago, some zoo patrons were taunting a tiger at a zoo in San Francisco. The tiger got out and mauled one.
Because those patrons were of low character, it was okay with most here that a provoked tiger could escape.
This child and his family deserve a public commendation for neutralizing an obvious hazard.
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)To the point that it escapes the enclosure to stop the antagonizing behavior then yes you deserve to be a tiger chew toy.
The family (not the child) deserve continued public condemnation for the child's behavior and more importantly the externalization of blame by the parent in interviews.
Just my 2 cents.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)If you are at a zoo, part of the risk you consider normal is that some member of the public, a known percentage of which may be psychotic or emotional disturbed, may provoke a tiger to escape an inadequate enclosure and kill you.
Because the usual assumption is that one who is displaying dangerous animals to the public has the responsibility to ensure that the enclosure is adequate to prevent the animal from leaving it under any circumstances.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and nothing that would indicate to the child that it wasn't a big doll.
treestar
(82,383 posts)but the standard for reasonable is different.
Torts are based on what the reasonable prudent person would do. Then the standard changes for the reasonable prudent person in an emergency (recognizes there is no time for as much reflection)
https://lawshelf.com/courseware/entry/torts-of-minors
Minors Liability for Own Torts
A minor is responsible for his or her own torts. However, the court will often apply a more lenient standard. In determining tort liability for children, there are special rules, usually based on the age of the minor. Historically, there was a bright-line test based on the childs age. Specifically:
Under age 7: A child could not be negligent.
Between age 7 and 14: There was a rebuttable presumption that the child could not be negligent.
Between age 14 and 21: There was a rebuttable presumption that the child was capable of negligence.
Use of a subjective test, has replaced the old use of the chronological age test. This test deals with the capacity of a particular child to recognize and avoid risk and harm. Factors considered in this analysis include:
Age
Intelligence
Experience
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)I dont care how the piece was displayed or where, children are the responsibility of their parents. If the parents dont want to supervise them, they should leave them at home.
aikoaiko
(34,172 posts)But I'm not impressed with the parent trying to trump up the child's injuries, saying that she was "just around the corner" not minding her child, and saying that the art had no place being there (fuck that noise).
True Dough
(17,311 posts)I read through all the posts and I see the validity in arguments from various sides. I'm just glad I'm not the parents, or the responsible party for setting up the venue!
JenniferJuniper
(4,512 posts)Whether the kid is a brat or not is not relevant. He's too little to be responsible. It's the idiot adults on both sides who are at fault for what happened.
Cha
(297,323 posts)both sides.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And to see everys approach to them
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)the headlines would be quite different. I think the museum had a responsibility to secure the sculpture in some way, roping it off or making it less approachable by a child. This is especially true if the museum has rented out the place for a private social event.
There is plenty of blame to go around, including by the artist in not making recommendations in hpw to secure it, in what ways it could be dangerous, unstable, etc. I'm a bit surprised that the artist has no desire to fix it, if possible.
logosoco
(3,208 posts)This does not really seem to be the type of thing to be displayed in this manner at a community center. It should have been well secured if it was that valuable. Or there should have been one of those rope stands around it.
When my three kids were young, we had a special "umbrella" policy as part of our home owners insurance that would cover any damage they caused away from home. Luckily we never needed it. One day, I took my three kids and four other kids to the St. Louis Art museum. Doesn't sound smart, but it really was fun and interesting for all of us! We started down in the old relics and one of the kids did bump into a display stand and my heart stopped, but it did no harm. As we got up to the modern art, there were so many guards watching everything so closely I almost felt like I could have just let the kids go on their own and they would have been well supervised.
Kids do need to know when it's okay to have hands on and they do need to be told when to not touch things. It really seems like this sculpture was too tempting for the little boy and maybe his parents were being lax since it had no protection or signs. Perhaps I would have been more in the "stay away from that thing" mode as a parent just for common sense. The sculpture looks to easy to push over. They are lucky the kid was not hurt. And I think they should pay something, maybe not the amount listed in the article though.
Yonnie3
(17,444 posts)There should be some sort of settlement meeting where all pony up.
I have worked hundreds of wedding parties in many different venues providing a sound system for bands. Too many parties were in museums and historic houses. These spaces are incredibly ill suited for such a party. In many cases we believe a mother picked the space for esthetics and the couple picked the band for a hard party, hence the mismatch.
We have a saying, "A space is not always a music venue."
We realize there will be drunks, children etc. We expect drunks falling on equipment, kids messing with gear, complaints of turn it up, turn it down (at the same time), drink spills and so on. We select and use gear that doesn't easily tip over or get easily damaged. We plan for reality, unlike many of the venues
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)because he has piss poor parents.
How dare they take a 5 year old toddler out in public and not have control of him at all times!
In response, the mother said, My children are well-supervised"<-----Total lie, I wonder if these people are Red Hats?
Pay up idiots!
Bettie
(16,111 posts)1. The top should have been secured so it didn't fall off the rest of the statue.
2. If it is that valuable, they should have had some ropes like they did on the sides of the piece to the right of it.
3. Seems like a fragile, extremely expensive piece shouldn't be in an area where there are often large groups of people without, at very least a barrier around it.
4. Even well-behaved children aren't perfect. Adults are also not perfect. This could easily have happened in a number of other ways and I'm betting people wouldn't be declaring that all children are brats or doing the "when I was a kid, no one ever acted like a kid, we stood at attention like tiny adult soldiers 24/7!" had an adult managed to knock the hideous thing over.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)And a five year old should know enough not to climb on a sculpture no matter where it is, museum, community center, park, zoo or shopping mall, all have sculptures.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)You haven't seen enough toys if you think a child couldn't mistake this thing for one.
https://www.amazon.com/Construction-Preschool-Educational-Imagination-Intelligence/dp/B074GXGGT5/ref=sr_1_43?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1529355325&sr=1-43&keywords=building+toy+magnetic
ck4829
(35,077 posts)Chile, Nicaragua, etc. never learn about this concept.
haele
(12,660 posts)It looks like some of the cement mosaic climbing structures that have been installed in a lot of community play areas, typically on those rubber mat surfaces for injury protection. My youngest grandchild runs to them constantly, she loves climbing on them.
It doesn't excuse either the kid or the community center for displaying such an object out in the open - where maybe someone could have been accidentally knocked into it moving through a nearby crowd.
Why wasn't it enclosed in a case? If you didn't want someone to touch it or anything to happen to something that delicate, a $200 or so glass case would have been the answer up front.
Haele
womanofthehills
(8,721 posts)Climb up to the summit!!
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)And like most parents I know, quick to externalize blame and not take ownership for their child's actions.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)over the amount of angst this thread has generated when on our border there are children going to sleep not knowing why they are without their parents. Let's get a grip. Whole lot of stupid choices can be spread around there. Even when taught good behavior, small children behave carelessly. In the grand scheme of things today, this is a blip and will be sorted out between the parties over money.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)Sheesh
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I really think these type threads are getting so much attention because we are all so sick of having to post on the precarious nature of our nation.
It is somewhat refreshing to fight about what in the end is a trivial matter!
nini
(16,672 posts)It's always the best topic to start a flamewar.
avebury
(10,952 posts)of displaying the piece at the Community Center and who was in the wrong, the child was in fact responsible for what happened. As it was a minor child, the parent are responsible for their child's actions. It is totally normal for an Insurance Company to look for the the person/persons responsible for damaging the item that they insured. They pay out the claim and then look to recoup their costs. Like it or not, that is life.
I grew up in an era where parents drilled into their children's heads how to behave in public. I would never have dreamed of running around in an out of control manner (nor would the any of the kids I grew up with). There are some great parents out there who watch their children like hawks but there are also parents out there who don't and those are the parents who will blame everybody else but themselves (or their children) when incidents like this happen.
If the parents only brought one child and both parents attended the wedding then there is no excuse for them allowing the child out of their sight since you have a 2:1 ratio. Knocking over an expensive sculpture is not the only danger children face in this time and place.
It is too bad that the bride and groom didn't hold a child free wedding.
Rorey
(8,445 posts)I would think that it's to cover accidents.
The fact is, insurance companies will do everything they can to get out of paying a claim. This needs to go to court. I think the insurance company will lose.
Bettie
(16,111 posts)Insurance Companies are in the business of, well, insuring things.
They collect a whole lot of money, but when it comes to paying out, they usually will find a way to weasel out of it.
Which begs the question: why even bother with insurance, if the company you're paying won't hold up their end of the bargain?
d_r
(6,907 posts)that the child didn't get hurt from that thing falling on him. Negligence from the community center.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Why should community centers?
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2017/06/happen-accidentally-knocked-ming-vase-museum/
benld74
(9,904 posts)Anything in loan
Should be properly secured
This is fault
Of those showing the piece
Its NOT
The kids fault
Its NOT
The kids familys fault
So stop saying the kid should have been leashed
Like a pet
Stop saying
When I wanna a kid
Think people
LAS14
(13,783 posts)The parents are evil and negligent but somehow it's ok and *not* negligent for a $132,000 statue to be unsecured, tippy, and un-watched?
Rorey
(8,445 posts)Every year at Christmastime she displayed her Three Kings in a high-traffic and unstable place. Every year there would be damage because when you have a house full of people things happen. Every year she'd play the "Woe is me" card. I quit caring about it early on.
The same went for her complaining about kids spilling a drink in her downstairs (basement) family room and staining the carpet. She'd banish the kids downstairs and the adults would be upstairs. And she'd give them red Kool-aid to drink (!!!) Gosh, what could go wrong???
Now I have my own grandchildren. I've always had a few "Grandma's House Rules", but sometimes things happen. Lessons are learned and life goes on. (My husband is the one who will invariably spill something or scratch something. And then like a little kid he'll deny it. )
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Pay up Mommy. Not everyone loves your children.
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)320-Million-Year-Old Rock Formation Destroyed by Vandals in England
Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty Destroyed in Seconds by Teens
But that was only part of what vandals did to Ice Age relic
SEE MORE
Devil Child
(2,728 posts)The park should've put up a sign, a fence, or bolted those rocks down!
They could have been hurt!
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)them work in the parks for 5 years cleaning shit like this off rocks and trails and trees and what ever the brats want to destroy.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)They should have put ropes around it to protect people from the statue falling and should have posted signs.
You can't put frafile art in a public space and hope it gets broken so you can get a big insurance payoit...that's not how it works. Sounds like insurance fraud and an accident waiting to happen.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are whoever thought it was a good idea to place a delicate and expensive art work in a place that would hold weddings.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Their homeowners versus the city. Watch this to get reconciled at a much lower price.
Liability has not been established. And, children under 7 can't be guilty of negligence under the law.
If a five-year old can pull it off the column, there is a lot of negligence on the part of the exhibitors.
LiberalFighter
(50,953 posts)If she can't keep an eye on her child to keep him out of trouble then she should not have brought him to the wedding. If that sculpture had managed to knock something else over and killed him she would be responsible for his death. Not the community center or anyone else.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)Distracted the next time?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)nothing more.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... to the sculpture. The other accidentally spills her plate of cake on the first one's dress. The first one jumps back and knocks over the sculpture. Who should have been supervising? I'd say the facilities manager at the community center that allowed the sculpture to be displayed in such a vulnerable way.
All of this self-righteousness based on the assumption that there are no accidents in our perfect world, only blameworthy incidents, makes me tired.
meadowlander
(4,399 posts)He was deliberately climbing it for the better part of a minute before it fell over with the parents nowhere in sight.
That's not an accident. It is negligence.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)There is not a distinction. Acts are intentional or negligent and the result of negligence is called an accident.
liberalmuse
(18,672 posts)If you are insuring a $132k sculpture, and that sculpture is being displayed anywhere where kids are going to be, you take measures to make sure it is well-protected. I see the parents winning this one.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)100% THEIR negligence.
If the artwork was that valuable, and on loan to them, they had an obligation to protect it. A person (kid or adult) knocking into it was foreseeable. True enough, the kid did more than accidentally knock into it. But if the Community Center did what they SHOULD have done to protect it. the kid would never have had the opportunity.
Sorry Mr. Insurance Company, but your insured is at fault. And so are you for not insisting that such on-loan treasures are protected.
As to the kid . . . . . I'd like to buy him an ice cream to make him feel better and let him go home with Mom and relax.
mokawanis
(4,443 posts)who can then, in lawyer-speak, tell the insurance company to take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. The community center failed to properly secure the piece and should take the blame for any damages. It's not the kid's fault and it's not the parent's fault.
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)As someone who was in art and design school, I know that instructors will take students to task for poor construction. I was told repeatedly that while your concept might be lovely, it has to be solidly constructed. Seriously. I don't respect the artist for making something where the top can be knocked off by a child that easily. Art isn't just about someone's "vision" or "expression" - that's a romantic notion that lay people have about art - it's also about skills and execution. Otherwise someone could just do the same thing with chicken wire.
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,586 posts)Any act of willful misconduct of a minor which results in injury or death to another person or in any injury to the property of another shall be imputed to the parent or guardian having custody and control of the minor for all purposes of civil damages, and the parent or guardian having custody and control shall be jointly and severally liable with the minor for any damages resulting from the willful misconduct.
Subject to the provisions of subdivision (c), the joint and several liability of the parent or guardian having custody and control of a minor under this subdivision shall not exceed twenty-five thousand dollars ($ 25,000) for each tort of the minor, and in the case of injury to a person, imputed liability shall be further limited to medical, dental and hospital expenses incurred by the injured person, not to exceed twenty-five thousand dollars ($ 25,000). The liability imposed by this section is in addition to any liability now imposed by law.
See Cal. Civ. Code § 1714.1(a) (2005).
I don't know if her state has a similar statute, but it definitely has one less statue.
FakeNoose
(32,649 posts)Thanks
kcr
(15,317 posts)it should have died in a fire. He's a hero.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)That's what Musk calls his flamethrowers, LOL!
Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)
Oneironaut This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)
MFM008 This message was self-deleted by its author.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)To one of us for touching ANYTHING when we were out kept us kids in line.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)I don't have the patience to look, and you can't always tell, of course, but I wonder how many of the "parents should keep a close watch on their kids" respondents are parents themselves? For sure a lot weren't.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)not adequately supervising the children, are the same people who, on other threads, describe their own childhoods during which they spent huge amounts of time unsupervised and got into all kinds of mischief.
treestar
(82,383 posts)for breaking something, and still feel the sting of that. But then the age is relevant. If you break something at 8 or more, it is worth teaching the kid about it. At 5, not so much. That kid doesn't get it yet and at that age, you are just only starting to realize there is a world out there which is not your family.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)We try to only take her places that are appropriate for her. When we take her to those places we let down our guard somewhat. A community center definitely fits the bill. Our expectation would be that a community center is hardened against kids causing damage to anything there and also kid-proofed so our little one wouldnt be hurt. Were still pretty protective but not quite the same as if we found ourselves somewhere that is not aimed at having children.
This OP and thread has made me more nervous about taking our child out. Perhaps now, in a similar situation I would call the venue in advance and ask them if they have properly secured the environment.
If I was on the jury I would side with the parents.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)dsc
(52,163 posts)This child was utterly unsupervised. He climbed on the piece and broke it. Depending upon how vulnerable this piece was I could see putting say 20% of the negligence upon the center but the rest is the parents. Why they think it is OK to have their child utterly unsupervised is beyond me.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They were there.
I recall being in church after church running around the building while my parents chit chatted and socialized. We didn't happen to break anything - there was nothing there to break really.
dsc
(52,163 posts)that isn't supervision. I am charged in my class when I teach if I leave the room and can't see them or hear them and something happens I am going to be blamed, righteously for not supervising them.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)dsc
(52,163 posts)and those rooms have self contained bathrooms so no he wouldn't be out of ear shot in the bathroom.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)meadowlander
(4,399 posts)I was a substitute teachers and all the kindergarten classes I taught had classroom aides who would take the kids to the bathroom when they needed to go.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... to school by myself. On my daughter's second day in kindergarten, she and her friend walked the half mile to school by themselves.
We've gone overboard in thinking we need to/can control everything.
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is a different venue with different things foreseeable and different conditions. If something happened to the kids in the class, it would not be destroying expensive artwork. I would bet you and the school know better than to put a breakable artwork in the classroom.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)dsc
(52,163 posts)Thus one can assume they couldn't hear him.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)of the bride, after a wedding reception.
I don't know where this 'utterly unsupervised" comes from. Show me a parent who has never turned her back briefly on her child, and I'll show you a liar.
dsc
(52,163 posts)the kid is out of ear and eye shot of his parents. If they couldn't mind him maybe they should have left him at home.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)GreatCaesarsGhost
(8,584 posts)But that didn't stop Homer.
Emilio Mola
(7 posts)That's the drill I've always used.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)It might look like art to most adults, but it could look like a toy or a climbing structure to a small child. And it wasn't even secured in place.
It's lucky the child wasn't seriously hurt. The community center could have faced a much greater liability in that case.
And the idea that this thing was worth $130K was just the artist's wishful thinking. He had had it on sale with NO TAKERS. Art is only worth what someone will pay for it, not what the artist dreams for.
BannonsLiver
(16,398 posts)Im sure the kid was scared out of his wits to have broken something like that and I feel for the parents who have to be stressed out about their financial future, and for the artist who lost a piece.
To me the definitive case on stuff like this is with harambe where lousy, inattentive parents let their little hellion climb into an enclosure that led to the death of a confused animal. Thats bad parenting 101.
Baitball Blogger
(46,743 posts)Looks like the kid was intentionally trying to bring it down.
Not arguing that precautions should have been taken on everyone's side.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and if he drowned, the parents could win a case against the owners of the pool for not fencing it off.
There's something called an attractive nuisance -- and when you have one, you don't get to blame the kid who got attracted to it.
cvoogt
(949 posts)The kid could have been seriously injured by this sculpture. Thank goodness the kid is OK. This is a community center and the piece should have been properly secured, plain and simple. Such a place has an obligation to be safe for children.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Their own insurance might pay for that.
They have a case for negligence against the community center, at the very least.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)I think some of these people are remembering how they behaved and were disciplined when they were significantly older than this child is.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)cvoogt
(949 posts).. those same people seem to have little regard for the fact that the child could have been seriously injured. The community center's at fault for not securing the damn thing, and the insurance company's just doing what insurance companies do.
dsc
(52,163 posts)He wasn't being supervised which is what parents are supposed to do. I never cease to be amazed at the rank entitlement of some parents. If you decide to take a young child somewhere then you should watch him or her. The kid is blameless here but the parents are full of blame.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)If the child had been injured, the parents could have sued the community center for having an unsecured, dangerous object in a place children -- who are welcome at a community center -- could access it.
And that $130K price tag has no basis in reality. The thing had been offered for sale and no one wanted to buy it. The price tag was just a hope of the artist, who is now hoping to cash in.
This isn't the fault of a child, who was attracted to something in a community center that looked like a toy. It wasn't roped off or signed, so the parents wouldn't have known it wasn't secured. Only the artist and the community center knew that.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I just hope none of these people are actually responsible for a public facility which hosts community events where children are expected.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)on a board about facility safety, or they would know better.
appleannie1943
(1,303 posts)I raised 7 kids. The first thing I taught them was stay with me. The second thing was "if it doesn't belong to you, keep your hands off". By the age of 5 those two things had sunk in. I swear, some of today's parents think that Barbie and Ken are babysitting staff in superstores. They leave their small kids in the toy department while the grocery shop.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)to the parents of the bride. So she had her back to him. That happens.
It wasn't an art museum and this piece of "art" wasn't cordoned off or signed in any way. And it wasn't secured in place. The child actually hurt his face but no one seems worried about that.
This unsecured piece of "art" -- that could look like a big doll to a child -- was an attractive nuisance, and the community center would have been liable if the child had seriously injured himself. It's the facility's fault for not securing it properly and not at least roping it off.
brooklynite
(94,606 posts)If it was real art, maybe things would have been different.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)where families attended parties and had other events including children.
It should have been securely installed, and then roped off or cordoned off in some way, and there should have been a sign.
cvoogt
(949 posts)Some kids really can't help themselves, i.e. some kids on the spectrum for example. Not all kids are alike, and not all kids are as easy to raise as some are. I watched the video. I couldn't believe that thing wasn't secured, and am glad the child is OK.
appleannie1943
(1,303 posts)but don't touch. And believe me, all 7 of my kids are different. But the basic thing you teach them is no matter where we are, you stay with me. That is not just so things don't get broken, it is for the child's safety. That includes community centers.
cvoogt
(949 posts)OK, well there are those who have a compulsion to touch every new object they see. As much as parents teach their kids, surely not 100% of children always act as they were taught 100% of the time.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)Small children in generations past always did what they were told, 100% of them, 100% of the time. They certainly never accidentally broke anything that didn't belong to them, ever. It's only in recent years that young children have been observed to accidentally break things.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)all 7 children at the same time!
My poor mother couldn't even manage to watch the 4 of us every single second, but in generations past, 7 was no problem. Wow!
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)or that you kept your eyes on all seven of them at all times.
It's just not humanly possible.
cvoogt
(949 posts)See this related thread.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)Especially with heavy, fragile pieces, because these incidents ARE going to happen.
-Parents, watch your kids carefully, especially in museums or stores dealing in expensive or fragile items.
-Museums and galleries, install heavy or delicate pieces SECURELY with this type of incident in mind. As you can see, it does happen.
All that said, the parents could crowd-fund the expense, at least to take a bite out of it.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)It's a community center. It's not reasonable to expect to find such a flimsy and unstable sculpture put out in the open in a place like that.
Trek4Truth
(515 posts)fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)still_one
(92,242 posts)case at all. It will be between the insurance companies, but if the sculpture was not meant to be touched, and they had no warning signs then shouldn't have proper precautions been taken to secure it whether through a protective fence or barrier?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)still_one
(92,242 posts)Meowmee
(5,164 posts)Is at fault here, the sculpture was not properly secured. They are lucky no one was injured. I doubt the sculpture is really worth or valued at that much. I cant find anything about the artist except for two works at that center. I believe the insurance is responsible for whatever coverage was agreed on.
betsuni
(25,544 posts)TeamPooka
(24,229 posts)ashling
(25,771 posts)without adequately securing (display it in a safe place such as behind plexiglass) and insuring the piece (bonding them for the security of the piece)...
The city is at least partly responsible.
Demovictory9
(32,457 posts)the upper body to the bottom skirt. Weight of the bottom would have probably prevented a tip over.