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Demovictory9

(32,457 posts)
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:07 AM Jun 2018

5 year old's touch sends on-loan sculpture crashing to floor. Kansas City bills parents 132K

Video of the incident:



http://www.newser.com/story/260706/parents-get-132k-claim-after-kid-topples-sculpture.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_top

Wrangling 5-year-olds can be challenging. Failing to do so can apparently be expensive. Or so learned a Kansas couple, who say they may be on the hook for a $132,000 sculpture their young son knocked over. ABC News reports that while at the Tomahawk Ridge Community Center in Overland Park for a May 19 wedding reception, the 5-year-old was caught reaching toward the sculpture by surveillance cameras; "Aphrodite di Kansas City" toppled over and fell. Then the other shoe dropped, in the form of an insurance claim for $132,000—the piece's list price—from the company that insures the city. Sculptor Bill Lyons says he spent roughly 2 years creating the glass piece and that his inspection of it revealed damage to the head and arms. It is "beyond my capabilities and desires to rebuild it," Lyons says.

"You’re responsible for the supervision of a minor child ... your failure to monitor could be considered negligent," the letter from the insurance company read in part. Mom Sarah Goodman counters that the whole scenario was dangerous, and not because of her child. "He didn’t maliciously break that. It fell on him. It was not secure, it was not safe—at all." As for what he was doing, she tells the Kansas City Star "he probably hugged it ... because he’s a loving, sweet nice boy who just graduated from preschool." Overland Park says the piece was on loan and it was obligated to file an insurance claim, and the insurance company was subsequently obligated to contact the family. They say they're hopeful their homeowner's insurance policy will cover the situation, reports KSHB. (This woman says she didn't ruin an $89,000 artwork but rather increased its value.)


-------

The boy can be seen hugging the base of the sculpture named “Aphrodite di Kansas City” by local artist Bill Lyons, the Kansas City Star said. He attempts to hold it up as it begins to lean forward but can’t stop it from falling.

“This glass mosaic torso is laying on the ground and someone is following me around demanding my personal information,” the boy’s mother Sarah Goodman told WGN.

The family soon learned of the piece’s hefty price tag.

“‘Maybe this is like 800 or something.’ No, it’s $132,000!” Goodman told reporters. “I’m sorry, we’re finished here.”

The Goodmans said they received a letter from the City of Overland’s insurance company accusing them of negligence for not monitoring their children, according to WGN.

In response, the mother said, “My children are well-supervised, but all people get distracted.”

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2018/06/15/kansas-boy-topples-aphrodite-sculpture-132k/

442 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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5 year old's touch sends on-loan sculpture crashing to floor. Kansas City bills parents 132K (Original Post) Demovictory9 Jun 2018 OP
You broke it, you bought it Takket Jun 2018 #1
I surely grew up with this. My parents drilled it into my sister & I from the moment we could walk hlthe2b Jun 2018 #8
++1 I grew up with this and passed it on to mine lunasun Jun 2018 #112
I hear you ... it was the same in my family FakeNoose Jun 2018 #239
This is about an insurance company seeking to evade its responsibilities jberryhill Jun 2018 #18
You are right exboyfil Jun 2018 #93
Yes. hunter Jun 2018 #111
Yes! rusty fender Jun 2018 #141
I agree EffieBlack Jun 2018 #151
It wasn't an attractive nuisance. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #420
At older common law it had to lure the kid, but treestar Jun 2018 #426
That's still the law in Kansas based on a quick Lexis search. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #428
Completely agree. Rorey Jun 2018 #160
Agree. If you are in an art museum treestar Jun 2018 #173
This is a community center. Hangingon Jun 2018 #308
Precisely. Yes, the kid should not have been unsupervised, but the sculpture should tblue37 Jun 2018 #264
Did you watch the video? I was alomst with you until I watched it. bitterross Jun 2018 #312
Remember that the video has been edited. Mariana Jun 2018 #319
Her attitude was quite clear with or without editing bitterross Jun 2018 #323
You saw about 45 seconds of "her attitude". Mariana Jun 2018 #327
Legally her attitude does not really matter treestar Jun 2018 #338
It WAS someone else's fault. It was the fault of the people who failed to secure the statue, pnwmom Jun 2018 #407
No, it was bad parenting. How do you secure the glass sculpture. bitterross Jun 2018 #431
Yes, it was. It was a large open space filled with people, and the child was just around the corner. pnwmom Jun 2018 #432
It was not filled with people in the video at all. bitterross Jun 2018 #433
It disgusts me that some people don't think the government facility is responsible pnwmom Jun 2018 #436
A Plexiglass surround that was tall enough would have worked. Lars39 Jun 2018 #437
Because every community center has the funds to do everything bitterross Jun 2018 #439
It's about the ins. co. recovering damages so they don't have to raise your rates. bitterross Jun 2018 #434
The facility failed to properly secure the work at a venue used for parties jberryhill Jun 2018 #435
looks like little glass panels within metal. artist should help fix it Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #56
The artist said it took him 2 years to create DesertRat Jun 2018 #255
He's going to have money taken out of his allowance for a looooooooooong time... backscatter712 Jun 2018 #195
Aren't museums supposed to insure the exhibits? (nt) ehrnst Jun 2018 #2
It was insured. The insurance company is going after the family. comradebillyboy Jun 2018 #5
It was insured. The insurance company is seeking reimbursement The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2018 #7
Yes, so are community centers where this occurred. nt WePurrsevere Jun 2018 #70
Children should be closely supervised mythology Jun 2018 #3
"If your brat just broke something you obviously weren't supervising them well enough." Cha Jun 2018 #107
I'm insulting his idiot parents mythology Jun 2018 #178
That teaching is a process treestar Jun 2018 #184
The child deserves a public commendation jberryhill Jun 2018 #216
The child and his parents deserve to pay for the sculpture. bitterross Jun 2018 #313
You're taking your outrage out on the little boy by Cha Jun 2018 #234
Such horrible comments...I would file for bankruptcy if there was a judgement Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #252
They have a lawyer; they will. nt tblue37 Jun 2018 #301
They should. Lucky the kids wasn't hurt. Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #332
Actually, didn't she say he was a bit scraped up? nt tblue37 Jun 2018 #343
I hope they get plenty...dangerous... Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #344
Yeah, well, according to some of the posters here Mariana Jun 2018 #321
People are so judgemental. Demsrule86 Jun 2018 #330
Bullshit. Adrahil Jun 2018 #126
"Kids are kids, and they sometimes make mistakes." workinclasszero Jun 2018 #133
It should have been behind glass if it was that valuable Rorey Jun 2018 #164
+1 treestar Jun 2018 #176
agreed. The sculpture in the comm center was like leaving fancy tea cups on the edge of counter Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #440
good analogy! treestar Jun 2018 #442
Lots of adults do exactly that sort of thing, PoindexterOglethorpe Jun 2018 #174
Your use of "brat" says everything. nolabear Jun 2018 #144
Yes treestar Jun 2018 #177
Yes, but apparently some DUers never put a foot wrong Mariana Jun 2018 #243
Plus their parents were these absolute martinets treestar Jun 2018 #273
Yes, they were never out of their parents' sight for a single minute. Mariana Jun 2018 #292
It's a community center mcar Jun 2018 #161
An adult could have treestar Jun 2018 #175
The child should receive a public commendation jberryhill Jun 2018 #201
Exactly. And how was a child supposed to know that thing was supposed to be pnwmom Jun 2018 #318
LOL, nice attitude. Sarcasm I assume. nt USALiberal Jun 2018 #210
"Brat" Stinky The Clown Jun 2018 #213
Here, this story will warm your heart jberryhill Jun 2018 #362
Looks like the parents were negligent in supervising the child. comradebillyboy Jun 2018 #4
Maybe they should have secured it better B2G Jun 2018 #6
top heavy glass sculpture on little pedestal in community center...what can go wrong? Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #9
Yup. I think if anyone is sued, it should be the community center for... LAS14 Jun 2018 #13
No kidding. And displaying at a venue B2G Jun 2018 #15
Exactly. Cha Jun 2018 #108
Sculpture of woman with big pointy bullet breasts - and little boys - what could go wrong???? womanofthehills Jun 2018 #149
How do you know it's top-heavy? Looks like it could have a fairly heavy base to me ... mr_lebowski Jun 2018 #181
The pedestal was part of it sarah FAILIN Jun 2018 #271
Right and why so low to the floor??? bluestarone Jun 2018 #10
museum loan department should have helped them secure it. they would have had the expertise Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #17
But nobody could expect a community center used for parties to have children in it jberryhill Jun 2018 #37
If it was that fragile... we would have rejected it. Zoonart Jun 2018 #88
I agree with you. Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #159
Thanks for that perspective. Kansas City has a very wealthy arts community last I knew. yardwork Jun 2018 #266
Thanks for the information. I also was a board member, but not of a community center, pnwmom Jun 2018 #352
Yep. Zoonart Jun 2018 #355
YOU? YOU'RE THE ONE! jberryhill Jun 2018 #370
You found me. Zoonart Jun 2018 #373
Put me on the jury. I would not expect that type of display in a museum. Lochloosa Jun 2018 #19
They're proving that Idiot's don't know how to "Idiot Proof" a sculpture! dubyadiprecession Jun 2018 #29
looking at it... maybe they thought sculpture was all one piece. The top would not separate from Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #47
But what could go wrong in a community center rented for parties? jberryhill Jun 2018 #32
Parties where people drink alcohol. n/t pnwmom Jun 2018 #353
Possibly and I'd be more than willing to agree if this were a exhibit promoted for children. hlthe2b Jun 2018 #33
Not an exhibit mcar Jun 2018 #162
I was taught the same thing kcr Jun 2018 #247
It was not an exhibit, it was a COMMUNITY CENTER promoted for families with children. pnwmom Jun 2018 #409
No kidding! n/t demmiblue Jun 2018 #52
This. Iggo Jun 2018 #99
Yep. This is going to backfire on them big time. MrsCoffee Jun 2018 #142
Really looking forward to some of the self-righteous posts that will show up in this thread. WhiskeyGrinder Jun 2018 #11
Thanks for being among the first. JustABozoOnThisBus Jun 2018 #206
I wonder if "local artist Bill Lyons" has ever sold a piece for anything remotely close to $132K? Gidney N Cloyd Jun 2018 #12
I hope some reporter digs into that bit of the story. nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #16
lol Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #22
I think there ought to be one or more outside appraisers brought in to determine the value... n/t hlthe2b Jun 2018 #41
Fine, as long as they're trying to determine whether the artist or the community center pnwmom Jun 2018 #354
upclose picture of the sculpture at his website Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #42
It sucks. Drahthaardogs Jun 2018 #320
oops (replied to wrong post) deleted hlthe2b Jun 2018 #45
Good point, a piece of art is worth whatever an artist can sell it for. Bluepinky Jun 2018 #153
I have loaned art works to a couple of art museums... GReedDiamond Jun 2018 #182
And this thing had sat there for sale for two months with zero takers. pnwmom Jun 2018 #333
Here's a fix for under 30 bucks Revanchist Jun 2018 #14
My mother used one on me.... but not when I was 5. nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #23
now they look like kid is wearing a backpack Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #34
This was a community center which is rented for wedding receptions jberryhill Jun 2018 #24
You've done it now... I made that suggestion to parents going through chaotic international hlthe2b Jun 2018 #51
Concern ass asked me why one of mine was on a leash. answer - to protect her! They walked away lunasun Jun 2018 #123
At a wedding reception? crazycatlady Jun 2018 #152
Omg! Lotusflower70 Jun 2018 #202
I had one for my son all american girl Jun 2018 #303
At a wedding? John Fante Jun 2018 #228
That wouldn't fix anything. The mother had turned her back on the boy pnwmom Jun 2018 #331
I watched the video. I didn't see any adult supervising the kid. irisblue Jun 2018 #20
The parents were there, just out of the frame. B2G Jun 2018 #28
She says in the OP video she was "around the corner". tammywammy Jun 2018 #60
I held the nephews & nieces hands when we were in public, when they were that young. irisblue Jun 2018 #79
You held their hands through wedding receptions? jberryhill Jun 2018 #80
Actually, B/C I didn't see the under 7yr old kids as much, irisblue Jun 2018 #117
This GoneOffShore Jun 2018 #260
I saw the video this morning. MineralMan Jun 2018 #21
Right, life might happen if we let our children out of our total control. nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #25
it wasn't a museum, it was a community center that rented itself for weddings apparently Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #26
"in places where expensive things can be easily broken" jberryhill Jun 2018 #27
Doesn't matter Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #39
It most certainly DOES matter jberryhill Jun 2018 #49
Stupid analogy Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #57
A community center used for parties is an absurd example jberryhill Jun 2018 #62
They can argue that in court Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #65
It was on loan from a museum jberryhill Jun 2018 #69
Not all museums have guards Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #87
I did not ask you about all museums jberryhill Jun 2018 #92
And had any of them broken the piece they also would be responsible Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #98
The child was injured jberryhill Jun 2018 #105
Parents let the kid run unsupervised Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #110
a cake is not worth 132K though treestar Jun 2018 #186
Neither was that piece of art. It had been on sale for months at that price, with no takers. pnwmom Jun 2018 #404
Haven't you ever heard the term "attractive nuisance"? pnwmom Jun 2018 #335
What were the injuries ? MichMan Jun 2018 #118
Even the cheapest junk IKEA furniture has straps meant to secure it to the wall to prevent tipping. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2018 #138
This message was self-deleted by its author Gidney N Cloyd Jun 2018 #156
The only questionable analogy I saw was you comparing John Fante Jun 2018 #232
You don't get it. This thing, to a child, looks more like a toy -- a large doll -- pnwmom Jun 2018 #334
Last Thanksgiving, a young child of guest used my towel bars to do chin ups, leaving a 18 inch hole hlthe2b Jun 2018 #67
I'm not understanding completely RhodeIslandOne Jun 2018 #187
They paid nothing...offering to pay only $20-$30 that they suggested it would take to repair hlthe2b Jun 2018 #191
Ugh RhodeIslandOne Jun 2018 #236
it should have read "ultimately I bore the cost"... typed too fast, I guess hlthe2b Jun 2018 #237
You don't think there's a difference between a common towel bar fixed to a wall kcr Jun 2018 #246
i think there is a lot of similarity hlthe2b Jun 2018 #256
It's not just about whether parents are responsible for their children kcr Jun 2018 #262
Parents who allow their chldren to climb up and hang on a pedestal unwatched are IRRESPONSIBLE hlthe2b Jun 2018 #265
It's clear you were triggered kcr Jun 2018 #267
Triggered by those who would argue parents don't have to be responsible for hlthe2b Jun 2018 #270
No matter how well raised a child, they will treestar Jun 2018 #275
Of course. I never argued to the contrary. I made restitution for the mistakes made by both hlthe2b Jun 2018 #281
I would expect that, but if the child is as young as 5 treestar Jun 2018 #285
Children as young as five are old enough to learn basic concepts of behavior & consequences. hlthe2b Jun 2018 #287
This child probably did learn something treestar Jun 2018 #289
and the child should not have been left unattended unsupervised. SHARED responsibillity hlthe2b Jun 2018 #291
I don't see him as unsupervised and unattended treestar Jun 2018 #293
I was recently in a car accident where I was not hurt treestar Jun 2018 #274
They are likewise taught responsibillity or IRRESPONSIBILITY by the model set by parents hlthe2b Jun 2018 #286
At what age? treestar Jun 2018 #288
we are talking about parents. hlthe2b Jun 2018 #290
No responsibility is not the same as treestar Jun 2018 #294
It is when you are suggesting the parents take NO responsbility. I said SHARED hlthe2b Jun 2018 #295
It is conceivable treestar Jun 2018 #339
The major mistake was made by the adults, who failed to secure the statue properly, pnwmom Jun 2018 #406
People who put attractive nuisances in community centers should be responsible pnwmom Jun 2018 #317
The parents are supposed to keep their kids in leg irons or something Mariana Jun 2018 #322
Maybe the Hannibal Lechter rig Bettie Jun 2018 #374
Nice try with the misused legal term. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #376
It was an attractive nuisance. It attracted the child, pnwmom Jun 2018 #381
No it wasn't. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #388
There is a lawyer on this page who is also arguing that the facility pnwmom Jun 2018 #389
Well point me to whatever theory he/she is basing that on. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #390
There are actually at least 2 lawyers arguing on the side of the mother. pnwmom Jun 2018 #393
Well that lawyer apparently knows about as much as you do about torts. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #401
You should tell her so. I'll watch. n/t pnwmom Jun 2018 #403
While I see the distinction that he was not a trespasser and the invitee standards would apply treestar Jun 2018 #422
You can't sue for merely having an attractive nuisance. SomethingNew Jun 2018 #425
a lawyer could certainly argue that it is an attractive nuisance treestar Jun 2018 #419
Ignoring the (still) wrong definition of an attractive nuisance, SomethingNew Jun 2018 #421
Wouldn't it infer the owner's negligence treestar Jun 2018 #423
According to the Restatement of Torts, Section 339 treestar Jun 2018 #417
You skipped right over the word "trespass." SomethingNew Jun 2018 #418
Would you install an expensive, fragile item, Cracklin Charlie Jun 2018 #137
the site is responsible for securing items dawg day Jun 2018 #179
How would a child know this is a piece of art and not a climbing toy? It's in a community center, pnwmom Jun 2018 #316
The parents were there. B2G Jun 2018 #31
Sorry Mom nini Jun 2018 #102
"5 year old's touch sends on-loan sculpture crashing to floor. Kansas City bills parents 132K." LenaBaby61 Jun 2018 #135
We had a near drowning incident yesterday here in the Twin Cities MineralMan Jun 2018 #172
Things like that have always happened. Mariana Jun 2018 #244
The kid who accidentally breaks a window with a baseball treestar Jun 2018 #276
Better yet, a problem not securing a heavy object. nt USALiberal Jun 2018 #211
The object was easily accessible in a community center. yardwork Jun 2018 #269
This is the bottom line treestar Jun 2018 #277
That value was just the artist's pipe dream. He'd had it on sale for months and no one pnwmom Jun 2018 #410
It certainly has gained more attention getting broken treestar Jun 2018 #415
You break, you buy Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #30
Was this a store, museum or glass shop? jberryhill Jun 2018 #35
Like this Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #50
You are completely missing the relevant context jberryhill Jun 2018 #58
I read one police account where part of the sculpture did fall toward the kid, pnwmom Jun 2018 #351
Thank you. People are saying all sorts of weird stuff -- this art work was, as you say, Nay Jun 2018 #360
This may be the policy of a store, but it is not marybourg Jun 2018 #46
And if it goes to court I'm sure they will Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #61
When it is on display in the museum, does the museum have guards? jberryhill Jun 2018 #68
I've seen museums with no or minimal guards Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #83
I was asking you about the normal environment for THIS sculpture jberryhill Jun 2018 #84
None of that matters Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #96
Oh, it certainly does matter jberryhill Jun 2018 #100
I don't expect every child perfect- I expect Parents to take responsibility when they are not Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #106
Why not apply that to the Met? treestar Jun 2018 #188
I expect people who run facilities to take responsibility for keeping them safe. pnwmom Jun 2018 #412
Here's where your logic fails: marybourg Jun 2018 #130
Maybe that disagreement is part of the problem Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #148
I'm in my mid seventies, so my idea of marybourg Jun 2018 #171
If the parents can't supervise their child at a wedding, then the child shouldn't be at the wedding. meadowlander Jun 2018 #212
I recall being taken to weddings as a kid treestar Jun 2018 #225
the issue is where the parents negligent treestar Jun 2018 #189
Here, this will make you feel better jberryhill Jun 2018 #368
The child did not cause the damage... GReedDiamond Jun 2018 #185
The insurance company did uphold its responsibility fescuerescue Jun 2018 #386
Interesting. The glass statue was perched on a display column. The vid clearly Ninga Jun 2018 #36
Really people? Children can discrimate between a museum and a community center? Ninga Jun 2018 #44
No, but parents can jberryhill Jun 2018 #53
The "don't touch" lesson starts the minute kiddos start the 50 yard dash. Ninga Jun 2018 #73
had the child been killed or injured by the statue... jberryhill Jun 2018 #74
I don't know the answer to your question. There are plenty of examples of pieces that Ninga Jun 2018 #81
And what is the job of a manager of a public facility used for parties? jberryhill Jun 2018 #89
Reasonable assertion. Maybe the parents will argue that to a 50//50 settlement. Ninga Jun 2018 #101
This wasn't a museum. It was a community center where people were having a party. n/t pnwmom Jun 2018 #394
Fun with Torts, everyone's favorite class! elleng Jun 2018 #139
upclose it looks like all one piece. The bottom is her "skirt" Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #54
The "column" was part of the piece csziggy Jun 2018 #154
Does she really believe a "Do Not Touch" sign would have stopped her kid? sinkingfeeling Jun 2018 #38
Sign should read "Little Boys & Big Boys - Please Do Not Touch Bullet Breasts" womanofthehills Jun 2018 #158
If the artwork had been secured, it wouldn't have topped over. And it should have pnwmom Jun 2018 #405
I'll bet 50 bucks the family sues or is suing JenniferJuniper Jun 2018 #40
I was at an art museum not too long ago... yallerdawg Jun 2018 #43
Pay up, Mommy and Daddy. Aristus Jun 2018 #48
Yep. Because ya know the 5 year old thinks all public spaces are for his whims and fancy! Ninga Jun 2018 #55
Yes, a party is no place for fun jberryhill Jun 2018 #71
Man, hope none of these people have kids or grandkids womanofthehills Jun 2018 #165
use of term "ankle-biter" treestar Jun 2018 #190
Kids are awesome! Devil Child Jun 2018 #198
Many things in a community center CAN be touched. What seems obvious to an adult -- pnwmom Jun 2018 #411
As I noted in a previous post perhaps the parents might Ninga Jun 2018 #413
That might be the case IF the statue had been posted with a warning sign, pnwmom Jun 2018 #414
I hope the kid stays away from church Ninga Jun 2018 #416
A community center with a loud party going on, with alcohol being served, pnwmom Jun 2018 #429
For the most part, I expect parents to keep their eye on their kids. Fla Dem Jun 2018 #59
probably some of the little glass panels imbedded in the metal broke. sculpture not entirely destr Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #63
The artist would rather just have the $132K that no one was willing to pay him pnwmom Jun 2018 #438
I file subrogation cases for a living MaryMagdaline Jun 2018 #64
museum paid 89K Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #66
Parents' insurance company should offer 89k MaryMagdaline Jun 2018 #85
As he's only 5 and below the age of reason JenniferJuniper Jun 2018 #97
Yes and often case will settle because policy limits MaryMagdaline Jun 2018 #104
There are art pieces in our community centre. SECURED. EllieBC Jun 2018 #72
As they should be. Some of the adults here seem to lack common sense. pnwmom Jun 2018 #365
as a child I was taught to keep my hands off things that didn't belong to me. KG Jun 2018 #75
As an adult, were you taught not to place expensive hazardous items insecurely in party venues? jberryhill Jun 2018 #77
as an adult, I learned to laugh at idiotic replies like this one KG Jun 2018 #82
what is idiotic about expecting treestar Jun 2018 #193
Touche' Cha Jun 2018 #120
Some of these responses remind me of the saying "the older I get, the better I was" Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2018 #145
When I broke stuff when I was a kid, my parents paid for it - no questions asked meadowlander Jun 2018 #250
How much stuff did you break as a kid. Just what was the total bill. What are we talking about here? Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2018 #263
Not that much, because my parents were generally supervising us. meadowlander Jun 2018 #299
Your parents might have made themselves treestar Jun 2018 #340
How do you know that is not happening to this kid? treestar Jun 2018 #278
Because Mom is on the news blaming everyone under the sun except herself and her kid. meadowlander Jun 2018 #300
You saw a heavily edited clip of less than one minute. Mariana Jun 2018 #336
I saw the clip here treestar Jun 2018 #341
were you taught this all in one day? treestar Jun 2018 #192
LOL, as an adult I learned to keep my mouth shut to comments like this. nt USALiberal Jun 2018 #279
There are many things in a community center that are perfectly fine to touch. pnwmom Jun 2018 #430
Her child was not supervised. She was distracted WhiteTara Jun 2018 #76
You kept your hands in your pockets or behind your back at wedding receptions? jberryhill Jun 2018 #78
Well, I was watched by lots of people at weddings since they WhiteTara Jun 2018 #136
Lock him up! H2O Man Jun 2018 #103
'Every responsible adult knows that children his age..." nini Jun 2018 #115
Bingo. Lee-Lee Jun 2018 #122
How it was displayed would be a bigger factor if she was close by and stopped him. nini Jun 2018 #129
It amazes me too. No wonder this country is so ***ked up workinclasszero Jun 2018 #143
Kids? Heck, look at the dumb ADULTS in Florida who decided to drive under an unfinished bridge! jberryhill Jun 2018 #371
Then shouldn't blind adults have supervision too? treestar Jun 2018 #196
hahahahahah You're kidding me. nini Jun 2018 #223
I'm responding to a post treestar Jun 2018 #229
If they try to climb statues and pull them down on to themselves, I guess... meadowlander Jun 2018 #235
There's a reasonable expectation treestar Jun 2018 #241
How are you to know that there are expensive art pieces? meadowlander Jun 2018 #245
It would be easy never to even notice it was there treestar Jun 2018 #272
What video did you watch? Moosepoop Jun 2018 #248
The video is sped up at least x3 or x10. You can see it in the way the other kid moves on the right meadowlander Jun 2018 #249
+1 and 50 pounds seems a bit much treestar Jun 2018 #280
Oh, contraire. Pay up parents. WhiteTara Jun 2018 #132
The boy is totally unsupervised left-of-center2012 Jun 2018 #86
The city buys insurance for a reason. The city also has an obligation to reasonably 33taw Jun 2018 #90
Actually, this is the one insurance company seeking to recover from the parent's insurance jberryhill Jun 2018 #116
If the falling statue had hurt the child climbing it, would attractive nuisance law apply? Freethinker65 Jun 2018 #91
No, if the child was killed by the falling statue, the parents should be punished jberryhill Jun 2018 #95
That DU trend is really amazing to me. Iggo Jun 2018 #114
Well if an obnoxious zoo patron forces their way into a tiger enclosure Devil Child Jun 2018 #155
No. On DU, people are okay if the tiger gets out jberryhill Jun 2018 #214
Let me rephrase then, if you deliberately antagonize an 800lb alpha predator Devil Child Jun 2018 #219
So, to be clear jberryhill Jun 2018 #358
Not comparable because there was no enclosure around this "art" pnwmom Jun 2018 #350
I remember the law professor saying kids are liable for their torts treestar Jun 2018 #197
I am in the camp that says the parents did not adequately supervise the child and should pay. Shrike47 Jun 2018 #94
Overland Park is a city over 150,000 folks. They can payl it should have been secured better. aikoaiko Jun 2018 #109
Interesting thread! True Dough Jun 2018 #113
I think that's because there is shared negligence here. JenniferJuniper Jun 2018 #121
It's a cautionary tale on Cha Jun 2018 #124
I love these types of DU threads. treestar Jun 2018 #226
Wedding reception? If the sculpture had fallen over and hurt the child, Ilsa Jun 2018 #119
Hard for me to say here who is really at fault. logosoco Jun 2018 #125
I feel there is shared liability among all parties. Yonnie3 Jun 2018 #127
I feel sorry for the kid workinclasszero Jun 2018 #128
A couple of things Bettie Jun 2018 #131
+1000! mcar Jun 2018 #168
It's obviously a sculpture riverwalker Jun 2018 #134
It wouldn't obviously be a sculpture to a young child. It could be a toy. A large doll. pnwmom Jun 2018 #395
You can bill people for destroying their stuff? Man, we better hope Iraq, Guatemala, El Salvador, ck4829 Jun 2018 #140
I see why the statue may have been attractive to a small child. haele Jun 2018 #146
Agreed - plus this is like a cement climbing structure with big breasts - womanofthehills Jun 2018 #167
Parental failure Devil Child Jun 2018 #147
SMH Skidmore Jun 2018 #150
Du can focus on many topics. Many threads on the border children Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #157
Hah! GulfCoast66 Jun 2018 #166
Oh c'mon..DU parenting wars are always epic nini Jun 2018 #224
As much as people want to debate the appropriateness avebury Jun 2018 #163
What is the point of insurance? Rorey Jun 2018 #169
Yep, that about covers it Bettie Jun 2018 #384
It is a wonder d_r Jun 2018 #170
Museums do not routinely charge patrons for negligent damages marylandblue Jun 2018 #180
This is BS!! benld74 Jun 2018 #183
True, true, true. nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #207
yep Locrian Jun 2018 #258
Reminds me of my mother-in-law Rorey Jun 2018 #392
He didn't "touch" it. He grappled it. Drahthaardogs Jun 2018 #194
Then when he becomes a teen, he can do this WhiteTara Jun 2018 #199
How dare you blame that child! Devil Child Jun 2018 #203
I hope the courts fine them and make WhiteTara Jun 2018 #218
They should sue the community center for negligence... cbdo2007 Jun 2018 #200
Yes the dimwits here treestar Jun 2018 #227
It will be a war between the insurance companies. kwassa Jun 2018 #204
My take on it is that the mother was at fault. LiberalFighter Jun 2018 #205
Distraction comes with a $132,000 price tag, perhaps you will not be beachbum bob Jun 2018 #208
This thing had been for sale with NO TAKERS. The price tag was a WISH by the artist, pnwmom Jun 2018 #314
Imagine this. Two adults are talking. One has her back... LAS14 Jun 2018 #209
The kid didn't jump back and accidentally knock over the sculpture. meadowlander Jun 2018 #220
My point is that the sculpture was improperly displayed. nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #221
Negligence causes accidents treestar Jun 2018 #230
This is common sense. liberalmuse Jun 2018 #215
This is ENTIRELY on the Community Center Stinky The Clown Jun 2018 #217
The parents should hire an attorney mokawanis Jun 2018 #222
OK, I'll say it... MountCleaners Jun 2018 #231
California law limits a parent's liability to $25,000 LastLiberal in PalmSprings Jun 2018 #233
That's good information FakeNoose Jun 2018 #240
If the kid had torched that thing with an Elon Musk flamethrower, I'd still be on his side kcr Jun 2018 #238
Ahem, you mean, NOT-A-Flamethrower Nonhlanhla Jun 2018 #254
This message was self-deleted by its author Oneironaut Jun 2018 #242
This message was self-deleted by its author MFM008 Jun 2018 #251
What my parents would have done MFM008 Jun 2018 #253
I know exactly what you are talking about workinclasszero Jun 2018 #259
Which respondents are parents, and which not? LAS14 Jun 2018 #257
I have to wonder how many of the people railing on the parents Mariana Jun 2018 #268
A few I think were disciplined as kids treestar Jun 2018 #282
Parent here. My take is, my wife and I carefully scrutinize where we take our youngest who is 3 stevenleser Jun 2018 #325
Which respondents are insurance company employees jberryhill Jun 2018 #372
I can see there being comparative negligence but the parents are mostly at fault here dsc Jun 2018 #261
I wouldn't call him unsupervised treestar Jun 2018 #284
she was in neither ear or eye shot dsc Jun 2018 #296
Do you let them go to the bathroom occasionally unsupervised??? nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #297
He would have been in either pre school or kindergarden given his age dsc Jun 2018 #302
Please see my reply 306. LAS14 Jun 2018 #307
Not kindergarteners. meadowlander Jun 2018 #304
My second day in kindergarten I walked the three blocks... LAS14 Jun 2018 #306
It might be reasonable for teacher of a class treestar Jun 2018 #342
How do you know what she could hear, around the corner, in a noisy crowd of partygoers? pnwmom Jun 2018 #364
because neither parent ran into the room when the sculpture fell dsc Jun 2018 #367
The mother briefly turned her back on the child while she said goodbye to the family pnwmom Jun 2018 #356
from the video dsc Jun 2018 #357
Well stated. I can't believe the unrealistic views of what life is like in this thread. nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #361
I would suggest this GreatCaesarsGhost Jun 2018 #283
What ever happened to "Touch with your eyes, but not with your hands"? Emilio Mola Jun 2018 #298
And your kids have never taken a little initiative and done something contrary to rules???? nt LAS14 Jun 2018 #309
This was a community center. How would the child know this was ART, not a TOY? pnwmom Jun 2018 #324
I feel for everyone involved BannonsLiver Jun 2018 #305
Point of order: That was more than a "touch." Baitball Blogger Jun 2018 #310
Doesn't matter. A kid could deliberately jump in a neighbor's pool pnwmom Jun 2018 #348
I am disturbed by the cild-blaming on this thread. cvoogt Jun 2018 #311
Me, too. I hope the parents find a good lawyer who puts this case away quickly. pnwmom Jun 2018 #326
Yup cvoogt Jun 2018 #345
You know, most people don't really remember being five years old. Mariana Jun 2018 #337
And some of them were probably abused and have internalized it. n/t pnwmom Jun 2018 #346
That may be part of it cvoogt Jun 2018 #347
we are not blaming the child we are blaming his parents dsc Jun 2018 #369
This thing was an "attractive nuisance," a hazard in a COMMUNITY CENTER, not an art museum. pnwmom Jun 2018 #315
If the child had been crushed to death, DUers would laugh and award a "Darwin" jberryhill Jun 2018 #359
I doubt that they could have been part of discussions pnwmom Jun 2018 #363
If it does not belong to you DON'T TOUCH IT. appleannie1943 Jun 2018 #328
This was a community center during a wedding reception and the mother was saying goodbye pnwmom Jun 2018 #329
Well, I guess it doesn't count if it's only "art"... brooklynite Jun 2018 #396
Whether it was art or not, it was an unsecured hazard located in a place pnwmom Jun 2018 #397
Kids are naturally curious. cvoogt Jun 2018 #349
One of mine is special needs. He is 53 with the mental age of 9. Even he learned you can look but appleannie1943 Jun 2018 #383
I know some cvoogt Jun 2018 #387
Apparently this is a very new phenomenon. Mariana Jun 2018 #391
I know! And in generations past, mothers of 7 children could keep their eyes on pnwmom Jun 2018 #408
I refuse to believe that none of your kids ever touched anything they shouldn't have touched pnwmom Jun 2018 #400
In 2014 a 2-year-old was killed by a statue in SF cvoogt Jun 2018 #366
That story is just horrifying. n/t pnwmom Jun 2018 #398
Offsetting penalties: parents should be more watchful, but museums should expect these incidents. VOX Jun 2018 #375
This place is neither a museum or a gallery. Mariana Jun 2018 #385
Typical Insurance Company dirt bag move. nt Trek4Truth Jun 2018 #377
It's not like the kid voted for Trump. Fuck people's bullshit. fleabiscuit Jun 2018 #378
Were there any warning signs not to touch the sculpture? I don't think this is an open and shut still_one Jun 2018 #379
No. No sign, and it wasn't secured in place, and it wasn't roped or cordoned off. n/t pnwmom Jun 2018 #399
The outcome of this will be interesting. still_one Jun 2018 #402
The center Meowmee Jun 2018 #380
I don't get art. betsuni Jun 2018 #382
Headline should be about the insurance company trying to avoid it's responsibility TeamPooka Jun 2018 #424
It was neglegent of the City to put that artwork on display in a community center ashling Jun 2018 #427
and a hug from a kid separates the top from the bottom? artist should have cemented Demovictory9 Jun 2018 #441

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
8. I surely grew up with this. My parents drilled it into my sister & I from the moment we could walk
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:15 AM
Jun 2018

Sorry, Mom.. Your child is undoubtedly loving and lovely and you undoubtedly did get distracted. But, you are responsible for your children, including the damage they do.

FakeNoose

(32,649 posts)
239. I hear you ... it was the same in my family
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:05 PM
Jun 2018

But this is a different generation, and nobody wants to take responsibility for anything. I keep asking myself, why do these people even have kids? Some of these mothers are the same ones who get their kids' teachers fired because their little snowflakes aren't getting straight A's in school.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
18. This is about an insurance company seeking to evade its responsibilities
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:20 AM
Jun 2018

There is much more than "you broke, it you bought it" going on here.

This is a multi-function community center, not an art museum or a glass shop.

A community center is reasonably likely to be used by various groups of the community, such as this wedding reception. The community includes children, and it is reasonably foreseeable that children will be present. It is also reasonably foreseeable that in any place where there will be numbers of parents and children, that children will get away.

So, in a community center used for a range of community activities, they mounted a $132,000 sculpture in such a negligent way that it could be toppled by a small child.

The city pays this insurance company to cover things that may happen like this. If anything, the insurance company should be looking into why this city chose to put an expensive glass statue on an obviously inadequate mount in a community center.




exboyfil

(17,863 posts)
93. You are right
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:01 AM
Jun 2018

They are fortunate that the thing didn't hurt anyone. This kind of like an Attractive Nuisance.

hunter

(38,318 posts)
111. Yes.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:15 AM
Jun 2018

Little kids run around at wedding receptions. It's what they do. I've never been to a wedding reception where children were invited that this wasn't so. It's been true of community celebrations throughout human history

In any case, the sculpture was not anchored properly if a little kid could knock it over.

The sculpture could have fallen just as easily if some adult, tipsy on their third glass of champagne, had nudged it.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
151. I agree
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:33 PM
Jun 2018

Not only was it an "attractive nuisance," if it was so unsteady that a 5-year-old, who was invited to be there, could topple it over, the community center and artist bear the responsibility.

It also doesn't look like there were any signs, warnings or barriers to keep children or anyone else from touching it.

This is bs ...

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
420. It wasn't an attractive nuisance.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:03 PM
Jun 2018

The attractive nuisance doctrine applies to trespassing children, not invitees or licensees. Furthermore, it must be so situated as to attract the trespassing children onto the property. It can't just be something that attracts them once they are already there. It must also actually be a nuisance. A sculpture inside a building does not meet this definition in any way. But even if it did, it wouldn't apply here because the child was not a trespasser.

Attractive nuisances also don't do anything to limit or shift liability for damaged property. I'm not aware of any legal doctrine which says that if property is easily damaged, you don't have to pay for breaking it.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
426. At older common law it had to lure the kid, but
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:11 PM
Jun 2018
Under the old common law, the plaintiff (either the child, or a parent suing on the child's behalf) had to show that it was the hazardous condition itself which lured the child onto the landowner's property. However, most jurisdictions have statutorily altered this condition, and now require only that the injury was foreseeable by the landowner.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine

It is not an argument that the property is easily damaged making one not liable for breaking it, but that is a factor in arguing that the center was negligent for leaving an easily breakable, valuable work of art unprotected in an area where it knew there would be wedding guests, which includes children.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
173. Agree. If you are in an art museum
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:20 PM
Jun 2018

Don’t take a 5-year-old or keep him right by you. But at a wedding? Such a venue should expect kids.

Hangingon

(3,071 posts)
308. This is a community center.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:06 PM
Jun 2018

The gallery is off the entrance lobby. They have events there. They have a great gym and basketball courts. I doubt if any one is qualified to run an art exhibit.

tblue37

(65,409 posts)
264. Precisely. Yes, the kid should not have been unsupervised, but the sculpture should
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:36 AM
Jun 2018

not have been so carelessly exposed to risk.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
312. Did you watch the video? I was alomst with you until I watched it.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:22 PM
Jun 2018

The mother shows absolutely no remorse for her kid's actions. She blames everyone except her kid for touching something he shouldn't have. It is clear from the video the wedding reception was not going on in the area of the sculpture. The kid should not have been left unattended and allowed to get into the area in which the sculpture was displayed. That area looks like it is for art displays in the video.

I would have almost agreed with you until I saw the mother on TV. Her inability to even express regret the incident happened infuriated me. I hope the insurance company prevails in this. People need to take responsibility for their kids.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
319. Remember that the video has been edited.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:45 PM
Jun 2018

You don't know what else she may have said during the interview, you only know what was cut out and put into the clip.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
323. Her attitude was quite clear with or without editing
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:57 PM
Jun 2018

Her thoughts on the matter were quite clear in the video. It is someone else's fault. There was ample time in her statements that were aired to work in regret. I suspect she has none.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
327. You saw about 45 seconds of "her attitude".
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:09 PM
Jun 2018

The interview was probably 10 or 15 minutes. You don't know what questions she was asked. You don't know the context of the particular statements that were aired. How could she "work in regret" when she had no control over exactly which words were included in the clip? Damn, I'm not saying she's in the right, but don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
338. Legally her attitude does not really matter
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:51 PM
Jun 2018

The community center could be said to be at fault too, in this case. In negligence law, you are responsible for the foreseeable risks of your negligence. While something getting knocked over would qualify, it would be foreseeable that it would be a vase or the like, but not something so expensive that reasonable people would have protected it.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
407. It WAS someone else's fault. It was the fault of the people who failed to secure the statue,
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:18 PM
Jun 2018

failed to rope or cordon it off, and failed to place a warning sign.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
431. No, it was bad parenting. How do you secure the glass sculpture.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 08:28 PM
Jun 2018

The wedding reception wasn't being held in the space where the art was. The kid was allowed to get away from the parents.

You cannot expect other people to always look out for your kids. It is perfectly reasonable to expect that you can put something on display and not have it climbed upon.

I hope the insurance company prevails because it is certainly negligence on the part of the parents. The kid probably can't read and there even if it were cordned off the kid would probably have gone under the ropes anyway. They clearly have not been taught that the whole world is NOT their personal playground.

My parents taught us to not touch things from before that age and we obeyed.

How do you know the center didn't secure it in some way. It's a glass sculpture. Maybe there was no way to do more than they did and not compromise or damage it. Are they supposed to not display art because they can't count on parents keeping their children under control? Are they supposed to deprive everyone else because one set of parents can't make their kid behave?

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
432. Yes, it was. It was a large open space filled with people, and the child was just around the corner.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 08:34 PM
Jun 2018

I have to laugh when I hear all the people who are CERTAIN that they were never naughty children who touched something they shouldn't have.

And all the parents who never once took their eyes off their children.

Yeah, right.



But the fact is that that facility had a legal responsibility for the safety of all its patrons, including the children who they knew would be there. They were very lucky that child wasn't seriously hurt. The burden was on the facility to make sure that statue was secure, and to put a warning sign up and to cordon it off. They failed miserably.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
433. It was not filled with people in the video at all.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 08:36 PM
Jun 2018

It disgusts me that no one feels the parents are responsible for their children's actions.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
436. It disgusts me that some people don't think the government facility is responsible
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 09:52 PM
Jun 2018

for the safety of those who pay to use it, and their guests.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
439. Because every community center has the funds to do everything
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 11:35 PM
Jun 2018

I'm amazed that no one sees there is the practicalities here.

Not to mention. Why the heck does the community center have to spend tons of money because people can't keep their kids from climbing on things? Why can't people just do the right thing and either monitor their children or just not take them out in public if they can't be trusted to behave.

Why is it everyone else's responsibility to take care of other people's children?

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
434. It's about the ins. co. recovering damages so they don't have to raise your rates.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 08:38 PM
Jun 2018

You know who pays for that claim? You do and I do through the rates we pay on insurance.

The less the insurance company has to pay on the claim the less it affects your rate and mine. When parents do not control their children in public, they should be responsible for the damage.

The money to pay the claim doesn't come from nowhere.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
435. The facility failed to properly secure the work at a venue used for parties
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 08:52 PM
Jun 2018

They are lucky the child was not seriously injured.

DesertRat

(27,995 posts)
255. The artist said it took him 2 years to create
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:52 AM
Jun 2018

And after inspecting it, he has no desire to try to repair it.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,748 posts)
7. It was insured. The insurance company is seeking reimbursement
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:14 AM
Jun 2018

from the people who caused the loss. It’s called subrogation, they do it all the time.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
3. Children should be closely supervised
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:12 AM
Jun 2018

If your brat just broke something you obviously weren't supervising them well enough.

Cha

(297,323 posts)
107. "If your brat just broke something you obviously weren't supervising them well enough."
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:13 AM
Jun 2018

Way to insult the little 5 year old boy.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
178. I'm insulting his idiot parents
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:31 PM
Jun 2018

When I was a kid I knew to keep my hands to myself because my parents (more accurately mom) taught me how to behave. These parents obviously didn't.

Letting children damage other people's property isn't okay no matter how much you and others may want to coddle those who have children they aren't prepared to be responsible for.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
216. The child deserves a public commendation
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:08 PM
Jun 2018

This child found and neutralized a menace to public safety before it had the chance to seriously injure or kill someone.
 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
313. The child and his parents deserve to pay for the sculpture.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:26 PM
Jun 2018

The whole world should not have to be child-proofed to account for bad parenting. By your logic everything must be safe for a 5 year old. That is a unreasonable expectation.

Demsrule86

(68,595 posts)
252. Such horrible comments...I would file for bankruptcy if there was a judgement
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:23 AM
Jun 2018

if I were the parents. This is why they have insurance. Also, if a little five year old can knock it to the ground it was not properly secured. The flip side is the kid could have been hurt. My then five year old jumped on a golf cart that one of the employees had left running in a dealership and smashed it in to a cadillac escalade. Thank God she wasn't hurt. We were looking for a SUV and being driven around in the cart. She took off at a run with me right behind her and jumped into the cart got it in gear. That car was fully loaded so very expensive, and was it damaged. Accidents happen. I was certainly not presented with a bill...the dealership employees were very apologetic. I was mortified however. The parents should countersue. The exhibit was not properly secured, the child could have been injured and unless they banned kids, they had a responsibility to create a safe environment for them.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
321. Yeah, well, according to some of the posters here
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:52 PM
Jun 2018

you're a shitty parent because that happened. You should have had your kid in a straitjacket. It's your fault.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
126. Bullshit.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:30 AM
Jun 2018

Kids are kids, and they sometimes make mistakes. I took my daughter to an art museum when she was 7. She loves art. She wanted to take a picture of a cool collage and got out her camera (it was permitted). She couldn't get all the collage in the picture and started backing up. I saw the danger right away, but she bumped into a pedestal with a vase on it. She wasn't being a brat, and I had my eye on her the whole goddammed time. Fortunately, I managed to get there in time to prevent a fall. Disaster averted.

She was properly behaving her self. But she was SEVEN and didn't think of what was behind her.

Museums/galleries need to take proper precautions for breakables. Maybe don't put something that fragile where people can walk up to it and touch it? Maybe mount it in a more secure way?

There is no way the insurance company collects on this one, I think.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
133. "Kids are kids, and they sometimes make mistakes."
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:44 AM
Jun 2018

Of course!

That's why the parents need to be supervising their kids out in public, which these parents obviously were not doing!

It's nothing on the 5 year old, its all on the bad parents!

Rorey

(8,445 posts)
164. It should have been behind glass if it was that valuable
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:52 PM
Jun 2018

I do believe in parental supervision, but when you're the caretaker of such a valuable piece, you should take extra precautions. Having such a fragile and dangerous piece out in the open like that is just plain negligent. I'm so glad the little boy is okay.

PoindexterOglethorpe

(25,862 posts)
174. Lots of adults do exactly that sort of thing,
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:22 PM
Jun 2018

backing up without paying attention to what's behind them. Heck, we all do that occasionally.

The parents should counter-sue that the sculpture was not secured and presented a danger to their child.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
177. Yes
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:26 PM
Jun 2018

Such dislike of kids is strange. We all remember being one. It is a condition of life everyone can empathize with !

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
243. Yes, but apparently some DUers never put a foot wrong
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:30 PM
Jun 2018

during their childhoods, not even once. They and their parents were perfect.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
273. Plus their parents were these absolute martinets
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:02 AM
Jun 2018

at their side every second. Could hardly have been parents of baby boomers, who had larger families.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
292. Yes, they were never out of their parents' sight for a single minute.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:30 AM
Jun 2018

And yet, on other threads on DU, we read about how kids had all this unsupervised free time back in the day, and got into all kinds of trouble, and how sad it is that kids today don't get to do that.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
175. An adult could have
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:23 PM
Jun 2018

Knocked it over by accident too. It was that valuable and the center should have known anyone could accidentally break it

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
201. The child should receive a public commendation
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:36 PM
Jun 2018

For spotting and neutralizing this hazard to public safety.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
318. Exactly. And how was a child supposed to know that thing was supposed to be
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:40 PM
Jun 2018

a valuable piece of art and not a toy?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
362. Here, this story will warm your heart
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:56 PM
Jun 2018

Sometimes the statue wins:

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-05-26/news/1993146029_1_small-pillars-statue-creek

A 4-year-old Sykesville boy was killed yesterday afternoon at an Ellicott City spiritual retreat after he fell from a small religious statue, which toppled onto his head.
 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
6. Maybe they should have secured it better
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:13 AM
Jun 2018

Rather than displaying it in a high traffic area without any protection.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
15. No kidding. And displaying at a venue
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:19 AM
Jun 2018

that hosts dozens of wedding receptions each year. Where people drink.

They should just be happy the boy wasn't injured or they'd be facing a huge lawsuit.

womanofthehills

(8,721 posts)
149. Sculpture of woman with big pointy bullet breasts - and little boys - what could go wrong????
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:29 PM
Jun 2018

Sounds like many people on DU have never been around 5 yr old boys!! You can be two feet behind them and stuff happens.

 

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)
181. How do you know it's top-heavy? Looks like it could have a fairly heavy base to me ...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:47 PM
Jun 2018

All that thick mosaic is fairly heavy + requires a lot of epoxy which has weight. A lot depends on how thick the mosaic is, how thick the glass is, how thick that metal frame is, and what's under all that mosaic. Can't know just by looking at this statue.

I agree the pedestal looks a bit inadequate and the wisdom of having a supposedly near $100K in value statue in an area used for parties without it being somehow enclosed seems questionable at best.

And I suppose a kid that young knocking it over provides fairly decent evidence it wasn't bottom-heavy ENOUGH unless he totally climbed up onto the top 1/2

sarah FAILIN

(2,857 posts)
271. The pedestal was part of it
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:54 AM
Jun 2018

It looks like a skirt, but it wasn't connected together and there wasn't anything roping it off from the public.

bluestarone

(16,976 posts)
10. Right and why so low to the floor???
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:18 AM
Jun 2018

Not very smart to have it low enough for a child to reach? What the hell were they thinking?

Zoonart

(11,871 posts)
88. If it was that fragile... we would have rejected it.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:58 AM
Jun 2018

I am chairman of the board of a local arts council in NYS. We vet the acceptance of all public sculptures that we place on loan at a very high level. If the sculpture is not secured to the base properly and will not withstand the rigors of public display... which always involves touching,
the sculpture would have been rejected until the sculptor had made changes.

I feel badly for this family. I think the agency that approved the installation should bear the cost of the work through THEIR insurance.
That's ow it would work for us, the case is that due diligence had not been done in installation.

I just rejected a sculpture on Thursday, because it was too close to the ground and looked to be fragile in that the armature was constructed with chicken wire, which is easily bent.

Just MHO plus a little experience.

yardwork

(61,657 posts)
266. Thanks for that perspective. Kansas City has a very wealthy arts community last I knew.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:44 AM
Jun 2018

I'm surprised that this happened at a community center in Kansas City. Somebody didn't do a good job vetting the display of this piece.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
352. Thanks for the information. I also was a board member, but not of a community center,
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:47 PM
Jun 2018

and part of our job was worrying about liability. We had an obligation to keep people safe.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
370. YOU? YOU'RE THE ONE!
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:40 PM
Jun 2018

I will never forgive you for rejecting my piece.

I spent five years on a two story 30 ton steel work called “Homage To Jenga” which I specifically designed for the competition for an installation in the atrium of the new treatment center for blind hyperactive children - and you turned it down!

I will never forgive you.

Zoonart

(11,871 posts)
373. You found me.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:09 PM
Jun 2018

I knew it would come to this. Now I will have to burn my identity and start over.
See you in the game.

Lochloosa

(16,066 posts)
19. Put me on the jury. I would not expect that type of display in a museum.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:20 AM
Jun 2018

Much less a community center.

The negligence lies with displayer, not the child.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
32. But what could go wrong in a community center rented for parties?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:24 AM
Jun 2018

Who could possibly believe that putting a top-heavy glass sculpture in a multi-function community center used for parties and presumably other community events, was not a good idea?

Notice the bill is from the insurance company.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
33. Possibly and I'd be more than willing to agree if this were a exhibit promoted for children.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:24 AM
Jun 2018

It was not, so I think the mother does bear at least some responsibility. It would be nice if the facility/insurer split the expenses with the mother, but I do think she was negligent and a court would likely decide the same.

It is hard to be a mother and keep up with a healthy, rambunctious toddler. But I can remember my parents drilling in the "no touch!" "no running!" "look ONLY" mantras from the moment I became aware of much of anything. Even at the age of this young child, I knew better, as did my sister.

I do feel for the mother, just as I would any parent (or even pet owner) who must assume responsibility for unintentional actions that result in damage or destruction. One of those unfortunate things that can happen and which requires one hell of a lot of vigilance to avoid.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
247. I was taught the same thing
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 12:29 AM
Jun 2018

But I was also taught to take responsibility for my things and how to take care of them. That if I was careless and something happened to them it was at least partially my fault. To not blame others for my carelessness.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
409. It was not an exhibit, it was a COMMUNITY CENTER promoted for families with children.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:23 PM
Jun 2018

And this was a large party involving alcohol. What could go wrong?

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
354. Fine, as long as they're trying to determine whether the artist or the community center
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:49 PM
Jun 2018

is responsible. They're the ones who built and/or installed it.

Bluepinky

(2,275 posts)
153. Good point, a piece of art is worth whatever an artist can sell it for.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:34 PM
Jun 2018

I could create a sculpture of a dog turd out of metal and glass and say it’s worth 10,000. Who’s to say it’s not worth that? No way would anyone pay $132,000 for the sculpture the child broke. In addition, the community center should not have had this type of art unsecured in the facility. Seems like this was an accident waiting to happen.

GReedDiamond

(5,313 posts)
182. I have loaned art works to a couple of art museums...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:12 PM
Jun 2018

...when I filled out the paperwork for the insurance, I conferred with the artist on the value of the pieces, who suggested that I slightly inflate the prices, so for example, if the piece was worth $5000, list it at $6000.

This particular artist's work is still rising in value, so even at $6K, in another 5-10 years, the piece could be worth 2-3 times what the current value is.

The sculpture valued at $132,000 in this situation seems highly inflated, not to mention that, subjectively speaking, it is quite unappealing to look at.

As has already been pointed out, the piece was not secured to the pedestal at all, nor roped off to keep people, not to mention small children, from coming into contact with it.

The community center is responsible, not the family of the child, and insurance company is full of shit.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
333. And this thing had sat there for sale for two months with zero takers.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:24 PM
Jun 2018

He's just trying to make money selling a broken thing that he couldn't sell when it was whole.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
24. This was a community center which is rented for wedding receptions
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:21 AM
Jun 2018

Because, yeah, in a facility which is used for parties, people keep kids on leashes all of the time.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
51. You've done it now... I made that suggestion to parents going through chaotic international
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:34 AM
Jun 2018

airports with two male energetic toddlers once. I know I would not have been able to keep up with them and couldn't imagine doing so in some of the crazed settings I'd been in traveling overseas.

You'd have thought I had suggested banishing their kids to the woods to be raised by wolves. LOL whew

lunasun

(21,646 posts)
123. Concern ass asked me why one of mine was on a leash. answer - to protect her! They walked away
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:25 AM
Jun 2018

Not every child needs it . Some are over energetic at an age where they can not understand . Of course by 5 , the boys age, I would think most developing should understand
A teacher friend of mine told me a lot of losers wait until the school can teach them hands off and sit down behave

all american girl

(1,788 posts)
303. I had one for my son
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 02:56 PM
Jun 2018

the boy was the master at getting away. He could get out of his stroller and off he'd run, or hide, or go touching expensive stuff. And to top it all off, he hated holding hands. Drove me crazy. So I got one. He absolutely loved it. He could walk on his own and I didn't have to worry about him getting hurt, lost, or breaking things. Not sure why people think they are bad. The kid is given some freedom and is safe. He was protected.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
331. That wouldn't fix anything. The mother had turned her back on the boy
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:22 PM
Jun 2018

while she was saying goodbye to the family of the bride.

irisblue

(32,982 posts)
20. I watched the video. I didn't see any adult supervising the kid.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:20 AM
Jun 2018

Watch your kid(s) more closely Ms & Mr Goodman

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
28. The parents were there, just out of the frame.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:23 AM
Jun 2018

"But Goodman argued the sculpture should have been better secured. She also disputes the city’s claim that her child wasn’t being supervised. Goodman said she and her husband were out of frame of the surveillance camera, saying their goodbyes during a wedding reception that they were leaving, when the incident occurred."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-face-132000-claim-kid-knocks-sculpture/story?id=55927437

irisblue

(32,982 posts)
79. I held the nephews & nieces hands when we were in public, when they were that young.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:52 AM
Jun 2018

My mom did the same. My siblings held their kids hands.
I'm not unaware of a tired, fidegty kid making a parent annoyed, but a child that young does not have the ability to imagine consequences from their actions.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
80. You held their hands through wedding receptions?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:54 AM
Jun 2018

Really?

At a wedding reception, nobody in your family could dance or socialize without holding someone's hand?

irisblue

(32,982 posts)
117. Actually, B/C I didn't see the under 7yr old kids as much,
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:18 AM
Jun 2018

I usually babysat the smaller fry at their parents house or at the hotel room; popcorn, M&Ms, pizza, red pop, VHS tapes, then DVDs, staying up till midnight. I was the 'fun aunt'.
How do you dance at a wedding w/o holding hands? Or having your partner, of any age, in front or next to you?
But thay isn't what you.meant is it? Enjoy your weekend. Toodles.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
21. I saw the video this morning.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:20 AM
Jun 2018

The boy climbed up on the pedestal supporting the sculpture and pulled it off. It fell on the floor and broke. I could see no adults anywhere near the children (there were two). Direct supervision by a nearby adult is always needed with children that age in a place like that. At all times.

We can't expect children not to behave like children, but we can expect their parents to be nearby in places where expensive things can be easily broken. They'll end up having to pay, I'm sure.

This is one of the potential problems with free-ranging children.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
27. "in places where expensive things can be easily broken"
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:22 AM
Jun 2018

Should a community center used for a range of activities, and rented for wedding receptions, be a "place where expensive things can be easily broken"?

Would you have put this statue in an elementary school?

This is not a museum - it is a multi-function community center in a community obviously including children.
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
39. Doesn't matter
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:29 AM
Jun 2018

An expensive item in a place you don’t think it belongs doesn’t absolve a party who damages it from responsibility if the damages are a result of obviously irresponsible actions.

Climbing on a piece of art on a pedestal on display is inappropriate behavior pretty much everywhere, unless it’s a stature placed for that purpose in a playground.

Would I have put it there? No. But that doesn’t mean that the party to damaged it through negligence still isn’t 100% to blame.

It’s like parking an expensive luxury car in a high crime area. Is it smart? No. Does that mean a person who steals it and destroys it joyriding is any less responsible for the damages they caused? Nope.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
49. It most certainly DOES matter
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:34 AM
Jun 2018

Because you are completely ignoring what kind of place this is:

"It’s like parking an expensive luxury car in a high crime area. Is it smart? No."

It's not at all like that.

So you are saying that the town could put this sculpture in the middle of an intersection, and expect people to drive around it, since that's where the town decided to put it?

Of course not.

SOMEONE decided to rent this facility out for wedding receptions. Wedding receptions are attended by all ages, and there is drinking.

This is about the insurance company realizing that the town made a very stupid decision which they won't cover.
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
57. Stupid analogy
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:38 AM
Jun 2018

In an intersection is an absurd example.

This was not an intersection. It was a public place, sure. But not a playground or a an intersection. It’s a public place where people are expected to behave.

And climbing onto public art displays is clearly not expected or appropriate behavior.

The insurance company did cover it. And like all insurance companies they are not seeking to recover the costs from the party at fault for the damage. That’s how insurance works. They don’t just pay out for a third parties negligence and then close it, they go after the negligent party.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
62. A community center used for parties is an absurd example
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:40 AM
Jun 2018

That kid could have been killed by this hazard they put in an entirely inappropriate place with inadequate safety precautions.

But if the kid was killed, you'd be billing the parents for it.

The insurance company is billing twice here. This was a rented public facility. They are billing people who were paying the premium.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
65. They can argue that in court
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:42 AM
Jun 2018

It will be interesting to see how it ends.

The video showing the kid clearly was not being supervised by any adults at that point doesn’t help their case.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
69. It was on loan from a museum
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:44 AM
Jun 2018

Tell me, does this museum from which it was on loan have guards?

Can you tell me what is the function of guards in an art museum?

Does this museum from which it was on loan host parties?

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
87. Not all museums have guards
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:57 AM
Jun 2018

And yes, lots of them do host weddings.

And even when they do, it’s not the job of a guard or museum to babysit the kids when the parents are negligent.

And the absence of guards doesn’t mean that a parent can let kids run wild and not be responsible for what their kids do.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
92. I did not ask you about all museums
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:01 AM
Jun 2018

DID the museum from which it was on loan have this sculpture placed in a lobby with no barrier, and did this museum have a guard.

This kid was not "running wild".

This was a wedding reception. I would bet that people were drinking and dancing as well. Is that also "running wild"?
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
98. And had any of them broken the piece they also would be responsible
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:03 AM
Jun 2018

Wouldn’t matter if there was one guard there, 10 guards, or no guards.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
105. The child was injured
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:08 AM
Jun 2018

And nobody is responsible for placing a glass sculpture in a public facility rented for parties which injures a child.

Got it.

Next up - Zoos with "walk with the tigers" experiences...
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
110. Parents let the kid run unsupervised
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:14 AM
Jun 2018

When kids get injured like that it’s the Parents fault.

I get that some people believe that it’s never a Parents failt no matter thier kids do, and everyone else needs to do everything to keep their kids safe so the parents don’t have to it and don’t have to take any responsibility.

What’s more reasonable- to expect parents to actually take responsibility for their kids, to watch them and monitor them. Or to expect every object in every public place- be it art, lamps, tables, shelves, or anything else to be all mounted and constructed in a way so kids can run wild and use them all as jungle gyms when the kids are poorly patented?

If the kid had run up and pulled the wedding cake off the table would you be blaming the couple getting married for not properly guarding the cake and leaving such an attractive piece where a kid could run to it, or would you blame the parents for not supervising the kid? Same principle, just different object.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
186. a cake is not worth 132K though
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:23 PM
Jun 2018

at least, not an average wedding cake. You don't expect it to be protected by a rope or glass. If knocked over, it is still edible to a degree. It is not meant to last more than a day.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
404. Neither was that piece of art. It had been on sale for months at that price, with no takers.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:12 PM
Jun 2018

Any artist can ask whatever he wants for a piece of art, but it is only worth what someone will pay for it.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
335. Haven't you ever heard the term "attractive nuisance"?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:30 PM
Jun 2018

When someone gives children access to something that they might be attracted to, and is potentially dangerous, then THEY are responsible if the child gets injured.

This piece of "art" could look like a big, shiny doll to a child. It should have been secured in place and roped off.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
138. Even the cheapest junk IKEA furniture has straps meant to secure it to the wall to prevent tipping.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:52 AM
Jun 2018

The community center was negligent in not securing a top heavy fragile piece that could have killed the kid.

And I’ve been to weddings in museums and other non traditional venues. Kids weren’t allowed.

Response to jberryhill (Reply #69)

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
232. The only questionable analogy I saw was you comparing
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:52 PM
Jun 2018

this incident to someone stealing an expensive automobile.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
334. You don't get it. This thing, to a child, looks more like a toy -- a large doll --
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:27 PM
Jun 2018

than it does a piece of art.

What is expected? It is expected that valuable art in a community center frequented by families will be behind plexiglass or a rope, with signage, and secured in place.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
67. Last Thanksgiving, a young child of guest used my towel bars to do chin ups, leaving a 18 inch hole
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:43 AM
Jun 2018

the wall, requiring me to replace most of the wall with drywall to replace the towel bar. My home, is (granted) no museum, but like the child climbing on the pedestal in that community center, I am not prepared to have my home used as a jungle gym.

I was kind to the family, who had very begrudgingly suggested they would pay saying " should only be $20 or $30, right?" and ultimately bore the $275 charges to get someone out to replace dry wall, paint, and replace the towel bar myself. The family will NEVER be invited back again, however and I want nothing to do with them again.


No. Parents (and pet owners, for that matter) are responsible for monitoring the behavior of their children--everywhere.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
191. They paid nothing...offering to pay only $20-$30 that they suggested it would take to repair
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:40 PM
Jun 2018

an 18 inch diameter void left in my dry wall and the destroyed towel bar. I paid $275 to replace that entire wall, paint, and replace the bar. That was the cheapest of three estimates I'd gotten to repair it and restore a very necessary half bathroom.

If you think their apology was any better or more sincere than that insulting "begrudging offer" to pay a minuscule part of the true damages, I've got swamp land for you.

Very entitled parents of an "out-of-control" child. The other guests were likewise aghast, so they lost more than just me as a previously close friend.

I don't blame the child. I blame the parents.

I understand the urge of many on this thread to defend the parents of the child who destroyed expensive property. Parenting is tough and they (DU posters) are themselves likely very responsible, teach their kids, and watch them. But, not all parents are so responsible.

 

RhodeIslandOne

(5,042 posts)
236. Ugh
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 09:48 PM
Jun 2018

I wasn't completely understanding when you said "they bore the cost" whether you successfully twisted their arm to pay up the full amount. I would have taken the assholes to small claims court at that point.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
246. You don't think there's a difference between a common towel bar fixed to a wall
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 12:19 AM
Jun 2018

and a highly fragile art piece?

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
256. i think there is a lot of similarity
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:56 AM
Jun 2018

Children not being supervised nor taught how to behave and further (and this goes to your other response to me), a tendency for parents to believe they are NOT responsible for the behavior or destruction of their children. The tendency for some parents to believe otherwise is reprehensible. What are they teaching their children?!

In the art/sculpture example, I would argue the responsibility may be shared with the facility if they failed to properly contain the art, but parents who fail to supervise their children ARE at least partially responsible for the destruction they cause.

I'm not wealthy. Destruction of my entire bathroom wall to the tune of $275 was no small thing. Your casually referring to it as "just a towel bar" was just as insulting as those parents who likewise treated it as no big deal. And YES, those parents had the responsibility to teach their child not to do a chin chin up on a bathroom towel rack. I took the high road and assumed that cost myself in the spirit of Thanksgiving and said nothing more to them. But, I will never socialize with them, nor will the other four couples who were equally aghast at their attitude and irresponsibility.

Parents do bear responsibility for the behavior of their children. Shit happens and surely efforts to ameliorate their burden or repercussions is not necessarily a bad thing. This does NOT mean giving parents a pass on any responsibility whatsoever

kcr

(15,317 posts)
262. It's not just about whether parents are responsible for their children
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:30 AM
Jun 2018

and it's not the same. Your towel bar is a functional item permanently attached to the wall. You can't put that away. But if you left your 100,000 dollar vase out teetering precariously on a coffee table while entertaining guests and it gets damaged, you were careless and it's your fault if it gets damaged, regardless of who damaged it.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
265. Parents who allow their chldren to climb up and hang on a pedestal unwatched are IRRESPONSIBLE
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:39 AM
Jun 2018

Are they COMPLETELY to blame--arguably no, but every bit as irresponsible as the parents who let their child run unattended at my home causing $275 worth of destruction. By your argument the parents could have allowed their child to destroy every and anything not nailed down in my home. Hell, why not.

My gawd, if this is your idea of responsible parenting, I am very thankful you are not my neighbor.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
267. It's clear you were triggered
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:44 AM
Jun 2018

And so the story of a sculpture of hot garbage that is highly overvalued and wasn't anchored properly is going to seem exactly like your story even though it isn't the same at all, and so there is just no discussing this with you.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
270. Triggered by those who would argue parents don't have to be responsible for
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:52 AM
Jun 2018

teaching their children and monitoring them? I have given those parents the benefit of the doubt that they may not be fully responsible for the statue, just as I gave the parents who thanked me for my hospitality by allowing their child to destroy part of my home with not an ounce of concern.

I wasn't raised that way, would not raise my children that way (or even allow my pets to run wild like that) and when shit inevitably happens, I would show my children that I take responsibility for making amends for the damage that occurred.

What on earth kind of example are you setting for your children to do otherwise?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
275. No matter how well raised a child, they will
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:09 AM
Jun 2018

eventually do something. Meek little children are not generally seen, even in earlier times.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
281. Of course. I never argued to the contrary. I made restitution for the mistakes made by both
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:17 AM
Jun 2018

children and pets in my care--never expected others to be responsible for my own, nor would I want any child of mine to be taught there are no repercussions to mistakes, even those unintentional.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
285. I would expect that, but if the child is as young as 5
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:23 AM
Jun 2018

it is not like the child is all that teachable yet as to those things. And if the value of the thing is very high, you might not agree any longer. I recall my sister's nephew by marriage breaking something in my apartment and the parents readily paid to fix it, but it was just a thing in my apartment. If I had a 100K sculpture there, I would have been the one to warn them of the outrageous value of said thing.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
287. Children as young as five are old enough to learn basic concepts of behavior & consequences.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:25 AM
Jun 2018

If they don't learn from their parents, even if society gives those parents a "break" on their own consequences, it i is surely not a kindness to these children and their own futures.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
289. This child probably did learn something
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:27 AM
Jun 2018

But the parents are not getting a "break" where the facility so negligently placed this object. It should have been in a thick glass enclosure. Even in a museum, it might be.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
293. I don't see him as unsupervised and unattended
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:42 AM
Jun 2018

that would be no parents there at all. But standing around in a social situation saying goodbye, the kids are right there, but if you talk a while, they might wander off. You might notice, but they can do a lot in a second.

A lot of these opinions likely go back to childhood. My parents were forever socializing, especially after church. We wanted to go home! We ended up running around the lobby. But there was nothing there to break. It was a school, and there were some football trophies. Behind glass, even there.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
274. I was recently in a car accident where I was not hurt
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:07 AM
Jun 2018

but the car was really crushed. I heard the sentiment; it's only a car; at least you were not hurt.

I recall a priest telling a story where he and his brother's crushed a lamp playing rough. Their mother valued this lamp highly, but said "I can't get another son. I can get another lamp."

Things are things. But People are people. Kids are kids. They do stupid things. They do have to be taught, but they learn along the way, and are taught by doing stupid things.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
286. They are likewise taught responsibillity or IRRESPONSIBILITY by the model set by parents
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:23 AM
Jun 2018

I'm appalled some here argue otherwise. Yes, mistakes happen and should be forgiven. But one learns by one's mistakes ONLY by taking responsibility for those mistakes.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
288. At what age?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:26 AM
Jun 2018

I would not guilt and blame a 5-year-old too much. And we don't know what the parents have said to the child about it. They may well have said something.

It's the liability among adults, and there, plenty of responsibility should be assigned those who negligently place this supposedly valuable thing without at least a velvet rope, if not a glass enclosure, in a place that is not an art museum and has a lot of people partying in it.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
290. we are talking about parents.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:28 AM
Jun 2018

I always thought it to be a very ugly side of right wing conservationism to think they should take no responsibility for anything. This whole thread--from self-described progressives disturbs me greatly.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
294. No responsibility is not the same as
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:43 AM
Jun 2018

realizing others might have some. Like whoever put that valuable thing in such a vulnerable place.

hlthe2b

(102,298 posts)
295. It is when you are suggesting the parents take NO responsbility. I said SHARED
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:46 AM
Jun 2018

It seems you are arguing against them having any responsibility whatsoever.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
339. It is conceivable
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:56 PM
Jun 2018

they have none. As in any accident, various parties may be comparatively negligent, some none or on occasion all. Also depends on the law of the state - contributory negligence, comparative, etc.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
406. The major mistake was made by the adults, who failed to secure the statue properly,
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:16 PM
Jun 2018

and who failed to rope or cordon it off, or even post a sign.

But instead of the adults who placed the statue taking responsibility, they're blaming the 5 year old and his mother (who, if the statue had been properly roped off and signed, might have known to warn her son.)

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
317. People who put attractive nuisances in community centers should be responsible
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:38 PM
Jun 2018

for -- at the very least -- roping them off and putting a sign on them.

How is any child supposed to know by looking at that thing that it was a valuable piece of art and not a toy?

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
322. The parents are supposed to keep their kids in leg irons or something
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:57 PM
Jun 2018

to prevent things like this from happening.

Bettie

(16,111 posts)
374. Maybe the Hannibal Lechter rig
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 12:45 AM
Jun 2018

from Silence of the Lambs.

I'm sure that some would be happy with that, others would still be offended that they have to even share public spaces with children.

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
376. Nice try with the misused legal term.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 01:20 AM
Jun 2018

This sculpture was in no way an attractive nuisance. Besides, even that wouldn't excuse the liability of the child/parents for destroying it

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
381. It was an attractive nuisance. It attracted the child,
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 02:41 AM
Jun 2018

and it was improperly secured, so that it could cause harm. It didn't belong in a place like a community center, frequented by families -- not unless it was cordoned off and properly signed.

The community center is lucky that the child wasn't seriously injured, because it could have been sued by the parents.

https://realestate.findlaw.com/owning-a-home/dangers-to-children-attractive-nuisances.html

Children are playful and curious – traits which are important for learning and exploration, but which can also land them in dangerous situations. Everyday objects on other people's property can irresistibly draw children onto the property, but also present them with hidden dangers.

If your property contains items that both draw children in and threaten them with harm, the law places a special responsibility on you to take steps to protect the children who may come onto your property. This duty is generally called the "attractive nuisance" doctrine.

Typically, the attractive nuisance doctrine has three components:

The law doesn't expect children to fully comprehend the dangers they may face
If a property owner has reason to believe that children might come onto their property, the law places a special responsibility on them to prevent harm
If an owner fails to meet this responsibility, they will most likely be held liable for the child's injuries.

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
388. No it wasn't.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 11:50 AM
Jun 2018

That doctrine applies to child trespassers. In this case, the owner owes the typical duties a property owner owes to licensees or invitees.

And go ahead and read the stuff you posted. Attractive nuisance law concerns the tort liability of the property owner for injuries, not the liability of the child for damage to the owners property.

I always get a kick out of non-lawyers suddenly becoming experts because they read a findlaw article.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
389. There is a lawyer on this page who is also arguing that the facility
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 01:11 PM
Jun 2018

was at faut, not the mother and/or the small child.

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
390. Well point me to whatever theory he/she is basing that on.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 01:23 PM
Jun 2018

I'm certain it isn't attractive nuisance.

I'm sympathetic to the notion that the center ought to cover the costs, but I know of no legal reason to force them to.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
393. There are actually at least 2 lawyers arguing on the side of the mother.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 04:33 PM
Jun 2018

And post #151 cites attractive nuisance.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
422. While I see the distinction that he was not a trespasser and the invitee standards would apply
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:06 PM
Jun 2018

Arguing that the thing is an attractive nuisance isn't out of the question, proving even trespassing kids could have sued had they been hurt by it, makes it likely it falls into invitee terrority:

The property owner has a duty to make the property safe for the invitee, which includes conducting a reasonable inspection of the premises to uncover hidden dangers. The property owner also has a duty to warn the invitee of hazardous conditions that cannot be fixed.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invitee

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
425. You can't sue for merely having an attractive nuisance.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:11 PM
Jun 2018

It is a method of establishing a breach of the applicable duty of care in a negligence tort, which requires injury. You can't preemptively sue on the theory that someone might trespass and get hurt.

But, again, none of this has anything to do with liability for the property damage and would not be a defense AT ALL.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
419. a lawyer could certainly argue that it is an attractive nuisance
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:02 PM
Jun 2018

that would have been liable had it hurt the kid, in the kid's defense.

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
421. Ignoring the (still) wrong definition of an attractive nuisance,
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:04 PM
Jun 2018

how would that be a defense to liability for the damaged property?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
423. Wouldn't it infer the owner's negligence
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:08 PM
Jun 2018

It would buttress the owner's negligence to say he owed a duty to the defendant, rather than the other way round. I would look further regarding invitees, and what damage they do as opposed to damage done to them. But true the case would not be about it unless the kid got hurt and sued.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
417. According to the Restatement of Torts, Section 339
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:57 PM
Jun 2018

Attractive Nuisance Elements:

The place where the condition exists is one on which the possessor knows or has reason to know that children are likely to trespass, and
The condition is one of which the possessor knows or has reason to know and which he realizes or should realize will involve an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily harm to such children,
The children, because of their youth, do not discover the condition or realize the risk involved in inter-meddling with it or in coming within the area made dangerous by it
The utility to the possessor of maintaining the condition and the burden of eliminating the danger are slight as compared with the risk to children involved, and
The possessor fails to exercise reasonable care to eliminate the danger or otherwise to protect the children.


Here it could be used as a defense.

SomethingNew

(279 posts)
418. You skipped right over the word "trespass."
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:59 PM
Jun 2018

Furthermore, the attractive nuisance doctrine has absolutely nothing to do with offsetting or mitigating liability for damaged property.

Cracklin Charlie

(12,904 posts)
137. Would you install an expensive, fragile item,
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:51 AM
Jun 2018

Without making sure that it was securely protected against breakage, or theft?

That thing fell right over after a touch from a little kid. I think it should have been properly secured.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
179. the site is responsible for securing items
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:34 PM
Jun 2018

If this was so poorly set that a 5-year-old could knock it down, I think the community center should probably have come up with a way to make sure that didn't happen.
Parents should not have to tie their kids up to make sure they don't bump into anything.

Well, hindsight is 20/20, but this could have been foreseen and prevented by the community center. That is what you're supposed to do.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
316. How would a child know this is a piece of art and not a climbing toy? It's in a community center,
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:36 PM
Jun 2018

and it's not roped off or signed.

Why hadn't the artist or community center done anything to keep it from being knocked over? This is on them, not the child.

LenaBaby61

(6,974 posts)
135. "5 year old's touch sends on-loan sculpture crashing to floor. Kansas City bills parents 132K."
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:46 AM
Jun 2018
We can't expect children not to behave like children, but we can expect their parents to be nearby in places where expensive things can be easily broken. They'll end up having to pay, I'm sure.

This is one of the potential problems with free-ranging children.


THIS.

As a kid, my parents ALWAYS had me by their side at ALL times whenever I was with one of both of them. I see kids now-a-days, and their parents aren't even near or around them, and it's very alarming.

A friend told me a few weeks ago that she was loading groceries into her jeep, and there was a young child standing at the rear of her jeep bumper. She said she looked around and saw no one. So, she said the took the child (About 5 she said) into the store to the manager's desk. The manager made an announcement describing the child's look/what he was wearing. My friend said 3-4 minutes later, a women came strolling slowly to the manager's desk holding a giant Slurpee. She said the manager told this woman that the boy had been missing for about 10 minutes, and why she didn't notice? My friend said the woman said my son looks okay--he's fine. My friend said the manager went in on this woman. She looked at the manager, Slurpee in hand, and pulled her kid by the arm and left. She said the woman didn't really seem to care--didn't even say thank you for returning her child to her. Wow

The situation I described was very different than the situation in Kansas, but the bottom line is that parents really must watch their children closely at ALL times.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
172. We had a near drowning incident yesterday here in the Twin Cities
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:20 PM
Jun 2018

A three year old and a 17 month old had climbed into an above-ground swimming pool. The three year old climbed back out OK, but the little one couldn't and was found floating face down after five minutes.

The parent? In the kitchen, preparing some food. Fortunately the child survived without any apparent long-term effects. The kids had walked out the door and headed straight for the pool. A video camera was aimed at the pool, but nobody was watching it.

Kids do stuff. They sometimes do stuff that kills them. Parents need to always have an eye on young children. Always.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
244. Things like that have always happened.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 12:03 AM
Jun 2018

From some of the posts in this thread, like the one you've responded to here, you'd think this kind of thing is an entirely new phenomenon that never, ever happened in generations past. "I see kids now-a-days..." the poster said. That's a load of crap. There have always been drownings and near-drownings of children, to use your example, and there have always been kids who accidentally knock things over and break them.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
276. The kid who accidentally breaks a window with a baseball
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:11 AM
Jun 2018

If the kid is old enough, they can learn via telling them they should pay for it, use the paper route money. I agree the bit about the snowflakes of today is getting absurd. The parents can teach that kid that this is something to look out for. But a 5-year-old understanding the art work concept is going to be tough.

yardwork

(61,657 posts)
269. The object was easily accessible in a community center.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:47 AM
Jun 2018

If this was a museum or arts center I would agree with you. But this was a community center, where young children would be assumed to run and play. Stupid place to put a fragile art installation.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
277. This is the bottom line
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:13 AM
Jun 2018

and what it all boils down to. Yes parents should watch kids, but kids in transition of learning not to mess with just anything are going to break things, but in this particular case, who would expect a piece of art work with such a price tag to be there unprotected by anything. And a lot of us don't understand the value (my whole life's work would not be worth the price assigned to that thing - it just doesn't look that valuable to me).

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
410. That value was just the artist's pipe dream. He'd had it on sale for months and no one
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:24 PM
Jun 2018

had purchased it.

Now he finally sees a way to make some money from it. He thinks it's worth more broken than it ever was intact.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
415. It certainly has gained more attention getting broken
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:47 PM
Jun 2018

Maybe he should credit the 5-year-old and a co-artist and display it laying broken on the ground. Would make as much sense as a lot of modern art does.

I remember at the Tate in London in the 80s there was a circle of bricks and stones on the floor as a work of art. We discussed how if anyone moved a few of them, they might be creating a different work of art.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
30. You break, you buy
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:23 AM
Jun 2018

The value of the item doesn’t change that.

Now, if it were mine would I have tried to find a way to better secure it to the pedestal? Probably. But that really isn’t a factor because the fall didn’t happen in the course of reasonable actions- climbing on it is innaby circumstances not appropriate.

And it’s the parent or guardians responsibility to keep their children from engaging in inappropriate behavior in public, and their responsibility to pay for damages that occur when they fail in that.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
35. Was this a store, museum or glass shop?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:26 AM
Jun 2018

The letter is from the insurance company.

Since "you break, you buy" is apparently the applicable rule, can you tell me how the law works in relation to "you pay insurance premiums..."

Because this was a public facility, they are taxpayers, and they are the ones PAYING the insurance on the ridiculously expensive and fragile object placed in a party venue.

On top of their taxes, someone was paying to rent the facility. Do you suppose part of what is paid in insurance was likely factored into the rental fee?

What happened here is that the insurance company got the claim and said "why the fuck did they put that statute in there? we're not paying that!"

The responsibility lies with whomever made the genius decision to put an unstable expensive top-heavy glass sculpture in a multi-purpose community center.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
50. Like this
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:34 AM
Jun 2018

Imagine if this kid had grabbed a lit candle at the wedding, run up to an expensive vintage convertible car the bride and groom were about to ride away in, thrown it inside and caught the car on fire.

The insurance company will pay the car owner. Then the company will come after the kids parents for the money.

Just like when you are in an accident. Say your car is parked and a kid hits it riding a bicycle and does several thousand dollars damage. Your insurance company will pay the claim to fix your car, then they will likely go after the person that hit it to get paid back for that.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
58. You are completely missing the relevant context
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:39 AM
Jun 2018

I understand why you have to come up with examples which are not public facilities, because you keep having to resort to ones involving private property.

This is a public facility in which a sculpture was negligently mounted.

They are LUCKY the sculpture didn't fall on the kid.

But if the sculpture did fall on the kid and kill the kid, you'd be arguing that the parents needed to pay for the sculpture?

This was a hazard in a public facility.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
351. I read one police account where part of the sculpture did fall toward the kid,
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:37 PM
Jun 2018

and the boy tried to catch it but failed. Also, he had some facial injury. So the community center should be glad the boy didnt get more seriously injured, because that would cost them a lot more money.

And the idea that that thing, which was on sale there for 2 months with no takers, was worth whatever the artist thinks it was, is laughable.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
360. Thank you. People are saying all sorts of weird stuff -- this art work was, as you say,
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:40 PM
Jun 2018

negligently mounted and that's that. No need to go any further. The community center knows the type of public that attends at its facilities, and failed to secure the art work so it would not fall easily. They are indeed lucky it did not fall on the poor kid and kill him.

marybourg

(12,633 posts)
46. This may be the policy of a store, but it is not
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:32 AM
Jun 2018

the law. You are always free to offer a defense to a charge of damaging someone’s property.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
61. And if it goes to court I'm sure they will
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:40 AM
Jun 2018

Based on the video it’s clear the child caused the damage. And it’s clear there isn’t an adult there watching his actions.

Their counter arguemeng will be something like “you should have put this up in a way kids could climb on it without damaging it”.

And a judge or jury will decide what party is right.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
68. When it is on display in the museum, does the museum have guards?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:43 AM
Jun 2018

I have never been to a museum which did not have guards.

What are the guards in an art museum for?
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
83. I've seen museums with no or minimal guards
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:55 AM
Jun 2018

I’ve been in plenty with no guards and lots of galleries with none.

And I’ve never been in a museum with a guard or staff member in every room watching every piece.

There are certain standards of behavior expected or people. Not climbing on an art display is one that pretty much everyone can agree is a pretty basic standard of behavior in a public place.

And while children don’t always behave as we expect people to, it’s the job of the parents to ensure they do. Its not the job of a guard to watch the closeness because the parents are negligent and don’t watch them. To blame the place for not having guards because the parents failed to control the child is to say the parents don’t have to make kids behave and we need guards everywhere.

If the kid went into an electronics store that had their centerpiece display a $20,000 88” TV and the kid ran up unsupervised and tried to climb it and ripped it from the wall would you blame the store for not mounting it in a way that it could be used as a jungle gym, or not having a guard every 5 feet to stop wild kids?

It’s simple. Parents didn’t watch kid, kid runs out of sight. Kid tried to use art display as a jungle gym. Unsupervised kid causes damages. Parents are responsible for kids actions.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
84. I was asking you about the normal environment for THIS sculpture
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:56 AM
Jun 2018

Again, the electronics store is not relevant.

Does the electronics store rent itself out for parties?
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
96. None of that matters
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:02 AM
Jun 2018

It’s a simple case.

Was the statue damaged? Yes.

Who damaged it? The kid.

How did he damage it? By climbing on it.

Is it reasonable to expect people to climb onto a statute on a pedestal? No.

Who was responsible for the child’s actions? The parents.

Did the Parents adequately supervise the child during the time the damages happened? No.

It doesn’t matter if there was a guard or not. There could have been a guard at the entrance to the facility or even 10 feet away or the room
Could have been full of guards and that wouldn’t have changed who is responsible one single bit. It’s not the cities job to provide guards to babysit people children when they fail to keep them under control.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
100. Oh, it certainly does matter
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:05 AM
Jun 2018

This piece was on loan. It was taken out of its normal environment and placed into an entirely inappropriate environment free of the normal safeguards which prevent it from injuring people.

The notion that you can rent out a place for wedding receptions, and expect that every child among hundreds that are going to be at dozens of events held there, is going to be under close scrutiny for every millisecond, suggests that there are some people who did not learn important lessons when they were growing up.
 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
106. I don't expect every child perfect- I expect Parents to take responsibility when they are not
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:08 AM
Jun 2018

When your kid breaks something because they are misbehaving and you failed to supervise them, you take responsibility.

You don’t whine that it’s everybodies fault but yours and they should have hired guards to watch for your kids misbehaving or that they should have expected kids to use art displays like jungle gyms so you bear no responsibility.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
188. Why not apply that to the Met?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:31 PM
Jun 2018

Or the Philadelphia Art Museum? They have guards in every room. Why should they, when the people coming through are responsible? Why do they put ropes around some displays, or glass, or put them behind glass? They should only have to rely on the responsibility of people.

The law of negligence exists and can be argued in any case. It is not just "you break it, you buy it" - that saying is the wish of merchants who find someone accidentally damaged something while in the store.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
412. I expect people who run facilities to take responsibility for keeping them safe.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:34 PM
Jun 2018

And that means properly installing heavy and fragile objects so they are secure, and cordoning them off from the public, and posting signs.

marybourg

(12,633 posts)
130. Here's where your logic fails:
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:35 AM
Jun 2018

Is it reasonable to expect people to climb on a sculpture? The answer, for a venue that invites children. is "yes ".

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
148. Maybe that disagreement is part of the problem
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:26 PM
Jun 2018

When I think of a place like a wedding venue I don’t, in fact, think it’s reasonabel to expect kids to be running around unsupervised climbing on art displays like they are playground equipment.

But I seem to be in the camp that actually expects parents to actually act like, well, parents and make their kids behave.

That people think it’s reasonable to expect children at a wedding venue to treat art displays like playground equipment amazes me. But maybe that’s the disconnect here on different expectations for how parents should handle their kids.

marybourg

(12,633 posts)
171. I'm in my mid seventies, so my idea of
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:18 PM
Jun 2018

appropriate child discipline is on the conservative side, but facts are facts, and no parent can be within collar-grabbing reach of every child at every minute, especially at a festive event like a wedding. It is incumbent on the owner of th premises to make arrangements appropriate to the projected use and invited audience.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
212. If the parents can't supervise their child at a wedding, then the child shouldn't be at the wedding.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:03 PM
Jun 2018

It's like saying if your kid drowns in a public swimming pool while you were running errands at the store next door that it is the city's fault for putting all that water there and not having lifeguards 24/7.

If the city put up signs saying there was no lifeguard on duty it is not their responsibility to keep the kid out of the water. It is the parent's.

Is it the city's fault when a kid runs into the road for not having guard rails along the full length of every public road? No, it is the parent's responsibility to keep their kid from running into the road, even if they are very young.

If the community hall had had a stairwell and the kid climbed over the railing and fell would it be the fault of the community hall for only having waist high railings instead of floor to ceiling? No. Because we do not have an expectation that every public venue will be 100% childproofed. Because the expectation is that children in public places will be supervised.

The parents took their kid into public. They weren't forced to go to the wedding and they weren't forced to take their kid. They could have gotten a sitter if they wanted to be able to focus on the party instead of their child's wellbeing. They let the kid out of their sight for a significant period of time. The kid started climbing on something they they obviously shouldn't have been climbing on and damaged it. Therefore the parents are responsible.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
225. I recall being taken to weddings as a kid
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:33 PM
Jun 2018

We never spent the time with parents. They were boring as hell for us. We found the other kids and played. I don’t recall there was anything destructible at the venues. Usually they were the type of places that had no expensive art work.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
189. the issue is where the parents negligent
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:33 PM
Jun 2018

bringing up how long the kid was doing things they were not aware of; how far away the kid was, how old the kid was and whether the parents should foresee that things of over 100K value were out for the kid to mess up.

It may not be a playground, but it is not a glass shop (where you'd expect parent to not bring kid or keep kid by the side in a vise grip every second).

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
368. Here, this will make you feel better
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 09:34 PM
Jun 2018

Usually, the statue wins:


https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/police-2-year-old-dies-after-statue-falls-on-him/


A 2-year-old Utah boy was killed when a 6-foot-tall dolphin statue fell on him in the Fisherman’s Wharf area of San Francisco, police said Monday.

The toddler was apparently playing on Friday when he climbed up and wrapped his arms and legs around the heavy metal statue outside Majestic Collection Art Gallery, bringing it down, police spokesman Officer Gordon Shyy said.

The boy was initially treated for a nose bleed by emergency crews. He was taken to San Francisco General Hospital, where he died from internal injuries a few hours later.
------------

When you say "a place like a wedding venue", you seem to be neglecting that this is a multi-purpose community center used for all sorts of community events.

There are a lot of things that children are not supposed to climb on or touch. The fact of the matter is that a facility which is generally used by the public for all sorts of things is - with absolute certainty - going to include among its thousands of visitors, a child who due to a moment's inattention, is not being watched. It's not a matter of "if" but "when".

Certainly, in the story above, the child shouldn't be climbing on the statue. But this is a very heavy object which a 30 pound kid was able to dislodge, and which crushed him to death. I guess it's just one of those things that nobody could have seen coming (unless, of course, they are very, very stupid).

GReedDiamond

(5,313 posts)
185. The child did not cause the damage...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:22 PM
Jun 2018

...the facility that mounted it without securing it to the pedestal nor roping it off to keep people away from it are responsible for this. And, as has been noted, the facility that did not properly secure the piece is lucky that the kid was not killed or seriously injured by the ugly sculpture.

And, fuck the insurance company for attempting to avoid their responsibility to pay the damages.

fescuerescue

(4,448 posts)
386. The insurance company did uphold its responsibility
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 09:29 AM
Jun 2018

To make the owner whole.

Now however, the insurance company is legally entitled to recover damages, assuming they can prove the fault lies with the family. That's standard insurance company 101.

Having said that - I don't think they will collect. I don't see a judge or jury ruling against the family here as I agree that the owners were negligent in putting an expensive sculpture, poorly secured in a public facility.

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
36. Interesting. The glass statue was perched on a display column. The vid clearly
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:26 AM
Jun 2018

shows the fve year old struggling to reach up and grasp the piece.

While it happened quickly, it looks like the kiddo had no problem trying to touch something clearly put out of reach for him.

Kids are born entitled and self center they think everything is for them.

It is exhausting to teach the why's of "don't touch."

The parents are not on solid ground with this one...

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
44. Really people? Children can discrimate between a museum and a community center?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:30 AM
Jun 2018

The vid clearly shows the kiddo marching up to the statue and grab it.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
53. No, but parents can
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:36 AM
Jun 2018

I did not take my small children to sculpture museums.

I did take my small children to wedding receptions.

I never expected, upon taking my small children to a wedding reception, that I would be unable to dance or socialize with others because I had to watch my children carefully because the wedding reception was being held in a freaking sculpture museum.

The expected foreseeable consequences of running a museum, and running a wedding reception venue, are very different for the persons running them.

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
73. The "don't touch" lesson starts the minute kiddos start the 50 yard dash.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:47 AM
Jun 2018

While not taking 5 year olds to a museum is a personal choice, it does not negate the "don't touch" lesson that needs to applied every time the kiddo reaches for something not theirs, or not meant to be touched.

I personally favor art in public spaces, it enhances the environment and gives us pause to ponder.

The kid thought he could, so he did.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
74. had the child been killed or injured by the statue...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:48 AM
Jun 2018

...what would you be saying?

Art installations are great. Public hazards, not so much.

Thank you for the parenting lesson. How I raised kids into their 20s and 30s is a complete mystery to me.

What I don't do, is run a public facility with a fragile, unstable and expensive glass sculpture, which I then rent out to groups of people with children.

When is THAT lesson taught?

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
81. I don't know the answer to your question. There are plenty of examples of pieces that
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:54 AM
Jun 2018

can injure when toppled that have not been secured.
Department stores, displays in grocery stores, displays on wire racks, climbing on books shelves and dressers, on and on.

Admonishing children is a parents job.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
89. And what is the job of a manager of a public facility used for parties?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:00 AM
Jun 2018

Here's the thing... if you rent out a facility for parties, it is reasonably foreseeable that there will be children. There will be blind people as well (as one of mine is). Children, blind people, people who have been drinking in this party venue, are going to bump into things. Over any number of statistical samples, shit happens.

It is the responsibility of a person in charge of such a facility to ensure that hazards such as a glass sculpture are at least secured appropriately in view of the reasonably foreseeable consequences of renting the facility out for parties.

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
101. Reasonable assertion. Maybe the parents will argue that to a 50//50 settlement.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:06 AM
Jun 2018

The kid had no business touching. I would not let the parents off scott free.

A video showing a blind person bumping into the statue would be dreamed an accident vs. a
deliberate, unsupervised action.

elleng

(130,978 posts)
139. Fun with Torts, everyone's favorite class!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:53 AM
Jun 2018

and Contracts @ Wedding Receptions!

Enjoying this thread, berryhill!!!

csziggy

(34,136 posts)
154. The "column" was part of the piece
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:36 PM
Jun 2018

Here is the entire piece:



The base, the "column," and the statue are all one piece.

I don't understand why this piece was not roped off. While that might not have stopped the child from approaching it, that might have discouraged most people from getting within "hugging" distance.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
405. If the artwork had been secured, it wouldn't have topped over. And it should have
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:14 PM
Jun 2018

been roped or cordoned off, which could have stopped the boy. We'll never know.

JenniferJuniper

(4,512 posts)
40. I'll bet 50 bucks the family sues or is suing
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:29 AM
Jun 2018

for the boy's "injuries" and PTSD.

I think we're all tired uncontrolled kids roaming public spaces, but I will say that was a dumb exhibit.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
43. I was at an art museum not too long ago...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:30 AM
Jun 2018

and was looking at this brilliant, vivid, pallet-knife oil painting and I was wondering if the paint had actually dried (local artists show). I compulsively reached out to the edge of the canvas frame just to see - and a guard yelled out, "Don't touch the paintings!"

He followed me everywhere I went after that to the embarrassment of my family.

Anything of value displayed in public has to be watched and protected (insured) - there are impulsive dumbasses like me and children everywhere in America!

Aristus

(66,397 posts)
48. Pay up, Mommy and Daddy.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:33 AM
Jun 2018

If you can't discipline your little ankle-biter, you're going to have to pay the price.

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
55. Yep. Because ya know the 5 year old thinks all public spaces are for his whims and fancy!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:38 AM
Jun 2018

Don't touch means don't touch. It matters not if it a department store, community center or museum.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
190. use of term "ankle-biter"
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:38 PM
Jun 2018

usually indicates a child-hater so with luck, those usually don't have kids.

 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
198. Kids are awesome!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:10 PM
Jun 2018

It is the parents who cause us grief with their generally consistent sense of entitlement when it comes to society and their little angels.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
411. Many things in a community center CAN be touched. What seems obvious to an adult --
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:31 PM
Jun 2018

the things that can be safely touched -- are not obvious to a child.

And what is "art" and what is a big toy isn't necessarily obvious to a child.

Here is a typical community center. Look at all the things that can be touched. Chairs, tables, foos ball tables, a pool table, exercise equipment, doors, floors, and other surfaces.

From a young child's perspective, the rules on what can and can't be touched seem arbitrary and sometimes surprising -- especially because their developmental stage means that they LEARN through touching. Their brains drive them to touch. It takes years for most children to learn the adult rules on touching.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/18/trump-aides-plan-fresh-immigration-crackdowns-before-midterms-652246

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
413. As I noted in a previous post perhaps the parents might
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:37 PM
Jun 2018

share responsibilty with the community center.

I saw the vid. Looks like he wanted to take it home.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
414. That might be the case IF the statue had been posted with a warning sign,
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:39 PM
Jun 2018

and had been roped off or otherwise cordoned off. It wasn't. There was no notice to anyone that the statue posed a hazard.

Ninga

(8,275 posts)
416. I hope the kid stays away from church
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:52 PM
Jun 2018

statues and bowls, and vases of flowers, and pictures in frames, all of which rightly can be perched on pedestals, unroaped off and exposed to all.

Yes, the community center should have secured....but the kiddo was out of control.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
429. A community center with a loud party going on, with alcohol being served,
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:55 PM
Jun 2018

is nothing like a quiet church.

The facility managers failed to do their job to protect the public.

Fla Dem

(23,693 posts)
59. For the most part, I expect parents to keep their eye on their kids.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:39 AM
Jun 2018

But in this situation, it was a public community center, not an art gallery. The township/city should have secured that exhibit better. The artist who loaned out the sculpture should have insured that it was in a protected area, not standing in the middle of a common area. He says it was worth $132,000, it should have been protected like a $132,000 object. And how damaged could that art piece be? Looks like it was made out of metal. Finally, if that item was so irresponsibly placed that a 5 year old could topple it, the onus it on the artist and the community.

If I was the parent, I would sue both of them for the physical and emotional damage they allowed to be visited on my child.

Demovictory9

(32,457 posts)
63. probably some of the little glass panels imbedded in the metal broke. sculpture not entirely destr
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:41 AM
Jun 2018

destroyed. looks fixable

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
438. The artist would rather just have the $132K that no one was willing to pay him
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 09:56 PM
Jun 2018

when the item was still intact (based on the fact that it took him a long time to make it -- which is how no art is ever appraised.)

MaryMagdaline

(6,855 posts)
64. I file subrogation cases for a living
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:41 AM
Jun 2018

This is a classic subrogation case.
Hopefully parents have at least 100k in homeowners insurance and city insurance accepts policy limits to settle the whole claim.

Some of our jurors hate subrogation cases and others are just fine with the idea that the insurance company recoups its losses from the person who caused the damage (usually from their carrier)

Comments above are helpful to understanding the jury pool. 1. Some, anti-insurance 2. Some, anti-mothers. (Both parents were there; mother is one presumed to be at fault)

If I were settling a claim, I would take into account whether the art piece was cordoned off from the public or too accessible. If I were assessing the claim for the parents, I would pay only what the city actually paid for the art. Also, homeowners insurance would tell mother not to give interviews.

JenniferJuniper

(4,512 posts)
97. As he's only 5 and below the age of reason
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:02 AM
Jun 2018

the burden on the subrogating carrier would be to prove negligent supervision. So seems like a compromise case to me. The piece is ridiculous and it seems his parents were ahead of him or behind him.

With that said, I'd be very surprised if the parents don't sue on behalf of the kid. The mother was talking about his injuries in the the video.

MaryMagdaline

(6,855 posts)
104. Yes and often case will settle because policy limits
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:08 AM
Jun 2018

If the family only has the typical 100k homeowners, the insurer will tender limits. By the looks of their home, they may have 300 plus coverage and their carrier can afford to play around a bit with the claim, try to push it lower.

EllieBC

(3,016 posts)
72. There are art pieces in our community centre. SECURED.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:46 AM
Jun 2018

Secured because there are tons of kids there always for events, the ice arena, swimming, etc..

No one with half a brain would not secure a sculpture in a place with high traffic or where kids are around often.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
365. As they should be. Some of the adults here seem to lack common sense.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:59 PM
Jun 2018

It's much more fun to blame the child and his mother, for turning her back while saying goodbye to her hosts.

KG

(28,751 posts)
75. as a child I was taught to keep my hands off things that didn't belong to me.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:49 AM
Jun 2018

worked well all my life.

i'm kinda tired of other peoples kids running around in public spaces while they plaintively request their little bastards sit and be quiet.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
77. As an adult, were you taught not to place expensive hazardous items insecurely in party venues?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:50 AM
Jun 2018

KG

(28,751 posts)
82. as an adult, I learned to laugh at idiotic replies like this one
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:55 AM
Jun 2018

Last edited Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:47 PM - Edit history (1)

I rolled on the floor too

treestar

(82,383 posts)
193. what is idiotic about expecting
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:42 PM
Jun 2018

more care and less negligence from adults who are aware of the value of things? You don't just leave that to random parents out there.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
145. Some of these responses remind me of the saying "the older I get, the better I was"
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:16 PM
Jun 2018

“I was perfect and so were my children!”

“My parents were constantly telling me not to touch things” — oh really? So I assume you were touching things otherwise why were they constantly telling you not to touch things?


My partner got in to an argument with his co-worker about “losing” kids at a zoo after that gorilla was shot due to the kid falling in the enclosure. “How can you lose a kid!?!?” My partner said.

A couple weeks later we took our 5 year old nephew and his mom to the Chicago museums and the Shed Aquarium.

At the end of the day, my partner called his co-worker and apologized. Lol.

By the and of the day, I was ready to feed the kid to the sharks.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
250. When I broke stuff when I was a kid, my parents paid for it - no questions asked
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:56 AM
Jun 2018

because they wanted to teach me to take responsibility for my actions and accept the consequences. Then I didn't get my allowance for a while or had to do extra chores or something else proportional and age appropriate to make up for it.

Nobody expects kids and their parents to be perfect all the time. But when they destroy shit they should own up for it and try to make amends. Otherwise what kind of example is it setting for the kid? Anytime anything bad happens it is always someone else's fault... The mother is a classic example of that kind of irresponsible entitled attitude.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
263. How much stuff did you break as a kid. Just what was the total bill. What are we talking about here?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:32 AM
Jun 2018

Did your parents keep a checkbook handy for breakage?

Did your parents ever get taken advantage of? I mean since they never asked any questions.

I find these threads fascinating. They bring out the this subset of families that were constantly paying for broken stuff.

I honestly don’t remember me or any of my siblings ever causing my parents to pay for broken stuff. Let alone several (was it several?) years of bill paying.

It’s not like my parents stiffed people out of their due. We didn’t even live under some authoritarian regime. It just never came up.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
299. Not that much, because my parents were generally supervising us.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 02:15 PM
Jun 2018

We went to buy a car when I was six and my brother was five. My brother got into one of the cars, put it into neutral and because the car was parked on an incline it rolled back and hit another car parked behind it. My parents paid to repair both cars. They didn't stand around arguing about the fact that the car was on a slope, or that a five year old was able to move one because the emergency brake wasn't on or hey, what are all these cars doing here? They acknowledged that they brought a child into public and then didn't watch what he was doing carefully enough and that therefore they needed to pay up for the damage he inadvertently caused.

They probably did end up paying more than the actual cost of the repairs because they were so mortified but also because they wanted to set an example for us.

When I was sixteen I was taking classes at the community college and had to drive to them and the only place to park was in a gravel section with no marked spaces where you had to drive around a loop to get out. After I'd parked, someone else parked too close to the turn and when I tried to turn around them, I scraped their bumper and crushed in the side of my car. It was only some paint scratches on their bumper, but I left a note, the owner called and said the whole bumper needed to be replaced. And we paid for it - even though it took my whole summer's wages. Because when you damage someone else's stuff, even when you didn't do it on purpose, you take responsibility and cough up. You don't sue the community college for not having a paved parking area with marked spaces. You don't blame the other person for parking too close to the turn. And you don't sit around arguing about the bill when you are clearly at fault.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
340. Your parents might have made themselves
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 05:01 PM
Jun 2018

responsible 100% where the legal system would have gone easier on them. That was quite the attractive nuisance.

People do indeed sue the community college for not having adequate parking. And was someone so irresponsible as to now have insurance on the car? How can it take a whole summer's wages for what would have been a minor repair? What was the deductible? What if the other person did park negligently. You don't put yourself on a cross and flagellate yourself. You let others take responsibility where they are responsible.

And your virtues don't prove that this case is all on the parents 100%. If another entity was negligent, they get to pay for their part. How is it irresponsible not to ding yourself for the whole thing if you were not the only one negligent?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
278. How do you know that is not happening to this kid?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:14 AM
Jun 2018

Though I expect you were older. 5-year-olds are generally not even getting an allowance yet and don't have chores specifically assigned to them, or if they do, the parents remind them. 5 is not old enough to understand paying for that mistake.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
300. Because Mom is on the news blaming everyone under the sun except herself and her kid.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 02:24 PM
Jun 2018

And five is old enough to understand that you shouldn't break other people's things and if you do you should try to make amends at least by apologizing and ideally by replacing or repairing what you broke.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
336. You saw a heavily edited clip of less than one minute.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:32 PM
Jun 2018

You don't know what else she had to say that didn't get aired. You don't know what questions she was answering when she said what you did hear. You have no idea if she is "blaming everyone under the sun except herself and her kid".

treestar

(82,383 posts)
341. I saw the clip here
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 05:03 PM
Jun 2018

Where she is not blaming everyone under the sun. Who she blames is not relevant anyway. The law of negligence would put a lot on the community center leaving this expensive piece unprotected. And the short clip does not address what she said to the child and how she handled it with him.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
192. were you taught this all in one day?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:41 PM
Jun 2018

It is no doubt a process. At 5, you can forget yourself easily.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
430. There are many things in a community center that are perfectly fine to touch.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:59 PM
Jun 2018

It takes time, and frequent reminders, for children to learn that it is fine to touch the chairs, the dining tables, the dishes, the cabinets, the foos ball table, the pool table, the doors, etc. -- but not the big "art" piece that looks like a kid's construction toy.

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
76. Her child was not supervised. She was distracted
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:49 AM
Jun 2018

and her child was not well behaved. I was taught at the age of 2 or 3 -- hands in your pockets or behind you back. I did grow up in a art house, so that may have made a difference, but if your child doesn't know not to touch, then that is not well behaved. JMHO and I am often wrong.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
78. You kept your hands in your pockets or behind your back at wedding receptions?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:52 AM
Jun 2018

Why don't I believe that.

I was taught, at a much older age, not to place hazards in public facilities and rent them out for parties.

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
136. Well, I was watched by lots of people at weddings since they
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:46 AM
Jun 2018

were close family or friends' affairs, and mother did tell the waiter I could have this much champagne in a cup. She neglected to tell him just one. But I still didn't go and grab shit that wasn't mine or told I could grab. The preschool doesn't teach "Mother may I?" or respect for others' things?

Sorry, I also think that people who take their dogs on walks on public land should pick up their poop. I'm not saying this child is an animal, but I'm saying his parents are responsible.

H2O Man

(73,559 posts)
103. Lock him up!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:07 AM
Jun 2018

I say we must send him to one of Session's concentration camps. And throw away the key! Fucking kids these days. Every responsible adult knows that children his age -- much less the 2 and 3 year olds you mention -- do not learn about the outside world from touching. It's unnatural. Time he learns about life on the inside of a cell.

nini

(16,672 posts)
115. 'Every responsible adult knows that children his age..."
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:18 AM
Jun 2018

There it is - 'responsible'. The mom was not being responsible in keeping a close eye on her child.

 

Lee-Lee

(6,324 posts)
122. Bingo.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:25 AM
Jun 2018

People can whine that the expensive art shouldn’t have been there all day long. But that doesn’t matter. It was there, legally, and had people acted responsibly it wouldn’t have been damaged.

Sure, a pure accident could have happened. Someone slips and falls and hits it. A blind person runs into it, etc. In those cases the insurance company would pay and be done.

In this case there was negligence. The child attempted to climb on it or attempted to pull it off the pedestal. The child was unsupervised at the time. So the negligent party in this case was the parent.

They can argue that’s partially mitigated by how it’s displayed. But how it was displayed was perfectly fine for expected behaviors with an art display. And had they maintained control of the child the damage wouldn’t have happened, so they beat the majority if not all the responsibility.

That people think parents who let their child run unsupervised and damage things bear zero responsibility amazes me.

nini

(16,672 posts)
129. How it was displayed would be a bigger factor if she was close by and stopped him.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:35 AM
Jun 2018

That setup certainly didn't help and should play into the scenario as you say. But being the kid was able to hang on it for a bit without her intervention shows she was negligent.

There's nothing better than a DU fight on parenting LOL


 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
143. It amazes me too. No wonder this country is so ***ked up
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:04 PM
Jun 2018
That people think parents who let their child run unsupervised and damage things bear zero responsibility amazes me.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
371. Kids? Heck, look at the dumb ADULTS in Florida who decided to drive under an unfinished bridge!
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:54 PM
Jun 2018

These were full grown adults who couldn’t pick a different route because they thought it was a good idea to drive under a bridge while it was being built.

Or people who crash their cars and then get upset they were hurt by exploding airbags. Here’s a tip - if you don’t want shards of metal flying into your face from an airbag, then don’t drive your car into stuff.

Some people.

nini

(16,672 posts)
223. hahahahahah You're kidding me.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 06:49 PM
Jun 2018

Not always.. they're adults. The blind people I know use a cane and tap around before running into things so they'd know to stop.
Really lame analogy.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
229. I'm responding to a post
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:42 PM
Jun 2018

That assumes it would be covered if a blind person ran into it. So presumably they believe that blind people are in danger of running into it.

Then there are the drunk adults. This is a wedding

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
235. If they try to climb statues and pull them down on to themselves, I guess...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 09:01 PM
Jun 2018

The statue didn't fall because someone casually bumped into it or tapped it with a cane. It fell because a fifty pound child was repeatedly yanking it down onto himself for the better part of a minute.

Is your expectation that every public space needs to be designed so that no behavior, no matter how irrational, unpredictable or devoid of regard for personal safety, could possibly harm anyone? Because if so, we wouldn't have any public space - no trees, blind people could walk into them; no benches - people can trip on them; no rivers or fountains - toddlers could drown in them; no playgrounds - kids can kick each other on the slides, fall off the platforms, hang themselves on the rope ladders; no roads - cars crash all the time; no animals allowed in public parks - some of them bite or carry infectious diseases... let's just encase the whole world in bubble wrap and call it a day.

Or we can acknowledge that parents have a responsibility to supervise and keep their own kids safe in public spaces and, if they are not able or inclined to do that, they need to leave their kids at home until they are old enough not to need that level of supervision.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
241. There's a reasonable expectation
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 10:36 PM
Jun 2018

about various public spaces. You know you have to watch kids on a playground. Or near water.

But at a wedding in a community center how are you to know there might be expensive art pieces? And if you put up an expensive art piece where there are going to be a lot of people, then you know some will be children and that you need to secure it since it is so expensive.

I don't think these parents had a reasonable expectation that there was expensive artwork at this wedding venue. If they were in a museum, it would be different.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
245. How are you to know that there are expensive art pieces?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 12:14 AM
Jun 2018

Two eyes and common sense?

You look in the room before your child goes in there and say: "there's a piece of sculpture that looks expensive and isn't guarded maybe I shouldn't let my kid run around unsupervised in this room".

Seriously anything could have happened to this kid. He could have been kidnapped. If that was the case would we be saying "the community centre is at fault because nobody could have a reasonable expectation that if they let their kid run wild in public while they stood around chatting in another room something bad could happen to him or to someone else. It's everyone else's job to watch this person's kid like a hawk at all times"? Of course not.

Because *anywhere* in public is dangerous for little kids. That's why they have parents in the first place - who are supposed to apply common sense to when and where their kids need to be supervised.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
272. It would be easy never to even notice it was there
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:01 AM
Jun 2018

Or not to think it was expensive. Kidnapping is rare, especially from such an event, and you can't always stay home due to that fear.

But I find your second paragraph crazy. I don't notice half the crap in a public room.

Moosepoop

(1,920 posts)
248. What video did you watch?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 01:58 AM
Jun 2018

You said that "It fell because a fifty pound child was repeatedly yanking it down onto himself for the better part of a minute."

The video at the newser.com link in the OP shows the boy running to the sculpture, stopping in front of it at the the two-second mark, starting to climb it at the three-second mark, and the top piece of the sculpture hitting the floor at the thirteen-second mark.

So about 10 seconds from moment he first touched it, which is not remotely close to "the better part of a minute."

I didn't see the "repeatedly yanking it down" part you mentioned, either. I saw him put his hands on it, and then spend a good 4 or 5 seconds of those ten trying to keep it from falling after it started tipping forward.

Is there a different video with a different timeline and different actions than the one shown?

If not, I'd have to say that an unsecured $132,000 art piece capable of being toppled in 10 seconds by a five-year-old shouldn't have been placed in a community center whose website proclaims:

"From toddlers to seniors, TRCC offers a fun and active environment that everyone in your family can enjoy."



https://www.opkansas.org/things-to-see-and-do/community-centers/tomahawk-ridge-community-center/


A facility that markets itself to families with toddlers has no business putting extremely expensive, fragile, and dangerous items in the common areas of that fun and active family environment that they advertise. That's just common sense.



meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
249. The video is sped up at least x3 or x10. You can see it in the way the other kid moves on the right
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 02:53 AM
Jun 2018

Last edited Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:44 AM - Edit history (1)

and the way the people in the foreground are swaying and how fast the woman in the left corner is walking away. It also looks like there are some jump cuts to shorten it.

At :10 the child is pulling the statue onto himself. He lifts it out of whatever is securing it, then takes his hands off it and steps back and the statue is still secured to the base and on a tilt. Then he goes back and pushes it again and it falls over. He may have been trying to push it back into place, but the point is that it wasn't knocked over by someone momentarily backing into it (which is the comparison I was responding to). It was pushed over by a kid repeatedly pushing and pulling on it. We also don't know what the kid was doing before the excerpt shown on the news since it starts with the kid already standing on the plinth with his arms around the statue.

If it's x3 it's at least 30 seconds not counting the time the kid was approaching a dangerous distance to the statue and anything else he was doing before the video starts (probably at least 40 seconds at a minimum where an adult who was paying attention could have intervened). If it's x10 it's at least a minute and a half.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
280. +1 and 50 pounds seems a bit much
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:16 AM
Jun 2018

I recall weighing 55 in 4th grade - 5 year-olds don't weigh that much.

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
132. Oh, contraire. Pay up parents.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:39 AM
Jun 2018

You break it, you buy it. Can't pay the price? Hold your small child's hand at all times. Hugging statues is not what you should do to someone's art.

I'm hoping you were just jesting and you do think his parents have culpability over their child's actions. Maybe I am too old to be on this planet.

33taw

(2,444 posts)
90. The city buys insurance for a reason. The city also has an obligation to reasonably
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:00 AM
Jun 2018

Protect expensive objects. The insurance company is trying to back out of paying. Just because the insurance company sent a bill does not mean that the family owes the money. Let the insurance company take them to court. 10-1 the insurance company doesn’t want to waste the time and money to litigate their claim.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
116. Actually, this is the one insurance company seeking to recover from the parent's insurance
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:18 AM
Jun 2018

Homeowner's insurance can cover a surprising range of things.

Every now and then a "news story cum torts exam question" gets posted to DU, in complete obliviousness to the maneuverings of insurance companies playing "pin the liability tail on the donkey" which is really going on.

As a lawyer who was once seated on a jury, I had to restrain myself from screaming when my fellow jury members were saying "But wouldn't their insurance company have covered this?" when, what was actually going on, was an injury case in which a health insurer and an auto insurer were using their customers as pawns to determine which insurance company should pay.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
95. No, if the child was killed by the falling statue, the parents should be punished
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:02 AM
Jun 2018

That's what most at DU would likely believe.

There are people here at DU who believe that if a zoo does not contain a tiger against obnoxious patrons, then the patrons deserve to die.

 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
155. Well if an obnoxious zoo patron forces their way into a tiger enclosure
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:37 PM
Jun 2018

I am ok with them becoming a tiger chew toy. Natural consequences and all.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
214. No. On DU, people are okay if the tiger gets out
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:05 PM
Jun 2018

A few years ago, some zoo patrons were taunting a tiger at a zoo in San Francisco. The tiger got out and mauled one.

Because those patrons were of low character, it was okay with most here that a provoked tiger could escape.

This child and his family deserve a public commendation for neutralizing an obvious hazard.

 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
219. Let me rephrase then, if you deliberately antagonize an 800lb alpha predator
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:11 PM
Jun 2018

To the point that it escapes the enclosure to stop the antagonizing behavior then yes you deserve to be a tiger chew toy.

The family (not the child) deserve continued public condemnation for the child's behavior and more importantly the externalization of blame by the parent in interviews.

Just my 2 cents.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
358. So, to be clear
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:33 PM
Jun 2018

If you are at a zoo, part of the risk you consider normal is that some member of the public, a known percentage of which may be psychotic or emotional disturbed, may provoke a tiger to escape an inadequate enclosure and kill you.

Because the usual assumption is that one who is displaying dangerous animals to the public has the responsibility to ensure that the enclosure is adequate to prevent the animal from leaving it under any circumstances.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
350. Not comparable because there was no enclosure around this "art"
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:32 PM
Jun 2018

and nothing that would indicate to the child that it wasn't a big doll.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
197. I remember the law professor saying kids are liable for their torts
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:51 PM
Jun 2018

but the standard for reasonable is different.

Torts are based on what the reasonable prudent person would do. Then the standard changes for the reasonable prudent person in an emergency (recognizes there is no time for as much reflection)

https://lawshelf.com/courseware/entry/torts-of-minors


Minors’ Liability for Own Torts

A minor is responsible for his or her own torts. However, the court will often apply a more lenient standard. In determining tort liability for children, there are special rules, usually based on the age of the minor. Historically, there was a bright-line test based on the child’s age. Specifically:

Under age 7: A child could not be negligent.
Between age 7 and 14: There was a rebuttable presumption that the child could not be negligent.
Between age 14 and 21: There was a rebuttable presumption that the child was capable of negligence.

Use of a subjective test, has replaced the old use of the chronological age test. This test deals with the capacity of a particular child to recognize and avoid risk and harm. Factors considered in this analysis include:

Age
Intelligence
Experience

Shrike47

(6,913 posts)
94. I am in the camp that says the parents did not adequately supervise the child and should pay.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:02 AM
Jun 2018

I don’t care how the piece was displayed or where, children are the responsibility of their parents. If the parents don’t want to supervise them, they should leave them at home.

aikoaiko

(34,172 posts)
109. Overland Park is a city over 150,000 folks. They can payl it should have been secured better.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:14 AM
Jun 2018


But I'm not impressed with the parent trying to trump up the child's injuries, saying that she was "just around the corner" not minding her child, and saying that the art had no place being there (fuck that noise).

True Dough

(17,311 posts)
113. Interesting thread!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:16 AM
Jun 2018

I read through all the posts and I see the validity in arguments from various sides. I'm just glad I'm not the parents, or the responsible party for setting up the venue!

JenniferJuniper

(4,512 posts)
121. I think that's because there is shared negligence here.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:25 AM
Jun 2018

Whether the kid is a brat or not is not relevant. He's too little to be responsible. It's the idiot adults on both sides who are at fault for what happened.

Ilsa

(61,695 posts)
119. Wedding reception? If the sculpture had fallen over and hurt the child,
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:20 AM
Jun 2018

the headlines would be quite different. I think the museum had a responsibility to secure the sculpture in some way, roping it off or making it less approachable by a child. This is especially true if the museum has rented out the place for a private social event.

There is plenty of blame to go around, including by the artist in not making recommendations in hpw to secure it, in what ways it could be dangerous, unstable, etc. I'm a bit surprised that the artist has no desire to fix it, if possible.

logosoco

(3,208 posts)
125. Hard for me to say here who is really at fault.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:27 AM
Jun 2018

This does not really seem to be the type of thing to be displayed in this manner at a community center. It should have been well secured if it was that valuable. Or there should have been one of those rope stands around it.

When my three kids were young, we had a special "umbrella" policy as part of our home owners insurance that would cover any damage they caused away from home. Luckily we never needed it. One day, I took my three kids and four other kids to the St. Louis Art museum. Doesn't sound smart, but it really was fun and interesting for all of us! We started down in the old relics and one of the kids did bump into a display stand and my heart stopped, but it did no harm. As we got up to the modern art, there were so many guards watching everything so closely I almost felt like I could have just let the kids go on their own and they would have been well supervised.

Kids do need to know when it's okay to have hands on and they do need to be told when to not touch things. It really seems like this sculpture was too tempting for the little boy and maybe his parents were being lax since it had no protection or signs. Perhaps I would have been more in the "stay away from that thing" mode as a parent just for common sense. The sculpture looks to easy to push over. They are lucky the kid was not hurt. And I think they should pay something, maybe not the amount listed in the article though.

Yonnie3

(17,444 posts)
127. I feel there is shared liability among all parties.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:31 AM
Jun 2018

There should be some sort of settlement meeting where all pony up.

I have worked hundreds of wedding parties in many different venues providing a sound system for bands. Too many parties were in museums and historic houses. These spaces are incredibly ill suited for such a party. In many cases we believe a mother picked the space for esthetics and the couple picked the band for a hard party, hence the mismatch.

We have a saying, "A space is not always a music venue."

We realize there will be drunks, children etc. We expect drunks falling on equipment, kids messing with gear, complaints of turn it up, turn it down (at the same time), drink spills and so on. We select and use gear that doesn't easily tip over or get easily damaged. We plan for reality, unlike many of the venues

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
128. I feel sorry for the kid
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:33 AM
Jun 2018

because he has piss poor parents.

How dare they take a 5 year old toddler out in public and not have control of him at all times!

In response, the mother said, “My children are well-supervised"<-----Total lie, I wonder if these people are Red Hats?

Pay up idiots!

Bettie

(16,111 posts)
131. A couple of things
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:38 AM
Jun 2018

1. The top should have been secured so it didn't fall off the rest of the statue.

2. If it is that valuable, they should have had some ropes like they did on the sides of the piece to the right of it.

3. Seems like a fragile, extremely expensive piece shouldn't be in an area where there are often large groups of people without, at very least a barrier around it.

4. Even well-behaved children aren't perfect. Adults are also not perfect. This could easily have happened in a number of other ways and I'm betting people wouldn't be declaring that all children are brats or doing the "when I was a kid, no one ever acted like a kid, we stood at attention like tiny adult soldiers 24/7!" had an adult managed to knock the hideous thing over.

riverwalker

(8,694 posts)
134. It's obviously a sculpture
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:45 AM
Jun 2018

And a five year old should know enough not to climb on a sculpture no matter where it is, museum, community center, park, zoo or shopping mall, all have sculptures.

ck4829

(35,077 posts)
140. You can bill people for destroying their stuff? Man, we better hope Iraq, Guatemala, El Salvador,
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 11:56 AM
Jun 2018

Chile, Nicaragua, etc. never learn about this concept.

haele

(12,660 posts)
146. I see why the statue may have been attractive to a small child.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:20 PM
Jun 2018

It looks like some of the cement mosaic climbing structures that have been installed in a lot of community play areas, typically on those rubber mat surfaces for injury protection. My youngest grandchild runs to them constantly, she loves climbing on them.

It doesn't excuse either the kid or the community center for displaying such an object out in the open - where maybe someone could have been accidentally knocked into it moving through a nearby crowd.
Why wasn't it enclosed in a case? If you didn't want someone to touch it or anything to happen to something that delicate, a $200 or so glass case would have been the answer up front.

Haele

 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
147. Parental failure
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:20 PM
Jun 2018

And like most parents I know, quick to externalize blame and not take ownership for their child's actions.

Skidmore

(37,364 posts)
150. SMH
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:30 PM
Jun 2018

over the amount of angst this thread has generated when on our border there are children going to sleep not knowing why they are without their parents. Let's get a grip. Whole lot of stupid choices can be spread around there. Even when taught good behavior, small children behave carelessly. In the grand scheme of things today, this is a blip and will be sorted out between the parties over money.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
166. Hah!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:59 PM
Jun 2018

I really think these type threads are getting so much attention because we are all so sick of having to post on the precarious nature of our nation.

It is somewhat refreshing to fight about what in the end is a trivial matter!

avebury

(10,952 posts)
163. As much as people want to debate the appropriateness
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 12:51 PM
Jun 2018

of displaying the piece at the Community Center and who was in the wrong, the child was in fact responsible for what happened. As it was a minor child, the parent are responsible for their child's actions. It is totally normal for an Insurance Company to look for the the person/persons responsible for damaging the item that they insured. They pay out the claim and then look to recoup their costs. Like it or not, that is life.

I grew up in an era where parents drilled into their children's heads how to behave in public. I would never have dreamed of running around in an out of control manner (nor would the any of the kids I grew up with). There are some great parents out there who watch their children like hawks but there are also parents out there who don't and those are the parents who will blame everybody else but themselves (or their children) when incidents like this happen.

If the parents only brought one child and both parents attended the wedding then there is no excuse for them allowing the child out of their sight since you have a 2:1 ratio. Knocking over an expensive sculpture is not the only danger children face in this time and place.

It is too bad that the bride and groom didn't hold a child free wedding.

Rorey

(8,445 posts)
169. What is the point of insurance?
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:07 PM
Jun 2018

I would think that it's to cover accidents.

The fact is, insurance companies will do everything they can to get out of paying a claim. This needs to go to court. I think the insurance company will lose.

Bettie

(16,111 posts)
384. Yep, that about covers it
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 08:19 AM
Jun 2018

Insurance Companies are in the business of, well, insuring things.

They collect a whole lot of money, but when it comes to paying out, they usually will find a way to weasel out of it.

Which begs the question: why even bother with insurance, if the company you're paying won't hold up their end of the bargain?

d_r

(6,907 posts)
170. It is a wonder
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 01:12 PM
Jun 2018

that the child didn't get hurt from that thing falling on him. Negligence from the community center.

benld74

(9,904 posts)
183. This is BS!!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 02:17 PM
Jun 2018

Anything in loan
Should be properly secured
This is fault
Of those showing the piece

It’s NOT

The kid’s fault

It’s NOT

The kid’s family’s fault

So stop saying the kid should have been leashed
Like a pet
Stop saying
When I wanna a kid


Think people

Locrian

(4,522 posts)
258. yep
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 09:20 AM
Jun 2018

The parents are evil and negligent but somehow it's ok and *not* negligent for a $132,000 statue to be unsecured, tippy, and un-watched?

Rorey

(8,445 posts)
392. Reminds me of my mother-in-law
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 03:15 PM
Jun 2018

Every year at Christmastime she displayed her Three Kings in a high-traffic and unstable place. Every year there would be damage because when you have a house full of people things happen. Every year she'd play the "Woe is me" card. I quit caring about it early on.

The same went for her complaining about kids spilling a drink in her downstairs (basement) family room and staining the carpet. She'd banish the kids downstairs and the adults would be upstairs. And she'd give them red Kool-aid to drink (!!!) Gosh, what could go wrong???

Now I have my own grandchildren. I've always had a few "Grandma's House Rules", but sometimes things happen. Lessons are learned and life goes on. (My husband is the one who will invariably spill something or scratch something. And then like a little kid he'll deny it. )

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
199. Then when he becomes a teen, he can do this
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:12 PM
Jun 2018
https://weather.com/news/news/2018-06-15-vandals-destroy-brimham-rocks-england

320-Million-Year-Old Rock Formation Destroyed by Vandals in England

‘Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty’ Destroyed in Seconds by Teens
But that was only part of what vandals did to Ice Age relic
SEE MORE
 

Devil Child

(2,728 posts)
203. How dare you blame that child!
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:43 PM
Jun 2018

The park should've put up a sign, a fence, or bolted those rocks down!

They could have been hurt!

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
218. I hope the courts fine them and make
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:09 PM
Jun 2018

them work in the parks for 5 years cleaning shit like this off rocks and trails and trees and what ever the brats want to destroy.

cbdo2007

(9,213 posts)
200. They should sue the community center for negligence...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:33 PM
Jun 2018

They should have put ropes around it to protect people from the statue falling and should have posted signs.

You can't put frafile art in a public space and hope it gets broken so you can get a big insurance payoit...that's not how it works. Sounds like insurance fraud and an accident waiting to happen.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
227. Yes the dimwits here
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:39 PM
Jun 2018

Are whoever thought it was a good idea to place a delicate and expensive art work in a place that would hold weddings.

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
204. It will be a war between the insurance companies.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:45 PM
Jun 2018

Their homeowners versus the city. Watch this to get reconciled at a much lower price.

Liability has not been established. And, children under 7 can't be guilty of negligence under the law.

If a five-year old can pull it off the column, there is a lot of negligence on the part of the exhibitors.

LiberalFighter

(50,953 posts)
205. My take on it is that the mother was at fault.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:52 PM
Jun 2018

If she can't keep an eye on her child to keep him out of trouble then she should not have brought him to the wedding. If that sculpture had managed to knock something else over and killed him she would be responsible for his death. Not the community center or anyone else.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
314. This thing had been for sale with NO TAKERS. The price tag was a WISH by the artist,
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:29 PM
Jun 2018

nothing more.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
209. Imagine this. Two adults are talking. One has her back...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 03:58 PM
Jun 2018

... to the sculpture. The other accidentally spills her plate of cake on the first one's dress. The first one jumps back and knocks over the sculpture. Who should have been supervising? I'd say the facilities manager at the community center that allowed the sculpture to be displayed in such a vulnerable way.

All of this self-righteousness based on the assumption that there are no accidents in our perfect world, only blameworthy incidents, makes me tired.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
220. The kid didn't jump back and accidentally knock over the sculpture.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:16 PM
Jun 2018

He was deliberately climbing it for the better part of a minute before it fell over with the parents nowhere in sight.

That's not an accident. It is negligence.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
230. Negligence causes accidents
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:45 PM
Jun 2018

There is not a distinction. Acts are intentional or negligent and the result of negligence is called an accident.

liberalmuse

(18,672 posts)
215. This is common sense.
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:06 PM
Jun 2018

If you are insuring a $132k sculpture, and that sculpture is being displayed anywhere where kids are going to be, you take measures to make sure it is well-protected. I see the parents winning this one.

Stinky The Clown

(67,808 posts)
217. This is ENTIRELY on the Community Center
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 04:09 PM
Jun 2018

100% THEIR negligence.

If the artwork was that valuable, and on loan to them, they had an obligation to protect it. A person (kid or adult) knocking into it was foreseeable. True enough, the kid did more than accidentally knock into it. But if the Community Center did what they SHOULD have done to protect it. the kid would never have had the opportunity.

Sorry Mr. Insurance Company, but your insured is at fault. And so are you for not insisting that such on-loan treasures are protected.

As to the kid . . . . . I'd like to buy him an ice cream to make him feel better and let him go home with Mom and relax.

mokawanis

(4,443 posts)
222. The parents should hire an attorney
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 05:49 PM
Jun 2018

who can then, in lawyer-speak, tell the insurance company to take a flying fuck at a rolling donut. The community center failed to properly secure the piece and should take the blame for any damages. It's not the kid's fault and it's not the parent's fault.

MountCleaners

(1,148 posts)
231. OK, I'll say it...
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:50 PM
Jun 2018

As someone who was in art and design school, I know that instructors will take students to task for poor construction. I was told repeatedly that while your concept might be lovely, it has to be solidly constructed. Seriously. I don't respect the artist for making something where the top can be knocked off by a child that easily. Art isn't just about someone's "vision" or "expression" - that's a romantic notion that lay people have about art - it's also about skills and execution. Otherwise someone could just do the same thing with chicken wire.

233. California law limits a parent's liability to $25,000
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 07:52 PM
Jun 2018

Any act of willful misconduct of a minor which results in injury or death to another person or in any injury to the property of another shall be imputed to the parent or guardian having custody and control of the minor for all purposes of civil damages, and the parent or guardian having custody and control shall be jointly and severally liable with the minor for any damages resulting from the willful misconduct.

Subject to the provisions of subdivision (c), the joint and several liability of the parent or guardian having custody and control of a minor under this subdivision shall not exceed twenty-five thousand dollars ($ 25,000) for each tort of the minor, and in the case of injury to a person, imputed liability shall be further limited to medical, dental and hospital expenses incurred by the injured person, not to exceed twenty-five thousand dollars ($ 25,000). The liability imposed by this section is in addition to any liability now imposed by law.

See Cal. Civ. Code § 1714.1(a) (2005).

I don't know if her state has a similar statute, but it definitely has one less statue.

kcr

(15,317 posts)
238. If the kid had torched that thing with an Elon Musk flamethrower, I'd still be on his side
Sat Jun 16, 2018, 09:55 PM
Jun 2018

it should have died in a fire. He's a hero.

Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

Response to Demovictory9 (Original post)

MFM008

(19,818 posts)
253. What my parents would have done
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:23 AM
Jun 2018

To one of us for touching ANYTHING when we were out kept us kids in line.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
257. Which respondents are parents, and which not?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:15 AM
Jun 2018

I don't have the patience to look, and you can't always tell, of course, but I wonder how many of the "parents should keep a close watch on their kids" respondents are parents themselves? For sure a lot weren't.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
268. I have to wonder how many of the people railing on the parents
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 10:45 AM
Jun 2018

not adequately supervising the children, are the same people who, on other threads, describe their own childhoods during which they spent huge amounts of time unsupervised and got into all kinds of mischief.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
282. A few I think were disciplined as kids
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:19 AM
Jun 2018

for breaking something, and still feel the sting of that. But then the age is relevant. If you break something at 8 or more, it is worth teaching the kid about it. At 5, not so much. That kid doesn't get it yet and at that age, you are just only starting to realize there is a world out there which is not your family.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
325. Parent here. My take is, my wife and I carefully scrutinize where we take our youngest who is 3
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:01 PM
Jun 2018

We try to only take her places that are appropriate for her. When we take her to those places we let down our guard somewhat. A community center definitely fits the bill. Our expectation would be that a community center is hardened against kids causing damage to anything there and also kid-proofed so our little one wouldn’t be hurt. We’re still pretty protective but not quite the same as if we found ourselves somewhere that is not aimed at having children.

This OP and thread has made me more nervous about taking our child out. Perhaps now, in a similar situation I would call the venue in advance and ask them if they have properly secured the environment.

If I was on the jury I would side with the parents.

dsc

(52,163 posts)
261. I can see there being comparative negligence but the parents are mostly at fault here
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 09:59 AM
Jun 2018

This child was utterly unsupervised. He climbed on the piece and broke it. Depending upon how vulnerable this piece was I could see putting say 20% of the negligence upon the center but the rest is the parents. Why they think it is OK to have their child utterly unsupervised is beyond me.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
284. I wouldn't call him unsupervised
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 11:20 AM
Jun 2018

They were there.

I recall being in church after church running around the building while my parents chit chatted and socialized. We didn't happen to break anything - there was nothing there to break really.

dsc

(52,163 posts)
296. she was in neither ear or eye shot
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 12:15 PM
Jun 2018

that isn't supervision. I am charged in my class when I teach if I leave the room and can't see them or hear them and something happens I am going to be blamed, righteously for not supervising them.

dsc

(52,163 posts)
302. He would have been in either pre school or kindergarden given his age
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 02:52 PM
Jun 2018

and those rooms have self contained bathrooms so no he wouldn't be out of ear shot in the bathroom.

meadowlander

(4,399 posts)
304. Not kindergarteners.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 02:59 PM
Jun 2018

I was a substitute teachers and all the kindergarten classes I taught had classroom aides who would take the kids to the bathroom when they needed to go.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
306. My second day in kindergarten I walked the three blocks...
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:05 PM
Jun 2018

... to school by myself. On my daughter's second day in kindergarten, she and her friend walked the half mile to school by themselves.

We've gone overboard in thinking we need to/can control everything.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
342. It might be reasonable for teacher of a class
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 05:06 PM
Jun 2018

This is a different venue with different things foreseeable and different conditions. If something happened to the kids in the class, it would not be destroying expensive artwork. I would bet you and the school know better than to put a breakable artwork in the classroom.

dsc

(52,163 posts)
367. because neither parent ran into the room when the sculpture fell
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 09:27 PM
Jun 2018

Thus one can assume they couldn't hear him.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
356. The mother briefly turned her back on the child while she said goodbye to the family
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:52 PM
Jun 2018

of the bride, after a wedding reception.

I don't know where this 'utterly unsupervised" comes from. Show me a parent who has never turned her back briefly on her child, and I'll show you a liar.

dsc

(52,163 posts)
357. from the video
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:28 PM
Jun 2018

the kid is out of ear and eye shot of his parents. If they couldn't mind him maybe they should have left him at home.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
324. This was a community center. How would the child know this was ART, not a TOY?
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:59 PM
Jun 2018

It might look like art to most adults, but it could look like a toy or a climbing structure to a small child. And it wasn't even secured in place.

It's lucky the child wasn't seriously hurt. The community center could have faced a much greater liability in that case.

And the idea that this thing was worth $130K was just the artist's wishful thinking. He had had it on sale with NO TAKERS. Art is only worth what someone will pay for it, not what the artist dreams for.

BannonsLiver

(16,398 posts)
305. I feel for everyone involved
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:03 PM
Jun 2018

I’m sure the kid was scared out of his wits to have broken something like that and I feel for the parents who have to be stressed out about their financial future, and for the artist who lost a piece.

To me the definitive case on stuff like this is with harambe where lousy, inattentive parents let their little hellion climb into an enclosure that led to the death of a confused animal. That’s bad parenting 101.

Baitball Blogger

(46,743 posts)
310. Point of order: That was more than a "touch."
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:08 PM
Jun 2018

Looks like the kid was intentionally trying to bring it down.

Not arguing that precautions should have been taken on everyone's side.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
348. Doesn't matter. A kid could deliberately jump in a neighbor's pool
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:31 PM
Jun 2018

and if he drowned, the parents could win a case against the owners of the pool for not fencing it off.

There's something called an attractive nuisance -- and when you have one, you don't get to blame the kid who got attracted to it.

cvoogt

(949 posts)
311. I am disturbed by the cild-blaming on this thread.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:15 PM
Jun 2018

The kid could have been seriously injured by this sculpture. Thank goodness the kid is OK. This is a community center and the piece should have been properly secured, plain and simple. Such a place has an obligation to be safe for children.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
326. Me, too. I hope the parents find a good lawyer who puts this case away quickly.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:01 PM
Jun 2018

Their own insurance might pay for that.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
337. You know, most people don't really remember being five years old.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:46 PM
Jun 2018

I think some of these people are remembering how they behaved and were disciplined when they were significantly older than this child is.

cvoogt

(949 posts)
347. That may be part of it
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:30 PM
Jun 2018

.. those same people seem to have little regard for the fact that the child could have been seriously injured. The community center's at fault for not securing the damn thing, and the insurance company's just doing what insurance companies do.

dsc

(52,163 posts)
369. we are not blaming the child we are blaming his parents
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 09:34 PM
Jun 2018

He wasn't being supervised which is what parents are supposed to do. I never cease to be amazed at the rank entitlement of some parents. If you decide to take a young child somewhere then you should watch him or her. The kid is blameless here but the parents are full of blame.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
315. This thing was an "attractive nuisance," a hazard in a COMMUNITY CENTER, not an art museum.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 03:33 PM
Jun 2018

If the child had been injured, the parents could have sued the community center for having an unsecured, dangerous object in a place children -- who are welcome at a community center -- could access it.

And that $130K price tag has no basis in reality. The thing had been offered for sale and no one wanted to buy it. The price tag was just a hope of the artist, who is now hoping to cash in.

This isn't the fault of a child, who was attracted to something in a community center that looked like a toy. It wasn't roped off or signed, so the parents wouldn't have known it wasn't secured. Only the artist and the community center knew that.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
359. If the child had been crushed to death, DUers would laugh and award a "Darwin"
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:35 PM
Jun 2018

I just hope none of these people are actually responsible for a public facility which hosts community events where children are expected.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
363. I doubt that they could have been part of discussions
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 08:56 PM
Jun 2018

on a board about facility safety, or they would know better.

appleannie1943

(1,303 posts)
328. If it does not belong to you DON'T TOUCH IT.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:14 PM
Jun 2018

I raised 7 kids. The first thing I taught them was stay with me. The second thing was "if it doesn't belong to you, keep your hands off". By the age of 5 those two things had sunk in. I swear, some of today's parents think that Barbie and Ken are babysitting staff in superstores. They leave their small kids in the toy department while the grocery shop.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
329. This was a community center during a wedding reception and the mother was saying goodbye
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 04:21 PM
Jun 2018

to the parents of the bride. So she had her back to him. That happens.

It wasn't an art museum and this piece of "art" wasn't cordoned off or signed in any way. And it wasn't secured in place. The child actually hurt his face but no one seems worried about that.

This unsecured piece of "art" -- that could look like a big doll to a child -- was an attractive nuisance, and the community center would have been liable if the child had seriously injured himself. It's the facility's fault for not securing it properly and not at least roping it off.

brooklynite

(94,606 posts)
396. Well, I guess it doesn't count if it's only "art"...
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 04:48 PM
Jun 2018

If it was real art, maybe things would have been different.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
397. Whether it was art or not, it was an unsecured hazard located in a place
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 04:59 PM
Jun 2018

where families attended parties and had other events including children.

It should have been securely installed, and then roped off or cordoned off in some way, and there should have been a sign.

cvoogt

(949 posts)
349. Kids are naturally curious.
Sun Jun 17, 2018, 07:32 PM
Jun 2018

Some kids really can't help themselves, i.e. some kids on the spectrum for example. Not all kids are alike, and not all kids are as easy to raise as some are. I watched the video. I couldn't believe that thing wasn't secured, and am glad the child is OK.

appleannie1943

(1,303 posts)
383. One of mine is special needs. He is 53 with the mental age of 9. Even he learned you can look but
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 07:49 AM
Jun 2018

but don't touch. And believe me, all 7 of my kids are different. But the basic thing you teach them is no matter where we are, you stay with me. That is not just so things don't get broken, it is for the child's safety. That includes community centers.

cvoogt

(949 posts)
387. I know some
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 10:00 AM
Jun 2018

OK, well there are those who have a compulsion to touch every new object they see. As much as parents teach their kids, surely not 100% of children always act as they were taught 100% of the time.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
391. Apparently this is a very new phenomenon.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 03:00 PM
Jun 2018

Small children in generations past always did what they were told, 100% of them, 100% of the time. They certainly never accidentally broke anything that didn't belong to them, ever. It's only in recent years that young children have been observed to accidentally break things.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
408. I know! And in generations past, mothers of 7 children could keep their eyes on
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:21 PM
Jun 2018

all 7 children at the same time!

My poor mother couldn't even manage to watch the 4 of us every single second, but in generations past, 7 was no problem. Wow!

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
400. I refuse to believe that none of your kids ever touched anything they shouldn't have touched
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 05:03 PM
Jun 2018

or that you kept your eyes on all seven of them at all times.

It's just not humanly possible.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
375. Offsetting penalties: parents should be more watchful, but museums should expect these incidents.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 01:05 AM
Jun 2018

Especially with heavy, fragile pieces, because these incidents ARE going to happen.

-Parents, watch your kids carefully, especially in museums or stores dealing in expensive or fragile items.

-Museums and galleries, install heavy or delicate pieces SECURELY with this type of incident in mind. As you can see, it does happen.

All that said, the parents could crowd-fund the expense, at least to take a bite out of it.


Mariana

(14,858 posts)
385. This place is neither a museum or a gallery.
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 09:06 AM
Jun 2018

It's a community center. It's not reasonable to expect to find such a flimsy and unstable sculpture put out in the open in a place like that.

still_one

(92,242 posts)
379. Were there any warning signs not to touch the sculpture? I don't think this is an open and shut
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 01:55 AM
Jun 2018

case at all. It will be between the insurance companies, but if the sculpture was not meant to be touched, and they had no warning signs then shouldn't have proper precautions been taken to secure it whether through a protective fence or barrier?



Meowmee

(5,164 posts)
380. The center
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 02:35 AM
Jun 2018

Is at fault here, the sculpture was not properly secured. They are lucky no one was injured. I doubt the sculpture is really worth or valued at that much. I can’t find anything about the artist except for two works at that center. I believe the insurance is responsible for whatever coverage was agreed on.

ashling

(25,771 posts)
427. It was neglegent of the City to put that artwork on display in a community center
Mon Jun 18, 2018, 06:33 PM
Jun 2018

without adequately securing (display it in a safe place such as behind plexiglass) and insuring the piece (bonding them for the security of the piece)...

The city is at least partly responsible.

Demovictory9

(32,457 posts)
441. and a hug from a kid separates the top from the bottom? artist should have cemented
Tue Jun 19, 2018, 01:05 AM
Jun 2018

the upper body to the bottom skirt. Weight of the bottom would have probably prevented a tip over.

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