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Auggie

(31,177 posts)
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 06:33 AM Aug 2018

Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

Bloomberg/August 5, 2018

Bright and breezy days are becoming a deeper nightmare for utilities struggling to earn a return on traditional power plants.

With wind and solar farms sprouting up in more areas -- and their power getting priority to feed into the grid in many places -- the amount of electricity being generated is outstripping demand during certain hours of the day.

The result: power prices are slipping to zero or even below more often in more jurisdictions. That’s adding to headaches for generators from NRG Energy Inc. in California to RWE AG in Germany and Origin Energy Ltd. in Australia. Once confined to a curiosity for a few hours over windy Christmas holidays, sub-zero cost of electricity is becoming a reality for hundreds of hours in many markets, upending the economics of the business in the process.

“There is no time pattern for having negative prices in Belgium,” said Marleen Vanhecke, an official at the nation’s grid manager, Elia System Operator SA. “This phenomena is mainly determined by high wind generation in Germany and enough import capacity towards Belgium.”

MORE: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-06/negative-prices-in-power-market-as-wind-solar-cut-electricity

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Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid (Original Post) Auggie Aug 2018 OP
"We've got to find a way to KILL clean energy." - KGOP republican$ Achilleaze Aug 2018 #1
Need better storage options exboyfil Aug 2018 #2
EXACTLY! lagomorph777 Aug 2018 #5
I've wondered about using wind pwer on the Great lakes to produce hydrogen. Kaleva Aug 2018 #10
Utilities need a minimum return on investment to maintain the grid NickB79 Aug 2018 #3
I agree. So let's nationalize public utilities. Auggie Aug 2018 #4
Bingo. NickB79 Aug 2018 #6
Nationalize and invest into the grid system. Kaleva Aug 2018 #9
Electricity can become more like cable JCMach1 Aug 2018 #7
If it drives more people off-grid, though, we risk a downward spiral NickB79 Aug 2018 #8

exboyfil

(17,865 posts)
2. Need better storage options
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 06:57 AM
Aug 2018

In my Mechanical Engineering design course in the 1980s we considered water pumps and hydroelectric generators. Inefficiencies get you though as well as having available incline and volume in the necessary locations.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
5. EXACTLY!
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:09 PM
Aug 2018

The US and Canadian power plants at Niagara Falls both use huge reservoirs to buffer demand; they even feature reversible generators.

Other viable storage schemes (at various scales and levels of maturity):

Compressed/insulated air bladders deep underwater

Liquid-electrode batteries (no solid electrodes to wear out; scalable to enormous size using storage tanks)

Flywheels

Molten salts

Kaleva

(36,318 posts)
10. I've wondered about using wind pwer on the Great lakes to produce hydrogen.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 09:43 PM
Aug 2018

Hydrogen that can be stored and burned to run electrical generators.

Just did a google search and there is a wind to hydrogen project.

https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/wind-to-hydrogen.html

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
3. Utilities need a minimum return on investment to maintain the grid
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 07:39 AM
Aug 2018

So that's why this is so concerning. Cheap electricity is great; electricity that's negatively priced too long means the utilities don't have the cash to maintain vital grid infrastructure or enough employees to repair downed lines.

Auggie

(31,177 posts)
4. I agree. So let's nationalize public utilities.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:04 PM
Aug 2018

Why do we need to keep rates artificially high just so shareholders can get a dividend? The public can own their utilities just as it owns the military. Okay — not every municipality or region. But a good many.

It’s a new world. The need for corporate growth via stockholders seems so antiquated and counter- productive now.

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
6. Bingo.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 04:51 PM
Aug 2018

We've let far too many vitally important segments of society be dictated by the free market and it's constant quest for greater profits.

NickB79

(19,257 posts)
8. If it drives more people off-grid, though, we risk a downward spiral
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 09:27 PM
Aug 2018

Cheaper solar panels and Power Walls would erode the customer base and force the utilities to jack up prices on the remaining customers, driving more people to go off-grid, etc, etc.

Just like how people cutting the cord for Netflix and streaming services today is eroding cable's profit margins.

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