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Cyrano

(15,043 posts)
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:48 PM Aug 2018

Time to ask if a Supreme Court Justice can be impeached

At some point, in the not too distant future, the Democratic Party may control the congress and the presidency.

One supreme court seat has been stolen. Dispute that if you want to. But when a president appoints a justice and congress tells him to go fuck himself, and then fills that seat with their preferred cretin, I call that theft.

So, if/when the Democratic Party gains control of the governmental levers of power, should we do something about it? Or should we just do nothing and wait for a right wing justice to retire or die?

30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Time to ask if a Supreme Court Justice can be impeached (Original Post) Cyrano Aug 2018 OP
Are we going to have 67 votes in the Senate ? DemocratSinceBirth Aug 2018 #1
We could always just expand the court JustAnotherGen Aug 2018 #2
Let's do that! oasis Aug 2018 #6
FDR tried it. It was called court-packing and shot down. Cyrano Aug 2018 #11
I don't believe it was 'shot down', but that pecosbob Aug 2018 #25
Two justices saw the handwriting on the wall and changed their votes: dalton99a Aug 2018 #26
Thanks pecosbob Aug 2018 #28
Not a "just," but yes. Like removing a president, Hortensis Aug 2018 #20
Court expansion is the only way to undo the damage dalton99a Aug 2018 #27
It's possible in theory, though it has never happened. unblock Aug 2018 #3
Power is it's own justification. Goresuch isn't going anywere. maxsolomon Aug 2018 #4
It'll never happen wonkwest Aug 2018 #5
And Chase was acquitted. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2018 #7
Yep. It wasn't even close. n/t wonkwest Aug 2018 #8
Expand the court to 11. Appoint two liberal justices to counteract the theft. dawg Aug 2018 #9
What would the charges be against the justice? and which one? aikoaiko Aug 2018 #10
Damn good point. Cyrano Aug 2018 #14
They can be impeached, but you'd have to find criminal wrongdoing marylandblue Aug 2018 #12
Not really Brother Buzz Aug 2018 #19
Yes, that's true, the criminal thing is really just another norm marylandblue Aug 2018 #21
For what? The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2018 #13
What was done to President Obama and Garland must not stand. Greybnk48 Aug 2018 #15
Why not impeach Senator Mitch McConnell instead? dottie66 Aug 2018 #16
Can't impeach a Senator marylandblue Aug 2018 #23
The Question I'd Like To Have Answered Is.... global1 Aug 2018 #17
How can we stop it? PBC_Democrat Aug 2018 #22
Just do away with lifetime-appointments for SCOTUS. DetlefK Aug 2018 #18
"Just"? That would require a Constitutional amendment. The Velveteen Ocelot Aug 2018 #29
So, you're saying the Republican Senate should impeach Ginsburg, Sotomayor and Kagan? brooklynite Aug 2018 #24
I'd like to see something done about it Proud Liberal Dem Aug 2018 #30

JustAnotherGen

(31,834 posts)
2. We could always just expand the court
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:51 PM
Aug 2018

Nothing says that we may only have 9 justices - AND - It has not always been 9 justices. The founding fathers started with 5 or 6 - iirc.

dalton99a

(81,543 posts)
26. Two justices saw the handwriting on the wall and changed their votes:
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:47 PM
Aug 2018
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/roosevelt-announces-court-packing-plan

On February 5, 1937, President Franklin Roosevelt announces a controversial plan to expand the Supreme Court to as many as 15 judges, allegedly to make it more efficient. Critics immediately charged that Roosevelt was trying to “pack” the court and thus neutralize Supreme Court justices hostile to his New Deal.

During the previous two years, the high court had struck down several key pieces of New Deal legislation on the grounds that the laws delegated an unconstitutional amount of authority to the executive branch and the federal government. Flushed with his landslide reelection in 1936, President Roosevelt issued a proposal in February 1937 to provide retirement at full pay for all members of the court over 70. If a justice refused to retire, an “assistant” with full voting rights was to be appointed, thus ensuring Roosevelt a liberal majority. Most Republicans and many Democrats in Congress opposed the so-called “court-packing” plan.

In April, however, before the bill came to a vote in Congress, two Supreme Court justices came over to the liberal side and by a narrow majority upheld as constitutional the National Labor Relations Act and the Social Security Act. The majority opinion acknowledged that the national economy had grown to such a degree that federal regulation and control was now warranted. Roosevelt’s reorganization plan was thus unnecessary, and in July the Senate struck it down by a vote of 70 to 22. Soon after, Roosevelt had the opportunity to nominate his first Supreme Court justice, and by 1942 all but two of the justices were his appointees.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
20. Not a "just," but yes. Like removing a president,
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:27 PM
Aug 2018

political interference of this magnitude would require support from a majority of the people, not just a majority of votes in congress.

But if SCOTUS makes the kind of things those driving this want, such as making funding for our social programs like Social Security and even mandatory public education unconstitutional, they'd have a hard time holding control. Thing is, all these things take at least a few years.

A social scientist once told me the 17ish year gap between Hillary's 1990s attempt at enacting national healthcare and enough public support to rebuild for the next big attempt in the Obama era was the expected period. This while the destitution, suffereing and death of millions that had lead to majority support in the 1990s continued.

dalton99a

(81,543 posts)
27. Court expansion is the only way to undo the damage
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:50 PM
Aug 2018

otherwise a Trump court will continue to exercise veto power over everything Democrats want to do

unblock

(52,277 posts)
3. It's possible in theory, though it has never happened.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:52 PM
Aug 2018

We won't have 67 votes in the senate for a long time.

It would be easier to add two liberal justices to restore the balance, but politically, even that would be a tall order.

maxsolomon

(33,345 posts)
4. Power is it's own justification. Goresuch isn't going anywere.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:53 PM
Aug 2018

Republics will never vote to convict Goresuch in the Senate. If Dems get to 2/3, it will be decades from now, and they won't do it because they believe in the Constitution.

Regardless, there's no need to ask if a SCOTUS Judge can be Impeached. They can.

 

wonkwest

(463 posts)
5. It'll never happen
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:54 PM
Aug 2018

Only one justice has ever been impeached, and it was for pure political reasons (Jefferson going after Justice Chase in 1805).

Since then, it is unthinkable. The reaction of Congress and the people to the impeachment guaranteed judicial independence in our fledgling republic.

First, Democrats would never do this.

Second, if they did, it would be setting a dangerous precedent regarding judicial independence.

Bad idea, all around.

dawg

(10,624 posts)
9. Expand the court to 11. Appoint two liberal justices to counteract the theft.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:58 PM
Aug 2018

Confirm them with 50 votes in the Senate (plus V.P. Castro's tiebreaker).

Cyrano

(15,043 posts)
14. Damn good point.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:02 PM
Aug 2018

i guess the only out is that a justice was "illegally" appointed and confirmed, but I doubt that even that would succeed.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
12. They can be impeached, but you'd have to find criminal wrongdoing
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:59 PM
Aug 2018

And I don't mean theft of a seat, because it was technically legal. McConnell did not violate the law, he simply violated a political norm that had never been violated before. Democracies die because political norms are violated more than because of outright illegal activity.

So, if we get full control back, I'd say our best bet is to violate another norm. Nine justices. Why nine? It wasn't always so, it's just been the norm for a long time. We owe the success of the New Deal to FDR's in part to his threat to violate this norm by packing the court up to 15 members. We can do the same. Get with new liberal program, or else we add two more justices. The Republicans will scream bloody murder. Fuck 'em.

Brother Buzz

(36,449 posts)
19. Not really
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:19 PM
Aug 2018

The only honest answer is that an impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers [it] to be at a given moment in history; conviction results from whatever offense or offenses two-thirds of the other body considers to be sufficiently serious to require removal of the accused from office. - Gerald Ford, April 15, 1970

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
21. Yes, that's true, the criminal thing is really just another norm
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:31 PM
Aug 2018

But not one we should violate at this time, even if we could. Adding justices to the court at least has some precedent.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,783 posts)
13. For what?
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:01 PM
Aug 2018

The justice himself has to have committed some kind of crime or other offense that would meet the definition of "high crimes and misdemeanors." Objecting to the way he was seated or to the substance of his opinions doesn't even come close. Some federal judges have been removed from office but in all cases they had committed actual crimes, usually bribery. Impeaching judges on the basis of political ideology is no way to preserve an independent judiciary or run a democracy.

Greybnk48

(10,168 posts)
15. What was done to President Obama and Garland must not stand.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:03 PM
Aug 2018

It has set a terrible and dangerous partisan precedent and must be somehow corrected. This was the final and most significant catalyst in politicizing a delegitimizing the Supreme Court, along with the revelation that Kennedy is playing ball with the Trump family and the Republicans.

It seems odd to me now in my late 60's that most of us couldn't name more than one or two, maybe three members of the SC until the shit show that was the Clinton impeachment. It's been politicized more and more since then.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
23. Can't impeach a Senator
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:35 PM
Aug 2018

I think he is up for reelection again 2020. Kentucky Democrats, you have your work cut out for you.

global1

(25,261 posts)
17. The Question I'd Like To Have Answered Is....
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:11 PM
Aug 2018

Given all the suspicion around Trump and the Mueller investigation - how can we let Trump make another appointment to SCOTUS until he is either charged or exonerated?

PBC_Democrat

(401 posts)
22. How can we stop it?
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:33 PM
Aug 2018

The President is the President until the moment that he/she is no longer the President.

Our only hope is to get a few of the R senators to not confirm.

Delaying until after the med-terms isn't a good strategy, in my mind, as I'm afraid we're going to lose at least one seat in 2018.

In 2020 I'm very confident that we'll take back the Senate.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
18. Just do away with lifetime-appointments for SCOTUS.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:17 PM
Aug 2018

Make a SCOTUS-term 15-25 years. Longer than 2 presidential terms, but not too long.

Result: A bad judge will eventually be removed all by himself.

brooklynite

(94,657 posts)
24. So, you're saying the Republican Senate should impeach Ginsburg, Sotomayor and Kagan?
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 01:38 PM
Aug 2018

If you're advocating Impeachment for political purposes rather than malfeasance of office, you have no argument when the Republicans do the same.

And FWIW - Impeach still requires 2/3 vote of the Senate. Let us know when you have them lined up.

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,422 posts)
30. I'd like to see something done about it
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 02:02 PM
Aug 2018

but I don't know how to go about it. We definitely need to codify some rules about things like this to avoid a repeat. The Constitution had a procedure that is normally followed to replace SCOTUS Justices but didn't anticipate the level of corruption and obstruction that one party might resort to in order to maintain it's power and control. Maybe Democrats can seek to add a Justice to make up for the one Republicans wrongly took? I feel like there has to be *some* kind of redress for what happened with Garland.

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