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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 04:42 PM Aug 2012

Factcheck.org misleads to defend Romney (updated)

Obama’s ‘Boss’ Baloney

The Obama campaign strikes another low blow with a TV spot accusing Mitt Romney of “personally” approving a notoriously abusive tax-avoidance scheme and suggesting he may have paid “zero” tax. That’s badly misleading.

It wasn’t Romney who was avoiding taxes, it was Marriott Corp. And there’s no evidence to support the ad’s speculation that Romney himself paid no income tax, or that he did something illegal.

The ad opens with an unsupported insinuation that Romney isn’t releasing more federal income tax returns because some would show he didn’t pay any income tax in those years. The narrator asks, “Did Romney pay 10 percent in taxes? Five percent? Zero? We don’t know.” And the narrator might add, “We have no evidence to support what I just said.” But he doesn’t.

<...>

Romney’s refusal to release more than two years’ worth of tax returns — far fewer than most presidential candidates in recent history — leaves an opening for his opponents to speculate about what he may be hiding. And the ad is correct that we don’t know if, prior to 2010, Romney paid less than 13.9 percent of his income in taxes, as he did in 2010. But the fact is, Romney didn’t claim $70 million in fictional losses for himself, and there’s no direct evidence that he used abusive or illegal methods to reduce his own taxes to zero, as this ad strains to imply.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/obamas-boss-baloney/

Romney hasn't released "two years’ worth of tax returns.

Mitt Romney Taxes For 2010 Not Fully Disclosed
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/mitt-romney-taxes-2010_n_1683084.html

Updated to add these points about Factcheck's red herring claims.

The tax scheme didn’t benefit Romney, and the fictional losses were not his. The company involved was Marriott Corp, not Romney or Bain Capital. But the ad gives no hint of this.

The ad doesn't claim Romney made money on the scam. He was the chief auditor so he "personally approved" it as the two articles mentioned.

CNN didn’t report this. Although the ad prominently features the CNN logo as the source of the printed quotes, they are actually the opinions of two outside tax experts with Democratic leanings.

Factcheck attacks the messengers, and then goes on to cite the Bloomberg article. Was it also written by a Democratic donor? Does that negate the fact that Marriott was involved in SOB and Romney was the head auditor?

Marriott isn’t solely responsible for “one of the largest tax avoidance schemes in history.” Viewers may get the mistaken impression that Romney — actually Marriott — is solely to blame for “one of the largest tax avoidance schemes in history.” Not true. It was a strategy used by many taxpayers that resulted in billions in lost revenue.

The ad specifically states that this was "part" of SOB. Get your head out of Romney's ass.

“Avoidance” is not illegal. The casual viewer may miss the important distinction between legal avoidance and illegal fraud or tax evasion. Combining “avoidance” with loaded terms like “scheme” and “notorious” and “scandal” and “fictional losses” further suggests possible tax fraud, but there’s no evidence Romney broke any law.

That's Romney problem, and his actions speak louder than his apologists.

New Obama Ad ‘Son Of Boss’ Pushes Romney On Taxes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021100741

Mitt Romney Started Bain Capital With Money From Families Tied To Death Squads
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014187901

CNN: Did Romney enable Marriott International's abusive tax shelter?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021093850


Edited for clarity and relevance.

12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Factcheck.org misleads to defend Romney (updated) (Original Post) ProSense Aug 2012 OP
To contrast ProSense Aug 2012 #1
Kick! n/t ProSense Aug 2012 #2
It says he has refused to release more than two, not that he has released two. Motown_Johnny Aug 2012 #3
Actually, ProSense Aug 2012 #4
I agree, but that doesn't mean it is a lie. Motown_Johnny Aug 2012 #5
Well, ProSense Aug 2012 #6
I'm not trying to pick a fight here Motown_Johnny Aug 2012 #7
I understand ProSense Aug 2012 #8
Changed the title ProSense Aug 2012 #12
I heard factcheck.org mentioned on the radio yesterday. AtomicKitten Aug 2012 #9
It's like ProSense Aug 2012 #10
CNN: FactCheck.org calls 'low blow' new Obama 'Son of Boss' attack ad ProSense Aug 2012 #11

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
1. To contrast
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 04:48 PM
Aug 2012

Look at the language used in the OP: "The Obama campaign strikes another low blow "

Here is how Factcheck.org treated two blatant and despicable lies by Romney:

Does Obama’s Plan ‘Gut Welfare Reform’?

A Mitt Romney TV ad claims the Obama administration has adopted “a plan to gut welfare reform by dropping work requirements.” The plan does neither of those things.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/does-obamas-plan-gut-welfare-reform/


Obama Not Trying to Curb Military Early Voting

Mitt Romney wrongly suggests the Obama campaign is trying to “undermine” the voting rights of military members through a lawsuit filed in Ohio. The suit seeks to block state legislation that limited early voting times for nonmilitary members; it doesn’t seek to impose restrictions on service members.

http://factcheck.org/2012/08/obama-not-trying-to-curb-military-early-voting/

But Obama's ad is "another low blow" because Factcheck.org says so!

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
3. It says he has refused to release more than two, not that he has released two.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:08 PM
Aug 2012

That bold print statement is accurate.

It could go farther and point out that only McCain released only 2 years of returns, and he lost. It could also go farther and point out that we only have an estimate for his 2011 returns and that some supporting documents for 2010 were not included in the release.

Even so, the way that phrase is worded it is correct.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
4. Actually,
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:13 PM
Aug 2012

"That bold print statement is accurate. "

that bold print: "The casual viewer may miss the important distinction" between refusal to release and has released.

"It could go farther and point out that only McCain released only 2 years of returns, and he lost. It could also go farther and point out that we only have an estimate for his 2011 returns and that some supporting documents for 2010 were not included in the release. "

Given the bullshit straw men they're knocking down, it wasn't accidental.


Also, the statement "far fewer than most presidential candidates in recent history" leaves the impression that Romney has released the returns.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
5. I agree, but that doesn't mean it is a lie.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:17 PM
Aug 2012

It is more of a distortion. Unless you want to get into lies of omission.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
6. Well,
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:21 PM
Aug 2012

"I agree, but that doesn't mean it is a lie."

...if Factcheck can distort an ad to claim it's "another low blow," then I can claim that its willfully misleading claim about Romney's two years' tax return is a lie.

He didn't, and they should have made that clear.

 

Motown_Johnny

(22,308 posts)
7. I'm not trying to pick a fight here
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:23 PM
Aug 2012

I am just pointing out that the way that is phrased it is accurate. Incomplete and misleading, sure, but still not a lie as I define it.

If they had said straight out that he has released two years of returns then that would be a lie.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
8. I understand
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:27 PM
Aug 2012
I'm not trying to pick a fight here

I am just pointing out that the way that is phrased it is accurate. Incomplete and misleading, sure, but still not a lie as I define it.

...what you're saying. The OP is based on the sentiment in my previous comment, and on the entire piece by Factcheck.

Please see the update. Factcheck attributes claims to the ad that it doesn't make and then knock these straw men down to justify calling the ad as "another low blow."


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
12. Changed the title
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 06:23 PM
Aug 2012

to "misleads" instead of "lies" because clearly that's not what Factcheck is doing.

 

AtomicKitten

(46,585 posts)
9. I heard factcheck.org mentioned on the radio yesterday.
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:35 PM
Aug 2012

ClearChannel bought 960 Green and although they've kept Stephanie Miller, Randi Rhodes, and Norman Goldman, the rest is wingnut quackery. I heard them say yesterday that factcheck.org is the mothership of truth, and your post explains why.

Thanks for the facts. It's important to keep this stuff straight.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
10. It's like
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:55 PM
Aug 2012

they fact checked a completely different ad. That's not fact checking, that's an opinion piece.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
11. CNN: FactCheck.org calls 'low blow' new Obama 'Son of Boss' attack ad
Fri Aug 10, 2012, 05:59 PM
Aug 2012
FactCheck.org calls 'low blow' new Obama 'Son of Boss' attack ad

Posted by
CNN's Ashley Killough

(CNN) – An independent fact-checking group, FactCheck.org, claimed Friday that a new Obama campaign ad attacking Mitt Romney over a tax avoidance scandal is "badly misleading."

"The Obama campaign strikes another low blow with a TV spot accusing Mitt Romney of 'personally' approving a notoriously abusive tax-avoidance scheme and suggesting he may have paid 'zero' tax," the FactCheck.org article states. "That's badly misleading."

The spot, released Thursday by the president's re-election campaign, points to an op-ed by two tax experts who claim Romney was involved with the reporting of a $70 million fictional tax loss when he served on the board of Marriott International from 1993 to 1998.

"During that period, Marriott engaged in a series of complex and high-profile maneuvers, including 'Son of Boss,' a notoriously abusive prepackaged tax shelter that investment banks and accounting firms marketed to corporations such as Marriott," states the op-ed, which was published this week on CNN.com.

- more -

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/10/factcheck-org-calls-low-blow-new-obama-son-of-boss-attack-ad/comment-page-1/


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