I can sleep through any company meeting. But pay me for my time.

Did he know that this was a requirement when he took the job?

From the article:

Coleman said he didn't learn about the Bible sessions until after he started working for Dahl. Coleman told The Post that he first asked Dahl if he could schedule appointments or other meetings during the Bible study hour so he wouldn't have to miss work. Dahl's response, Coleman said, was that there was no other option and that Coleman had to be there.

Coleman is not a practicing Christian and told Dahl multiple times that he wasn't comfortable attending the Bible study. In April, Coleman allegedly told Dahl in a phone call that he had a right not to attend the Christian Bible study, at which point he was fired, according to court documents.

They could have included language about how these meetings are a requirement of the job and explain why they are a necessary aspect of the position. As long as they still allowed the employee to practice their own religion freely, I think they could have gotten away with it depending on how they worded it in the employee agreement and if they could show that it was needed to do the job properly.

They're going to have one heck of a time explaining why these meetings are necessary for a painter or any common construction laborer.

I get what you are suggesting and I'm sure I can probably find instances of this being tried in the past. I suspect if I search for them I will find them and find they have not prevailed in court. Forcing someone into a religious exercise as a condition of work is not legal in the country for secular businesses. Even if it is one's professed religion. You cannot force me into practicing my religion on your terms. You cannot dictate the times and places I should practice my religion.

That would be a tough case to make. Certainly the fact that they did not even mention this in the contract or employment agreement tells me they have no leg to stand on here.

i'm a Christian but religion can not be a condition of employment. Unconstitutional

First, let me say Dahl is absolutely in the wrong here. I am an atheist and would be flat out refusing to go to these meetings.

Dahl is a "Second Chance" employer. Here, in Oregon, that means he hires people with felonies and other issues that most every other company would never hire. Basically, Second Chance employers here do something I and many others of us on DU support. They help people with an unfavorable past re-integrate into society. That is critical to keeping people from going back to crime or back to addictive behaviors. It gives people a chance to establish a positive work history and then move on to better things.

Do I want the courts to tell Dahl he cannot make a forced religious exercise a job requirement? Damn right I do!

Do I want him bankrupted and put out of business? No, I don't. If you read my other post in this thread you will see why. I feel Dahl is very much misguided. I don't feel he has the same pious hypocrisy behind him that the Pence's of the world do though.

can choose their own concept of a "higher power". Why shove Christianity down everyone's throat (even though most 12 step programs are based upon Christian principles, there is a lot of leeway)?

It is impossible to read the AA "Big Book" chapter to the agnostic and not conclude the program means the Christian God when it says "Higher Power." This is the program from which all others have been founded. The chapter is entitled "We Agnostics" but is probably only titled that instead of "We Atheists" because of society at the time. It was 1939 and Prohibition had only been recently repealed. Church was still a very, very ingrained part of everyday life. Claiming full-on atheism was really not acceptable.

In my experience, which entails years of attending meetings trying to find one that fits, many of the Twelve-Step meetings are overtly religious. There were many I attended that really turned me off because of their constant Jesus is my higher power and Jesus is what keeps me clean. No, your common sense decision to not mess up your life keeps you clean. That, along with having a meaningful life and prospects for a future. I can go on a lot about addiction and recovery. Twelve-step meetings have their place but they are not the be-all, end-all solution. See the Ted talks and books by Gabor Mate and read the books by Marc Lewis if you are interested.

Dahl must have gotten a better lawyer or his lawyer is taking this more seriously due to all the coverage. In the first article they seemed to double-down on it. Then I read an article where they explained the meetings were actually "activities" at a homeless shelter. While this sounds better, I know of almost no homeless shelter that isn't run by a religious organization. The only ones I know of require people to attend prayer meetings or engage in some sort of religious activity. So they're still forcing religious activity on employees. I have serious doubts these "activities" at the shelter are ones in which people can choose to be free from a specific religion.

This case is particularly interesting to me because we have a very strong recovery community in Oregon. There are Native American programs (NARA) that accept people like Coleman, who is of Native American ancestry. Their recovery programs are far, far different than the typical Twelve-Step based programs. He has every right not want to engage in the "White Man's" God. If I were Native American I'd be pretty damned opposed to the white man's religion even more so than I am as an atheist. Especially given our European conquering of this continent.

Depends on the group, but there is definitely a tendency of most of them to inject the christian religion into every aspect of it. They tell you that you don't have to believe, but the christian god is always implied.

I have a real problem with court-mandated religion-lite.

How you know AA is religion? Its adherents tell you that if it didn't work for you, you must not have done it right.

"The program didn't fail you, you failed the program." is a common refrain. You didn't pray hard enough.

I just thought that if they were going to mandate something, AA would be a less drastic version of bible study. I don't know what the solution it, but I know that it isn't religion for those of us who don't and can't believe in it.

You really hit it on the head.

As an atheist going into AA meetings it I was pretty appalled. It's so much like a Baptist Tent meeting.

There are people sharing their story of how their higher power "saved them."

You didn't work the program hard enough is why you failed.

The ONLY thing I see in the twelve-step meetings that people need in early recovery is the community aspect. The sense of belonging part.

Religious dogma wrapped in anonymized bullshit is still dogma.

They're created, like a virus. Even though Dahl's intentions aren't bad, his religious fervor has driven him to do a bad thing. I get that he isn't intentionally harming people, but if Dahl is bankrupted it will be because he made the choice to refuse to relent on the meetings. This insidious chain has to be broken. Part of their trick is using good works as a hostage, hoping no one will stop them. But they can't be allowed to exploit desperate people. Dahl was likely exploited the same way himself.

I have some personal experience with people like Dahl. I spent 9 months in rehab/recovery. There are some people, not all, in the Twelve-Step movements who find the Christian God/Jesus as their higher power who saved them from whichever addiction they have. They generally traded one obsession for another.

In the cases of the most fervent people (like I suspect Dahl probably is), they have substituted their addiction to some substance (drugs/alcohol/sex) with an addiction to religion. This is very unfortunate for people like Coleman who have other beliefs and don't want to be a Christian. In the world of people like Dahl, Christianity has taken the place of their drug of choice (alcohol is a drug actually). One of the most annoying features of many Christian sects is the adherents are instructed to go out and convert all the other sinners and save them through Jesus. Addicts/Alcoholics are great at focusing on a goal like that. Obsessive behavior is part of addiction.

With addicts in recovery like Dahl, the owner, I have found them to be particularly obsessed with converting everyone else to see things their way. They replaced their obsession with a drug with their obsession for Christ and saving every other addict through Christ.

It can be much more harmful than helpful. They spend all their time devoting themselves to saving others through their version of redemption and don't stop to really look at the underlying issues that caused their substance abuse in the first place. They believe Jesus has lifted their burden. They used to live a drug-centered life and they simply trade that for a "Christ-centered" life.

I don't wish Dahl ill. I am certain he believes he is doing the right thing. As a "Second Chance" employer he is very much helping people with criminal records and past addiction issues find work and re-integrate into society. I think that is great. I think it will be terrible if his company goes out of business and cannot provide those jobs any longer.

I just wish people like Dahl could stop trying to make everyone else live life by their standards. This is common to Republicans, Evangelicals and people like Dahl.

They trade one addiction for the other.

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people".

- Karl Marx

"He used to be fucked up on drugs, now he's fucked up on Jesus."

His dad once said he liked him better when he was drinking.

That decision protected the "freedom" of their own religion. It did not give the right to force it on anyone else.

and it makes me shiver.