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CaliforniaPeggy

(149,712 posts)
Fri Sep 7, 2018, 10:49 PM Sep 2018

When I think about the probable fate of Roe v Wade, my blood boils!

I just saw the segment on the PBS Newshour where they talked to an abortion MD in (I think) N Dakota.

They also talked to several anti-abortion groups. These groups are headed by men.

I cannot stand listening to men holding forth on the sacredness of life when it's carried by a woman. They disregard all her reasons for the abortion and only talk about the new life coming.

These men have no right to interfere with how a woman treats an unwanted pregnancy. They have nothing to say about it, and yet they still hold forth.

We are preparing to enter a very dark period where women's health is under the thumbs of men who think they have the right to tell us how we should live.

I despair for all American women. It will take a huge effort to fight this change state by state.

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When I think about the probable fate of Roe v Wade, my blood boils! (Original Post) CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 OP
From a sign at the Women's March: "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament!" nt Atticus Sep 2018 #1
It's a great sign and it's true. Thanks, Atticus. n/t CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #2
"If men got pregnant, abortion would be offered at Ilsa Sep 2018 #38
The underground clinics are stocking up on pills even as you speak. There have been Nay Sep 2018 #62
same dudes who cry about child support from a one night stand. mopinko Sep 2018 #3
Exactly right! CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #8
If Roe v. Wade is overturned, I think that all men who impregnate women should have smirkymonkey Sep 2018 #20
The hypocrisy is that many of these men will make sure their women have access to abortion..... ProudMNDemocrat Sep 2018 #51
DURec leftstreet Sep 2018 #4
Kavanaugh is against health insur BigmanPigman Sep 2018 #5
Typical male behavior. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #9
To all the ladies Pantagruel Sep 2018 #6
I doubt very much that thinking is what they were doing. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #10
To all the men too lazy or uninspired to vote in 2016. pnwmom Sep 2018 #12
As we now know, there's nothing in the constitution that affects the male body ! ;) OnDoutside Sep 2018 #24
You miss my point Pantagruel Sep 2018 #29
I didn't miss it. You missed mine. pnwmom Sep 2018 #33
Missing points Pantagruel Sep 2018 #34
Start the conversation -- start a thread. SMC22307 Sep 2018 #58
Dont forget to mention the white educated women who voted for onetexan Sep 2018 #52
But thank God, we didn't get Hillary. EffieBlack Sep 2018 #7
ABSOLUTELY! CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #11
I've lost my tolerance for hypocrites and Hortensis Sep 2018 #46
kick and rec Peggy!!!! nt steve2470 Sep 2018 #13
I would like to believe that if R v W is challenged LuckyLib Sep 2018 #14
You and I are of the age where we fought long and hard for legal abortion. dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #15
never in a million years mopinko Sep 2018 #21
The upside... dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #35
What is freaking me out is thinking about Silver Gaia Sep 2018 #16
Book Club Olafjoy Sep 2018 #17
K&R SharonClark Sep 2018 #18
Response to Roe overturned Pantagruel Sep 2018 #30
Morning after drugs would be outlawed. dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #36
just saw this: dixiegrrrrl Sep 2018 #37
K&R Solly Mack Sep 2018 #19
Hear, Hear! Hugin Sep 2018 #22
Aw, thank you! I know it's rare for me to post like this. This topic is close to my heart. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #25
Not allowing women access to abortion is a violation of the 13th Amendment, CrispyQ Sep 2018 #23
I was unaware of this amendment and the arguments that go with it. Thank you for your post. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #27
Even if the pregnant woman would be compelled Ilsa Sep 2018 #39
When we bring this up to SCOTUS again Freddie Sep 2018 #42
TY, I've have said it for 50+ years: Forced Birth is Slavery. stuffmatters Sep 2018 #53
When you take a woman's control over her reproductive cycle away from her, CrispyQ Sep 2018 #54
Just a quibble...The right to own property is the end game. Lars39 Sep 2018 #55
Women as property is part of the end game. -nt CrispyQ Sep 2018 #56
Agreed Lars39 Sep 2018 #59
He who dies with the most toys, still dies. CrispyQ Sep 2018 #60
Good 'toon. Lars39 Sep 2018 #61
Women will take charge of their own bodies. roody Sep 2018 #26
I have read about them, and you're right. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #28
Yes, and medications Freddie Sep 2018 #32
I mentioned developing an underground in another post. Ilsa Sep 2018 #40
Unbelievably infuriating Freddie Sep 2018 #43
It costs them nothing, lets them feel morally superior, allows them to slut shame catbyte Sep 2018 #31
How long do you think it would take? DFW Sep 2018 #41
I don't think it would be quite that fast. Unless the fix is already in. CaliforniaPeggy Sep 2018 #44
When the number of Kowalskis in the Warszawa phone book outnumber the ones in Chicago DFW Sep 2018 #48
It's not just Republican male Catholics. Lionel Mandrake Sep 2018 #45
I was referring to the right wing members of the Court DFW Sep 2018 #47
Torquemada would move to expel Jews and Muslims Lionel Mandrake Sep 2018 #63
Two years ago, I would have found all of that laughable. DFW Sep 2018 #64
Around the same percentage of women think abortion should be illegal as men oberliner Sep 2018 #49
k&r Demovictory9 Sep 2018 #50
Honestly, have republicans thought about the societal costs of outlawing abortion? smirkymonkey Sep 2018 #57
And these are the same men who don't want women on welfare raising these unwanted children. area51 Sep 2018 #65

Ilsa

(61,698 posts)
38. "If men got pregnant, abortion would be offered at
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:40 PM
Sep 2018

every 7-11 and other convenience stores across the country. If it is just the pills, then why not?

We might need to set up an underground supply chain for morning after pills, chemical abortion, and grant money so poorer women can travel to whichever states keep it legal.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
62. The underground clinics are stocking up on pills even as you speak. There have been
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:48 AM
Sep 2018

several articles about it. If RvW is truly overturned, there WILL be alternatives, more alternatives than we had back in the 50's and 60's. The problem has always been those crazy laws that make clinics run through so many hoops that they have to close.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
20. If Roe v. Wade is overturned, I think that all men who impregnate women should have
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 06:17 AM
Sep 2018

to be on the hook financially for the first eighteen years of the child's life. Even if it was just a one night stand. That might change their tune. So many of these republican men are such disgusting hypocrites.

ProudMNDemocrat

(16,793 posts)
51. The hypocrisy is that many of these men will make sure their women have access to abortion.....
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:18 AM
Sep 2018

While denying every other woman the access to even making Contraception ILLEGAL once again as they slash budgets that help people who DO NOT abort.

BigmanPigman

(51,628 posts)
5. Kavanaugh is against health insur
Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:18 PM
Sep 2018

by employers for birth control for their employees but is fine with Viagra being paid for 100% by all health insur.

Barefoot and pregnant...oh, goodie

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,712 posts)
10. I doubt very much that thinking is what they were doing.
Fri Sep 7, 2018, 11:51 PM
Sep 2018

I am at a loss when it comes to explaining those fools.

OnDoutside

(19,972 posts)
24. As we now know, there's nothing in the constitution that affects the male body ! ;)
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:12 AM
Sep 2018

The wider point is that this has been coming for a long time, and being disengaged from what's going on, is why all these advances are now under threat. Maybe this needed to happen for a massive backlash from ordinary decent Americans, who were busy getting on with their lives. At least we hope there is going to a massive backlash.

 

Pantagruel

(2,580 posts)
29. You miss my point
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:47 AM
Sep 2018

I probably should have clarified.
Women, especially those of child bearing age, have a specific, unmistakable dog in this fight, more than men. They should know a GOP win would lead to this and turn out accordingly.

pnwmom

(108,995 posts)
33. I didn't miss it. You missed mine.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 12:09 PM
Sep 2018

If you think men don't have a stake in ending unwanted pregnancies, you are wrong.

 

Pantagruel

(2,580 posts)
34. Missing points
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 12:31 PM
Sep 2018

We all have a stake in reducing unwanted pregnancies but I believe pregnant women have the most to directly lose. That said, why don't we ever discuss the monetary costs to society of adding millions of unwanted children -they're staggering.

onetexan

(13,061 posts)
52. Dont forget to mention the white educated women who voted for
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:24 AM
Sep 2018

You-know-who. They are more complicit than those who didnt vote.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
46. I've lost my tolerance for hypocrites and
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 07:27 PM
Sep 2018

people so lacking in insight that they have no idea what they've done. I'm tired of being afraid. It could have been so incredibly different. It's trauma from 2016, no doubt. I don't trust people who claim goals and values to vote them.

As for Roe v. Wade, we still have a chance. Trump's blabbed that he chose Gorsuch and Kavanaugh to criminalize abortion and said that women "will have to be punished." If people learn enough that Collins and Murkowski's can't maintain "plausible deniability" that they know what is intended...

LuckyLib

(6,820 posts)
14. I would like to believe that if R v W is challenged
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:14 AM
Sep 2018

there will be women in the streets like this country has never seen before. Massive marches on Washington and every state capitol.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
15. You and I are of the age where we fought long and hard for legal abortion.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:21 AM
Sep 2018

Looks like we grossly under estimated the tenacity of the patriarchy.

mopinko

(70,225 posts)
21. never in a million years
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 10:00 AM
Sep 2018

did i think my daughters would still be fighting this shit.
but here we are. the monsters have come out of the closet we thought we had nailed shut.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
35. The upside...
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:12 PM
Sep 2018

Our generation was fighting for safe abortions and birth control that we had never experienced.

The women born after Roe vs. Wade safe abortion and more importantly, birth control, are not going to want a return to the pre-70's days.

Silver Gaia

(4,546 posts)
16. What is freaking me out is thinking about
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:39 AM
Sep 2018

what could happen if Trump goes down, but Pence stays and becomes president... with Kavanaugh on the SC. Republic of Gilead?

Olafjoy

(937 posts)
17. Book Club
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 01:48 AM
Sep 2018

If Roe v Wade is overturned, my book club will begin running a safe, underground abortion clinic. We are health care professional, empty nesters who marched in Washington on January 21st. If Kavanfraud gets confirmed we start ordering supplies. We have been discussing this for a year and a half and are deadly serious. We will never go back.

 

Pantagruel

(2,580 posts)
30. Response to Roe overturned
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:52 AM
Sep 2018

Wouldn't the modern way be making sure "morning after" drugs are cheap and readily available?
A "Book Club " clinic seems so 1950's a response?

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
36. Morning after drugs would be outlawed.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:34 PM
Sep 2018

and as illegal as cocaine.
There are many reasons why esp. young women do not have access to them even today.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
37. just saw this:
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:38 PM
Sep 2018

When a patient arrived this spring at the only abortion clinic in western Arkansas, the doctor had startling news: A new state law had gone into effect, and clinics could no longer perform abortions via medication in the state.
Less than a month later, a judge suspended the law, which is now the focus of a legal fight as Arkansas tries to reinstate it. The fight in Arkansas could help define the looming legal battle over abortion, 45 years after the Supreme Court made it a constitutional right.

There are 14 abortion cases currently before federal appeals courts, including the Arkansas case, and legal experts say any of them could be the first to reach the Supreme Court after Justice Anthony Kennedy’s retirement. Others include a parental consent law in Indiana, a ban on a common second-trimester abortion procedure in Alabama, and a requirement in Kentucky that ultrasounds be displayed and described.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211110384

Hugin

(33,207 posts)
22. Hear, Hear!
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 10:08 AM
Sep 2018

Anything which causes CaliforniaPeggy to post an OP in DU:GD is an abomination to Nature and Man!

CrispyQ

(36,518 posts)
23. Not allowing women access to abortion is a violation of the 13th Amendment,
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 10:40 AM
Sep 2018

I don't know why the pro-choice groups don't use this argument.

The 13th Amendment and Forced Labor

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers

2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth
Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, akoppelman@law.northwestern.edu

I. The basic argument
The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6

Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.

This argument makes available two responses to the standard defense of such prohibitions, the claim that the fetus is a person. The first is that even if this is so, its right to the continued aid of the woman does not follow. As Judith Jarvis Thomson observes, "having a right to life does not guarantee having either a right to be given the use of or a right to be allowed continued use of another person's body -- even if one needs it for life itself."7

Giving fetuses a legal right to the continued use of their mothers' bodies would be precisely what the Thirteenth Amendment forbids.


Man created God to control woman & put himself at the top of the hierarchy of life. But here's the thing. When they put life in a hierarchy like that, their argument of Right to Life just lost its validity because some life has greater rights to life than other life, & of course, they get to decide who!

These men are fucked up, control freak assholes, & the women who vote for them are beyond my understanding.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,712 posts)
27. I was unaware of this amendment and the arguments that go with it. Thank you for your post.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:43 AM
Sep 2018

I also have no idea why the pro-choice groups don't use it.

Ilsa

(61,698 posts)
39. Even if the pregnant woman would be compelled
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:44 PM
Sep 2018

to give up a baby after birth if she didn't want it, during her pregnancy she is compelled to not have any alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, and not perform certain activities, like horseback riding. She is compelled to eat a certain way, take vitamins, have invasive procedures done, etc. A woman really is a slave to a fetus during pregnancy.

Freddie

(9,275 posts)
42. When we bring this up to SCOTUS again
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:02 PM
Sep 2018

And we will, under better circumstances (or after we pack the court) I would like to see our case argued under the 13th amendment rather than the “right to privacy.” And if we ever got the ERA, Sen. Harris’ question will make our point - “how exactly does the government control a man’s body?”

stuffmatters

(2,574 posts)
53. TY, I've have said it for 50+ years: Forced Birth is Slavery.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 06:30 AM
Sep 2018

And these Republican Plantationists (both religiously and politically) are even determined to eliminate women's right/access to birth control.


CrispyQ

(36,518 posts)
54. When you take a woman's control over her reproductive cycle away from her,
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 09:26 AM
Sep 2018

you take away her control over her life. This is what they want. Taking away our vote is the end game, but too many people think they will never go that far.

CrispyQ

(36,518 posts)
60. He who dies with the most toys, still dies.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 11:00 AM
Sep 2018

Think they'll ever learn? "They" being the alpha male types who stomp around this planet thinking they are superior while our species stands on an ecological brink. This is super old but I love it.



Oh look, it's an old white guy.

roody

(10,849 posts)
26. Women will take charge of their own bodies.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:43 AM
Sep 2018

Women in self help groups were practicing menstrual extractions before Roe.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,712 posts)
28. I have read about them, and you're right.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:44 AM
Sep 2018

But there will still be many women who will fall through the cracks.

Freddie

(9,275 posts)
32. Yes, and medications
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 12:02 PM
Sep 2018

Over the internet that weren’t available back in the day.
My fear is for women in wanted pregnancies with fetuses that are diagnosed with problems, fatal or even not fatal but would have a poor quality of life. Or adverse results of genetic testing including Downs. This is normally diagnosed too late for a medical abortion. It’s unbelievably inhumane to force her to give birth against her will in any case. Women should consider an underground network providing transportation and funds to legal states (if there are any).

Ilsa

(61,698 posts)
40. I mentioned developing an underground in another post.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:46 PM
Sep 2018

A lot can get covered, but many women, still, will not have access.

Freddie

(9,275 posts)
43. Unbelievably infuriating
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 03:07 PM
Sep 2018

That we have to even think about that again. That men think they have the right to control our bodies AT ALL.
I have a young granddaughter, and if I’m still here when she’s of childbearing age I will let her know that I will drive her to Canada or do whatever I can if she's in a situation needing to end a pregnancy.

catbyte

(34,454 posts)
31. It costs them nothing, lets them feel morally superior, allows them to slut shame
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 11:57 AM
Sep 2018

and exercise control over women. It's vile.

DFW

(54,437 posts)
41. How long do you think it would take?
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 02:57 PM
Sep 2018

If Kavanaugh is confirmed, some state with a heavily reactionary legislature would immediately draw up and enact some Draconian anti-abortion-rights measure so awful, a legal challenge is inevitable. It fast-tracks to the Supreme Court, where the Republican Male Catholic Mafia Majority upholds the new statute and overturns Roe v.Wade. Shares of companies that manufacture coat hangers jump 15% the next day. The European Union puts a temporary hold on accepting new refugees from Asia and Africa, in order to handle the sudden influx of refugee seekers from the United States.

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,712 posts)
44. I don't think it would be quite that fast. Unless the fix is already in.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 04:24 PM
Sep 2018

But something like that (minus the end, which is too fantastic to be realistic! ) would most likely happen.

This outcome is almost too dreadful to contemplate.

DFW

(54,437 posts)
48. When the number of Kowalskis in the Warszawa phone book outnumber the ones in Chicago
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:41 AM
Sep 2018

You'll know for sure that the tide has reversed in earnest.

Lionel Mandrake

(4,076 posts)
45. It's not just Republican male Catholics.
Sat Sep 8, 2018, 05:51 PM
Sep 2018

Conservatives have adopted an anti-Roe-v.-Wade agenda to secure the support, not only of Republican Catholics, but also of 'born-again' Protestants, almost all of whom are Republicans. It seems likely that Kavanaugh will be confirmed, which will ensure a long-term Conservative stranglehold on the Supreme Court. Roe v. Wade will probably be overturned. How's that for a shitty scenario?

DFW

(54,437 posts)
47. I was referring to the right wing members of the Court
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:38 AM
Sep 2018

Exclusive dogmatic male right wing Catholics. Might as well be a chapter of Opus Dei. Come to think of it, that may not be as far-fetched as it was intended to be. Unfortunately. This is quickly turning into the century of the control freak, which we had hoped went out with the demise of Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Nixon, Franco and Mao. Now they want Tomás de Torquemada on the Supreme Court.

Lionel Mandrake

(4,076 posts)
63. Torquemada would move to expel Jews and Muslims
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:18 PM
Sep 2018

from the USA. This would require a really creative interpretation of the Constitution. We could also expect a ruling that burning a heretic at the stake is not cruel and unusual punishment.

DFW

(54,437 posts)
64. Two years ago, I would have found all of that laughable.
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 01:28 PM
Sep 2018

The thought of Kavanaugh, Thomas, Alito, Roberts and Gorsuch inventing a constitutional precedent for removing Ginsburg, Kagan and Breyer from the Court byforce is no longer one I find inconceivable.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
49. Around the same percentage of women think abortion should be illegal as men
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 05:54 AM
Sep 2018

It's about 40 percent of men and 40 percent of women who hold that position.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
57. Honestly, have republicans thought about the societal costs of outlawing abortion?
Sun Sep 9, 2018, 10:01 AM
Sep 2018

How do they plan to handle all of these unwanted children? There won't be enough families who will want to adopt, what are they going to do with the overflow? Too many of these women will be unable to afford to take care of another baby. Are they going to subsidize them? I think we all know the answer to that. As usual, they are short-sighted and cruel. They don't care what will happen to the mother and live babies, they just want to punish women for having sex.

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