General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhen I think about the probable fate of Roe v Wade, my blood boils!
I just saw the segment on the PBS Newshour where they talked to an abortion MD in (I think) N Dakota.
They also talked to several anti-abortion groups. These groups are headed by men.
I cannot stand listening to men holding forth on the sacredness of life when it's carried by a woman. They disregard all her reasons for the abortion and only talk about the new life coming.
These men have no right to interfere with how a woman treats an unwanted pregnancy. They have nothing to say about it, and yet they still hold forth.
We are preparing to enter a very dark period where women's health is under the thumbs of men who think they have the right to tell us how we should live.
I despair for all American women. It will take a huge effort to fight this change state by state.
Atticus
(15,124 posts)CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)Ilsa
(61,698 posts)every 7-11 and other convenience stores across the country. If it is just the pills, then why not?
We might need to set up an underground supply chain for morning after pills, chemical abortion, and grant money so poorer women can travel to whichever states keep it legal.
Nay
(12,051 posts)several articles about it. If RvW is truly overturned, there WILL be alternatives, more alternatives than we had back in the 50's and 60's. The problem has always been those crazy laws that make clinics run through so many hoops that they have to close.
mopinko
(70,225 posts)fuck those dudes.
hard.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)Hypocrites, all of them.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)to be on the hook financially for the first eighteen years of the child's life. Even if it was just a one night stand. That might change their tune. So many of these republican men are such disgusting hypocrites.
ProudMNDemocrat
(16,793 posts)While denying every other woman the access to even making Contraception ILLEGAL once again as they slash budgets that help people who DO NOT abort.
leftstreet
(36,113 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,628 posts)by employers for birth control for their employees but is fine with Viagra being paid for 100% by all health insur.
Barefoot and pregnant...oh, goodie
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)too lazy or uninspired to vote in 2016......
What were you thinking?
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)I am at a loss when it comes to explaining those fools.
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)What were you thinking?
OnDoutside
(19,972 posts)The wider point is that this has been coming for a long time, and being disengaged from what's going on, is why all these advances are now under threat. Maybe this needed to happen for a massive backlash from ordinary decent Americans, who were busy getting on with their lives. At least we hope there is going to a massive backlash.
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)I probably should have clarified.
Women, especially those of child bearing age, have a specific, unmistakable dog in this fight, more than men. They should know a GOP win would lead to this and turn out accordingly.
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)If you think men don't have a stake in ending unwanted pregnancies, you are wrong.
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)We all have a stake in reducing unwanted pregnancies but I believe pregnant women have the most to directly lose. That said, why don't we ever discuss the monetary costs to society of adding millions of unwanted children -they're staggering.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Don't wait for others to do it.
onetexan
(13,061 posts)You-know-who. They are more complicit than those who didnt vote.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)people so lacking in insight that they have no idea what they've done. I'm tired of being afraid. It could have been so incredibly different. It's trauma from 2016, no doubt. I don't trust people who claim goals and values to vote them.
As for Roe v. Wade, we still have a chance. Trump's blabbed that he chose Gorsuch and Kavanaugh to criminalize abortion and said that women "will have to be punished." If people learn enough that Collins and Murkowski's can't maintain "plausible deniability" that they know what is intended...
steve2470
(37,457 posts)LuckyLib
(6,820 posts)there will be women in the streets like this country has never seen before. Massive marches on Washington and every state capitol.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Looks like we grossly under estimated the tenacity of the patriarchy.
mopinko
(70,225 posts)did i think my daughters would still be fighting this shit.
but here we are. the monsters have come out of the closet we thought we had nailed shut.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Our generation was fighting for safe abortions and birth control that we had never experienced.
The women born after Roe vs. Wade safe abortion and more importantly, birth control, are not going to want a return to the pre-70's days.
Silver Gaia
(4,546 posts)what could happen if Trump goes down, but Pence stays and becomes president... with Kavanaugh on the SC. Republic of Gilead?
Olafjoy
(937 posts)If Roe v Wade is overturned, my book club will begin running a safe, underground abortion clinic. We are health care professional, empty nesters who marched in Washington on January 21st. If Kavanfraud gets confirmed we start ordering supplies. We have been discussing this for a year and a half and are deadly serious. We will never go back.
Pantagruel
(2,580 posts)Wouldn't the modern way be making sure "morning after" drugs are cheap and readily available?
A "Book Club " clinic seems so 1950's a response?
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)and as illegal as cocaine.
There are many reasons why esp. young women do not have access to them even today.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Less than a month later, a judge suspended the law, which is now the focus of a legal fight as Arkansas tries to reinstate it. The fight in Arkansas could help define the looming legal battle over abortion, 45 years after the Supreme Court made it a constitutional right.
There are 14 abortion cases currently before federal appeals courts, including the Arkansas case, and legal experts say any of them could be the first to reach the Supreme Court after Justice Anthony Kennedys retirement. Others include a parental consent law in Indiana, a ban on a common second-trimester abortion procedure in Alabama, and a requirement in Kentucky that ultrasounds be displayed and described.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211110384
Solly Mack
(90,787 posts)Hugin
(33,207 posts)Anything which causes CaliforniaPeggy to post an OP in DU:GD is an abomination to Nature and Man!
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)CrispyQ
(36,518 posts)I don't know why the pro-choice groups don't use this argument.
https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1031&context=facultyworkingpapers
2010
Forced Labor, Revisited: The Thirteenth
Amendment and Abortion
Andrew Koppelman
Northwestern University School of Law, akoppelman@law.northwestern.edu
I. The basic argument
The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows:
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
2. Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
My claim is that the amendment is violated by laws that prohibit abortion. When women are compelled to carry and bear children, they are subjected to "involuntary servitude" in violation of the amendment. Abortion prohibitions violate the Amendment's guarantee of personal liberty, because forced pregnancy and childbirth, by compelling the woman to serve the fetus, creates "that control by which the personal service of one man [sic] is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit which is the essence of involuntary servitude."6
Such laws violate the amendment's guarantee of equality, because forcing women to be mothers makes them into a servant caste, a group which, by virtue of a status of birth, is held subject to a special duty to serve others and not themselves.
This argument makes available two responses to the standard defense of such prohibitions, the claim that the fetus is a person. The first is that even if this is so, its right to the continued aid of the woman does not follow. As Judith Jarvis Thomson observes, "having a right to life does not guarantee having either a right to be given the use of or a right to be allowed continued use of another person's body -- even if one needs it for life itself."7
Giving fetuses a legal right to the continued use of their mothers' bodies would be precisely what the Thirteenth Amendment forbids.
Man created God to control woman & put himself at the top of the hierarchy of life. But here's the thing. When they put life in a hierarchy like that, their argument of Right to Life just lost its validity because some life has greater rights to life than other life, & of course, they get to decide who!
These men are fucked up, control freak assholes, & the women who vote for them are beyond my understanding.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)I also have no idea why the pro-choice groups don't use it.
Ilsa
(61,698 posts)to give up a baby after birth if she didn't want it, during her pregnancy she is compelled to not have any alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, and not perform certain activities, like horseback riding. She is compelled to eat a certain way, take vitamins, have invasive procedures done, etc. A woman really is a slave to a fetus during pregnancy.
Freddie
(9,275 posts)And we will, under better circumstances (or after we pack the court) I would like to see our case argued under the 13th amendment rather than the right to privacy. And if we ever got the ERA, Sen. Harris question will make our point - how exactly does the government control a mans body?
stuffmatters
(2,574 posts)And these Republican Plantationists (both religiously and politically) are even determined to eliminate women's right/access to birth control.
CrispyQ
(36,518 posts)you take away her control over her life. This is what they want. Taking away our vote is the end game, but too many people think they will never go that far.
Lars39
(26,116 posts)CrispyQ
(36,518 posts)CrispyQ
(36,518 posts)Think they'll ever learn? "They" being the alpha male types who stomp around this planet thinking they are superior while our species stands on an ecological brink. This is super old but I love it.
Oh look, it's an old white guy.
Lars39
(26,116 posts)It usually is.
roody
(10,849 posts)Women in self help groups were practicing menstrual extractions before Roe.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)But there will still be many women who will fall through the cracks.
Freddie
(9,275 posts)Over the internet that werent available back in the day.
My fear is for women in wanted pregnancies with fetuses that are diagnosed with problems, fatal or even not fatal but would have a poor quality of life. Or adverse results of genetic testing including Downs. This is normally diagnosed too late for a medical abortion. Its unbelievably inhumane to force her to give birth against her will in any case. Women should consider an underground network providing transportation and funds to legal states (if there are any).
Ilsa
(61,698 posts)A lot can get covered, but many women, still, will not have access.
Freddie
(9,275 posts)That we have to even think about that again. That men think they have the right to control our bodies AT ALL.
I have a young granddaughter, and if Im still here when shes of childbearing age I will let her know that I will drive her to Canada or do whatever I can if she's in a situation needing to end a pregnancy.
catbyte
(34,454 posts)and exercise control over women. It's vile.
DFW
(54,437 posts)If Kavanaugh is confirmed, some state with a heavily reactionary legislature would immediately draw up and enact some Draconian anti-abortion-rights measure so awful, a legal challenge is inevitable. It fast-tracks to the Supreme Court, where the Republican Male Catholic Mafia Majority upholds the new statute and overturns Roe v.Wade. Shares of companies that manufacture coat hangers jump 15% the next day. The European Union puts a temporary hold on accepting new refugees from Asia and Africa, in order to handle the sudden influx of refugee seekers from the United States.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,712 posts)But something like that (minus the end, which is too fantastic to be realistic! ) would most likely happen.
This outcome is almost too dreadful to contemplate.
DFW
(54,437 posts)You'll know for sure that the tide has reversed in earnest.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)Conservatives have adopted an anti-Roe-v.-Wade agenda to secure the support, not only of Republican Catholics, but also of 'born-again' Protestants, almost all of whom are Republicans. It seems likely that Kavanaugh will be confirmed, which will ensure a long-term Conservative stranglehold on the Supreme Court. Roe v. Wade will probably be overturned. How's that for a shitty scenario?
DFW
(54,437 posts)Exclusive dogmatic male right wing Catholics. Might as well be a chapter of Opus Dei. Come to think of it, that may not be as far-fetched as it was intended to be. Unfortunately. This is quickly turning into the century of the control freak, which we had hoped went out with the demise of Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Nixon, Franco and Mao. Now they want Tomás de Torquemada on the Supreme Court.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)from the USA. This would require a really creative interpretation of the Constitution. We could also expect a ruling that burning a heretic at the stake is not cruel and unusual punishment.
DFW
(54,437 posts)The thought of Kavanaugh, Thomas, Alito, Roberts and Gorsuch inventing a constitutional precedent for removing Ginsburg, Kagan and Breyer from the Court byforce is no longer one I find inconceivable.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's about 40 percent of men and 40 percent of women who hold that position.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/07/07/on-abortion-persistent-divides-between-and-within-the-two-parties-2/ft_16-04-07_abortion_demographics/
Demovictory9
(32,475 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)How do they plan to handle all of these unwanted children? There won't be enough families who will want to adopt, what are they going to do with the overflow? Too many of these women will be unable to afford to take care of another baby. Are they going to subsidize them? I think we all know the answer to that. As usual, they are short-sighted and cruel. They don't care what will happen to the mother and live babies, they just want to punish women for having sex.