Some of them have check out areas where you do it yourself with credit or debit. Standing in line a worker tries to send you to self checkout. I tell them no it will cost jobs. I always get a crazy look.

And the woman that greets you at the door always seems miffed I say no thanks to her invitation to use the kiosk.

Believe me management is watching just how many people are NOT using the self machines. These workers are given orders to instead of upsell to push the machines.

I would stay home and make it myself.....Oh hell, who am I fooling, I make my own because it's better and cheaper.

I actually buy their ground coffee at the grocery store.

My local McDonalds leaves the coffee pot on forever, so their coffee tends to be burnt and old.

how to use the equipment.

So no check out people, no bagging people, just self check out and some helpers.

At least Aldi you bag you own stuff for a reason.

but it has resulted in me walking out and going to another store rather than wait 5 to 10 minutes for someone to come help when the self checkout freezes or does not ring an item up correctly.

The only reason I shop there is because they are the only grocery store that carries the Sunday issue of "The State" newspaper around this hellhole town, and they are the only ones who still double coupons. They only have one cashier, and half the time, the self-checkouts are not even operating. I used to get great deals there, but most weeks, it's just a 'fill in' trip. I never thought I'd be finding better deals at Food Lion.

chains across the country are making though is trying to compete with Walmart on price when what they should be doing is focusing on providing something Walmart wont pay for which is the workers to provide customer service.
After all why should customers go to a Food Lion or a Bi-Lo to pay more money for items than at Walmart when they both provide the same bad level of customer service?

They were all removed within three years. They are fine when you have a handful of items but not for the usual grocery trip. I believe theft went up, whether intentional or not, as well.

But what I saw with self checkout, if you have more than 10 items or items that require weighing, it is best to go to a cashier.

because they say they are losing money due to theft.
I don't like them because they use one person to monitor a bunch of registers, costing people jobs.

I refuse to use self checkout. I am not paying to do their job.

That said, my wife says I have become a 50 year old curmudgeon. I still get miffed that no one counts back change!

I haven't used pocket rocks except for tolls in at least 20 years.

I don't use cash in general but I really hate coins.

And I'm over 50.

they make it difficult for even checkers to load my bags
I try never to get those plastic bags that a so flimsy that they have to use two and only hold three items or less.
I usually have to bag myself because checkers can not get my stuff in my bags. I can get everything in two bags that we bought over 15 years ago and still do the job. Those store plastic bags should be banned.

Seattle has banned plastic bags. Always preferred paper anyway but we keep extra reusable bags in the trunk for groceries also.
I think I just read where India was moving to outlaw plastic bags.

so sad is finding a bird's nest in our fig tree that had pieces from a plastic bag woven into the nest. I hope the nest-maker didn't have to chew up the plastic bag in order to get those strands. It makes me sick to think about all of this plastic ending up in the ocean, the landfills, everyfuckingwhere.

That is exactly what they were, and guess where that company is now.

Not advocating for stealing from them (but I am).

The computer runs everything, the vicious dog keeps anyone from unplugging or fucking with it. The man is there to feed the dog. I don't mind machines replacing everybody as long as the profits from productivity are shared by all.

At least not in my town.

I genuinely dislike them. To me, the most annoying aspect (for some of them, anyway) is their insistence that you keep items on the surface next to the scanner after scanning them. If you move a bag into your cart to make room, it won't let you scan something else.

Something to remember is that self-checkouts, automated ordering systems, kiosks, ATMs, etc. do not pay any payroll taxes.

to physically go to the bank, he said it was easy and convenient...LOL.

Gas, food as we know but stayed in motels where they picked up the key from a box

To my knowledge they don't have any branches outside of Corporate buildings in San Antonio and CO Springs. All online now. Used to be via the mail. They treated me with respect and didn't fee me to death like every other bank did at the time. This was at a time that one needed a "check guarantee card" to write a check. B of A wouldn't give me one because my balance used to drop below $100 on a fairly consistant basis near pay day. Guess whose balance isnt that way anymore and guess who still remembers me who treated me right when I was young and who didn't?

They are excellent.

Doesn't matter if I have to wait in line for over a hour. I simply refuse.

Same thing with Mickey D's. I'll walk out first.

"I don't work here. I'm a customer."

when they can actually get some help from experts

I don't use them much, either, more because I want to support human beings. I dread the day that I go into an empty store, just me and the robot slaves anchored to the floor to keep me company.

about a month ago with my reusable bags. I use them all the time in this store and others, reusable grocery bags are big in my area, it's not a new thing. The cashier proceeded to instruct me as to how I should bag my groceries. She did it to the woman in front of me who had reusable bags, but I wasn't paying close attention and thought that that woman WANTED to bag herself. Couldn't figure out way she volunteered to bag and then had such a problem doing it. As a customer, I don't bag my groceries, but the way she wanted me to do it was impossible anyway, because I would have had to throw the groceries at the open bags, I couldn't reach. It was clear that she was NOT going to bag, so I let the entire order build up at the end, I paid the bill, and then I walked with my cart around to the end of the belt where I could reach my groceries and started bagging. She then began doing the next person's checkout, moving those groceries down until they were intermixed with mine. It was the weirdest thing that ever happened in a grocery store. I don't know what made her think she was doing the right thing, but I will certainly never use that cashier again, even if I do see her, which I have not since that episode. I'm still shaking my head over that one.

Stealing.

So I'm safe.

Seriously, I don't use them.

.

I fucking walked out, leaving the cart were it was.

.

They tried to get people to use the kiosk but I told the person urging me that I really wanted to deal with a person.

Switzerland and France all have those kiosks at the entrance. I don't eat at those places but had to go in looking for the restroom and noticed them. The people ordering didn't seem to mind. hmmm. I don't like it even if I don't eat that stuff for all of the reasons you mention.

I refuse to enter American fast food joints. For gods sake, I am in France!

The first time I went to Paris, my nephew (who lived in Belgium and was in the Air Force) tried to suggest we eat our first meal at Mickie Dees. I was appalled! I told him in no uncertain terms, “I did not come all the way to Paris, France to eat at McDonald’s!” He looked at me like I was nuts but we did not eat fast food in Paris.

My husband and I will be going on a river cruise in France next month and will finish the trip with three days in Paris. We are looking forward to the delicious food we’ll have while we are there. And it won’t be from McDonald’s. LOL

Be there at the same time I am guessing.

After 4 straight trips to France I am already missing it. Plus I speak some French. Not a lick of Italian or German!

I love Paris. If you love history check out Lafayette’s grave. Obscure and not easy to find but the best thing we have done in 4 paris trips.

Have a nice evening.

is the best cruise to take.
They have a Rhine cruise that ends in Basel.

and said it was spectacular. It's on our bucket list. Enjoy!

I agree, I never go to an American chain in another country, that is like driving with square tires.

I didn't eat McD's in the states why would I eat there here? I don't.
Finding a bathroom in Paris is hard.

with a choir and an orchestra. One day, the tour bus stopped at a MacDonalds somewhere in France. Everyone trooped in. I went across the street to a bar and ordered a beer and a croque monsieur. I watched the bus from the window, and left the bar as people were getting back on it.

MacDonalds in France? Non, merci.

Sadly, there is no little neighborhood boîte near me here in St. Paul, MN. I do not understand eating at MacDonalds in France. The sidewalk sausage roll vendor is a much better choice, and you get the additional benefit of actually using your high school French. Besides, who wants to stand in line behind a bunch of American you've been riding the bus with to order at MacDonalds? I walked in, sat down, ordered, got my beer immediately, and the sandwich shortly thereafter. While my travel companions were still waiting to order, I was eavesdropping on conversations in French.

People are very stupid, I think.

who lived in a European country for a time, sometimes it was nice to have a "taste of home." (Dutch food sucks, btw)

Only once did I use it. The rest of the time I always went and ordered at the counter.

Then tell them about the people with handicaps laws.

They are creating a job for the programmer, the repair person, the hardware builders, a person that cleans the kiosks, etc.

Lots of companies are pushing into intelligent repair and cleaning robots, and robots that repair them when they break. Within 20 years, one code writer and and one production engineer will replace 5,000-10000 lower wage workers, and income inequality would have gotten worse.

I'm sure it's not trivial but a handful of programmers for 12-24 months? Some crew to do periodic fixes and updates. Failure rate can't be too high but they probably do break regularly from use and abuse.

Just saying it's definitely not even close to one for one. If it were, keeping cashiers would be cheaper because programmers make more.

I admit I don't use because I usually don't go to the one store that has software that doesn't completely p*ss me off. When I do go there I go to person unless there is a line and machine is free

I work on intelligent systems to make production faster and more reliable. I own my own business, but I have worked for large companies. In the industry that I started my engineering career in, around 20 workers were needed to do 800 units per day, 10 years later, that number was 4-5 workers, even with the complexity of the units increasing 5 fold. Robots made the difference.

I was arguing/commenting to the person, Gore1FL, who said for each cashier job lost their job there would be a programmer or mfg or repair job gained.

I said that was wrong and gave I somewhat padded guesstimate of what first release of software would take. That is initial cost. Some minor cost to keep sw up to date. I didn't even give guess about building the units but I'd guess they are mostly common with the units cashiers use except for some theft avoidance for supermarkets and user friendliness for kiosks. In other words no significant cost difference for the hw.

Didn't go into the fact that a handful of vendors probably do it for all the chains that use these. Customization to make it look like one store vs another is old art.

Don't work in this area of computers but have some experience so interested if that's close

From your response I don't see what you are disagreeing with.

All that said I go to the human almost always because that's usually better for me. But between an ATM or a teller I'd pick the ATM for withdrawals

From my perspective, I see intelligent systems having a devastating impact on society if owners of those systems don't share the financial gains with the rest of society.

I like the idea of use of intelligent machine, frankly, they allow avoidance of the nonsense that people often bring to work. But I also believe the gains from using intelligent systems must be shared with society to maintain social stability.

But I also worry that just sharing the gains such as through ubi dodges the a larger question. What does the future look like if large percentages of people don't have to or can't work, beyond the question of are the financially ok?

Not to discount that and tackling "sharing the gains" is the more immediate and tangible problem. Will we wind up thinking of ourselves as part of the "productive class" versus the "free loading class"? For sure there will be people and organizations that would like to exploit that.

Sorry for some unorganized thoughts. The techie questions are a lot easier to grapple with

Once machines eliminate jobs, I see Romney types making "The 80%Takers, 20% makers" assault. I see arguments about WHO should be allowed to have children. The whole thing opens itself up to a potentially tragic mess.

Some here on DU argue that the world don't need anymore kids. People like Elon Musk envision colonizing Mars, and I am sure that once humans can reach inhabital planets, some will want to colonize those (which in itself is pretty arrogant if life forms are already inhabiting those places).

Personally. I think that we are already past the point of no return unless mindsets change dramatically. Automation owners MUST share their financial gains and beneficiaries of that sharing MUST accept that they have a societal role to play. If automaton owners refuse to share, we will perish, but if beneficiaries of UBI don't make wise choices and look at each day as a free day for fun and games, we will perish.

What is gained in cost savings is lost in shopping quality.

The quality of shopping, working and social connection is everything in life. To discount it is to be unaware of one's own endocrine system.

Responded to someone else with a backend question. I am a techie. But in that reply I detailed why I don't like pos systems but do like atms. And some thoughts or worries about where automation will take us.

I'll add that I do whatever I have to to not navigate phone systems. Get me to operator in shortest path


The genie is out of the bottle. I don't think I'm different than most. Some times automation is my preference sometimes not. But that won't stop automation and its impacts. I think it will be as disruptive as anything that's come our way and probably in a much shorter time frame. Industrial revolution took longer to unfold I think.

How our culture, government, institutions adjust is going to be fascinating. I hope in good ways and not just like a train wreck. History probably tells us both will happen.

There will be people that own the machines and people that can't find a job. You have to look no farther than today's debate concerning issues like Medicaid, CHIP, Food Assistance to see how that will go.

If people are sent off to colonize another planet and they survive, they will only screw (in more ways than one) themselves back into the predicament that they left. I really think as a species, we are in our last year's, it may take 10,000 years, 100,000 years or 10 million years, but we are done. My bet is on the shortest time, we have created too many large problems for ourselves and the planet.

.

Those POS systems and the back end systems don't program themselves. New features and updates are added all of the time. Local mom & pop stores don't to it, but larger stores, who use self-checkout, have more complex systems to maintain.

After gathering an order, I would like to end the transaction on a relaxed note, leaving the shopping experience better. The frustration of not only pulling individual items out of a cart, scanning them, confirming that the price was correct (since 80-90% of all sales errors benefit the store and not the customer) and then bagging each item, one at a time... that sucks.

.

Just curious. i wouldn't have thought the backend system would change based on self check out vs cashier except maybe to record which was used. Is that wrong?

ATMs seem more convenient to me. The POS systems annoy me by making me slow down to their pace. I can't scan as fast as I can grab. The theft prevention stuff is very finicky on how you bag. Having to retry makes me walk away rather than risk being charged twice. Buying liquor I have to wait for a human to approve it. And none of the sw let's me type in my phone # to get the discount. I refuse to carry the stupid cards

Since I'm already in the store I'd rather go to a person. As i said above if there is a line at the cashier and the machine is free I sometimes use them. The line with a cashier moves faster than the line for the machine because individuals take more time to figure things out like paying for fruits and the machines slow you down any way.

I have no good ideas about the larger question about automation eliminating jobs and where that will take to us. New jobs will happen in ways we can't think of but I do fear that AI and robotics are going to cause fundamental changes. Ubi is a tool but what happens when large numbers of people are idle? Are they free or controlled? Productive or indolent?

Dumbfounding. It's too easy to make a joke about her so I won't.

I agree with you completely, and am sorry you won't post your joke.

Myself, I was curious whether a light bulb appeared above her head when she made the connection.

Though I'm sure once the DU poster went away, she resumed her job touting the virtues of this amazing burger ordering machine.

6 months after robots work, 40% or more of the workers are gone for good.

the plan was for stores with kiosks was to upscale the service - instead of standing at the counter to pick up your order employees would provide table service. Every one of the locations we installed kiosks at first had to renovate and upgrade their store.

That's not to say that the end goal wasn't head count reduction.

I don't know, I look at it the same way I do when I go to the deli at the grocery store. If there are too many people waiting in line, I enter my order in the deli kiosk, continue my shopping and then circle back when my order is ready. This is a convenience and does not reduce staff as far as I can tell.

I love the deli kiosk. I can do the rest of my shopping and just come back and get my deli stuff. Wawa (convenience stores) have looks to order sandwiches, it saves time (print out your receipt, pay at the register, and by that time your food is probably done) and your order is usually right. Even better is places like Panera that you can order and pay from your phone.

Machine have and will increasingly have an enormous negative impact on economic mobility and social peace. I don't see a good end, most owners that deploy intelligent robots don't want to share the financial gains, at some point, they will run out of customers that have money to buy stuff.

shorten our work week, tax companies massive profits and supply a minimum income for workers displaced, but capitalism doesn't work that way, people are trash, greed is good.

While they turn workers against eachother.

Technology needs us, so it can survive.

Voice commands for turning on house lights? Smartphones? Automated check-outs? Navigation systems? Streaming video? Siri? Echo? Alexa? Google Home?

NONE of these are essential to our daily existence. In fact, life would be much simpler without them!

...the tellers were given incentive to push people to use the ATM in the guise of "free checking". Every person signed up was a point...the person who got the most that month, $200 dollar prize, gift certificate and some hoopla by the bank manager. And none of them realized they were essentially eliminating their own jobs.

I have some sympathy for her position, even though she was unpleasant: the whole thing was disappearing out from under her, and no doubt she'd been told to tell customers to use the ATM. However, I looked her in the eye and said when the day comes that I can't talk to a human being, I will change banks.

That entire operation is gone now, name and all. My husband and I still conduct our banking with human beings, but we and they are a vanishing breed. Grocery stores and hardware stores have a combination of checkout lines where some of them have people to interact with and others require the customer to scan and total their own purchase. They are training us, the consumer, to not expect other humans to serve us.

Your MacDonald's person was just naive and doing as she had been told. You may have wrecked her day by forcing her to contemplate the demise of the only job she could find. Or perhaps she found sudden enlightenment.

sign some paperwork for an interest free utility loan. It wasn't my choice; only certain banks do these sorts of transactions.

Saturday morning, beautiful building, plenty of employees. Busy town, on a very busy road. Plenty of employees standing around doing nothing but smiling at me. My transaction took a little longer than usual because of some system problems so the entire thing ended up taking a half hour.

Not a soul walked into the place during that entire time.

that was my thought. I'm not 100% sure telling her this is the right thing to do (I'm not sure it's wrong either).

the future of automation:

Äkta människor (Real Humans)

by the ever prescient Phil Ochs (1963)

Oh I laid down your railroads, every mile of track.
With the muscles on my arm and the sweat upon my back.
And now the trains are rolling, they roll to every shore
You tell me that my job is through, there ain't no work no more.
Though I laid down your highways all across the land.
With the ringing of the steel and the power of my hands.
And now the roads are there like ribbons in the sky,
You tell me that my job is through but still I wonder why.
For the wages were low and the hours were long
And the labour was all I could bear.
Now you've got new machines for to take my place
And you tell me it's not mine to share.
Though I laid down your factories and laid down your fields,
With my feet on the ground and my back to your wheels.
And now the smoke is rising, the steel is all a-glow,
I'm walking down a jobless road and where am I to go.
Tell me, where am I to go.

that he doesn't even have an avatar!

Kidding, Vinnie. I agree with your OP. Universal basic income is going to be a requirement soon because technology is rapidly replacing a lot of human workers.

I have tried to use the machines in the past, but each time had some problem. So I stopped using them altogether. The counter help doesn't like that, but I don't care. Traveling is stressful enough without the added burden of trying to "intuit" what the programme wants from me.

is the new soft drink machine that requires a Doctorate in Computer Science to get a cup of ice and soft drink. I'm 73, very computer literate. I've watched other folks younger than I trying to figure out the goddam thing and finally giving up, asking the counter people to get a soda for them.

I usually on drink water and won't pay for bottled water. So there I am pushing a dozen or so buttons just to fill my courtesy water cup. Since those are usually tiny, I have to do it more than once per meal.

It's been enough of a hassle I've cut down on going to what had been my favorite fast food place.

I’ve never had a problem with it unless my drink of choice is out.

drives me crazy too.
Just when you get it going, if it stops for even half a second you have to start all over again.
aaaaaarrrrrrrgggghhhhh

unemployment by promoting automation. Her ignorance, the lack of critical thinking skills, is the result of decades of deliberate educational failure. She is the perfect, mindless corporate worker, and not nearly as useful as an automated kiosk.

What subsistence role will she, and the millions in a barely functioning labor pool just like her, ever find in the future?

I've seen a few touch upon it. Elon Musk has extolled the necessity of a universal basic income.... but when do we start to address the simple aesthetic truth (which Marx and William Morris of the 19th century once spoke of), that we are letting the machine alienate us from our work, the land and each other.

Crunching numbers for client tax forms. They installed an upgraded computer program into their computer network. And they let me go. I lost my job to a computer program.

Crunching numbers is what computers do best... surely you saw that one coming all the way from 1980.

ended up in Janitorial. Everyone needs me, and so far, no machine or program can replace me

THAT's a book deal! (If you write it with even half the saucey pithy flavor of some of these DU posts).

Do it! ....or an article?

the IRS. I can pass any background check, so I get a little better salary than most. I work 7-4 M-F, with all govt days off, plus 1 wk paid vacation. Plus, I work alone with no supervisor. Its really a great job.

I also keep my eyes/ears open, and my mouth shut 😜 because, boy, do I hear tidbits.

All the kiosks were full of people who were taking time trying to figure them out. We went up to the counter, ordered our stuff, and had it delivered to our table before some of them had completed their kiosk orders and found seats.

I just like dealing with people more. I don't like the double lane drive thrus our McDs have put in. I don't think they work any faster. They do mean that more cars are in the drive thru lanes than being stuck out on the road or stopping up their driveway.

is like this now. Buncha people gathered around a kiosk trying to figure out how to get it to work. Airport worker comes up, tries to get it to work. It's broken! Points people to line with a person.

At Heathrow recently people were fruitlessly pushing bottons trying to get the baggage self-check-in to work. Finally a woman comes up and leads us to an unattended baggage check-in, gets behind the counter, and proceeds to check us in the old-fashioned way. Took seconds per flyer by someone who knew what she was doing. Even if the self-check had been working, it would have taken each person far longer to figure it out than it did this woman who already knew how it worked and could just check us in. It's not about speeding the customer on his way, it's about shifting the labor from the paid employee to the unpaid customer.

other publications bragging about how great it was going to be. We were supposed to see the 30 hour work week or even better. The idea was that if we didn't need everyone to work full-time, that was going to be okay. You would earn a livable wage for part-time work. Of course we weren't supposed to give all the money to a handful of people at the top.

But not so much for the average human worker.

But that's the way everything is going and there's no turning back.
The world changes and the only thing you can do is be flexible and try to navigate your way through unfamiliar waters.

It's taken me 52 years of life to realize this fact, but I finally do. Most people are just too busy living their day to day lives to think things through.

I find your experience funny in a way. Did a light bulb appear above their head when you mentioned that this computer might someday result in their job being taken away? They sound like a taxi cab driver who wants to cheer a self driving car, until someone tells them that self driving car may hurt their livelihood. Lightbulb!

Within the last couple of days, the Washington Post carried an article describing a huge warehouse operation in China, similar to Amazon -- people order online and their orders are filled from this warehouse.

There are only four human employees -- everything else is done by robots.

The CEO of the company is quoted as saying his plan is to do away entirely with human employees.

Part of the article addressed the impact of automation on jobs in the US -- there was a prediction that 30% of all US jobs could be lost to automation by 2030.

It's not just robots and ordering kiosks as in McD -- it's also about artificial intelligence that's smarter than some people.

imo, most people have no frickin idea what's coming in the way of jobs eliminated by software and machines driven by software...

I've read credible articles that estimate 25-35% of all jobs we see today will be eliminated in 10 years.

I don't know why the management at these places think they have the right to insult us and push us around, when they are not even our employers. They have no idea how their employees boost their business with friendly help, advice, and social interaction.

at a grocery store. When I lived in Wichita, the Dillons chain put those self-serve checkout machines in the stores around 2003, mainly replacing the express lanes. Even if I only needed a few items, I would use a human checkout line. Often, the cashier would tell me that I could have used the self-checkout. I always asked if I would receive either a paycheck or a discount for essentially becoming a Dillons cashier. They would said no, but it might be faster. I then said, "you know, that is YOUR job being replaced there." Far too often, they would suddenly get very quiet and I could tell by their expression that they hadn't yet realized that.

Management was obviously telling cashiers to push the new machines. Whenever I had the chance, I told them I would always rather deal with a human.

There are other factors that will offset it. Things change it won’t be the end of the world. People are always scared of change and new technologies. I love kiosk and self checkout. The less I have to deal with people the better. And I can’t wait for self driving cars and automated trucks.

Do you work? Because if you have a job right now the odds are very high that in the not terribly distant future your position will be outsourced to robots. And when that happens how will we pull money out of those automated tellers or buy groceries in the self check-out line? I mean eventually our dental hygienists and orthopedic surgeons will be freaking robots.

im Not worried about a robot taking my job.

Either adapt, or get left behind.

Even the kids admit my Mother's newest super duper cable remote takes five clicks to do what one used to do.

from wealth, from creative work, from each other and from the land and other animals.... Just as Marx predicted.

William Morris, another 19th century visionary, offered an antidote, which the maker movement and artisan food culture stems from: a return to cottage industry.

The implication for DU? We should not just be whining about Republicans, but figuring out (together) what Democratic policies can foster a less alienated, decentralized future.

That is, how do we get there? Should a universal basic income be part of this vision?

(But please don't just react to UBI... the real question is, how do we address, in a deep, infrastructural sense, the problem machines and AI pose to our psyches, the aesthetics of daily life in the face of machine-induced alienation)