different place, but in the same post You claim the election was stolen and blame those who supported Ralph Nader?

Which is it?

If just 2,000 of them in Florida had voted for Gore instead, he would have become President. Nader got 97,000 vote in Florida, Bush won the state by 952 votes. The Nader voters are responsible for President Obama inheriting a mess in 2009. They are responsible for the damage Bush/Cheney did to the environment. They are responsible for 9/11 and 3,000 dead people. They are responsible for over 4,000 dead American soldiers and hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis and Afgans. Is that clear enough for you?

had there been a President Gore.

Speculation

two parties in power America forever is written in stone. A little competition for the two party vice is good for democracy. Not having any other choice is more responsible for division today than a lot of other things.

Well Said, but hey, the OP is on a roll.......

I believe that you are correct.

Are you a self appointed voting monitor?

otherwise.

asked one of you that apparently hit too close to home.

who threw the election to Bush?

The county was so small and still had those kA-Chunk lever voting machines that we (husband at time and I) had to write it on a paper ballot.

Results published in paper. Two votes for Nader. Entire county.

is a pertinent question?

Seems we have a voting monitor looking to create an issue. But, I could be wrong.

But it was kind of funny to see those two votes counted in the paper.

As it was my state went heavily for Bush, so I could have voted for a cardboard box and it would have made no difference.

Guilty conscience?

are allowed.

It would be great if you could explain that.

about Democrats shouldn’t be questioned?? It’s common knowledge Nader lied about Gore, lied about Democrats.

he broke that promise in FL. I lived through the whole damn debacle and will always say: Fck Nader.

The 97,000 Nader voters saw how tight the race was in Florida coming down to the last two weeks. Yet, they still voted for Nader. They elected Bush by stupidity and hubris, so they own ALL of his mistakes.

Nader accepted money from GOP sources and used it to run ads that attacked Gore with lies

Thanks.

Choice Point did it and it is PROVEN.

Also were the idiotic Palm Beach County hanging chads irrelevant? The placing of Dem and Rep in misaligned (off set) spaces on the punch ballots in a REALLY old precinct of Dems didn't matter? Hint - IT DID! To the tune of 1,000's of fucked up votes.

It was all Nader? Are you a 21st century person that has never experienced the 2000 elections except through documentaries and word of mouth?

Oh and I lived there in 2000 and voted Gore but what the fuck let's blame one group instead of the whole theft?

Dr. Lance Dehaven-Smith wrote a very nice review of the 2000 election called the Battle for Florida. It is a good read. 2004 was also fucked statistically but we can't blame Nader there...

https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Florida-Annotated-Compendium-Presidential/dp/0813028191

Why not be strategic, win the presidency, Congress and control of statehouses and legislatures, then fix the voter purge corruption? Oh, that requires thinking ahead some, not running on emotion and nothing else.

And we could do nothing to stop it. That is real politics not fantasy.

With out the purge and chads, in the absence of them, Gore would likely have won handily. I imagine, but have not studied it, but several congressional seats, and state house seats, would have also switched. They were also impacted by the statewide dem/POC purge.

You are willfully ignoring voter purges and that Palm Beach demon woman that actually, and physically, and in real time reality, depressed and confused votes. God forbid we keep our eye on that ball, am I right bruh? That's not strategic at all!

Are you serious or just a political website hack? Seriously. I've never, since the very early 2000's, seen someone brush aside the Choice Point Purges and Palm Beach hanging chads with such ease. Like it had no effect and never happened.

Oh and I am going to bed now so sleep tight and take off.

That is idiocy piled on top of the corrupt voter purge. That clear enough for you?

Plus Gore should have gotten more votes anyway but that's all dust in the bitchy wind. His own home state would have helped electorally vote wise but who is counting?

This: https://www.thenation.com/article/how-the-2000-election-in-florida-led-to-a-new-wave-of-voter-disenfranchisement/


"On November 7, 2000, Willie Steen, a Navy vet who had served in the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm, went to cast his ballot for president at the St. Francis Episcopal Church in Tampa, Florida.

He brought his 10-year-old son, Willie Jr., to the polls for the first time. They waited a half hour to reach a poll worker. When Steen gave the poll worker his name, she searched a list of registered voters in the precinct and told him, “You can’t vote. You’re a convicted felon.”

“You must be mistaken,” a shocked Steen replied. “I’ve never been arrested in my life.” He worked at a hospital, a Tampa orthopedics center, that wouldn’t employ anyone with a felony conviction."

and:

"He later found out from journalist Greg Palast that he’d been confused with a convict named Willie O’Steen, who had committed a felony between 1991 and 1993, when Steen was in the Persian Gulf. Little did Steen know that the same thing was happening to voters across the state of Florida—and disproportionately to voters like him, who were African-American."

"Hanging chads, butterfly ballots, the antics of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris, and thousands of Jews accidentally voting for Pat Buchanan in Palm Beach were among the stories that captured the headlines during the chaotic 36-day Florida recount between Al Gore and George W. Bush. The widespread and wrongful purging of registered voters was the most consequential—and least discussed—aspect of the Florida election."

AND:

"No one could ever determine precisely how many voters who were incorrectly labeled felons were turned away from the polls. But the US Civil Rights Commission launched a major investigation into the 2000 election fiasco, and its acting general counsel, Edward Hailes, did the math the best that he could. If 12,000 voters were wrongly purged from the rolls, and 44 percent of them were African-American, and 90 percent of African-Americans voted for Gore, that meant 4,752 black Gore voters—almost nine times Bush’s margin of victory—could have been prevented from voting. It’s not a stretch to conclude that the purge cost Gore the election. “We did think it was outcome-determinative,” Hailes said."

But it was well over 12k so the numbers could keep going up. But still the purge even at its lowest count still made a difference.

If you don't think this purging impacted well beyond what ever hippie dope smokers voting for Nader did then I give up. Seriously the election was stolen and Nader is literally an after thought. Even with him if the purge and chads and Buchanan/Jewish issues never happened (intentionally!) Gore would have won.

Focusing on Nader in 2018 is lame. Really lame. The focus should be on good aggressive Dem candidates and fighting voter suppression which (the suppression and bllot confusion) is how Bush won. Advocates should volunteer to keep a physical watch over bad ballots, even electronic, and ID nazis.

EDIT (these nuts hurt Bush):

Patrick J. Buchanan– 17,484 Reform
Harry Browne– 16,415 Libertarian
John Hagelin– 2,281 Natural Law

the Naderites

Yeah, Florida was a mess, but he had many other problems than just Florida.

Because the Gore campaign had to spend money to counter lying ads Nader paid for with money from GOP sources.

for equating Gore to Bush? Did he ever issue a mea culpa for supporting Nader in 2000? Probably not - Fahrenheit 9/11 was a blockbuster, but it likely wouldn't have been made had Gore (a vocal critic of the Iraq War) been POTUS.


https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/15/us/the-2000-campaign-the-green-party-in-nader-supporters-math-gore-equals-bush.html

The reactionarkys are free to break every rule of conmon decency and recklessly endanger the very world we live on in quest for power to exploit. ...you seriously think Mike or Ralph should be admonished?

Last edited Sun Sep 16, 2018, 06:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Moore claims to be progressive yet spends the bulk of his latest documentary shitting on Democrats. Should I give him a cookie for that?

Republicans know how to pull together at the last instant to steal elections. They're currently advancing their loathsome agenda with gleeful abandon. The only thing Moore is advancing is his filmmaking career.

And that's how these fuckers like it. You know how gun sales skyrocket when a Democrat is in the WH? Moore profits just as much when a Bush or a Trump is POTUS. He's the other side of the coin.

Congressional Caucus's effort to refuse geebush (Geeb) the election on grounds of fraud? The American ppl were played for fools in that election. ...millions went to bed assured that Gore was potus, woke up to 3card monte!

Link to tweet

come up with improved firefighting techniques.

There’d be no Nixon ‘68 (and all the criminals and assholes from his administration, some of whom are still active today); an abbreviated Vietnam war; likely a national healthcare system; likely an improved education system; likely a more inclusive society; no corporate “personhood”; progress instead of regression. On it goes.

Every so often, I think about what might have been, versus what is. A fruitless exercise, I know. But such promising opportunities were within reach for all Americans, until snatched away by bullets.

I mark the beginning of the erosion of trust in government, the demonizing of liberalism, and the emergence of a criminal right-wing element with the deaths of John and Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr.

By now, things have eroded so extensively from those tragic jolts to democracy that the shadow of outright fascism blankets the nation.

These leaders who were cut down were of a piece. While not perfect men, they nevertheless represented a muscular, healthy liberalism with an eye toward a greater good for all. There was also a heightened charisma factor that cannot be denied. Much of the Western world was infatuated with the American leadership of the time.

JFK's brief time in office was, I think, America's high-water mark: performing arts and culture in the White House; the establishment of the White House Historical Association; the fascination with space exploration and the Mercury Astronauts; the President's Council on Physical Fitness; the Cuban Missile crisis averted by diplomacy; and a feeling that everyone-- Democrats, Republicans, rich or poor--everyone felt like a shareholder in this forward-looking enterprise, regardless of station or wealth.

It was magic, right up until November 22nd, 1963.

It’s folly to suppose such a thing when we really just don’t know. Let it go. The past belongs in the past we can’t change it. Creating the future we want is where our energy must be directed.

consequences of their actions.

I will not be silenced.

don't want me to talk about it.

someone is on a roll.........

The 40% who don't care have caused more harm.

that's been building to this point since the 1960s, enormously empowered by the explosion of wealth due to increased production and the development and weaponization of the internet.

W's candidacy and the stolen election was their work, but if it'd failed they've have tried, tried again. They play a long game. In fact, with Trump threatening so much destabilization and dysfunctional house Republicans battling each other, the Kochs have stated their willingness to see the Democrats take control of the house (NOT the senate!) -- although they want to retain Republican control of both and their alliance is reportedly investing heavily in that.

of the whole. We of course know that these left wing third party and other spoiler candidates are heavily promoted by powers far larger than them.

What the Koch and other kleptocrats did to boost Nader back in 2004 was instrumental in electing Bush, amplifying and multiplying his left-wing anti-Democrat rhetoric and seducing his followers into voting against Democrats.

In 2016, this game plan was basically repeated. Sanders was promoted to the nation as a spoiler candidate by the Republicans and various right wing American power centers, and as it turned out also by Russia. Common goal: Defeat Democrats. They manipulated Sanders' most vulnerable followers to ramp up their antagonism toward the Democratic Party and to seduce those who didn't like Hillary into full-fledged derangement. This also worked and provided a huge payback.

But if there were no Nader or Sanders they would have created them. As they pretty much did. Nader was mostly seen as a crank, and for his entire career in congress until then Sanders's big claim to fame was as that guy with the I by his name in group pictures.

Last edited Sun Sep 16, 2018, 10:24 PM - Edit history (2)

"Nader voters are responsible for President Obama inheriting a mess in 2009. They are responsible for the damage Bush/Cheney did to the environment. They are responsible for 9/11 and 3,000 dead people. They are responsible for over 4,000 dead American soldiers and hundreds of thousands dead Iraqis and Afgans." -- Not really. Bush/Cheney was responsible though. And if memory serves, some Democrats voted for the Iraq War Resolution. Are they responsible?

I voted for Gore but I can understand another perspective. If everyone who voted for Gore had voted for Nader, Bush would not have been elected. Does that make Democrats responsible for all that stuff that happened?


People run in elections. People vote in elections. If you vote for someone who starts a war or something, then yes you have to take some responsibility. Voting for third party is really a different story. You should blame the really crappy electoral system we have - a system Nader has tried to change and you should, too, if you think it's a problem.

Sorry we voters are only human; we do the best we can. There's a place for dissent.

I will never forgive nader Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

Nader? He was a freaking Liar and he had his suckers believing there was no Difference between Al Gore and bush/cheney. Fucking Liar.

And, your "Seriously, please seek help" is an insult to that poster. Maybe you should look in the mirror before you insult posters on this board.

the right into power were a matter of principle I despise their hypocrisy. They should go tell that to a child in a cage, or any of the millions of people their actions helped hurt.

They own the results of their own choices just as much anyone else, including the Republicans who trumpet their choices proudly instead of denying them. That it would probably take psychological counseling for them to break through their personal conceits to understand why doesn't abrogate their responsibility.

"Seek help"? Really?

As they say on the Greek Island of Icaria, "Sophia", i.e., "Welcome"!

that a vote for Gore is a vote for bush

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/15/us/the-2000-campaign-the-green-party-in-nader-supporters-math-gore-equals-bush.html


YES, NADER AND HIS FALSE EQUIVALENCY BULLSHIT duped enough people to turn the election, spewing the BIG LIE that there was no difference between the Democrats and the republicans.


Now some want to exonerate responsibility for these liars and frauds?

NO!!!

THEY DON'T GET AWAY FROM THIS.

They influenced JUST ENOUGH voters who could have made the difference, and they bear responsibility for that

Not surprisingly, some of those same faces from 2000 not only showed no remorse for their actions in 2000, but they ran the same deception in 2016


They deserve any scorn and wrath that is directed toward them

It is hoped that these frauds will NEVER be listened to again by Democrats and TRUE DEMOCRATS, who understand that there is a difference between Democrats and republicans, and trump and the Democratic nominee

had his admin not been able to sniff out 9-11, because they conservative media and R elected officials would have evicerated him for it, he would been run out of office in 2004, and the country would have bought into the "DEMOCRATS CAN'T KEEP YOU SAFE!!!!!!!!" for decades.

These right-wingers who've been subverting our democracy and transferring power and wealth to themselves ("We have to get off the backs of business" is theirs') for decades are extremely entrenched and powerful and will keep trying until we take them down. It's not impossible. FDR's administration did it.

....left a detailed report about potential terrorist attacks, including flying commercial airplanes into buildings, for the next President. bush didn't open that report until August 2001, a few weeks before the attack on September 11, and it's contents were virtually ignored. Had Gore, part of the Clinton Administration, been elected he most certainly knew about potential terrorist attacks even before that report was written, and he would have read and acted on the contents / recommendations of that report.

There is no contrast between how Gore would have approached terrorism from day one and how bush ignored terrorism until it bit him in the ass.

The Bush Administration went out of its way to ignore terrorism, that was a Clinton thing. I wonder if anyone has proposed that the ONLY way 9/11 could happen as it did was during an administration so bound and determined to ignore the whole topic.

that might still be standing.

If Gore had been president, we wouldn't have Obama, so I guess ti them it was worth it

Lock cockpit doors said the candidate.

Wow I forgot how good it felt to say that. It’s been a while!

I had a chat with a friend who voted for trump, at the time she told me she had information from people in the inside who knew Hillary that she knows who had told her horrible things about Hillary. I asked her the other day to tell me all the "secret" things she was told about Hillary that pushed her to make such a horrible mistake.

She could not come up with much besides "I was told she doesn't work well with people.", of course my jaw hit the table, but she is a good friend, and it is water under the bridge, plus she is angry and wants all republicans out of power, so better not piss her off

Thankfully, I don't have any trump voters who are close to me. Seeing all the suffering going on and that they were a contributing factor...I just can't deal with that.

And take it out on them.

The left isn't the problem in this country. It is still very small and is not an excuse for lost elections.

The right is where the problem is. Take the fight to the right.

That's what you do when someone else says something.

But nobody ever claims to be a purist. That's your characterization.

Don’t call themselves purists but demand purity from Democrats.

I've been wondering if Clinton had been impeached and removed from office ... Gore would have ran as the incumbent. How different that would have been! Not sure keeping him in office did us any favors in the long run.

China & India never went along with any reduction effort and China puts WAY more into the air than the US. The environment doesnt slow down just because "1st world" countries are supposed to let other countries "catch up"
Our emissions now are LOWER than they were in 2000.

WE are the bad guys....the '1st world' is the richest most powerful for a reason ie a corrupt and violent global economy!

All it knows is where the pollution is coming from. And less of it is coming from US.

but the envirmn't loses regardless. I believe the 'way forward' demands a rigorous honesty, and comforting ourselves by asserting we've improved while those Massives remain stuck in the mud (where we left them generations ago!) leaves the environment still drowning in filth. I believe a global fix (heat, energy, can be converted directly into electricity, and there's too much heat!) is easily do-able, but the fascists have a death grip on the levers of power, and giving them an inch (we have reduced our footprint size) just enables them to waste time, and time is of the essence!
Btw, I was reading a story about a guy motorcycling to tip of Samerica and back, and (I once transitted the Statits of magellan on tanker) the winds so strong the bike nearly flew away! Item: why not put up heavy duty wind generators ( i recall our ship waited 2 days for wind to slow enuff for us to hurry into the straights)...this is just one example. Stand on any city streetcorner on a hot day with all the cars cooking the air...think of all that energy going to waste!

The US would have been the world leader in solar 2 decades ago.
And yes, we SHOULD be using the heat for power. You can heat your water with the heat from your AC unit. You can heat your pool water with the massive heat from your attic; lowering your AC bill in the house & letting you swim longer into fall. You can use ocean waves to generate power. You can use the tides too.
SO many things. We need good tax incentives to make it worth the cost. My friends in CA got solar on their roof and love it. But without the tax credits they said theres no way they could've afforded it. I dont know what they were; I didnt want to get too deep in their business.
But YES, we should be looking at ALL of the above and more. 20 things generating 5% = 100%!!!!

That's nutty.

This is why Gore was so advanced for his time. He ignored idiotic sneers to advance his knowledge base.

Want to know what I would change in history if I could?

First, at the end of the Civil War, the traitorous leaders of the Confederacy should have been charged with treason and convicted and punished. Thanks to General Grant, they were not and the entire BS belief that the South shall rise again flourished and continued the racism inherent in slavery.

Second, I’d prevent President Kennedy’s assassination. Our country’s trajectory would be entirely different if he had lived through a second term.

My two cents.

Beto O'Rourke kind of reminds me of Robert Kennedy. Is this history in the making?

Nader is responsible for the Iraq war, Citizens United and the gutting of the voting rights act. Nader was solely responsible for bush being elected in 2000 and for bush putting Alito and Roberts on the SCOTUS. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html

He played it safe during the campaign.

He did not run on the progress of the CLinton WH and distanced himself from Bill.

He lost his home state TN.

His VP was a POS.

He did not fight for a full state recount in FL.

He did not push back on the "soreloserman" BS. He won the PV.

He blocked the objections in the House.

And the blame goes squarely on the bush crime family fucking with the votes and voters in FL.

Should have never let a right-wing judiciary appoint a President. Republicans would have fought until the last vote was counted.

Gore lost TEN Clinton States (including his home State of TN). Winning any one of those States would have made FL irrelevant.