I don't have the money to buy one, but I sure would like to have a successful small business.

and bringing the frickin' solar system into the argument is ludicrous. Why not bring in Jesus? It's about as meaningful.

all of our resources food, water, clothing, shelter, metals, fuel, oxygen, etc come from the Earth. In some cases the extraction is as easy as picking fruit off of a tree or breathing, in others it requires a little more work but in all cases we just take it. And many of the things we just take are from other living entities that did the work of producing those resources for us. So in that sense we can never claim we got where we are by ourselves. A lot of our resource gathering involves killing and theft from other species. So for a Paul Ryan to stand there and say the sole principle behind people keeping everything they have is that "they worked for it" then you have to include other species in that because they worked for their lives and resources too.

none of this has anything to do with the president's unfortunate turn of phrase.

But it has a lot to do with countering this Right Wing myth about "earning" stuff, which is what the prez was trying to do. Certainly what I'm saying needs to be simplified and repackaged in a more palatable form for the American voter to digest and understand but the point is, if you're going to claim you should keep everything you've got because you worked for it, you need to take that principle to its complete extent. And when you are forced to do that it becomes clear what you're claiming is bs. You can't buy up all the fresh water supplies on the planet and then withhold water or exhort large fees for something that used to be free. In principle, that is possible under a Ryan view of economics and resource management.

you need to take that principle to its complete extent...."

I don't agree. Taking the argument to the extreme opposite will not impress those who are ready to vote for him. Taking the argument to the opposite extent is not necessary and may alienate some voters who once supported Obama.

Why negate personal initiative? What's wrong with " 'earning' stuff" ?

Obama recognized personal initiative and said: "We're all in this together." This statement is simple and needs no repackaging.

This is something I have personally arrived at over a long chain of epiphanies so I wouldn't expect anyone who hasn't to agree over only a few exchanges. Your views are formed and I certainly respect that. So barring a long and taxing debate between us (and it would be) I will refer you to this website:

https://sites.google.com/site/livingwithoutmoney/

But if you still want my personal short reason for what's wrong with it, it's because earning (rather than freely sharing and giving to each other regardless of anyone's personal initiative) introduces the concept of dependence on others rather than on the Earth. And successful dependence on others requires that those you are depending on are trustworthy and have your interest in mind rather than just their own. But when you place a price tag on everything, that is just not realistic.

I know you will counter this as you will counter my subsequent responses and we will just go on forever and so that is why I refer you to the above website. It's not exactly the same course from which my own conclusions were drawn but it's close enough.

Ultimately, earning stuff directly from the Earth (if it can be called 'earning&quot is fine but earning it from others is always potentially problematic.

I'm interested in learning more about this point of view.

"The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

The fact that this planet exists in just the right place and evolved in just the right way makes all we have possible. None of us can take credit for that.

We all depend on something to sustain us. We simply cannot live by our own efforts alone. Yes a person can individually build and accomplish including building a business. Every business needs customers, employees, systems or resources. Unless you went out and created all of that yourself you cannot take all the credit for your success.

One of the best examples about dependence on others was a a series on PBS about what Einstein needed from scientific researchers before him before he was able to come up with E=MC squared. There were a series of people who researched key scientific problems that they solved in even primitive ways that made his discovery possible. One person was a woman who had advanced a mathematic concept in the 17th century I believe. And the Arabs invented algebra. The series was very profound in showing how nothing and no one lives in an entire vacuum. Even one of our greatest geniuses needed proven concepts that he was taught to make his discovery.

Romney should thank the workers whose jobs and wealth he stole because they built the value for him to take in the first place. The whole argument about building it on your own is so narcissistic in the first place.