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MelissaB

(16,420 posts)
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 10:19 AM Oct 2018

Trump Campaign: Ok we did it, but it's not illegal

The Trump Campaign Says Exploiting Hacked Emails Is Free Speech

Lawyers for the campaign asserted in court papers a right to disclose “even stolen information.”


In a motion to dismiss a new lawsuit accusing President Donald Trump’s campaign team of illegally conspiring with Russian agents to disseminate stolen emails during the election, Trump campaign lawyers have tried out a new defense: free speech.

The lawsuit, filed last month by two donors and one former employee of the Democratic National Committee, alleges that the Trump campaign, along with former Trump adviser Roger Stone, worked with Russia and WikiLeaks to publish hacked DNC emails, thereby violating their privacy.

But the Trump campaign—represented by Jeffrey Baltruzak, Michael A. Carvin, Nikki L. McArthur, and Vivek Suri, all of the law firm Jones Day—responded in a brief filed Tuesday that the campaign can’t be held legally responsible for WikiLeaks’s publication of the DNC emails.

Furthermore, the Trump lawyers argued, the First Amendment protects the campaign’s “right to disclose information—even stolen information—so long as (1) the speaker did not participate in the theft and (2) the information deals with matters of public concern.”

The motion’s language seems to further an argument made by Trump and his allies as they await the findings of Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into a potential conspiracy between the campaign and Russia in 2016: namely, that collusion, even if it involved the coordinated release and exploitation of a candidate’s emails during the presidential election, is not a crime.

More: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/10/trump-campaign-defends-wikileaks-use-hacked-dnc-emails/572587/
35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Trump Campaign: Ok we did it, but it's not illegal (Original Post) MelissaB Oct 2018 OP
MFers Freethinker65 Oct 2018 #1
yeah, because i'm sure they'd feel exactly the same way if hillary had done this unblock Oct 2018 #2
Since when is receiving stolen property free speech? meow2u3 Oct 2018 #3
When it comes to things like emails or other paperwork its usually not a crime and if it was then a cstanleytech Oct 2018 #12
We're talking about stolen emails meow2u3 Oct 2018 #14
Yes I know but I doubt the courts would treat it anymore seriously than they have cstanleytech Oct 2018 #17
The Pentagon Papers were stolen as well NewJeffCT Oct 2018 #18
Wrong analogy Lithos Oct 2018 #23
Not only that Beausoleil Oct 2018 #30
They were publicly distributed by WikiLeaks .... reACTIONary Oct 2018 #24
But those emails have a monetary value as oppo research, something that campaigns pay procon Oct 2018 #34
When you get a guy like Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court. That's when. calimary Oct 2018 #28
Nothing is "illegal" in Trump World. kentuck Oct 2018 #4
+1000 Power 2 the People Oct 2018 #31
Un-befriggin-lievable !! donkeypoofed Oct 2018 #5
So at the exact same moment, they are running with this: blugbox Oct 2018 #6
Well, we're finally here htuttle Oct 2018 #7
Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2018 #8
Again it can be criminal if the deal was being worked out with the Russians before they hacked the cstanleytech Oct 2018 #9
And if we don't like that... JohnnyRingo Oct 2018 #10
have they packed enough courts yet to succeed? Hermit-The-Prog Oct 2018 #11
I doubt Alito or Roberts would be willing to go that far to cover for truly criminal acts. cstanleytech Oct 2018 #13
remember mcCONnell packed lower courts Hermit-The-Prog Oct 2018 #35
Moving the goalposts again Wednesdays Oct 2018 #15
Exactly. iluvtennis Oct 2018 #21
Spread the word and resell the stolen goods... sanatanadharma Oct 2018 #16
So what if we committed treason. world wide wally Oct 2018 #19
This is Watergate & they are going to sweep it under the rug. Crash2Parties Oct 2018 #20
They will run this up to the supreme court and we know what they will decide. GOP lancelyons Oct 2018 #22
And thus it begins lunatica Oct 2018 #25
Nice try Trumpbag C_U_L8R Oct 2018 #26
To me THIS is exactly the reason they refused to testify under oath bluestarone Oct 2018 #27
" so long as (1) the speaker did not participate in the theft " knightmaar Oct 2018 #29
nothing like twisting everything around bdamomma Oct 2018 #32
Deny that they did until that lie fails... Thomas Hurt Oct 2018 #33

unblock

(52,243 posts)
2. yeah, because i'm sure they'd feel exactly the same way if hillary had done this
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 10:30 AM
Oct 2018



c'mon, contraband is contraband. it's illegal for a reason. this ridiculous legal "theory" allows people to profit (possibly involved in the original theft crime) to profit from the fruits of criminal activity, and it consigns the victim to permanent, expensive, and unnecessary damage without compensation even if the original thief is caught and punished.

meow2u3

(24,764 posts)
3. Since when is receiving stolen property free speech?
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 10:32 AM
Oct 2018

The entire GOP is a criminal enterprise and using stolen materials against Democrats is proof positive. They'll stop at nothing, not even murder, to keep power.

They belong behind bars, not in power.

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
12. When it comes to things like emails or other paperwork its usually not a crime and if it was then a
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 11:38 AM
Oct 2018

number of reporters would be in prison for receiving such information.
The catch in this case is going to be if they were engaged in making the deal before the server was hacked and or before the emails were stolen in which case the issue is not receiving the emails but rather the issue would then be one of them being a co conspirator in a major computer crime.
Edit: Not to mention of course the issue will be what payment was discussed.
If it involved the sanctions or any other quid pro quo between Russia and the United States in the event that Trump would win we have a violation of the Logan Act.

meow2u3

(24,764 posts)
14. We're talking about stolen emails
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 11:47 AM
Oct 2018

Stolen emails are still stolen property. Hacking into someone else's computer to steal property is still a crime.

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
17. Yes I know but I doubt the courts would treat it anymore seriously than they have
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 11:53 AM
Oct 2018

in the past when for example the varies newspapers published information that Manning stole.
No, the real problem will be what payment was under discussion and when was the server hacked and when were the emails stolen and if it was hacked and or the emails were stolen while they were in talks and or soon after said talks then thats going to be a huge problem for all those involved especially Trumps son and his son in law.

Lithos

(26,403 posts)
23. Wrong analogy
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 12:27 PM
Oct 2018

This information/data had value and the Trump team used this value to their advantage. So, a better analogy is - if I steal insider information from a company and use that information in the Stock Market, then it would be illegal because of insider trading.

You can not profit from stolen goods. The case for Free Speech is that the NY Times did not demonstrably profit from the use of this data. Rather they exposed this to the public light.

In this case, this information represented distinct and unique insight which would have cost the Trump organization millions to self-develop, if at all. This value was presented to their campaign by a foreign agency - which is in itself a major violation of Campaign finance due to the valuation (greater than the individual contribution), but also the source - foreign. They then used this information to help target and direct their campaign. Add to this that they probably colluded in advance with the actual theft - Trump's speech directing the Russians to do so, then they become part of the bigger conspiracy.



reACTIONary

(5,770 posts)
24. They were publicly distributed by WikiLeaks ....
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 12:35 PM
Oct 2018

.... and freely available to the general public. Calling attention to information that already exists in the public domain through no fault of your own is not a crime.

If they had anything to do with obtaining and then proving them to WikiLeaks, there would be an argument to be made.

procon

(15,805 posts)
34. But those emails have a monetary value as oppo research, something that campaigns pay
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 01:32 PM
Oct 2018

lots of money to acquire from legitimate companies who suss out political dirt for sale. As a valuable commodity, the emails are no different than any other stolen property.

Also, wouldn't the Dirty Hands doctrine apply? Trump can't claim a defense when he has acted in bad faith regarding the subject matter of the complaint.

calimary

(81,304 posts)
28. When you get a guy like Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court. That's when.
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 01:00 PM
Oct 2018

He'll provide you all the cover and all the back-up you're gonna need when it comes time for THAT elite group (of nine justices - majority CONservative) to vote.

kentuck

(111,099 posts)
4. Nothing is "illegal" in Trump World.
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 10:37 AM
Oct 2018

It's OK to get help from the Russians, so long as it is against Hillary Clinton and the Democrats.

donkeypoofed

(2,187 posts)
5. Un-befriggin-lievable !!
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 10:40 AM
Oct 2018

Guess that's their only defense due to not being able to deny it.

Man, oh Man, but they'd be howling to the moon if Democrats did that!

blugbox

(951 posts)
6. So at the exact same moment, they are running with this:
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 10:43 AM
Oct 2018

Arguing that hacking and conspiring with foreign countries and releasing stolen information to the public is "free speech"

Arguing that a Democrat releasing evidence of Republican crimes to the public = "lock HER up"

I want to scream

Response to MelissaB (Original post)

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
9. Again it can be criminal if the deal was being worked out with the Russians before they hacked the
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 11:33 AM
Oct 2018

server and or before they stole the emails in which case the ones involved become co conspirators to a major computer crime.

cstanleytech

(26,293 posts)
13. I doubt Alito or Roberts would be willing to go that far to cover for truly criminal acts.
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 11:45 AM
Oct 2018

Gorsuch and Kavanaugh? I would not be surprised.
Thomas is the real unknown though because its going to depend on which SCOTUS judge has been doing most of his thinking for him these days now that Scalia is dead.

Hermit-The-Prog

(33,349 posts)
35. remember mcCONnell packed lower courts
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 02:31 PM
Oct 2018

mcCONnell was lead conspirator in obstructing Obama in appointing Federal judges and then packing those benches using twitler.

Kavanaugh's record is 91% rulings in favor of corporations. I expect those are the same types packed during these 2 years.

world wide wally

(21,744 posts)
19. So what if we committed treason.
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 11:56 AM
Oct 2018

What's the problem? We were trying to find out what was in Hillary's emails!
Something wrong with that?

Crash2Parties

(6,017 posts)
20. This is Watergate & they are going to sweep it under the rug.
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 12:03 PM
Oct 2018

There are no more checks & balances.
No "Fourth Estate" either.
America is broken.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
25. And thus it begins
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 12:41 PM
Oct 2018

Mr. Trump will be dogged by his own crimes for a very, very long time, even if it’s all struck down by his Supreme Court. He may stave off accountability in his crimes but he will never hoodwink anyone other than his pathetic base again. He is exposed and will be shunned by those whose admiration he craves. His only recourse will be to wallow in the pigsty of his knuckle dragging minions. I suspect he hates them more than he hates women.

Let him grab their p#*@y.

bluestarone

(16,970 posts)
27. To me THIS is exactly the reason they refused to testify under oath
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 12:58 PM
Oct 2018

NO Perjury!! This is such BULLSHIT!!

knightmaar

(748 posts)
29. " so long as (1) the speaker did not participate in the theft "
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 01:00 PM
Oct 2018

Does that include the speaker ordering the theft on national television?

Because that really sounds like participating ... but I'm not a lawyer.

bdamomma

(63,868 posts)
32. nothing like twisting everything around
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 01:21 PM
Oct 2018

what jerks. making up their own rules while the go on ruining this country.

Thomas Hurt

(13,903 posts)
33. Deny that they did until that lie fails...
Wed Oct 10, 2018, 01:22 PM
Oct 2018

Say that's okay because it isn't illegal until that lie fails, blame Obama, Clinton anyone, cuz President Unindicted Co-conspirator is always someone's victim, when that lie fails, fall back on outlandish conspiracy theories that the gullible mouth breathers will buy.

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