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melman

(7,681 posts)
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:02 PM Oct 2018

Jamal Khashoggi in final interview: Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS

In an interview with Rula Jebreal ...

-----

When MBS arrested all of those princes and others and put them at the Ritz-Carlton—I understand when somebody’s this corrupt, he needs to be arrested. However, there was no due process, no evidence, no transparency. So if he really wants to be a reformist, why not bring evidence to the public? Why not bring transparency where you have really introduced the rule of law and due process? The people will be on his side if he would do that.

I don't think that is in his—he doesn't see that. He doesn't see the need for that. He is still very much… Deep inside him, he is an old-fashioned tribal leader. Look at the Kuwaiti judiciary, which is like a Gulf state; the society is very much close to the Saudi society. But the Kuwaiti judiciary is way more advanced than the Saudi judiciary, way more transparent than the Saudi judiciary.

Why does MBS not see that part of reform? Because it will limit his authoritarian rule, and he doesn’t want that. He doesn't see the need for that. So sometimes I feel that...he wants to enjoy the fruits of First World modernity and Silicon Valley and cinemas and everything, but at the same time he wants also to rule like how his grandfather ruled Saudi Arabia.

That doesn't work. You can't have it both ways.

He wants to have it both ways.

This is what I’m trying to understand: Can you have it both ways?

First of all, there is no political movement in Saudi Arabia that could pressure him, number one. And the world is happy with him. Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else.

https://www.newsweek.com/jamal-khashoggi-secret-interview-saudi-murder-prince-mbs-islam-america-1178489

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Jamal Khashoggi in final interview: Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS (Original Post) melman Oct 2018 OP
Sanders is indeed an inspiration. guillaumeb Oct 2018 #1
+1000 Power 2 the People Oct 2018 #2
I'll play devil's advocate on this specific KSA issue (the Ritz jailing). Socal31 Oct 2018 #3
The bolded parts are the interviewer's questions melman Oct 2018 #5
Ah yes, the familiar taste of egg on my face. Socal31 Oct 2018 #6
You understand that those were Khashoggi's words. Duppers Oct 2018 #10
Mr. Khashoggi did not write this, and we have no idea if Hortensis Oct 2018 #25
Not only that, but Sanders was not the only American willing to stand up to MBS and.... George II Oct 2018 #40
Yes. I don't mind someone pointing out something Hortensis Oct 2018 #42
Message from Bernie: Stop Supporting the War in Yemen Donkees Oct 2018 #4
But but but malaise Oct 2018 #43
Post removed Post removed Oct 2018 #7
K&R dae Oct 2018 #8
I'm happy to see several Senators from both parties calling for the US to invoke the Magnitsky Act.. George II Oct 2018 #9
Do you take issue with Khashoggi's words here? melman Oct 2018 #11
Can't answer the question? (nt) ehrnst Oct 2018 #14
Maybe the question should be phrased properly. Hassin Bin Sober Oct 2018 #27
Maybe you haven't caught up on the conversation. ehrnst Oct 2018 #30
The question makes lots of sense. We don't know if Sanders opposed the version.... George II Oct 2018 #34
Maybe you should stop saying he voted against this legislation being used to go after the Saudis. Hassin Bin Sober Oct 2018 #36
I said he voted against the Magnitzky Act, to which you agreed. Thanks! George II Oct 2018 #38
I wasn't commenting on Khashoggi's words, I was commenting on the Magnitsky Act.... George II Oct 2018 #17
Oh melman Oct 2018 #19
The interview was all-encompassing, not just two sentences in the interview. See my post #18. George II Oct 2018 #20
I think he did vote for the second version of it? No?n/t Brogrizzly Oct 2018 #13
There wasn't a roll call vote for the other bill, it was passed by unanimous consent. However.... George II Oct 2018 #15
That's some convoluted logic. Hassin Bin Sober Oct 2018 #23
Not it's not, but do you have the attendance roster for the session where the revised version? George II Oct 2018 #26
Why keep bringing up a non applicable version of a law that was purposely crafted to apply .... Hassin Bin Sober Oct 2018 #33
The Magnitsky Act was originally passed 92-4. On the other hand.... George II Oct 2018 #37
You need to update your facts. Bernie voted for this. It passed with unanimous consent. Hassin Bin Sober Oct 2018 #22
No he didn't. George II Oct 2018 #24
Bernie voted against the version that removed trade sanctions on human-rights violators Jim Lane Oct 2018 #41
K&R shanny Oct 2018 #12
Could someone help me understand what Bernie Sanders had to do with this article? Nitram Oct 2018 #16
The only reference to Sanders in the article is a quasi-rhetorical question which went unanswered: George II Oct 2018 #18
Perhaps Khashoggi wasn't aware of all the lawmakers involved in the bi-partisan lapucelle Oct 2018 #28
Khashoggi (😪) says at the end of the interview that Bernie was the only person speaking up BlancheSplanchnik Oct 2018 #21
This message was self-deleted by its author lapucelle Oct 2018 #31
Not really, here is what he said: George II Oct 2018 #32
So you do take issue with his words melman Oct 2018 #35
I'm just commenting on what he said in the ONLY two sentences in that long interview.... George II Oct 2018 #39
I'm not taking issue with his words, whatever gave you that idea? George II Oct 2018 #46
Sorry I thought I was just answering the question BlancheSplanchnik Oct 2018 #44
The entire premise is complete bullshit BannonsLiver Oct 2018 #48
Senator Sanders is a great one! ananda Oct 2018 #29
Post removed Post removed Oct 2018 #45
Video: demmiblue Oct 2018 #47

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
1. Sanders is indeed an inspiration.
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:14 PM
Oct 2018

His message and his willingness to stand for progressive principles.

Socal31

(2,484 posts)
3. I'll play devil's advocate on this specific KSA issue (the Ritz jailing).
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:32 PM
Oct 2018

Not picking on Bernie, as I have heard similar cringe-worthy statements from American politicians and pundits, from Left and the wrong. But that first paragraph in bold is extremely arrogant. Who the hell are we to unilaterally demand evidence from the internal politics of another sovereign State? I am certainly no fan of authoritarianism or any sort of theocracy, and the in-custody death and hospitalizations were reprehensible. If international laws are suspected of being broken, there are international institutions to address it.*

I believe relativism is an intellectually lazy way to look at the world, but in this case, it is impossible to not acknowledge the hypocrisy. We lose even more credibility on the world stage when we are locking up refugees and children in cages, or even worse: kidnapping kids, deporting their parents back to a life-threatening situation, and then "losing" the kids in the system. Then we lecture the world on detaining likely corrupt millionaire Wahhabists in a 5-star hotel.





*The extra-judicial, extra-territorial murder of a US resident journalist is far, far different. As is a bomb that was made in the US, delivered from a plane made in the US, flown by a pilot trained in the Nevada desert, hitting a school bus killing scores of innocent children. We even help them select Houthi targets. These incidents require swift, strong unilateral action.

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
5. The bolded parts are the interviewer's questions
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:46 PM
Oct 2018

The interviewer is Rula Jebreal. There are no quotes from Bernie here.

This question doesn't seem to have anything to do with 'us' demanding anything, and this interview is a lot longer than this one question anyway. So, I'm not really sure I understand your take on this. Doesn't really seem to be based on the actual interview.

Socal31

(2,484 posts)
6. Ah yes, the familiar taste of egg on my face.
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:51 PM
Oct 2018

Thank you for setting that straight for me. Will edit!

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
25. Mr. Khashoggi did not write this, and we have no idea if
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:16 PM
Oct 2018

this version expresses his intent.

But in any case, empty words. As an independent Sanders is now powerless to effect any change at all. And, of course, since Trump is president, not a Democrat, and with that Republicans have control of both houses of congress, instead of Democrats, Sanders cannot even join Democrats in their decisions to apply pressure against Saudi Arabia as we should be able to. His chance to help Palestinians depended entirely on electing a majority of Democrats to power, and he lacked that commitment.

George II

(67,782 posts)
40. Not only that, but Sanders was not the only American willing to stand up to MBS and....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 08:18 PM
Oct 2018

....the article cited didn't say anything even close to that.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
42. Yes. I don't mind someone pointing out something
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 05:27 AM
Oct 2018

Sanders may have said or done unless, as in that case, it strikes me as intensely hypocritical or if it wrongly suggests Democrats are remiss in comparison, which is the usual case. With Trump in the White House (!!!) and our congressional minority (!!!) Democrats helpless to stop so much evil, Sanders has used up his credit for life with me, and after.

Donkees

(31,453 posts)
4. Message from Bernie: Stop Supporting the War in Yemen
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 04:42 PM
Oct 2018


Published on Oct 17, 2018
The recent disappearance and likely assassination of Jamal Khashoggi only underscores how urgent it has become for the United States to redefine our relationship with Saudi Arabia and end our support for the war in Yemen.

Response to melman (Original post)

George II

(67,782 posts)
9. I'm happy to see several Senators from both parties calling for the US to invoke the Magnitsky Act..
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 05:51 PM
Oct 2018

...in this case.

Did Sanders ever explain why he voted against it?

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
11. Do you take issue with Khashoggi's words here?
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:19 PM
Oct 2018

If so, please explain how it is you know more about the Saudi situation than he did. Thanks.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,337 posts)
27. Maybe the question should be phrased properly.
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:18 PM
Oct 2018

The version Sanders voted against wouldn’t apply in this Saudi instance. The law only covered Russia.

So the question makes no sense.

Sanders, Carl Levin (D-MI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), and Jack Reed (D-RI) all opposed the previous version BECAUSE it only applied to Russia.

The version used to go after the Saudis passed The Senate with unanimous consent. In other words, Sanders, Carl Levin (D-MI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), and Jack Reed (D-RI) didn’t oppose this version being used.

George II

(67,782 posts)
34. The question makes lots of sense. We don't know if Sanders opposed the version....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:41 PM
Oct 2018

.....being used to go after the Saudis, do we? As you correctly noted, it was passed by unanimous consent:

https://www.senate.gov/reference/glossary_term/unanimous_consent.htm

unanimous consent - A senator may request unanimous consent on the floor to set aside a specified rule of procedure so as to expedite proceedings. If no Senator objects, the Senate permits the action, but if any one senator objects, the request is rejected.

Unanimous consent requests with only immediate effects are routinely granted, but ones affecting the floor schedule, the conditions of considering a bill or other business, or the rights of other senators, are normally not offered, or a floor leader will object to it, until all senators concerned have had an opportunity to inform the leaders that they find it acceptable.


Unless we know who was on the Senate floor when unanimous consent was requested, we don't know which Senators did not object.

George II

(67,782 posts)
17. I wasn't commenting on Khashoggi's words, I was commenting on the Magnitsky Act....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:41 PM
Oct 2018

...does anyone know why he voted against it?

George II

(67,782 posts)
20. The interview was all-encompassing, not just two sentences in the interview. See my post #18.
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:55 PM
Oct 2018

Thank you.

George II

(67,782 posts)
15. There wasn't a roll call vote for the other bill, it was passed by unanimous consent. However....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:40 PM
Oct 2018

....the Global Magnitsky Act (the second one) was merely an extension of the original Act, expanding it from applying to just Russia to all countries. So, one could (not necessarily, though) logically expect anyone against the Act that applied to only Russia to also be against and expanded Act that applied Globally, which includes Russia.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,337 posts)
23. That's some convoluted logic.
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:08 PM
Oct 2018

Bernie and and Carl Levin (D-MI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), and Jack Reed (D-RI) opposed the house version because it only applied to Russia.

They supported the Senate version that expanded the act to the rest of the world. You know, kinda how this version can now be used to go after the Saudis.

George II

(67,782 posts)
26. Not it's not, but do you have the attendance roster for the session where the revised version?
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:17 PM
Oct 2018

....it passed by unanimous consent (i.e., no roll call vote).

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,337 posts)
33. Why keep bringing up a non applicable version of a law that was purposely crafted to apply ....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:41 PM
Oct 2018

.... to Russia and only Russia? We are talking about SAUDI ARABIA. The version of the law enacted in 2012 couldn’t touch Saudi Arabia or anyone other than Russia.

You might as well discuss the Volstead Act. It has about as much relevance.

George II

(67,782 posts)
37. The Magnitsky Act was originally passed 92-4. On the other hand....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:48 PM
Oct 2018

....that act was expanded to apply to every country in the world, including the one noted in the original Act.

The Volstead Act has nothing to do with either Saudi Arabia or Russia, unless you're talking about Russian Vodka.

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
41. Bernie voted against the version that removed trade sanctions on human-rights violators
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 11:12 PM
Oct 2018

Caveat: I don't know if this was his reasoning, but it's certainly plausible. The four Nay votes in the Senate were cast by Carl Levin, Jack Reed, Bernie Sanders, and Sheldon Whitehouse, all of whom are supporters of human rights.

More detail: Our story begins in 1974 with the Jackson-Vanik amendment. From the linked Wikipedia article:

The Jackson–Vanik amendment to the Trade Act of 1974 is a 1974 provision in United States federal law intended to affect U.S. trade relations with countries with non-market economies (originally, countries of the Communist bloc) that restrict freedom of emigration and other human rights.

The amendment, named after its major co-sponsors Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson of Washington in the Senate and Charles A. Vanik of Ohio in the House of Representatives, both Democrats, is contained in Title IV of the Trade Act of 1974. The Trade Act of 1974 passed both houses of the United States Congress unanimously, and President Gerald Ford signed the bill into law with the adopted amendment on January 3, 1975. Over time, a number of countries were granted conditional normal trade relations subject to annual review, and a number of countries were liberated from the amendment.

. . . .

The amendment denies most favored nation status to certain countries with non-market economies that restrict emigration, which is considered a human right. Permanent normal trade relations can be extended to a country subject to the law only if the President determines that it complies with the freedom of emigration requirements of the amendment. However, the President has the authority to grant a yearly waiver to the provisions of Jackson-Vanik, and these waivers were granted to the People's Republic of China starting in the late 1970s and in later decades, to Vietnam and Laos.


What does this have to do with the Magnitsky Act? Well, for some reason that I'm not privy to, the Magnitsky Act wasn't presented as a stand-alone piece of legislation. Instead, per the Wikipedia article on the Magnitsky Act:

In November 2012, provisions of the Magnitsky bill were attached to a House bill (H.R. 6156) normalizing trade with Russia (i.e., repealing the Jackson–Vanik amendment) and Moldova.[11] On December 6, 2012, the U.S. Senate passed the House version of the law, 92-4.[8]


I'll hazard a guess that, in the Congressional sausage-making, a deal was cut. On the one hand, there were legislators who wanted to punish the specific individuals who'd been involved in Magnitsky's murder. (The Obama administration later released a list with 18 names.) On the other hand, there were legislators who, probably responding to corporate pressure, wanted to facilitate trade with Russia in general, because there was money to be made. Four Senators (and 43 Representatives, mostly Democrats) disagreed with the resulting compromise.

Nitram

(22,877 posts)
16. Could someone help me understand what Bernie Sanders had to do with this article?
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:41 PM
Oct 2018

I couldn't find any reference to him at all.

George II

(67,782 posts)
18. The only reference to Sanders in the article is a quasi-rhetorical question which went unanswered:
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:46 PM
Oct 2018
This is what I’m trying to understand: Can you have it both ways?

First of all, there is no political movement in Saudi Arabia that could pressure him, number one. And the world is happy with him. Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else.


The article doesn't say whether or not there was anyone else. In fact, it doesn't even say in what manner Sanders "put pressure on MBS".

BlancheSplanchnik

(20,219 posts)
21. Khashoggi (😪) says at the end of the interview that Bernie was the only person speaking up
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 06:57 PM
Oct 2018

speaking critically at the time about MBS and the Saudi War in Yemen.

The OP headline puts it a little awkwardly.

Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #21)

George II

(67,782 posts)
32. Not really, here is what he said:
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:28 PM
Oct 2018

"Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else."

In other words, he only saw Sanders, he never said Sanders was the ONLY one (there were others).

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
35. So you do take issue with his words
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 07:41 PM
Oct 2018

How is it that you know more about the Saudi situation than Jamal Khashoggi did?

I mean, that really seems like kind of an incredible thing to assert. Astounding even.

Still, that does seem to be what you're saying here, so surely you can explain how it is that you do. Thanks so much.

George II

(67,782 posts)
39. I'm just commenting on what he said in the ONLY two sentences in that long interview....
Sat Oct 20, 2018, 08:04 PM
Oct 2018

....that applied to Sanders. And neither said anything close to what you said in your subject line. Why did you said in that subject line that he said "only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS"?

To review, those two sentences are "Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else."

Further, I said nothing about my knowledge about the Saudi situation whatsoever, nor did I even address Mr. Khashoggi's knowledge of the Saudi situation. Where did I you see that?

That being said, there's really nothing else to explain, but I have clarified the two sentences referring to Sanders elsewhere in this discussion, I'm sure you read that clarification.

You're quite welcome.

George II

(67,782 posts)
46. I'm not taking issue with his words, whatever gave you that idea?
Sun Oct 21, 2018, 10:57 AM
Oct 2018

However, if there's anything I do take issue with is your portrayal of his words by rewriting them in the subject line.

Here is what he really said:

"Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else."

Here is what you SAID he said:

"Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS"

Two completely different ideas. He didn't say that Sanders was the ONLY one willing to stand up to him, he said that Sanders was the only one he SAW standing up to him. As we know, there are many others who have stood up to him for quite some time.

I suppose I could say that YOU are the one who took issue with his words, so much so that you felt the need to rewrite them. Why did you do that?

I think you should edit your subject line to conform with what he actually said in that interview, not what you'd like him to have said.

Thanks so much.

BannonsLiver

(16,448 posts)
48. The entire premise is complete bullshit
Tue Oct 23, 2018, 03:49 PM
Oct 2018

If Khashoggi thought that, he was mistaken, with all due respect.

Response to melman (Original post)

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Jamal Khashoggi in final ...