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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJamal Khashoggi in final interview: Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS
In an interview with Rula Jebreal ...
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When MBS arrested all of those princes and others and put them at the Ritz-CarltonI understand when somebodys this corrupt, he needs to be arrested. However, there was no due process, no evidence, no transparency. So if he really wants to be a reformist, why not bring evidence to the public? Why not bring transparency where you have really introduced the rule of law and due process? The people will be on his side if he would do that.
I don't think that is in hishe doesn't see that. He doesn't see the need for that. He is still very much
Deep inside him, he is an old-fashioned tribal leader. Look at the Kuwaiti judiciary, which is like a Gulf state; the society is very much close to the Saudi society. But the Kuwaiti judiciary is way more advanced than the Saudi judiciary, way more transparent than the Saudi judiciary.
Why does MBS not see that part of reform? Because it will limit his authoritarian rule, and he doesnt want that. He doesn't see the need for that. So sometimes I feel that...he wants to enjoy the fruits of First World modernity and Silicon Valley and cinemas and everything, but at the same time he wants also to rule like how his grandfather ruled Saudi Arabia.
That doesn't work. You can't have it both ways.
He wants to have it both ways.
This is what Im trying to understand: Can you have it both ways?
First of all, there is no political movement in Saudi Arabia that could pressure him, number one. And the world is happy with him. Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else.
https://www.newsweek.com/jamal-khashoggi-secret-interview-saudi-murder-prince-mbs-islam-america-1178489
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)His message and his willingness to stand for progressive principles.
Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)Socal31
(2,484 posts)Not picking on Bernie, as I have heard similar cringe-worthy statements from American politicians and pundits, from Left and the wrong. But that first paragraph in bold is extremely arrogant. Who the hell are we to unilaterally demand evidence from the internal politics of another sovereign State? I am certainly no fan of authoritarianism or any sort of theocracy, and the in-custody death and hospitalizations were reprehensible. If international laws are suspected of being broken, there are international institutions to address it.*
I believe relativism is an intellectually lazy way to look at the world, but in this case, it is impossible to not acknowledge the hypocrisy. We lose even more credibility on the world stage when we are locking up refugees and children in cages, or even worse: kidnapping kids, deporting their parents back to a life-threatening situation, and then "losing" the kids in the system. Then we lecture the world on detaining likely corrupt millionaire Wahhabists in a 5-star hotel.
*The extra-judicial, extra-territorial murder of a US resident journalist is far, far different. As is a bomb that was made in the US, delivered from a plane made in the US, flown by a pilot trained in the Nevada desert, hitting a school bus killing scores of innocent children. We even help them select Houthi targets. These incidents require swift, strong unilateral action.
melman
(7,681 posts)The interviewer is Rula Jebreal. There are no quotes from Bernie here.
This question doesn't seem to have anything to do with 'us' demanding anything, and this interview is a lot longer than this one question anyway. So, I'm not really sure I understand your take on this. Doesn't really seem to be based on the actual interview.
Socal31
(2,484 posts)Thank you for setting that straight for me. Will edit!
Duppers
(28,126 posts)Not Bernie's.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)this version expresses his intent.
But in any case, empty words. As an independent Sanders is now powerless to effect any change at all. And, of course, since Trump is president, not a Democrat, and with that Republicans have control of both houses of congress, instead of Democrats, Sanders cannot even join Democrats in their decisions to apply pressure against Saudi Arabia as we should be able to. His chance to help Palestinians depended entirely on electing a majority of Democrats to power, and he lacked that commitment.
George II
(67,782 posts)....the article cited didn't say anything even close to that.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Sanders may have said or done unless, as in that case, it strikes me as intensely hypocritical or if it wrongly suggests Democrats are remiss in comparison, which is the usual case. With Trump in the White House (!!!) and our congressional minority (!!!) Democrats helpless to stop so much evil, Sanders has used up his credit for life with me, and after.
Donkees
(31,453 posts)Published on Oct 17, 2018
The recent disappearance and likely assassination of Jamal Khashoggi only underscores how urgent it has become for the United States to redefine our relationship with Saudi Arabia and end our support for the war in Yemen.
malaise
(269,157 posts)The US has weapons to sell-who cares if some non-white people are killed?
Response to melman (Original post)
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George II
(67,782 posts)...in this case.
Did Sanders ever explain why he voted against it?
melman
(7,681 posts)If so, please explain how it is you know more about the Saudi situation than he did. Thanks.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts)The version Sanders voted against wouldnt apply in this Saudi instance. The law only covered Russia.
So the question makes no sense.
Sanders, Carl Levin (D-MI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), and Jack Reed (D-RI) all opposed the previous version BECAUSE it only applied to Russia.
The version used to go after the Saudis passed The Senate with unanimous consent. In other words, Sanders, Carl Levin (D-MI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), and Jack Reed (D-RI) didnt oppose this version being used.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Perhaps things might make sense to you if you read the following:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11301342
George II
(67,782 posts).....being used to go after the Saudis, do we? As you correctly noted, it was passed by unanimous consent:
https://www.senate.gov/reference/glossary_term/unanimous_consent.htm
unanimous consent - A senator may request unanimous consent on the floor to set aside a specified rule of procedure so as to expedite proceedings. If no Senator objects, the Senate permits the action, but if any one senator objects, the request is rejected.
Unanimous consent requests with only immediate effects are routinely granted, but ones affecting the floor schedule, the conditions of considering a bill or other business, or the rights of other senators, are normally not offered, or a floor leader will object to it, until all senators concerned have had an opportunity to inform the leaders that they find it acceptable.
Unless we know who was on the Senate floor when unanimous consent was requested, we don't know which Senators did not object.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)...does anyone know why he voted against it?
But this thread is about an interview with Jamal Khashoggi. There's a link and everything.
George II
(67,782 posts)Thank you.
Brogrizzly
(145 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)....the Global Magnitsky Act (the second one) was merely an extension of the original Act, expanding it from applying to just Russia to all countries. So, one could (not necessarily, though) logically expect anyone against the Act that applied to only Russia to also be against and expanded Act that applied Globally, which includes Russia.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts)Bernie and and Carl Levin (D-MI), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), and Jack Reed (D-RI) opposed the house version because it only applied to Russia.
They supported the Senate version that expanded the act to the rest of the world. You know, kinda how this version can now be used to go after the Saudis.
George II
(67,782 posts)....it passed by unanimous consent (i.e., no roll call vote).
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts).... to Russia and only Russia? We are talking about SAUDI ARABIA. The version of the law enacted in 2012 couldnt touch Saudi Arabia or anyone other than Russia.
You might as well discuss the Volstead Act. It has about as much relevance.
George II
(67,782 posts)....that act was expanded to apply to every country in the world, including the one noted in the original Act.
The Volstead Act has nothing to do with either Saudi Arabia or Russia, unless you're talking about Russian Vodka.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Jim Lane
(11,175 posts)Caveat: I don't know if this was his reasoning, but it's certainly plausible. The four Nay votes in the Senate were cast by Carl Levin, Jack Reed, Bernie Sanders, and Sheldon Whitehouse, all of whom are supporters of human rights.
More detail: Our story begins in 1974 with the Jackson-Vanik amendment. From the linked Wikipedia article:
The amendment, named after its major co-sponsors Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson of Washington in the Senate and Charles A. Vanik of Ohio in the House of Representatives, both Democrats, is contained in Title IV of the Trade Act of 1974. The Trade Act of 1974 passed both houses of the United States Congress unanimously, and President Gerald Ford signed the bill into law with the adopted amendment on January 3, 1975. Over time, a number of countries were granted conditional normal trade relations subject to annual review, and a number of countries were liberated from the amendment.
. . . .
The amendment denies most favored nation status to certain countries with non-market economies that restrict emigration, which is considered a human right. Permanent normal trade relations can be extended to a country subject to the law only if the President determines that it complies with the freedom of emigration requirements of the amendment. However, the President has the authority to grant a yearly waiver to the provisions of Jackson-Vanik, and these waivers were granted to the People's Republic of China starting in the late 1970s and in later decades, to Vietnam and Laos.
What does this have to do with the Magnitsky Act? Well, for some reason that I'm not privy to, the Magnitsky Act wasn't presented as a stand-alone piece of legislation. Instead, per the Wikipedia article on the Magnitsky Act:
I'll hazard a guess that, in the Congressional sausage-making, a deal was cut. On the one hand, there were legislators who wanted to punish the specific individuals who'd been involved in Magnitsky's murder. (The Obama administration later released a list with 18 names.) On the other hand, there were legislators who, probably responding to corporate pressure, wanted to facilitate trade with Russia in general, because there was money to be made. Four Senators (and 43 Representatives, mostly Democrats) disagreed with the resulting compromise.
Nitram
(22,877 posts)I couldn't find any reference to him at all.
George II
(67,782 posts)First of all, there is no political movement in Saudi Arabia that could pressure him, number one. And the world is happy with him. Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else.
The article doesn't say whether or not there was anyone else. In fact, it doesn't even say in what manner Sanders "put pressure on MBS".
lapucelle
(18,311 posts)joint resolution introduced and passed in both chambers of Congress (in the House by unanimous consent). It's a shame Ro Khanna wasn't also singled out for praise.
https://www.vox.com/world/2018/3/20/17144332/senate-yemen-saudi-arabia-sanders-lee-murphy
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-concurrent-resolution/81/cosponsors
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/senate-joint-resolution/54/cosponsors
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)speaking critically at the time about MBS and the Saudi War in Yemen.
The OP headline puts it a little awkwardly.
Response to BlancheSplanchnik (Reply #21)
lapucelle This message was self-deleted by its author.
George II
(67,782 posts)"Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else."
In other words, he only saw Sanders, he never said Sanders was the ONLY one (there were others).
melman
(7,681 posts)How is it that you know more about the Saudi situation than Jamal Khashoggi did?
I mean, that really seems like kind of an incredible thing to assert. Astounding even.
Still, that does seem to be what you're saying here, so surely you can explain how it is that you do. Thanks so much.
George II
(67,782 posts)....that applied to Sanders. And neither said anything close to what you said in your subject line. Why did you said in that subject line that he said "only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS"?
To review, those two sentences are "Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else."
Further, I said nothing about my knowledge about the Saudi situation whatsoever, nor did I even address Mr. Khashoggi's knowledge of the Saudi situation. Where did I you see that?
That being said, there's really nothing else to explain, but I have clarified the two sentences referring to Sanders elsewhere in this discussion, I'm sure you read that clarification.
You're quite welcome.
George II
(67,782 posts)However, if there's anything I do take issue with is your portrayal of his words by rewriting them in the subject line.
Here is what he really said:
"Do you see anybody in America except for Bernie Sanders who is calling for putting pressure on MBS? I only saw Bernie Sanders, but no one else."
Here is what you SAID he said:
"Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To MBS"
Two completely different ideas. He didn't say that Sanders was the ONLY one willing to stand up to him, he said that Sanders was the only one he SAW standing up to him. As we know, there are many others who have stood up to him for quite some time.
I suppose I could say that YOU are the one who took issue with his words, so much so that you felt the need to rewrite them. Why did you do that?
I think you should edit your subject line to conform with what he actually said in that interview, not what you'd like him to have said.
Thanks so much.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Which was, How is Bernie involved here.
BannonsLiver
(16,448 posts)If Khashoggi thought that, he was mistaken, with all due respect.
ananda
(28,876 posts)Thank you!
Response to melman (Original post)
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