They need a swift kick by anyone willing to kick! Off the bus!

nt

doing it. I have no problem with him kicking off the guilty ones, but I've always hated group imposed punishments ever since I was in the 7th grade and our teacher made the entire class sit out lunch in detention for three days because ONE student threw something across the room and wouldn't confess until three days later. Most of us were way more angry at the teacher than we were at the guilty student.

I would not be calling this man a hero, unless I am wrong about the circumstances.

That’s why group punishments are so effective.
Especially when they are about offenses against civil society.
They discourage complacency.
Next time, the silent moderate may take some action to fix the situation.

everything? Next time somebody gets murdered in your community, let's just go start randomly arresting folks until the guilty party confesses?

they already do that for a lot of crimes.

I don't have a problem with throwing most people off the bus because it was just an inconvenience to them. They just waited for the next bus or walked to their destination.

We aren't talking about charging everyone in a protest with rioting because a couple of people got too roudy.

This type of thing should happen more often.

Or someone they know.

It's one of the few punishments that will work. Maybe not the first time, but when a circumstance occurs and the guilty party won't come forward, maybe the majority of the group won't want to pay the price for something they didn't do, they'll cop on the guilty ones.

Punishing everybody to get a few to turn into narks? Authoritarians everywhere would be proud. Guess I just subscribe to the belief that the innocent should not pay for the crimes of the guilty. There's a reason our species has largely ditched such punishment philosophies, except, apparently, for many people on this supposedly liberal discussion board.

There was no CRIME. Nobody was arrested. Nobody was detained. Nobody was fined.

They had to wait for the next bus because they were not behaving in a way society would be proud of.

You can't even call it a punishment. It was an inconvenience. It made the country stop and think.

Think of it as a form of civil action.

Is it your position that demonstrators shouldn't be able to inconvenience a city? After all, they are snarling traffic for everybody. Police officers have to give up days off from their families to stand guard.

Civil Disobedience by definition inconveniences people who had nothing to do with why they are protesting.

Methinks you are too thin skinned for this world. You won't change anything by being polite to the majority. Sorry.

This is not about fighting da man. Don't blow it up into something it's not. My position in this has been the same from the beginning. The ones who wouldn't move should have been kicked off. I wasn't there and don't really know the specifics, and neither were you. However, I have ridden the bus enough to know that there are quite a few circumstances in which people on the bus may not have been aware of what was going on or were far enough removed from it to where they assumed the bus driver could handle it and deal with those responsible to where they didn't speak up, and if that is the case, I don't believe kicking them off was the right thing to do. And while you may just see it as a minor inconvenience, it can actually be a big deal if you make somebody late to work or miss an important appointment.

I get it. Things like this make you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside because you get to feel a rush of satisfaction at seeing your idea of instant justice meted out on everybody who you perceive as being less woke and evolved than you. But me thinks you need to learn some temperance and objectivity and not turn everything in the world into an us vs. them scenario.

So no one should say anything to the authorities?

I bet if you were a victim of crime, you would sing a different tune.

I have been the victim of a crime. Several in fact. Never once did I want the police to go around and start punishing innocent people to get to the ones who did it to me.

Are you saying that you would be okay with that? You think the fact that you were victimized gives you the right to victimize others in your pursuit of justice?

At no point did I even infer that Innocents should be punished.

The point is, that you seem to be way bent out of shape over people informing on others who commits misdeeds. If people do not inform on those who do wrong, THEN Innocents can, or will be punished, and it will be no one's fault except those who keep their mouths shut. THAT is real injustice.

Once again.....the point you used the term "nark" is very, very telling.

Never ONCE did I say I had any objection to anybody voluntarily informing on others who commit misdeeds, and I challenge you to find a single post where I said any such thing.

I said I had an objection to imposing group punishments ON INNOCENT PEOPLE to force people to rat out and turn on others, especially those that could be their friends or family.

No doubt, bumper stickers are often the best nuance we're capable of.

at least in the eyes of the authorities, the whole legion (battalion, troop, ?) was forced to kill 1/10th of its soldiers.

Nowadays, decimate is meant to reduce by 90%, not 10%.

In a crowded bus, in which I have been many a time, the passengers on one end haven't the faintest clue what is going on at the other end. Unless the bus driver had specifically asked people at each door to make room somewhere for the guy in the wheelchair, and they ALL refused (the article didn't specify), his "a pox on all your houses" was not really justified. He let his disgust at the initial refusal to help the disabled guy guide his action. France being France, I'm sure there was a hefty decision among the passengers being kicked off the bus (those that understood what was going on, that is), with socio-political overtones dominating the heated discussion (Asterix comics are truly a running commentary on the French as well as historical entertainment for children).

I could very well not have the slightest idea what's going on, and I'm liable to do this radical thing called place my trust in the bus driver to know how to do his job and handle the situation accordingly.

“No-one wanted to move despite the access ramp. When he saw that, the RATP driver quickly intervened. He got up and said, ‘everyone off’. “Everyone did it, but some people did grumble a bit.” Mr Le Berre said the driver told the passengers: “Everyone might need a wheelchair one day.”

At one time for medical reasons I used buses when I needed, carrying a small baby, and on a route with a bus along once an hour during daylight, with temperatures frequently over 100 degrees that summer. Tossing passengers off in THOSE circumstances would be very bad.

Here, though, my best guess without researching is that buses in Paris's 17th arrondissement are far more frequent. Every 10-15 minutes would not be unusual for an urban bus system. Just look at all the people on that street.

Link to tweet

He and his unit had captured a pair of partisan women in Russia or the Ukraine, and the officer ordered my friend's father to execute them. He said he was not going to fire upon two unarmed women. The officer said he could either shoot them, or join them when he found another volunteer. Another guy in the unit spoke up and said, hold on here, we are not going to start shooting our own guys, I'll do it. He took the women around the side of a barn they were at. No one saw what actually happened after that, but there was a burst of gunfire, and he came back and said the deed was done. My friend's father lived on to become the father of my friend. At least he came back in one piece. My own father in law was Göring's poor slob on the farm (" Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?&quot . He did not return to his family farm in one piece.

Did the second one save those women as well as his felllows? Your FIL was no fool.

In the police station event, what I read was that the commander of the village police force (and perhaps another high-up) refused to lead the massacre but came out and explained the situation to the men, that they were to head out to massacre hundreds of people of all ages from somewhere else, and said to obey or not would be their choice. That was when the men standing silent in line just...continued to stand silent in line because that's what they were all doing. Once the massacre started, a couple or few ran off into the woods, but the others finished the job, which I think may have taken more than one day.

After the war this group was studied, and the main reason these very normal men all went out and murdered babies and children in their mothers' arms, the mothers, and everyone else, was loyalty to their comrades, to their group: They all didn't want to let down each other, and at the point of decision they were all standing silent waiting to see what their fellow officers would do. What happened to their commander, who in making his own decision had to leave them without leadership, wasn't in the account I read.

He was sent as cannon fodder to Stalingrad where he lay dying in minus 40° cold, one leg blown off by a Soviet artillery shell. A retreating unit noticed he was somehow still alive, and got what was left of him out to field hospital. He returned to his farm at age 18, useless as a farmer. He studied to become a banker, and for the rest of his life, stayed with a small local bank, helping other farmers with loans so they could stay afloat. He was appreciated for it, too, because at his funeral in the tiny town in the farmland of northwestern Germany, FOUR HUNDRED people came, almost all of which were not friends or relatives.

The only thing he really hoped for out of life over which he had no control whatsoever was that all of his grandchildren should be girls, so they would never have to serve in the military (he got his wish, by the way).

I remember you telling me part of that story. I hope MrsDFW and the kids are all doing well. With any good fortune, I'll make it back to Germany one day. Thanks to you and your ex-cop friend, I had a wonderful time. All the best

Mrs. and I just got back from a weekend in the Frankfurt area. Our younger daughter had a baby in May, so we get down there when we can.

I was in Berlin briefly 2 weeks ago, but I didn't see our mutual ex-BKA pal. Since he now does security for the German Jewish community, I suspect he has his hands full these days, unfortunately.

I can't believe we'll be leaving for the States in 7 weeks. It seems like I have about 3 months of stuff to do before then.

Things are the same for me, now paying off my trip but loved it.

Yes, I'm sure his hands are very full, sadly.

His daughter (my wife) decided that all she wanted to do was be a social worker. That came from somewhere.

"In 1964, Kitty Genovese was murdered outside her New York apartment building. Some of her neighbors heard her screams but didn't call for help. This lesson explains the social phenomenon known as the bystander effect, which helps to explain why Genovese's neighbors didn't help her."
https://study.com/academy/lesson/defining-the-bystander-effect-kitty-genovese-murder-research-by-latane-and-darley.html

First off, if you know Paris, you know the buses are almost always crowded, and second, it it were only half full, there wouldn't have been an issue with space for a wheelchair. I found the incident depressing, because when I travel on public transportation here in Europe (in Paris, ALWAYS bus or Métro, taxis take forever in traffic and cost ten to twenty times a bus fare), people are ALWAYS making room for baby buggies, wheelchairs, whatever. This really stood out like a sore thumb, and I'm sure the driver thought the same.

You weren't there! And while some passengers were being jerks, the others didn't do anything to help the man or his helper...which makes them jerks, too!!!



In the 7th grade you didn't suffer because of what the teacher did...your class got detention because there was ONE asshole who didn't stand up and take responsibility for their actions!

That is, it shouldn't be the norm, but the fact that he did this, created a viral story, which brought attention to it. And probably lit a flame of awareness for Parisian bus passengers for future. So the end justified the means, in this one case.

But of course, I was thinking that there could have been seniors, or even other disabled persons on that bus that had nothing to do with it. It was an emotional decision by the driver. I agree with some here that think he could have just ordered out those in the front area that were not making room, let him board, then took off. Instead of the entire bus. But I still think the fact that the story and its message transcended that one incident, made it worthwhile.

about the issue at hand. I can't argue that. But I know that if I'm on my way to work, and I get kicked off and left stranded because of what somebody else did, the last thing I'm gong to be thinking about is the positive message this will bring about. You know, I paid for my ticket, I work my job like a good citizen, just trying to get by, and I don't deserve to be made an example of because somebody else is an asshole. My rights matter too.

Especially at those front passengers. I may have a different viewpoint if I were one of those other riders too.
I was just saying that the overall result was probably a positive, in balance.

There's absolutely no reason for these posters to jump to the conclusion that the bus was crowded. It may have been half a dozen people and driver did see them all.

If you see that someone cannot get on a bus because passengers are blocking the access and refuse to move, wouldn’t you simply, and politely, point out the problem and ask them to make space? It’s understandable that people do not want to get involved, but I notice that people in this country get applauded for standing up for minorities who are being harrassed by white people.

And made those responsible move or get off. Radical solution I know. But knee jerk reactions are just so much more entertaining and fun to laugh about later, even if it means some of those people were late to work and potentially threatening their livelihoods.

Or we could adopt the attitude so many Germans had when it came to the Jews. So many pleaded ignorance of the true purpose of the death camps or they knew or at least suspected but did nothing anyways.

I'm willing to admit that no one, including me, can make a final judgement here because it's hard to judge the particulars of this situation without having been there. If everybody on that bus was guilty of not getting out of the way, then they deserved to get kicked off.

I'm just saying that in my experience with buses, it's entirely possible that there were many people on that bus who either didn't understand what was going on or were far enough away from it to where they assumed that the driver would do his job and handle it accordingly, as he is paid to do.

At this point, we can only speculate as to how many of the passenger's were aware of what was going on.

<eot>

Also, some might choose to remain silent because they actually have this crazy notion that it's the bus driver's job to handle these situations accordingly without going apeshit.

they still relinquished control to another. So I think you're proving my point. They objected to their own inconvenience, the inconvenience of others not so much.

relinquishing your control to another who is legally and morally responsible for getting you to your destination and your safety. It is his job. And if he doesn't want to do that, find another job.

Instead you sat there and took someone else's punishment because you wouldn't speak up. You chose to be part of the problem and NOT the solution, probably because it would have been uncomfortable for you. Called a snitch? Teacher' pet?

You made your choice willingly by protecting someone who broke the rules. You have no right to be angry. You had free will and chose what you saw as the more comfortable route.

Love the assumptions you make here. Not only did I not I not know who had thrown the object, I didn't even see it being thrown, and neither did the overwhelming majority of the class. But don't let that stop you from talking out your ass.

Fix the cause not the blame.

You said you were all more angry with the teacher instead of your classmates, so yes, it does apply to you.

Let's just punish people at random every time there's a crime because we must fix the cause as you say. And if innocent people get caught up in the dragnet, it's their own fault for being angry about it, because there's fixing the cause to be done.

Let it go.

The bus drive did the right thing. People need to wake up to what is going on around them. The bus drive had limited options - I think he chose a good one.

I just used it as an example. Drahthaardogs decided to get all righteous about it, so I responded to demonstrate a principle, not because I'm still fuming about it.

And if you think otherwise, you haven't spent much time on a bus lately.

nt

Merci beaucoup

In the future.

However, for the driver to be so mad that he kicked everybody else off, there had to be a good reason. I'll defer to the judgment and actions of the driver on this one.

Good for the driver! (I guess the bus didn't have an area at front set aside for wheelchairs? I've been on some buses with that.)

I've been on buses where the men didn't give up their seats to an elderly or pregnant woman, if you can believe it. So I did. And the men felt no shame, from the looks of it.

I have this condition as well. The last time I traveled, it was sheer hell.

I ended up in an airport as the connecting flight was missed.

Their plan for me was to park me in a wheelchair in the boarding area overnight.

After much bitching, they (UA) finally arranged a room overnight in a city that was 40 miles away.

When I got home, I sued UA and received a coupon for a free drink and $100!

I noted when I got home that my foot was all swollen and red. I ended up at the ER. They thought my foot had become infected from a cut that I got trying to board a shuttle. They IV'd me fearing the worst.

I still have the guy's name that claimed I was "just fine".

Just fine.

Yeah right!!

to the Air Carrier Access Act because treatment such as you received shows that substantive changes are still needed. I’m certain they would appreciate hearing your personal experience at being treated so terribly.

What happened to you is wrong.

More info here:

https://www.unitedspinal.org/wp-content/uploads/AIR-CARRIER-ACCESS-AMENDMENTS.pdf

I will check into this.

I'm still angry and this happened to me several years ago!

No one should be subjected to such uncaring treatment.

I suppose a person in that situation needs someone else to fight for them during travel. Travel is bad enough for non-disabled (non-challenged?) people...everyone's tired, in a hurry, can get pushy. I can only imagine if you have an issue that gets in the way of them.

Although group punishments--the shifting of responsibility from the guilty to all--always create resentment amongst the innocent...

VOTE 2018!

I can tell you that the inhabitants can be a little grumpy and ungracious, and the person requesting the solution can get very demanding. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the passengers still didn't get it and grumbled that they were treated rudely and will be late for their destinations. It isn't all wine and roses in the City of Lights.

Not sure how it usually goes in France, but here in L.A. when a disabled, injured, ancient, or otherwise needy person needs one of the front seats, the bus doesn't move 'til somebody moves out of those seats.

Thanks! That's as it should be.

And those who wouldn't make room were punished by being made to get off. Sounds like an equitable solution. The decent people were not punished; they were going to get off anyway. The swine were punished because they did not want to get off.

All the tRumps are

On my bus, there is a certain section of seats that are accessible and designated for seniors and disabled. There is a sign advising that people in those seats need to move if necessary. Is it different in France? Why did everyone need to get off the bus?

In general, it's younger riders, mostly tech company workers, sitting while people who are obviously much older stand. I once gave up a seat to a person with a cast while people clearly twenty years younger than I am sat there on their devices. One morning when I was really tired and the bus was an hour late, a young woman beat me to an open seat and I had to.stand.the whole way. I said something to her when we got off and instead of showing any sympathy she just spat at me that I should have asked!! No.....you should always offer a seat to someone who looks as if they need it more.

Even if I had been on the bus wanting the help them get on I would gladly leave just to see this happen.

I have to say I'm impressed.

You do not see the accommodations that are common here. Of course many of their buildings and roads are hundreds of years old.

I find the French no less polite than Americans. And like the US the level of politeness increases as the city/town gets smaller. Granted they are more private and standoffish, but the live in a very crowded environment.

Those critiquing the bus drive should keep a few things in mind. The French would, in my somewhat limited experience, take exception to being told individually to get off the bus. But when the driver said Terminus they knew what that meant. I could be all wrong here. But I have learned that the French culture, and all other European cultures I have visited are way different than ours.

I learned the hard way not to judge their cultural practices through my Americans lens.

Here in Germany, many cities have their own local ordinances. My wife and I were just down in Frankfurt for the weekend. The trams there have extended, street-level platforms that open when the doors open, so that wheelchairs and baby strollers can roll right off. Where we live in Düsseldorf, they are SOL on the trams, although the trains, even the local trains, have wheelchair ramps and the personnel to set them up. Curiously, they rarely, if ever, have anyone around to help with luggage. And if you're in any way disabled, don't even THINK of visiting Brussels.

Munich, Freiburg and Heidelberg. Like in France, in which I have more experience, I seem to remember that new public construction and transportation had some accommodations. Nothing like the US. But I can’t imagine getting around those old cities while disabled.

By the way, Freiburg is a hidden gem. Heidleberg is great, but hardly hidden.

Heidelberg gets all the fame because it's an hour's train ride from the Frankfurt airport, and Freiburg needs some planning to get to. Europe in general was behind the USA in accommodating the disabled. Some places are trying to make up for it full speed, and some are struggling with the fact that their cities are over 1000 years old, and some catching up is defying their logistics.

Trying to make them accommodating? Wow.

Have a nice evening. Pretty late over there.

I have decided to do the unheard of tomorrow (take the day off). I was supposed to fly up to Denmark, but I had maybe 4 days "off" in October, and only one of them was on a weekend. I need a breather.

Say you guys never work!




Tuesday night will be my long night!

Good night.

Right, no one ever works over here. We have two hundred million invisible Mexicans who do all the work for us, and we just sit in cafés all day long and complain about the weather. How DID they figure that out if they have never been here? Did they hear it on Fox Noise? THAT must be it!

The more republicans have rhetorically attacked Europe.

Don’t get me wrong, I do not think Europe is inherently better. Been there enough to know they have their own intractable problems. Unlike some liberals who see it as a paradise.

But you social Democracy is worth playing with here.

But asking for common sense practicality is about as effective in countries with three times as many civil "servants" as they need, with jobs and pensions guaranteed for life, as it is when asking it of Republicans.

It is pretty apparent that government is a way to often used to keep people employed in the European countries I have visited. I guess I have spent about 6 months there between work and vacations. Not much I know. But more than most Americans. And I speak some French. Not much, but enough.

But it is also obvious that they really want to insure their folks have a decent life, or at least don’t live in squalor, although I have seen examples where that has failed in rural France and Italy.

But republicans want the opposite. They are happy to have our people live in squalor if the rich folks taxes stay low and the rural poor remain convinced that god is for small government.

My thoughts in the migrant crisis you are having would not be popular on DU. Suffice to say, in my experience, it is not at all analogous to the situation we have with South America although most Americans of both parties can’t see the difference. Perhaps you disagree? Would be interested in you correction if I am wrong.

Syria is not Honduras, never was. Some thirty years ago, I was on a Swissair fight from Zürich to Boston sitting next to a brilliant, well-educated Syrian businessman who was urging me to learn Arabic and visit his civilized, culturally rich country, which was an island of stability in the Middle East. When it was already on its way to falling apart in 2010, Obama reached out to Putin and specifically asked him if he was willing to work together to prevent Syria from becoming a total catastrophe, and Putin told him to fuck off, since Syria had long been in the Russian sphere of influence (and, not coincidentally, the only Mediterranean warm water port where his warships were always welcome). Obama told me this personally in 2012, and things didn't exactly improve since then. Putin never was famous for his humanitarian tendencies. Any American who doesn't understand that this is completely different from Central America is either too lazy to find out what's what, or is a Republican and therefore fully indifferent.

There is plenty of squalor in Europe, though in the west, most of it is hidden, and it is definitely not considered "acceptable" as it is in the U.S. There are parts of the Balkans that have traditionally been basket cases, and remain so.

As for the refugees here in Western Europe, Merkel adopted the rare stance of pragmatism, and was left to twist in the wind by her EU partners. These people were coming no matter what. The two choices were to build concentration camps for those didn't die on the way, or try to accommodate the coming hoard. None of the European countries were staffed with the necessary thousands of Arabic-speaking social workers needed to explain the rules of society here, and none of the countries' justice systems were prepared to treat offenders equally under their own justice systems, preferring "tolerance and leniency" toward violent offenders. With that, they therefore played into the hands of the European radical right, who danced with joy with every rape or violent assault committed by a refugee, giving them both a free cause célèbre and a boost at the polls that was neither intended nor justified. Sweden was an extreme example, and the number of skinheads there (proportionally) is nothing short of alarming.

The most civilized city on the west.

he should do like we have the leisure of doing here. I'm sure he did what he thought was right in the heat of the moment.
Perhaps it would have been better to stop the bus and refuse to move until room was made for the disabled man.

outer bourough of NYC. We were frequently thrown off buses and trains, sometimes in horrendous weather, usually with no explanation. We endured. Never made the news. Maybe that's why we were called the "silent generation". It was the decade following WWII. We were just grateful to be at peace.

their fellow passengers refuse to make space and help a disabled passenger.

They have been given notice that "Terminus" might be just one driver away from making space.