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realmirage

(2,117 posts)
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:02 PM Nov 2018

You're going to need people like me in 2020

I like the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. I think what Sanders proved is that a lot of other people do too. Did you see his support in places like West Virginia? That guy can pull votes from an array of groups.

If you have young people in your family, ask them about Sanders and the progressive movement. You want to say now that young people don’t vote in the numbers older people do, right? Here’s something that you should give a good hard look -

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/20/more-young-people-voted-for-bernie-sanders-than-trump-and-clinton-combined-by-a-lot/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fa5cd9c89dde

Now ask yourself, how would you win without that percentage that DOES vote? What if it went down by half? What if they turn away from our Party and do something stupid like vote Green Party because we don’t make room for Sanders and the progressive movement in our big tent?

United we stand, remember?

Sanders still has an ENORMOUS support base. You have to admit reality, that Sanders has a very good chance at winning the nomination in 2020. But if he doesn’t, we are going to need his supporters.

And no, the DNC rules do NOT prevent Sanders from getting the nomination. That Newsweek article debunked itself with a screenshot of the rules that do NOT say you need to be a registered Democrat to get it.

It will be beyond sad if we go limping into the general election in 2020 because we can’t tell friend from foe. Yes, the past is painful, but I want to win. And if it means I have to put aside my feelings about the past so that there can be hope for tomorrow, then I am mature enough to do the hard adult stuff and support ALL the people in our big tent so that we can defeat this cancerous movement on the right that threatens everything, including democracy itself.

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You're going to need people like me in 2020 (Original Post) realmirage Nov 2018 OP
What the heck? manor321 Nov 2018 #1
The black caucus and the progressive caucus are plenty progressive MountCleaners Nov 2018 #10
Totally agree, we need to all support each other realmirage Nov 2018 #12
Then why didn't you say that in your OP? Bernie supporters pnwmom Nov 2018 #607
There you go playing "identity politics" EffieBlack Nov 2018 #90
Thanks for sharing your lofty thoughts with us mere mortals. (nt) Paladin Nov 2018 #2
Need them? Is that a threat that they might NOT support whoever is up against Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #28
Yes, this is a threat-if we do not nominate sanders they will help elect trump again Gothmog Nov 2018 #93
OK, that happened, but... Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #271
I know almost as many never Hillary Separation Nov 2018 #299
I get what you're trying to say mountain grammy Nov 2018 #338
Go back and look at Hillary / Obama in 2008 Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #372
For many of those "concerned" about H Clinton's spooky3 Nov 2018 #527
It didn't necessarily do John Kerry a world of good either Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #533
But did they become "never Kerry" voters in the general? spooky3 Nov 2018 #535
I think that's why some voted for Nader/Camejo, and others stayed home. Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #538
They did, but I don't think the evidence is convincing spooky3 Nov 2018 #543
No doubt sexism was a factor Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #554
the concept that we should bow down to a silly threat is unacceptable Gothmog Nov 2018 #329
You shouldn't bow down, but you shouldn't flip them off either Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #341
I am hopeful that sanders does not run Gothmog Nov 2018 #349
I'm sorry you had those experiences Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #358
The premise of the OP is a threat to help re elect trump Gothmog Nov 2018 #360
I doubt he'd go Indie for POTUS Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #368
The premise of the OP is offensive and is not designed for unity Gothmog Nov 2018 #373
Hmmmmmm.... Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #390
So-called progressive/sanders voters clearly voted against Gilliam in the real world Gothmog Nov 2018 #409
i agree julia b. Nov 2018 #541
Yup. Some of them might have been people who were just messing with us pnwmom Nov 2018 #608
wish we could discuss what happened, not make same mistake, etc Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #282
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #505
"I will vote for whoever has the best chance of defeating Trump in the 2020".... George II Nov 2018 #526
Excellent question... I see you won't be receiving a response. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #552
OOOOH, that's cold........... George II Nov 2018 #553
It's the old "we'll take our ball and go home" or "we'll boo at the convention and Squinch Nov 2018 #139
I was at the convention and I saw the booing and worst behavior Gothmog Nov 2018 #180
And virtually everyone in this thread sees through the divisive nonsense. So that's good. Squinch Nov 2018 #191
Are you one of the JPR posters who approved of the booing of Congressman John Lewis Gothmog Nov 2018 #194
Did you mean to post this to me? I am agreeing with you. Squinch Nov 2018 #212
Yeah, I think Goth was addressing the OP Hekate Nov 2018 #217
Except I just re-read my two comments to Gothmog in this thread, and realized Squinch Nov 2018 #221
thanks Gothmog Nov 2018 #330
Sorry they were so misunderstandable! Squinch Nov 2018 #342
I am still tired from the election Gothmog Nov 2018 #343
You two are starting to sound like Dan Crenshaw and Pete Davidson (I'M JOKING!!!!) Sometimes.... George II Nov 2018 #544
Post removed Post removed Nov 2018 #506
Were you at the convention? Gothmog Nov 2018 #516
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #520
sanders will not be the nominee for so long as African American voters are key to the base Gothmog Nov 2018 #523
"WTF is the matter with you people?" ehrnst Nov 2018 #547
+1000. nt ecstatic Nov 2018 #445
And not much we can do with those who threaten Cary Nov 2018 #454
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #501
It's a threat. They don't give a shit about Hispanic, Black and Jewish folks in this country octoberlib Nov 2018 #542
This. Exactly. xmas74 Nov 2018 #556
You are correct, of course. One wonders what it will take , I know Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #576
This lillypaddle Nov 2018 #579
:) Our grand Democratic alliance IS our progressive "wing"! Hortensis Nov 2018 #183
+1. Indeed. Gets long in the tooth at times doesnt it? Crutchez_CuiBono Nov 2018 #327
I disagree Glamrock Nov 2018 #3
This reply wins the Internet for today realmirage Nov 2018 #5
Grassy ass. Glamrock Nov 2018 #7
+1 aikoaiko Nov 2018 #19
+2 vsrazdem Nov 2018 #27
it is only on DU that the bernie hate continues questionseverything Nov 2018 #205
Actually BS gets called out All Over Cha Nov 2018 #213
There are some great threads on sanders on Twitter Gothmog Nov 2018 #410
Why do you think Bernie is the only one saying healthcare is a human right? dawg day Nov 2018 #235
Heres our standard bearer Glamrock Nov 2018 #260
+1000000! (nt) ehrnst Nov 2018 #548
and over at JPR Hillary hate runs supreme, along with the Democratic party hate still_one Nov 2018 #364
I will NEVER understand that as long as I live. calimary Nov 2018 #477
Hillary hate is equally stupid realmirage Nov 2018 #480
Yet Vermont doesn't have single payer, but Obama actually accomplished R B Garr Nov 2018 #455
insurance for everyone is not the same as healthcare for everyone questionseverything Nov 2018 #597
I get hides even when I haven't broken any rule realmirage Nov 2018 #478
Then you should appeal still_one Nov 2018 #498
I do, but sometimes even that gets ignored. realmirage Nov 2018 #504
great comment Celerity Nov 2018 #215
Much appreciated. I really just want to win. realmirage Nov 2018 #482
Sanders isn't IN the party-- by his own choice. dawg day Nov 2018 #234
Wrong Glamrock Nov 2018 #239
So what's your problem then? dawg day Nov 2018 #273
What grevience? Glamrock Nov 2018 #280
Thank you. Voltaire2 Nov 2018 #322
My pleasure Glamrock Nov 2018 #328
Which particular leadership position is that? dhol82 Nov 2018 #385
Chairman of Committee Outreach Glamrock Nov 2018 #392
So, how long will he be leader? dhol82 Nov 2018 #393
Not sure how long Glamrock Nov 2018 #394
I'm going to to to say somewhere around January he will be gone dhol82 Nov 2018 #396
Okay. Glamrock Nov 2018 #397
So true! But let me point out, Bernie is not a Democrat... in case anyone forgot! InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #489
Hahahaha! Glamrock Nov 2018 #490
Let's talk once he joins the party again. Get back to us then. brush Nov 2018 #4
He has zero chance at winning the nomination. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #6
It was not tailor made Kentonio Nov 2018 #440
Establishment, decades in the Senate. betsuni Nov 2018 #442
It was a 1-on-1 contest and he was *the* alternative to a polarizing candidate. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #446
Please don't try and re-write history. Kentonio Nov 2018 #561
Those dates you list are nearly a year before the 1st primary. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #567
Were you actually following the primaries? Kentonio Nov 2018 #592
Someone who's been in office since 1990 would hardly be "considered a complete outsider." betsuni Nov 2018 #593
And the 1st primary was nearly a year later, at which point it was a 1-on-1 race. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #594
By the time of the first primary, Bernie still had low name recognition in many parts of the country Kentonio Nov 2018 #595
I haven't denied that, but you're overemphasizing where things stood a year before Iowa. Garrett78 Nov 2018 #596
You seem to have forgotten the earlier part of the primary race Kentonio Nov 2018 #606
I always vote for a Democrat in any Democratic primary. LuvLoogie Nov 2018 #8
But ketchup is good realmirage Nov 2018 #9
Yeah, but it ain't spaghetti sauce either. LuvLoogie Nov 2018 #65
I love Whataburger Gothmog Nov 2018 #104
Dammit now I want whataburger realmirage Nov 2018 #109
I have a ton of Whataburger spicy ketschup packets that I ended using last night Gothmog Nov 2018 #331
Well OK then...nt SidDithers Nov 2018 #11
So we should be reasonable and do it your way? Wounded Bear Nov 2018 #13
Asking for a friend. OAITW r.2.0 Nov 2018 #14
Big tents win elections. That's the core realmirage Nov 2018 #15
You don't really want a big tent though qazplm135 Nov 2018 #26
I think they'd like the others in the tent to stop treating them like the enemy Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #346
I am not interested in qazplm135 Nov 2018 #353
Yes it is! OAITW r.2.0 Nov 2018 #37
That kind of sounds like the point of the Democratic Party is to make Bernie "more effective." dawg day Nov 2018 #238
Absolutely agree. OAITW r.2.0 Nov 2018 #244
Your progessive seem to not want to vote for non-white candidates and may have helped elect DeSantis Gothmog Nov 2018 #334
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #518
So sanders was lying about his supporters not voting for African Americans? Gothmog Nov 2018 #519
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #521
Read this thread Gothmog Nov 2018 #524
Eric Swallwell Hekate Nov 2018 #362
Zombies! They are EVERYWHERE! Squinch Nov 2018 #144
gods yes they are Hekate Nov 2018 #471
As requested, I asked the young person in my house what he thinks of Bernie Sanders. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #16
Did you bother looking at the realmirage Nov 2018 #21
Where did my son get this idea? By using his critical thinking skills, methinks. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #70
You miss my point realmirage Nov 2018 #116
I did not miss your point, you are threatening Democrats... Small-Axe Nov 2018 #201
You can be righteously angry and Progressives who support Sanders can simply fail to show up Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #345
People who don't show up to stop Trump are not "progressives." Small-Axe Nov 2018 #347
I support: affordable healthcare; a living wage for all who work; affordable college; Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #355
I'm under the impression that this is a website for committed and loyal Democrats. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #356
Your impression is not quite correct Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #366
Threatening Democrats and engaging in blackmail isn't friendly. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #367
1) You aren't the least bit sorry. 2) With all due respect, I'm correct Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #370
I don't need lectures about building bridges from people who are actively threatening my party. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #371
Think less about party and more about issues Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #374
I do not require or desire your ongoing lectures. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #377
Welcome to DU Gothmog Nov 2018 #384
Thank you for the support and the welcome. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #387
Calm down no one is threatening anyone realmirage Nov 2018 #425
Not in the mood to be gaslighted. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #427
Again, just try to remain calm and chill with realmirage Nov 2018 #430
Stop your infantile games... Small-Axe Nov 2018 #434
The premise of the OP is offensive and is not designed for unity Gothmog Nov 2018 #451
You should take your own advice. Reality based input is not R B Garr Nov 2018 #460
Then you should quit flaming allies if you feel it's so important. R B Garr Nov 2018 #449
Peace be with you Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #391
"Eventually I'd disengage from politics altogether." Squinch Nov 2018 #369
Important point: "We need to think less about our vote as a statement about our individuality." betsuni Nov 2018 #421
It is called reality and facts Gothmog Nov 2018 #110
Did you read the article in my OP? realmirage Nov 2018 #117
Yes but the difference is that I understood it Gothmog Nov 2018 #138
Your headline gave me the best laugh so far today. Squinch Nov 2018 #146
The article did not support the claims of the OP Gothmog Nov 2018 #184
I know. It is funny because you are correct, and the poster who is insisting Squinch Nov 2018 #216
I seriously doubt that the OP read the article cited because such article does not support the OP Gothmog Nov 2018 #375
I think I read that 31% of them voted. That is an awesome increase over their average. Squinch Nov 2018 #378
The increase in the voting percentage of young and Latino voters make me smile Gothmog Nov 2018 #386
And Florida could be a surprise too, with Amendment Four. Squinch Nov 2018 #388
Felon Disenfranchisement is a very racist policy from Jim Crow days Gothmog Nov 2018 #473
+1000. Great points. nt ecstatic Nov 2018 #447
This article does not support the claims made in the OP Gothmog Nov 2018 #448
Mazie Hrono Hekate Nov 2018 #363
And I'd be curious to know realmirage Nov 2018 #121
You do know that russia helped sanders a great deal Gothmog Nov 2018 #129
How does this answer the question? realmirage Nov 2018 #132
sanders is not the only progressive Gothmog Nov 2018 #147
Your crystal ball says? realmirage Nov 2018 #150
I was a delegate to the national convention and I have a very different view of bernie Gothmog Nov 2018 #169
Dems should press Bernie on why he didn't act to stop disrespectful oasis Nov 2018 #222
sanders supporters think that such conduct was justified Gothmog Nov 2018 #336
Because you keep evading the obvious. Sanders holds the key himself. MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #208
Amy Klobuchar Hekate Nov 2018 #399
Your question assumes we are all in agreement that BS is a progressive. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #420
It bothers me a great deal that Russia and Putin pushed sanders and helped him Gothmog Nov 2018 #603
Are you suggesting Sanders is the only progressive voice? Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #219
Apparently. sheshe2 Nov 2018 #277
Yeah... Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #278
;) sheshe2 Nov 2018 #289
Yes, it's the ideology. betsuni Nov 2018 #287
Kamala Harris Hekate Nov 2018 #398
I asked my youngster as requested. dawg day Nov 2018 #237
My 18 year old likes Harris, xmas74 Nov 2018 #557
I like your daughter! betsuni Nov 2018 #560
Thank you! xmas74 Nov 2018 #588
The notion that Bernie got Trump elected is patently absurd markpkessinger Nov 2018 #589
The progressive wing? Show me a strong center Dem who hasn't also held a progressive claim Bfd Nov 2018 #17
Do You Have A Clue As To Why There Is Spate Of These Threads Me. Nov 2018 #25
Oh yes. You are precisley right ME. No progressive on the planet can defend His recent comments & Bfd Nov 2018 #41
No progressive wing? The who the hell are these people? PassingFair Nov 2018 #51
When you omit an entire history of policy by the Democratic leaders & stand there claiming to be the Bfd Nov 2018 #55
THIS! EffieBlack Nov 2018 #94
You are on fire. sheshe2 Nov 2018 #125
But... Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #229
Haaha. Bfd Nov 2018 #240
Exactly! Very well said. R B Garr Nov 2018 #456
+ infinity! sheshe2 Nov 2018 #120
For many, HRC lost her credibility with Progressives when she voted for the IWR Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #348
Didn't Hillary herself admit that her vote for the IWR was a huge blunder? InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #492
Yes Algernon Moncrieff Nov 2018 #531
. WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2018 #18
Big tent, remember? realmirage Nov 2018 #22
It's a huge tent, yet Bernie still can't seem to fit himself in it. MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #33
So your plan to win without his supporters is? realmirage Nov 2018 #45
My plan is to support Democrats and our progressive platform. MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #73
That's how we stop this nightmare. realmirage Nov 2018 #86
Why are you so sure that "his supporters" won't vote sensibly? dawg day Nov 2018 #269
why would we have to win without his supporters? qazplm135 Nov 2018 #276
BS still has two years to acquire the leadership skills necessary lapucelle Nov 2018 #283
Sheldon Whitehouse Hekate Nov 2018 #400
So your strategy to win without his supporters is? realmirage Nov 2018 #76
Is this another Bernie or Bust effort or something? MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #89
And tell me how it is wise realmirage Nov 2018 #101
No one is attacking them. MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #163
Your usage of the word 'attack' is consistently wrong. LanternWaste Nov 2018 #232
Melodrama is the perfect word for it. betsuni Nov 2018 #255
Ted Lieu Hekate Nov 2018 #402
You win this whole thread with your series of replies... SidDithers Nov 2018 #419
You are very welcome Hekate Nov 2018 #426
That's EXACTLY what this is! You nailed it! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #127
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #284
Have you seen the OP's other threads? Hekate Nov 2018 #214
Tammy Duckworth Hekate Nov 2018 #401
LOVE, LOVE LOVE xmas74 Nov 2018 #558
Tammy is a great American hero & great Dem, but the only one who can save us, the OP says... Hekate Nov 2018 #559
My 18 year old can't stand him. xmas74 Nov 2018 #587
Good for her! Hekate Nov 2018 #590
An ego that large has trouble fitting through the door. Sad. Hekate Nov 2018 #510
Big, but not without standards. WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2018 #49
Then Sanders supporters should come inside LanternWaste Nov 2018 #71
Thank you. Bfd Nov 2018 #24
Can I kiss you? EffieBlack Nov 2018 #97
Hee! Anytime! WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2018 #174
I love you! And... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #119
. WhiskeyGrinder Nov 2018 #175
+++ brer cat Nov 2018 #266
This...all of this Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #288
I'm curious, realmirage, and need to ask you at what point or what event Totally Tunsie Nov 2018 #20
OH SNAP!!! Bucky Nov 2018 #31
I'm so glad you posted that realmirage Nov 2018 #36
Do you assume that "Sanders supporters" won't vote for the party's nominee... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #52
I'm questioning realmirage Nov 2018 #58
There's NOTHING "wise" about allowing NurseJackie Nov 2018 #78
Big tents win elections realmirage Nov 2018 #87
LOL NurseJackie Nov 2018 #103
I'll let you try and get the trump voters realmirage Nov 2018 #218
Oh brother! Nobody is "attacking" our "progressive allies". NurseJackie Nov 2018 #231
If what you describe is what actually happens here, I'd agree realmirage Nov 2018 #256
Nobody is attacking Sanders. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #270
To say nobody is attacking Sanders is the funniest thing I've heard all day. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #496
Keep laughing! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #503
You know perfectly well melman Nov 2018 #513
You know perfectly well he's not. It's pushback and holding his feet to the fire... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #515
Bernie has become some people's favorite "punching bag." It's gotten ridiculous around here. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #549
"Our progressive allies" are not restricted to Sanders supporters dawg day Nov 2018 #265
And who are loyal to the party. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #274
Beto O'Rourke Hekate Nov 2018 #405
Tents don't vote. People do. sheshe2 Nov 2018 #286
Absolutely.. no amount of coddling will change their minds Thekaspervote Nov 2018 #98
Bravo NurseJackie! Small-Axe Nov 2018 #204
The Parkland Students won't stay home. sheshe2 Nov 2018 #158
Joaquin Castro Hekate Nov 2018 #404
You are awesome. violetpastille Nov 2018 #412
Thank you very much. Also, Tom Udall. Hekate Nov 2018 #472
THIS 100% bluestarone Nov 2018 #62
Bingo! NastyRiffraff Nov 2018 #257
If you're to be allowed the right to your opinions, then you must allow Totally Tunsie Nov 2018 #54
None of this is a good excuse to attack progressive Democrats realmirage Nov 2018 #220
I would strongly suggest taking a deep breath and stepping back for a moment Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #243
If you think no one here attacks progressives and Sanders regularly you must not be here very often realmirage Nov 2018 #253
If such threads exist... Docreed2003 Nov 2018 #262
"If such threads exist..." Lordy, lordy shanny Nov 2018 #321
He's already demonstrated a marked inability Codeine Nov 2018 #69
Richard Blumenthal Hekate Nov 2018 #403
Whoops! EffieBlack Nov 2018 #99
Can We Say... LovingA2andMI Nov 2018 #462
Easy to find..it's all in his/her open-to-the-public journal. Totally Tunsie Nov 2018 #463
"United we stand, remember?" --- There's nothing unifying about... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #23
It sounds like a threat to me. Eliot Rosewater Nov 2018 #32
Big tent in 2020. That's the core of realmirage Nov 2018 #38
There's nothing unifying about his slams and smears against the Democratic party. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #47
Big tent realmirage Nov 2018 #124
Nope. Democrats are smarter than that. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #142
I still haven't heard what your strategy is realmirage Nov 2018 #145
You wrongly assume that Bernie supporters are the ONLY path to victory. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #160
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #529
Brian Schatz Hekate Nov 2018 #406
Clinton did win Gothmog Nov 2018 #122
How does Sanders win without democrats? Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #131
If sanders was the nominee, the party would lose the support of key demographic groups Gothmog Nov 2018 #188
Nope. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #209
This is terribly divisive and defeatist. realmirage Nov 2018 #224
You need to take the word "real" brer cat Nov 2018 #315
+1 betsuni Nov 2018 #317
These progressive types appear to have helped DeSantis win in Florida Gothmog Nov 2018 #333
Threats of boycotts by this group are also divisive Gothmog Nov 2018 #332
Aunty Maxine Hekate Nov 2018 #407
He can't win without those groups. He can't win the nomination, that's for damn sure. And... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #245
+1000 mercuryblues Nov 2018 #40
We needed you in 2016. nt TeamPooka Nov 2018 #29
See Post #20 for realmirage's comments on Bernie in 2016. Totally Tunsie Nov 2018 #35
Yes, and see my reply realmirage Nov 2018 #42
Per your former position on Bernie, TeamPooka would not have wanted or needed your opinion in 2016. Totally Tunsie Nov 2018 #236
I'm living in the here and now. We need to win in 2020 realmirage Nov 2018 #248
Cory Booker Hekate Nov 2018 #408
I'd vote for him too realmirage Nov 2018 #568
Anyone too dumb to vote for the Democratic nominee Codeine Nov 2018 #30
You are going to need me. See how that works?? boston bean Nov 2018 #34
Exactly. We need each other to win. realmirage Nov 2018 #43
I don't hold my vote over people heads. If people who call themselves democrats boston bean Nov 2018 #53
Does that justify attacking them regularly? realmirage Nov 2018 #72
Umm yeah. I don't take kindly to the attack of extortion. boston bean Nov 2018 #77
Asking people to be inclusive realmirage Nov 2018 #83
Oh yes it is. boston bean Nov 2018 #102
Attacking your own allies is wise how? realmirage Nov 2018 #107
That is what I would like to know. boston bean Nov 2018 #164
So why are you attacking your erstwhile allies? ..... Tammy Baldwin Hekate Nov 2018 #417
It's not the mainstream Dems that keep bringing up bernie!! It's those that support him and want Thekaspervote Nov 2018 #115
We're not holding our votes hostage Codeine Nov 2018 #57
We are not threatening to not vote treestar Nov 2018 #192
We at DU, spend a lot of time on this kind of . . . stuff empedocles Nov 2018 #39
But, happily, in this thread it's just one guy having a tantrum and EVERYONE else Squinch Nov 2018 #173
Thank you, saved me time empedocles Nov 2018 #206
So you are making your support conditional to leverage your grantcart Nov 2018 #44
All I'm saying is don't realmirage Nov 2018 #48
Defending oneself from an attack is not attacking. It is defending. boston bean Nov 2018 #60
Can you honestly say realmirage Nov 2018 #67
I see lots of posts about him criticizing the party. boston bean Nov 2018 #74
I want the right realmirage Nov 2018 #80
Because they are the extorters!!! boston bean Nov 2018 #84
Nobody is doing that. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #165
The progressive wing of the party has a problem with perception and... LincolnRossiter Nov 2018 #46
Bernie or bust was the stupidest realmirage Nov 2018 #50
I'll take your word for it, but there certainly millions of progressives... LincolnRossiter Nov 2018 #59
And do we want to be just like them? realmirage Nov 2018 #63
Who the hell said they wanted to "be like them?" LincolnRossiter Nov 2018 #66
Until he commits to proudly wear the Democratic Paty label, then he isn't a valid consideration Bfd Nov 2018 #64
I got your message realimage... it's a good one. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #493
Oh, is it time for the "be nice to us or we won't vote for Democrats" threats again? mcar Nov 2018 #56
"Ask not what the Democratic Party can do for you," stopbush Nov 2018 #61
Boom! True! This! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #81
We need candidates that let people belive government can and should do good things for them. brewens Nov 2018 #68
He's not getting the nomination. There is no way. ismnotwasm Nov 2018 #75
Post removed Post removed Nov 2018 #79
You are absolutely wrong on the DNC RULES Bfd Nov 2018 #82
And how easy is it to join the Party? realmirage Nov 2018 #91
Yup. That thinking is straight out of the DeVine/Manafort playbook. Bfd Nov 2018 #108
I just debunked that realmirage Nov 2018 #113
No you didn't. He's got some rules to comply with that he's not willing to do. Bfd Nov 2018 #140
LOL. No you have not Gothmog Nov 2018 #602
Yes elleng Nov 2018 #85
I was a delegate to the national convention and I have a very different view of bernie Gothmog Nov 2018 #88
You know who votes Demwolv Nov 2018 #92
Yep Gothmog Nov 2018 #95
Exactly. Demwolv Nov 2018 #105
I like both Senator Harris and Senator Booker Gothmog Nov 2018 #114
Agreed!! Demwolv Nov 2018 #118
One was also just elected who holds all the cards for ending a political travesty BumRushDaShow Nov 2018 #136
African American women voters are very important to the party Gothmog Nov 2018 #182
And how does this answer the problem realmirage Nov 2018 #199
They have... Demwolv Nov 2018 #203
Anyone who is politically active and chooses to not vote in 2020 dansolo Nov 2018 #268
I have a question. How many Sanders/OR backed candidates won their primaries, or the GE? Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #294
The reality is that we live in a 2 party system where it's either the Democrat or the Republican. elocs Nov 2018 #96
I can't tell you how much more weight this would carry with one change: Pope George Ringo II Nov 2018 #100
Whoopsie! (Good catch!) NurseJackie Nov 2018 #106
It's aimed at those who are attacking progressives realmirage Nov 2018 #126
LOL! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #148
Your angry, mocking tone does not help your argument realmirage Nov 2018 #154
LOL! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #162
I have seen no attack on progressives on DU...and I resent the fact that Sander's supporters Demsrule86 Nov 2018 #177
Try harder at aiming if you want to persuade somebody. Anybody. Pope George Ringo II Nov 2018 #202
Yes we do. Trumpocalypse Nov 2018 #111
Is this a threat. If a certain group doesn't get their way, let Trump have it and keep all us in Wintryjade Nov 2018 #112
This. Demwolv Nov 2018 #123
That is how I see it. As poorly as AOC has behaved to establishment Democrats, fighting against Wintryjade Nov 2018 #134
Precisely. Demwolv Nov 2018 #170
"Don't get me wrong, Hillary has her flaws," Why do we have to do this, before saying something good Wintryjade Nov 2018 #187
I am a woman. Demwolv Nov 2018 #193
I do not even know how to reply, but, O.K. I hear ya. Wintryjade Nov 2018 #195
Not very "woman-friendly"? namahage Nov 2018 #382
Did you read the article in the OP? realmirage Nov 2018 #130
I am not concerned about Sanders. He does not have the support or vote and we are two years out. Wintryjade Nov 2018 #149
Well said Wintryjade! Greywing Nov 2018 #502
Would be more dangerous Demwolv Nov 2018 #168
I did and think it is nonsense. Dems win because of our diverse coalition and Sander's has made Demsrule86 Nov 2018 #181
Read the link in the OP. realmirage Nov 2018 #143
They are not gonna vote if they do not get their way. You accuse me of attacking? Lol Wintryjade Nov 2018 #151
Not about getting their way, it's about not attacking them realmirage Nov 2018 #155
They are not voting if they do not get their way. I am going to call that out. Seriously? Wintryjade Nov 2018 #159
I think you need to re-read that link you are referring everyone to. It doesn't say Squinch Nov 2018 #157
It won't be a coronation to the nomination. sorry. Tavarious Jackson Nov 2018 #128
So attacking our allies regularly is the strategy? realmirage Nov 2018 #135
It all depends on your point of view. I see YOU as the one attacking our allies. And Squinch Nov 2018 #156
Let history be our guide. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #550
Historically, divided parties lose realmirage Nov 2018 #572
People who only post divisive posts? Probably not. Squinch Nov 2018 #133
In 2016 every young person I know said they were voting for Bernie. blueinredohio Nov 2018 #137
Times change. And had he ran last time, I don't think he wins...the GOP will demonize a Demsrule86 Nov 2018 #171
The media won't give him the kid-glove treatment that he's accustomed to. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #186
And he ran as a Democrat and then changed back to independent after the most recent Vermont Demsrule86 Nov 2018 #207
Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2018 #522
I agree and disagree with some of the things you've said Bettie Nov 2018 #141
Thank you for your wise and fair response. realmirage Nov 2018 #196
I am very happy to see the trouncing your bullshit post got in this thread, realmirage. Squinch Nov 2018 #152
And only 21 recs... compared to the "into-the-sunset" post with 192 recs... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #233
I think for even some of the biggest fans, the bloom is off the rose. Thank the gods. Squinch Nov 2018 #291
Sad to see people who can't recover from a loss realmirage Nov 2018 #352
Loss? What are you talking about? NurseJackie Nov 2018 #357
Why, namahage Nov 2018 #528
In the contrary, I must have hit a nerve realmirage Nov 2018 #351
Clearly you did hit a nerve. It was the nerve in which people are sick to death of Squinch Nov 2018 #365
Nicely put. (nt) Paladin Nov 2018 #481
The only progressives who have been driven out of here murielm99 Nov 2018 #379
"Into the sunset" has FOUR TIMES as many recs as this OP does... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #470
I like Sanders, but too old. Same with Biden. Let's get someone younger. I really like Steve LBM20 Nov 2018 #153
A young progressive would be awesome. realmirage Nov 2018 #197
Kamala Harris, Joaquin Castro, Cory Booker, Beto O'Rourke, Eric Swallwell, Adam Schiff Hekate Nov 2018 #411
I would support Joe if he ran Gothmog Nov 2018 #475
We needed people like you in 2016 too. Captain Stern Nov 2018 #161
Boom! NurseJackie Nov 2018 #293
How many threats (take ball and go home" are going to have to endure before 20 I wonder...trash Demsrule86 Nov 2018 #166
We know that disgruntled Sanders supporters MontanaMama Nov 2018 #167
Yep Gothmog Nov 2018 #172
Interesting numbers I had not seen it. We knew of course Especially with open/caucuses. Wintryjade Nov 2018 #198
Or maybe those Sanders voters voted for Trump because they wanted Trump violetpastille Nov 2018 #190
I didn't know that. MontanaMama Nov 2018 #249
I'd love to hear your strategy for how we win without realmirage Nov 2018 #247
Reality is that Bernie is not a Democrat. MontanaMama Nov 2018 #258
All I'm saying is I think it would be wise for us to unite now rather than realmirage Nov 2018 #261
Every single thread MontanaMama Nov 2018 #267
Strawman. Valid criticism about his dumb statements on race isn't "attacking progressives" emulatorloo Nov 2018 #176
We need all the support we can get Rizen Nov 2018 #178
And you're definitely going to need the Democratic Party. calimary Nov 2018 #179
I am so sick of this "support Bernie or I'll take my toys and go home" crap. redstatebluegirl Nov 2018 #185
I absolutely DESPISE these Sanders fights GitRDun Nov 2018 #189
EXACTLY. That's my whole point. We need to unite realmirage Nov 2018 #200
You want us to unite by accepting a candidate who is not acceptable to the base Gothmog Nov 2018 #337
I look every day for your OPs -- thanks for posting! obamanut2012 Nov 2018 #210
Why do I feel like DU is getting a wedgie with all these posts? Asking for a friend, doncha know.nt Hekate Nov 2018 #211
That time of the season Andy823 Nov 2018 #226
Is that some sort of threat? Really? MineralMan Nov 2018 #223
Asking people to stop attacking progressive realmirage Nov 2018 #225
Who is doing that? Most of us have a preference MineralMan Nov 2018 #227
The OP keeps posting threads like this obamanut2012 Nov 2018 #272
Sanders isn't a Democrat... Adrahil Nov 2018 #230
Asking people to stop attacking Democrats and the Democratic Party is common sense period. MrsCoffee Nov 2018 #246
Inviting "progressives" into our Big Tent, rather taking the tent to them... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #254
BEYOND common sense... which is why I fear the non-stop bashing of Bernie will go on. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #495
Before I trash this thread, saidsimplesimon Nov 2018 #228
Well yourebin luck, Glamrock Nov 2018 #242
Not again :sigh: NastyRiffraff Nov 2018 #241
thanks for the bump realmirage Nov 2018 #251
LOL! NastyRiffraff Nov 2018 #259
That reminds me, I need to buy pickles. betsuni Nov 2018 #250
. Squinch Nov 2018 #290
Woe is me MyNameGoesHere Nov 2018 #252
Left wing populism can be as toxic as right wing populism. They both need a boogeyman. DemocratSinceBirth Nov 2018 #263
Precisely correct. Populism is toxic. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #281
All this UNITED talk Bernie people say only applies to others listening to them nini Nov 2018 #264
Co-sign, brother. LincolnRossiter Nov 2018 #275
... lapucelle Nov 2018 #279
Why do people on this board think we decide wasupaloopa Nov 2018 #285
I appreciate your efforts here, but this audience is incapable of listening. stranger81 Nov 2018 #292
+1 melman Nov 2018 #295
If you bothered to read post #20, you'd find that the o.p. was one of those "fuck you(s)" in 2016. Tarheel_Dem Nov 2018 #296
Dems really don't need outsiders who think they get to set the rules nini Nov 2018 #298
Yeah, who needs voters right? realmirage Nov 2018 #301
The ones I'm talking about aren't reachable nini Nov 2018 #324
Maybe I have too much faith in people realmirage Nov 2018 #300
Oh, yeah, right. That's why so much of Bernie's platform became the official Democratic platform. pnwmom Nov 2018 #305
'Because the party is incapable of listening.' melman Nov 2018 #308
Someone said this "audience" is incapable of listening. I presume s/he was referring to DU, pnwmom Nov 2018 #309
Others? melman Nov 2018 #311
Other progressives who are capable of listening. n/t pnwmom Nov 2018 #312
This is a board for Democrats melman Nov 2018 #313
I am being inclusive. Some people who belong to no particular party share progressive goals pnwmom Nov 2018 #314
I see melman Nov 2018 #340
What is the point of this inquisition? n/t pnwmom Nov 2018 #344
The base of the party in my state is African Americans. GulfCoast66 Nov 2018 #297
Well with trump you'll certainly get nothing realmirage Nov 2018 #302
Since almost all 'progressives', however you define that word, GulfCoast66 Nov 2018 #323
I guess you didn't read the op at all? realmirage Nov 2018 #571
and progressives cannot win without Dems n/t Greywing Nov 2018 #507
Right, and we're having this conversation because some folks have decided an indefensible comment.. JHan Nov 2018 #316
And YOU are going to need Hillary supporters. They're no more thrilled with Bernie pnwmom Nov 2018 #303
Agreed. You made the same point I did. realmirage Nov 2018 #306
Maybe he should become a Democrat? JNelson6563 Nov 2018 #304
Posts like this, you mean posts explaining we need realmirage Nov 2018 #307
You do know that the DNC rules have been changed Gothmog Nov 2018 #339
Sanders could go a long way to uniting us.... Adrahil Nov 2018 #350
The Progressives are a vital part of the Democratic Party bobGandolf Nov 2018 #310
Agreed! I'm glad some people understand realmirage Nov 2018 #354
Nice party ya got there. murielm99 Nov 2018 #318
Yes, we are being threathened Gothmog Nov 2018 #335
I define Radical Progressives as, ... bobGandolf Nov 2018 #604
I can't really think about it yet JustAnotherGen Nov 2018 #319
PS I haven't been around JustAnotherGen Nov 2018 #320
I love and admire Sanders! ananda Nov 2018 #325
No, you're going to need people like me... AkFemDem Nov 2018 #326
Whether one likes it or not because of what happened, Bernie and Hillary are divisionary to some still_one Nov 2018 #359
Adam Schiff Hekate Nov 2018 #361
Right. liberal N proud Nov 2018 #376
Bernie threads are likes buses. If you miss one there will be another one along in ten minutes. dameatball Nov 2018 #380
So true. dhol82 Nov 2018 #395
This is turning into the Oscar or Kudzu thread underpants Nov 2018 #381
But this thread is nonsense without the humor. betsuni Nov 2018 #418
If only. A-Schwarzenegger Nov 2018 #436
underpants Nov 2018 #439
Except sadly contentious; we need humor. Until then I'm happy to continue listing actual Democrats Hekate Nov 2018 #474
Are you saying we need to vote for Sanders in the primary, MoonRiver Nov 2018 #383
Glad you've figured out that you're better off trying to expand the tent... namahage Nov 2018 #389
I think he's just the Energizer Bunny of wedge issues. I can name a dozen great Dems ... Hekate Nov 2018 #415
Sanders and progressives in general realmirage Nov 2018 #424
Ed Markey Hekate Nov 2018 #432
He is my Senator! sheshe2 Nov 2018 #499
So holding feet to the fire and earning votes is bad now? betsuni Nov 2018 #437
Well, you'd THINK that would be the case, wouldn't you? NurseJackie Nov 2018 #458
So if I attacked Hillary and her supporters realmirage Nov 2018 #574
WhataboutHillary WhataboutHillary WhataboutHillary betsuni Nov 2018 #586
No they don't... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #457
That was right on. People who plan to betray realmirage Nov 2018 #423
Sanders lost the Primaries, right? brooklynite Nov 2018 #413
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Afromania Nov 2018 #414
What you said Hekate Nov 2018 #416
+1 betsuni Nov 2018 #422
You were on the mark until realmirage Nov 2018 #428
Kamala Harris. Cory Booker. Joaquin Castro. Hekate Nov 2018 #435
What's being attacked, if anything, is the myopic focus some Bernie backers have for him. Afromania Nov 2018 #438
Great post Gothmog Nov 2018 #444
From the FWIW Dept (For What Its Worth) Stonepounder Nov 2018 #429
If only everyone could put aside their realmirage Nov 2018 #433
That's not how it works. The first thing that needs to happen... NurseJackie Nov 2018 #461
I don't respond to angry, bitter posts. realmirage Nov 2018 #464
Clearly I've touched a VERY sensitive nerve. NurseJackie Nov 2018 #465
This is from the OP who is threatening to help re-elect trump? Gothmog Nov 2018 #487
These types of threats are very Sarandonesque, aren't they? NurseJackie Nov 2018 #512
I agree Gothmog Nov 2018 #517
Al Franken Hekate Nov 2018 #546
No way realmirage Nov 2018 #569
This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Nov 2018 #431
Been there, done that and he lost. Sunsky Nov 2018 #441
No one but you mentioned the primaries. realmirage Nov 2018 #508
Re-read your post Sunsky Nov 2018 #530
I'm not sure why it's difficult to understand realmirage Nov 2018 #575
My allies vote for Democrats Sunsky Nov 2018 #578
Post removed Post removed Nov 2018 #443
LOL, the election results clearly show that it is actually *you* R B Garr Nov 2018 #450
It's "we" realmirage Nov 2018 #476
Your OP title speaks for itself. You are dividing R B Garr Nov 2018 #500
... betsuni Nov 2018 #452
There's never a bad time for a little Monty Python! :-D NurseJackie Nov 2018 #453
Eye--Roll.... LovingA2andMI Nov 2018 #459
Thanks for the bump realmirage Nov 2018 #467
It was not a bump... LovingA2andMI Nov 2018 #483
Thanks again realmirage Nov 2018 #485
Elijah Cummings Hekate Nov 2018 #509
... LexVegas Nov 2018 #466
Thanks for the bump realmirage Nov 2018 #468
... LexVegas Nov 2018 #469
Kirsten Gillibrand Hekate Nov 2018 #545
+1 Power 2 the People Nov 2018 #479
We will win this thing together. That's the only way. realmirage Nov 2018 #484
+1000 Power 2 the People Nov 2018 #486
So true!! Should be so simple to see... divided we fall. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2018 #494
Please explain how unity is achieved when someone claims the Democratic party is "corrupt". NurseJackie Nov 2018 #511
Elizabeth Warren Hekate Nov 2018 #539
She's good too. realmirage Nov 2018 #565
The OP is wrong about the new DNC rule Gothmog Nov 2018 #488
You keep saying that but you haven't provided realmirage Nov 2018 #491
Do you tire of being wrong? Gothmog Nov 2018 #497
Tim Kaine Hekate Nov 2018 #537
Translation: You do what I want or I'll take my ball and go home! FSogol Nov 2018 #514
That is what I see from the BoBs liberal N proud Nov 2018 #534
Sounds like you're making a threat, kid... Blue_Tires Nov 2018 #525
This liberal N proud Nov 2018 #532
Straight up Small-Axe Nov 2018 #551
Hilarious. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #563
Not youth, but those who are so radicalized that they will only vote for their candidate... Small-Axe Nov 2018 #566
Repeating the same thing twice doesn't make it any more sensible. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2018 #570
I agree, repeating nonsense doesn't make nonsense more sensible. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #573
Agree. Hortensis Nov 2018 #600
We're gonna need people like you, you're gonna need people like us. CASE CLOSED. nt UniteFightBack Nov 2018 #536
BASTA! I think young people spoke loud and clear in the mid-terms ... Greywing Nov 2018 #540
Right on realmirage Nov 2018 #562
Really? xmas74 Nov 2018 #555
What is so perfect about this thread realmirage Nov 2018 #564
What is a "Democratic Ally"? violetpastille Nov 2018 #577
I think it's self explanatory realmirage Nov 2018 #581
I Believe that's the definition of a Democrat. violetpastille Nov 2018 #583
That would also qualify. realmirage Nov 2018 #599
Which means those who don't for Democrats are not allies. Small-Axe Nov 2018 #584
I think I get it.. violetpastille Nov 2018 #585
Kind of sounds like a threat. I don't do threats. Justice Nov 2018 #580
I Love Bernie! lovemydogs Nov 2018 #582
: ) realmirage Nov 2018 #591
I guess people need a reminder since realmirage Nov 2018 #598
There are only two groups being discussed, Real. Hortensis Nov 2018 #601
sanders will not be the nominee of the party despite your threats Gothmog Nov 2018 #605
How transparent is Bernie Sanders on his tax returns? Gothmog Jan 2019 #609
 

manor321

(3,344 posts)
1. What the heck?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:06 PM
Nov 2018
...because we don’t make room for Sanders and the progressive movement in our big tent


LOL. What the heck does that even mean?

The Democratic party has moved to the left, because of any number of influences, not the least of which is Trump and the GOP attacking health care.

MountCleaners

(1,148 posts)
10. The black caucus and the progressive caucus are plenty progressive
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:16 PM
Nov 2018

I'm always arguing with Bernie's people that they need to pay more attention to the black caucus and the progressive caucus. Many of them don't pay attention to these people. They have been promoting progressive causes for years. Like on Twitter, they should follow these people and support and promote their views whenever they can. So many of them are also talking about the issues Bernie talks about. We have a number of these people here in the Chicago area and they're terrific. I'm also a big fan of Barbara Lee. How can someone call themselves a "progressive" and not follow Barbara Lee?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
12. Totally agree, we need to all support each other
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:18 PM
Nov 2018

And help each other and recognize we are all on the same team

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
607. Then why didn't you say that in your OP? Bernie supporters
Mon Nov 19, 2018, 06:08 AM
Nov 2018

will also need Hillary supporters if the party is to accomplish anything.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
28. Need them? Is that a threat that they might NOT support whoever is up against
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:33 PM
Nov 2018

the Nazi?

That is how I read it, I dont want to talk to or know people like that.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
93. Yes, this is a threat-if we do not nominate sanders they will help elect trump again
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:19 PM
Nov 2018

sanders supporters helped to elect trump in 2016 and now we are being threatened again http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

Bernie Sanders supporters switched their allegiance to Donald Trump in large enough numbers last November to sway the election for the real estate billionaire, according to an analysis of voter data released Tuesday by the blog Political Wire. Since Trump’s shock victory over Hillary Clinton, much discussion has focused on the degree to which passionate Sanders supporters’ refusal to embrace Clinton led to the Republican winding up in the White House.

Here is some more https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

About 12 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters from the Democratic primary crossed party lines and voted for Donald Trump in the general election, a new analysis says.

In several key states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan — the number of Sanders to Trump defectors were greater than Trump’s margin of victory, according to new numbers released Wednesday by UMass professor Brian Schaffner.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
271. OK, that happened, but...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:39 PM
Nov 2018

We can't keep fighting 2016.

If Sanders supporters crossed to Trump or Jill Stein, it's still incumbent on the Democratic nominee to make their case to those voters. Democrats crossed for Reagan and Nixon - this is nothing new.

Also, and maybe this is just me, you don't suppose some of those crossovers were persons that switched parties because they were anti-Hillary; voted for Sanders; and had no intention of ever voting for the Democratic nominee?

Separation

(1,975 posts)
299. I know almost as many never Hillary
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:00 AM
Nov 2018

As I know never Trumpers.

Take that info and do with it as you please. One can say, "Well, I bet you sure do wish you could go back and vote instead of abstaining or voting a spoiler vote." and one can hold the moral high ground that they may have, and they get to stand there smelling the fragrant bouquet of their farts. It still got Trump elected either way and it will again in 2020.

When I see Democrats and the type of infighting they do, it sometimes reminds me of cutting one's nose off to spite their face. I guess, however, that can be said for just about anyone though.

I made a post a while back with the title of Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, and Jill Stein walks into a bar, and people lost their shit, or worse tried playing coy and not seeing any problem at all and thanking me for my concern.

Instead, there needs to be a common message that spans across the lines of Democrats, Independents, Green, whatever. It sure as shit shouldn't be, "Vote for our guy/girl because he/she isn't Trump." That's a sure fire way to lose voters to apathy again. It does need to try and unite those 3 parties, I mean hell. They all share a very common core of beliefs, find the one thing that unites them all (except for Never Trump) and it should be an easy win. Healthcare, Immigration, fair trade, are all common bonds. Then you just need a good looking guy or gal (a famous Instagrammer should do the trick), or at least 3 or 4 damn good speech writers and handlers and that's a winning combination! (Obviously, the Instagrammer part was said in jest, but ya get what I'm trying to say) or hope.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
372. Go back and look at Hillary / Obama in 2008
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:30 PM
Nov 2018

You are absolutely correct about the "Never Hillary" voters, and I supported Hillary (and I'm really sad she lost).

For many on the left, her IWR vote was an unforgivable deal breaker. Other Progressives dislike Bill Clinton for "ending welfare as we know it" and see Hillary as being cut from the same cloth. Still others are angered that she didn't stand up for herself and divorce Bill for his frequent infidelity.

1) Votes have to be earned. Any candidate needs to be seen as being able to deliver benefits that are important to the voter.
2) No one wins by looking in the rear view mirror and constantly dragging 2016 into 2020.
3) We win by finding the core issues we can unite around and that separate us from Trump and the Billionaire Oligarchs.

spooky3

(34,456 posts)
527. For many of those "concerned" about H Clinton's
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 08:11 PM
Nov 2018

IWR vote, the evidence suggests that is a pretext. For example, the vast majority of Democrats voted for the IWR, because they were lied to, but this was an unforgivable sin only for H Clinton.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
533. It didn't necessarily do John Kerry a world of good either
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:13 PM
Nov 2018

It's one of the reasons the lefter Dems supported Howard Dean.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
538. I think that's why some voted for Nader/Camejo, and others stayed home.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:25 PM
Nov 2018

Kos and bloggers like Swanson ripped him. Unlike Hillary, Kerry lost the popular vote - but just barely.

Two years later, the war was a train wreck and there was a blue wave midterm.

I'd also point out Hillary's opponents in 2008 made a big point about her IWR vote; Obama wasn't a Senator then, which proved advantageous.

spooky3

(34,456 posts)
543. They did, but I don't think the evidence is convincing
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:49 PM
Nov 2018

That the standards applied to her were applied in the same way to others. I think there is a tremendous amount of sexism in society, including in some on the left, that they refuse to address and correct.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
329. the concept that we should bow down to a silly threat is unacceptable
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 03:53 PM
Nov 2018

The idea that we need to nominate a candidate who is totally unacceptable to the vast bulk of the party or face a boycott by one group is unacceptable

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
341. You shouldn't bow down, but you shouldn't flip them off either
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:30 PM
Nov 2018

And I think calling it a "vast bulk/tiny minority" situation is unproductive. Let's hear all sides and let the 2020 primaries do what they are designed to do.

I went through 2016 being pissed off at him for running for the Democratic nomination with a career of I - VT in front of his name, and while I think everyone would be better off if he became a Democrat going forward and took a seat at the table. Where is Sanders wrong at this point? Medicare for all? Raising taxes on the 1%?

At this point, I'm over re fighting 2016. Both sides of the 2016 primary debate need to commit to supporting whoever comes out of that process. I love reading Grantcart's stuff, because s/he (I don't know) writes so well, but how is this essay in another thread called "Bernie" helpful? Both sides of 2016 need to focus on common ground and building bridges. The Republicans and authoritarian billionaires are the enemy, not Bernie Sanders supporters.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
349. I am hopeful that sanders does not run
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:28 PM
Nov 2018

If sanders does run, then there will be ads about the John Lewis incident at the National Convention and questions about the efforts sanders made to help elect trump.

It takes years of hard work to earn a slot to the national convention and it was not fun having my daughter attacked by sanders delegates and called the C-word because she would not get me to change my vote. sanders knew about and took no steps to stop this behavior.

sanders tax returns will also answer some questions about the 2016 race.

Again, I doubt that sanders will run but if he does, there are a ton of democrats with long memories who will not forgive or forget

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
358. I'm sorry you had those experiences
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:34 PM
Nov 2018

If Sanders does run, certainly issues such as you mention will be brought up in the primaries -- assuming that he does run as a Democrat and not as an independent/Green/etc. The voters will weigh those issues accordingly, and that is why primaries should not be coronations, but should be an opportunity for testing and vetting.

At the same time, little is gained looking the rear view mirror if all we seek to do is settle scores from 2016. Everyone would be better served finding issues that Progressives of all stripes can unite around against Trump and the Oligarchs.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
360. The premise of the OP is a threat to help re elect trump
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:47 PM
Nov 2018

Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:20 PM - Edit history (1)

To get onto the ballot as an independent, sanders will have to file tax returns in several blue states. I doubt that sanders will want these returns reviewed or vetted by the press. In addition, if sanders run as an indie, he will lose any chance of everbeing a Senate committee chair.

If sanders goes indie for POTUS, he sill be as hated as nader. nader ruined his place in history by being Rove's tool. sanders risks a similar fate

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
368. I doubt he'd go Indie for POTUS
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:17 PM
Nov 2018

But I also think needlessly pissing off his supporters isn't a great way to win their votes for the party's eventual nominee. They might not vote for Trump, but without motivation that their needs are being heard, they might not vote at all. Then no one wins.

The 2016 primary is in the books. It's time to move forward.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
373. The premise of the OP is offensive and is not designed for unity
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:32 PM
Nov 2018

I reject the concept that the entire Democratic Party must select candidates who are acceptable to a small segment of the base. This is especially difficult given that according to sanders, many members of this progressive base will not vote for African American candidates like Andrew Gillium or Stacy Abrams. It is clear that members of the sanders base may be the margin of victory for DeStanis over Gillium



I reject the concept that we should cater to so-called progressives who evidently are demanding all white candidates. Are you comfortable that we need to only nominate white candidates in order to cater to the sanders base? The so-called progressives who voted against Gillium are not a group who I think that we need to focus on or cater to.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
390. Hmmmmmm....
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:40 PM
Nov 2018

As I understand it, Sanders said this:

"You know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American."

1) I think the comment was clumsy. However, I don't read anything remotely resembling a demand for all white candidates. I think he was trying to say, "there are a lot of racists in Florida and Georgia and that could be a factor." He'd be correct.

2) While it is doubtful that many Dems there were deciding whether they wanted to vote for African-Americans for the first time (Obama won Florida 2x IIRC), Georgia has had deep Red politics for years. Florida has been turning Redder generally since the election of Jeb Bush. If you believe that race isn't a factor in that, then I have beachfront property in Kansas I want to sell you.

3) Bernie Sanders supported former NAACP leader Ben Jealous for Governor of Maryland. So presumably, his supporters followed his lead and voted for Jealous. Yet Republican Larry Hogan won by a wide margin - and for that to happen, a lot of Dems had to cross over. Now, to be fair, Hogan has been praised for being bipartisan. That said, you don't suppose race might have been a factor? It's naive to think it wasn't. Again, Obama won Maryland twice. But in 2016, Trump won 62% of white men and 52% of white women.

4) Gillum and Abrams may yet win. But if they don't, they performed a task that will help future candidates. They kicked the door hard - maybe next time we will break it down. Al Smith had to lose so that some day Jack Kennedy could win.

5) Continued anger with Sanders and his supporters gets us nowhere.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
409. So-called progressive/sanders voters clearly voted against Gilliam in the real world
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 09:52 PM
Nov 2018

It would be a bad move to nominate sanders if his voters are not going to vote for down ballot candidates unless they are white. Andrew Gilliam found that a sanders endorsement is not that valuable in the real world judging from the results posted above.

I am sure that sanders will not be the nominee of the party.

julia b.

(4 posts)
541. i agree
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:34 PM
Nov 2018

look, bernie is just too much for some dems-i am one of them. if nancy does not run after assuming the presidency, how about getting some youngblood in there? i'm thinking a ticket with beto, kamala..moderate yet feisty

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
608. Yup. Some of them might have been people who were just messing with us
Mon Nov 19, 2018, 06:11 AM
Nov 2018

in the primary, trying to nominate someone they thought would be weaker against DT in the general.

He would have loved to have run against a "socialist."

Response to Gothmog (Reply #93)

George II

(67,782 posts)
526. "I will vote for whoever has the best chance of defeating Trump in the 2020"....
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 08:06 PM
Nov 2018

And if it's not a Democrat? Who WILL you vote for?

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
139. It's the old "we'll take our ball and go home" or "we'll boo at the convention and
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:45 PM
Nov 2018

spread rumors that Hillary beat up Bernie" bullshit. There is nothing new in this.

Seems to be a lot of it around here since election day. Our success must have scared some people pretty badly.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
180. I was at the convention and I saw the booing and worst behavior
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:22 PM
Nov 2018

Each candidate has the right to approve their delegates and real candidates vet their delegates. I was vetted by the Clinton campaign and I helped to vet other delegates. The sanders campaign had some delegates who were out of control including a group who decided to yell obscenities at my daughter and call her the c-word because she would not try to get me to change my vote.

The threat in the OP is sad but will have no effect. sanders is not going to be the nominee so long as a large number of democrats remember who hard sanders worked to elect trump

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
191. And virtually everyone in this thread sees through the divisive nonsense. So that's good.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:47 PM
Nov 2018

I'm so sorry you and your daughter were put through that.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
194. Are you one of the JPR posters who approved of the booing of Congressman John Lewis
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:59 PM
Nov 2018

There were a large number of formed DU posters on that thread who were happy to see Congressman John Lewis being booed. I really doubt that sanders will run but if does, you will see ads featuring this stunt.

sanders will not be the nominee of the party so long as the nominee needs support from the groups like Jewish, Latino and African American voters.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
221. Except I just re-read my two comments to Gothmog in this thread, and realized
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:25 PM
Nov 2018

they could be taken exactly the opposite of how I meant them. I hope my subsequent comments cleared it up.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
343. I am still tired from the election
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:09 PM
Nov 2018

It was a very long Tuesday and I had more voter protection calls and sent out more poll watchers than in past elections. I had a ton of calls during early voting and to send poll watchers out during the early vote (which I have never done before).

George II

(67,782 posts)
544. You two are starting to sound like Dan Crenshaw and Pete Davidson (I'M JOKING!!!!) Sometimes....
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:49 PM
Nov 2018

...things typed on a black and white screen without vocal inflection can be taken wrong.

Response to Gothmog (Reply #180)

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
516. Were you at the convention?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:32 PM
Nov 2018

Do you really think that sanders did much to campaign for her? sanders endorsement speech was all about himself as was his speech at the convention. I was there when the sanders delegates booed Congressman John Lewis. I was warned about this stunt 30 minutes before it happened by the Clinton campaign whip. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this event and declined. That incident will be used against sanders if he runs in 2020.

I was at the Texas delegation breakfast when a group of sanders delegates marched in and demanded that we condemn Clinton and change our votes to sanders.




sanders spoke to the Texas delegation the next morning and his speech was again solely about himself. There was a mini-riot due to his delegates the prior morning and the only thing that sanders talked about was himself. sanders did nothing to deal with the fact that his delegates were out of control and did nothing to try to help Hillary Clinton win the general election.

Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused

Many democrats do not believe that sanders really tried to help Clinton. Many democrats blame sanders for helping trump win Sanders clearly took a large number of actions that were designed to hurt the party and help trump.

Response to Gothmog (Reply #516)

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
523. sanders will not be the nominee for so long as African American voters are key to the base
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:58 PM
Nov 2018

I have been to a number of state conventions and I can tell you that sanders did not really try to support Clinton. In 2008, I was part of the Obama voter protection team and we were fighting a number of credential challenges filed by Clinton delegates including one that really challenged all delegates from my county for a reason that I could never figure out. Three days before the Texas convention, Hillary Clinton endorsed President Obama and did so in the proper manner. sanders endorsements and his speeches at the convention were all about sanders.

My daughter went to Denver as the chaperone for a group of high school students and saw Hillary Clinton do what was a proper endorsement of President Obama. I know a couple of delegates who attended that convention and they were amazed at how hard she worked for President Obama. Due to one of my law school classmates, she got see Clinton address one of the caucuses and was amazed at how passionate Hillary Clinton was. There is no comparison to what both Clintons did in 2008 to support President Obama and how sanders behaved.

I know the difference between a real endorsement and what sanders did. I am sorry but I and a large number of democrats do not believe that sanders did much to support Clinton and that he took steps to disrupt the convention and to make the national convention about himself including having his delegates boo Congressman John Lewis. Again, sanders addressed the Texas delegation the morning after his delegates caused a near riot and all sanders did was to talk about himself.

I hope that sanders does not run. I will support the nominee but I am sure that sanders will not be the nominee after the stunts he pulled at the convention. I and other democrats have long memories and we saw what happened up close. My whip works for the party and he and other Clinton campaign types will be happy to tell the world what happened at the convention.

Cary

(11,746 posts)
454. And not much we can do with those who threaten
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:56 AM
Nov 2018

Our path is clear:.get our people out to vote. All politics are local. If certain people want to be included thst's wonderful, but they have to act like adults. One cannot successfully be part of a coalition and be obnoxious about it.

Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #28)

octoberlib

(14,971 posts)
542. It's a threat. They don't give a shit about Hispanic, Black and Jewish folks in this country
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:37 PM
Nov 2018

who are on the receiving end of Trump's White Power crap.

xmas74

(29,674 posts)
556. This. Exactly.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:42 AM
Nov 2018

This is why my 18 year old can't stand Sanders or his supporters. She mentioned dealing with them even this summer while campaigning for McCaskill. She said they refused to help instead wanting to rehash how the party screwed them in 2016.

I'm still dealing with one two years later who has refused to do anything for the party unless we promise to campaign for Sanders if he decides to primary in 2020. They are always younger white men and sometimes women who are loud, like to talk over everyone else, demand to be the center of attention and don't care if anyone else has their needs addressed-just free college and weed.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)
576. You are correct, of course. One wonders what it will take , I know
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:40 PM
Nov 2018

MATH

vote for column 1 you will get MASSIVE climate change, racism and injustice for all but rich W folks...

vote for column 2, even if it is Joe Manchin, you get NONE of that

REAL fucking SIMPLE

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
183. :) Our grand Democratic alliance IS our progressive "wing"!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:25 PM
Nov 2018

Imo, anyone who doesn't understand that liberalism, and thus the Democratic Party, is effectively synonymous with progressivism doesn't understand anything about our party. Almost as clueless as trumpsters soaking up Ann Coulter are on the subject, but mirror images in that none will ever thank Democrats for all they have through progressive government.

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
327. +1. Indeed. Gets long in the tooth at times doesnt it?
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 10:49 AM
Nov 2018

Talk of 2020 already? Politics should'nt be our daily news fare. At some point we need to be able to live our lives trusting the people we put in office to do their fiduciary duty and let citizens have fulfilling lives knowing they truly have our backs. Whats the point of representatives if they only have one constituent...themselves.
We still have results coming in from this round of elections. Good lords. HRC beat Bernie, and she gets less chin music than bernie folks.
To the OP...you have two years...maybe start IU? And we'll come over there and chant about Democrats. I'll be curious to see your response. Just saying.

Glamrock

(11,802 posts)
3. I disagree
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:11 PM
Nov 2018

The party is making room for Sanders and his supporters. That's why he has a leadership position in the party. DU is the entity that doesn't. Vastly different. Don't confuse the two.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
205. it is only on DU that the bernie hate continues
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:33 PM
Nov 2018

I got my only hide for expressing my opinion on why that is

<shrugs>

watching c-span a couple mornings ago, open phones on healthcare and I heard over & ovr again," I agree with Bernie or healthcare is a human right"

so I feel like the country is moving in the right direction

Cha

(297,275 posts)
213. Actually BS gets called out All Over
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:09 PM
Nov 2018

Twitterverse. It's not only here where he gets called on what he says against my Democratic Party.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
235. Why do you think Bernie is the only one saying healthcare is a human right?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:53 PM
Nov 2018

Let's see-- Cory Booker says that.
Gillum says that.

Nancy Pelosi says that.
Kamala Harris says that.

Etc.

In fact, it was a plain old regular Democratic president and momentarily Democratic Congress that has done the most to get us towards that goal.

Why pretend only Sanders is for that? Most Democrats are. And there are some Democrats who have actually done more than talk loudly about it.

still_one

(92,216 posts)
364. and over at JPR Hillary hate runs supreme, along with the Democratic party hate
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:03 PM
Nov 2018

Hillary and President Obama were called every foul name in the book by suppossed progressives

If you got a hide for that, did you appeal?

Bernie didn’t start the healthcare for all conversation, the Democrats have been discussing this for decades

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
480. Hillary hate is equally stupid
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 03:50 PM
Nov 2018

People shouldn't justify doing bad things just because some other people do bad things.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
455. Yet Vermont doesn't have single payer, but Obama actually accomplished
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:00 PM
Nov 2018

the ACA. The Clinton’s ran on health care for everyone decades ago.

No revisionist history, thanks.

questionseverything

(9,656 posts)
597. insurance for everyone is not the same as healthcare for everyone
Thu Nov 15, 2018, 07:11 PM
Nov 2018

which of course is still better than the repub plan of dying fast

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
478. I get hides even when I haven't broken any rule
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 03:48 PM
Nov 2018

As we all know, juries in America are susceptible to bias and people's feelings. We are flawed beings all of us.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
504. I do, but sometimes even that gets ignored.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 06:39 PM
Nov 2018

It is what it is. Change is always difficult for people. It's always been that way. Progress always requires dragging people into the future kicking and screaming.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
482. Much appreciated. I really just want to win.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 03:52 PM
Nov 2018

I wanted Hillary to win, and now I want the Democratic nominee to win NO MATTER WHO IT IS. Meanwhile, attacking progressives is a reallllllly bad idea since we need all the votes we can get.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
234. Sanders isn't IN the party-- by his own choice.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:49 PM
Nov 2018

He doesn't have a leadership position IN the party. He is granted the status of ranking committee member on a Senate committee, but he's not in a leadership position.

He could be, if he wanted to, but he only becomes a Democrat when he wants access to the primaries, apparently.

Glamrock

(11,802 posts)
239. Wrong
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:00 PM
Nov 2018

He is Chairman of outreach for the Senate Democratic Party. Here's the first followup I found.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
273. So what's your problem then?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:44 PM
Nov 2018

Not to be pedantic, but that puts him in the leadership of the Democratic caucus in the Senate, NOT the party. He has agreed to caucus with the Democrats for a long time, and in return is sometimes rewarded with a position.

Anyway, if he actually does have an influence, I'm not really sure what your grievance is. He has a small amount of power in a party he doesn't want to belong to. He's played his cards well so far.

Glamrock

(11,802 posts)
280. What grevience?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:31 PM
Nov 2018

I never said I was upset in any way whatsoever. The Senate Democrats gave him a leadership position. Chairman of Democratic outreach.

Glamrock

(11,802 posts)
392. Chairman of Committee Outreach
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:55 PM
Nov 2018

The Chairman of Committee Outreach is a Democratic United States Senator and member of the party leadership of the United States Senate responsible for representing the views of Senate committee chairs to the chamber's Democratic leadership.

From Wiki

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
6. He has zero chance at winning the nomination.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:13 PM
Nov 2018

2016 was tailor-made for Sanders and that race was over by Super Tuesday.

There are plenty of progressive candidates, such as Harris, who have a much better grasp of issues and a much better chance of getting out the base.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
440. It was not tailor made
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:57 AM
Nov 2018

He had almost no name recognition, no funding and virtually no infrastucture when it started. 2020 would be a radically different proposition.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
446. It was a 1-on-1 contest and he was *the* alternative to a polarizing candidate.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 10:47 AM
Nov 2018

In an anti-establishment environment. You can't ask for a much better situation than that.

Sanders had a following from his years of being a regular guest on Thom Hartmann, and he had developed a lot of name recognition by the time the first primary occurred. The only other non-Clinton candidate in the race at that time was O'Malley, who never gained any traction and dropped out after Iowa.

If you think 2020 will be nearly as favorable for Sanders, I have some bridges to sell you.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
561. Please don't try and re-write history.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 06:46 AM
Nov 2018

Sanders entered the primary polling 57 points behind Hillary. He ended up losing by only about 12 points. Even by July of 2015 an astonishing 68% of latinos 'did not know or had not yet formed an opinion' about him. I can't find the exact numbers now for other demographics groups, but they were terribly, terribly low when the primary started. In April '15 Gallup showed 76% of people polled having 'No opinion' about him.

Now he's a household name and in a poll last month had a favourable of 53-38. That includes a 78% favourability amongst Democrats and a 54% favourability amongst independents.

Make no mistake, he's a very serious contender for the nomination next time around if his health holds up.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
567. Those dates you list are nearly a year before the 1st primary.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:20 AM
Nov 2018

Again, he was *the* Clinton alternative. It was a 1-on-1 contest between him and a polarizing Clinton. That's about as ideal as it gets. And the race was over by Super Tuesday. If not for anti-democratic caucuses, it would have been a much bigger blowout.

Sanders has no chance. Ron Paul always did great in straw polls. But when you don't have the support of your party's base, you aren't going to get nominated.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
592. Were you actually following the primaries?
Wed Nov 14, 2018, 07:10 AM
Nov 2018

Bernie announced on April 28, 2015, and for many months was considered a complete outsider who had absolutely no chance of competing seriously, and as such received very little serious media coverage. At that stage there were a number of other candidates who had better name recognition than Sanders.

Sanders has an excellent chance of getting the nomination due to his consistently high favourables, high polling and lack of major policy baggage. Whether you accept that or not is really up to you, but if you don't you'll get a nasty shock in about a years time.

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
593. Someone who's been in office since 1990 would hardly be "considered a complete outsider."
Wed Nov 14, 2018, 07:27 AM
Nov 2018

LOL Establishment.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
595. By the time of the first primary, Bernie still had low name recognition in many parts of the country
Thu Nov 15, 2018, 06:13 AM
Nov 2018

He'd focused primarily on the first few states, and winning New Hampshire gained him a lot of press elsewhere. It was still far, far too late for an equal contest however, especially in the south where Hillary had such a strong early advantage.

Hillary won the primary, but to try and deny she had an absolutely massive advantage in terms of name recognition and organization is frankly bizarre.

Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
596. I haven't denied that, but you're overemphasizing where things stood a year before Iowa.
Thu Nov 15, 2018, 12:25 PM
Nov 2018

And you're ignoring the fact that Sanders was in a 1-on-1 race against a polarizing candidate in an anti-establishment environment. All non-Clinton supporters had 1 and only 1 option. That won't be the case in 2020, and Sanders has done nothing to improve his standing with the base.

 

Kentonio

(4,377 posts)
606. You seem to have forgotten the earlier part of the primary race
Mon Nov 19, 2018, 05:53 AM
Nov 2018

It only ended up 1-on-1 because the other numerous candidates couldn't raise enough support to contest the race effectively. Have you forgotten about Martin O'Malley already? Lincoln Chaffee? Jim Webb? Lawrence Lessig?

As for what Sanders has or hasn't done with the base, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see him in an excellent position for 2020. If he was 10 years younger I'd be putting money on it.

LuvLoogie

(7,010 posts)
8. I always vote for a Democrat in any Democratic primary.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:13 PM
Nov 2018

Being from Chicago, I don't put ketchup on my hot dogs, either.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
9. But ketchup is good
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:15 PM
Nov 2018

Especially spicy ketchup from whataburger. If you’re ever in the Southwest, order it

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
104. I love Whataburger
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:23 PM
Nov 2018

From the Houston paper https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Ted-Cruz-Beto-O-Rourke-Whataburger-spicy-ketchup-13144032.php?utm_campaign=fb-desktop&utm_source=CMS+Sharing+Button&utm_medium=social



Whataburger seems to inject itself into just about any conversation about Texas, so it was only a matter of time before the fast-food chain was dragged into the state's politics.

Ted Cruz's campaign issued a statement to the Star-Telegram on Thursday concerning the likeness of Beto O'Rourke's campaign logo and Whataburger's spicy ketchup.

As many social media users have pointed out, both black and white designs share some similarities.


Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
331. I have a ton of Whataburger spicy ketschup packets that I ended using last night
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 03:56 PM
Nov 2018

I still have a good supply of these packets

Wounded Bear

(58,662 posts)
13. So we should be reasonable and do it your way?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:18 PM
Nov 2018

Interesting. Yeah, we need your support. It remains to be seen if we need to cede control of the entire party to you.

I get plenty of 'my way or the highway' crap from the right. Now I need to be threatened from the left, too?

Whatever.



How about we decide things, oh, I don't know, democratically?

OAITW r.2.0

(24,504 posts)
14. Asking for a friend.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:18 PM
Nov 2018

Are you returning from JPR? I've heard this song before here. You have 2 choices: work with the Democrats who are open to many of Bernie's ideas or work with the Republicans who are not..

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
26. You don't really want a big tent though
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:32 PM
Nov 2018

You want everyone else in the tent to give you the tent...or else.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
346. I think they'd like the others in the tent to stop treating them like the enemy
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:18 PM
Nov 2018

The main body of Sanders support are further left than the Democratic mainstream, but at the end of the day, we mostly all want the same things.

...or are you not interested in getting independents to vote for our candidates?

qazplm135

(7,447 posts)
353. I am not interested in
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:06 PM
Nov 2018

Either or propositions that presuppose loss if Sanders followers don't feel all the love.

OAITW r.2.0

(24,504 posts)
37. Yes it is!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:39 PM
Nov 2018

I look forward to you working with the Bernista's to get them into the tent. BS will be far more effecctive in the Senate in 2020 when the Democrats take the Senate and the Presidency.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
238. That kind of sounds like the point of the Democratic Party is to make Bernie "more effective."
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:58 PM
Nov 2018

I think we would do better to expend party resources on, you know, Stacey Abrams sorts of people, not some old guy in Vermont who can't bring himself to put D after his name even at this point.

He's ineffective by design.

OAITW r.2.0

(24,504 posts)
244. Absolutely agree.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:19 PM
Nov 2018

I just want to see realmirage (I kinda like that moniker) using his time and energy getting Bernie's "Never Dems" followers to reconsider the political reality. You got two choices for Federal offices - us or them. Anything else is a wasted vote.

Response to Gothmog (Reply #334)

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
519. So sanders was lying about his supporters not voting for African Americans?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:40 PM
Nov 2018

The voting results posted in this thread shows that sanders supporters or so-called progressives voted voted against a true progressive named Andrew Gillium and these votes were sufficient to give DeSantis the margin of victory.

It seems that sanders knows his supporters very well

Response to Gothmog (Reply #519)

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
16. As requested, I asked the young person in my house what he thinks of Bernie Sanders.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:21 PM
Nov 2018

The response: He's a populist demagogue who got Trump elected.

We like liberal Democrats in this family.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
21. Did you bother looking at the
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:27 PM
Nov 2018

Washington post article in the OP? And where did this young person get this idea?

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
70. Where did my son get this idea? By using his critical thinking skills, methinks.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:05 PM
Nov 2018

I read the WaPo, my son did not.

You may be sorry he didn't provide the response that suits you, but I am not.

I'm pleased that he is going to carry on the family tradition of supporting liberal Democrats.


 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
116. You miss my point
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:31 PM
Nov 2018

Your son may have a different view, but that article I posted should frighten people who think attacking their cause is a wise decision.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
201. I did not miss your point, you are threatening Democrats...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:12 PM
Nov 2018

that if we don't bend to your will that you are going to take your ball and go home.

I don't think Democrats are going to respond well to your threats.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
345. You can be righteously angry and Progressives who support Sanders can simply fail to show up
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:13 PM
Nov 2018

Who wins there? Are you going to be Joe Crowley and just assume they'll show up or that you can live without them? AOC sits in his seat now.

Republicans want walls. We should want bridges. Instead of fighting 2016 over and over, let's find common ground for 2020.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
347. People who don't show up to stop Trump are not "progressives."
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:20 PM
Nov 2018

Sorry, but these folks have no claim to the term. These folks are regressives. Pure and simple.

Threats by regressives that they will sit out 2020 are not going to win friends among Democratic loyalists.

I support Democrats.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
355. I support: affordable healthcare; a living wage for all who work; affordable college;
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:17 PM
Nov 2018

... creating good American jobs; fighting climate change; ending racial profiling; ending the war on drugs; trimming the bloated and wasteful defense budget; making the Billionaires pay their share; and ending the war in Afghanistan

For these reasons, I choose to be a Democrat. But if the Democrats consistently failed to make progress on these issues that are important to me, then I'd look for another party. If I couldn't find a party that supported some of these things, eventually I'd disengage from politics altogether.

We need to think less about the party we support and more about the issues we believe are the most important. Work to find commonalities and cooperation.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
356. I'm under the impression that this is a website for committed and loyal Democrats.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:21 PM
Nov 2018

Not one for those who wish to threaten our party with "my way or the highway" type blackmail.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
366. Your impression is not quite correct
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:12 PM
Nov 2018
Democratic Underground is an online community for friendly, politically liberal people who understand the importance of working together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. Constructive criticism of Democratic politicians, party officials, and public figures is welcome and encouraged, but we expect our members to follow our forum rules and participate in a manner which promotes a positive atmosphere.

Members are not expected to hold across-the-board progressive opinions on every single issue, but we do expect members to be generally progressive and to support Democrats at election time -- remember that and respect it when posting. Harsh, divisive, partisan attacks against Democrats or progressive values (from the right or the left) are not welcome here.

But above all, we want our members to be friendly to each other. The vast majority of our members are thoughtful people who care about issues, and most of us can handle a different opinion if it is shared in a respectful way. No matter where you stand on the political spectrum, a little human kindness goes a long way toward smoothing over our differences and making this place feel like a community.


Terms of Service

It's not for "committed and loyal Democrats" - at least not exclusively. It's for liberals/progressives who want to get Democrats elected.

And what the OP said isn't blackmail. Blackmail is "I'll tell your spouse about your sleeping with prostitutes unless you give me $5,000." That's not the construct here. Votes have to be earned; the OP is laying out the perspective s/he has on earning the votes of Sanders supporters. If you tell your boss "I need a 15% raise or I'm taking a job elsewhere", that's not blackmail. It's offering your boss a choice - albeit an unpleasant one. You have an arrangement that isn't viable for one of you. Wouldn't you prefer that your boss engage you and at least try to see if something can be worked out?
 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
367. Threatening Democrats and engaging in blackmail isn't friendly.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:16 PM
Nov 2018

Saying nominate my candidate or I walk is blackmail. Sorry. You are wrong.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
370. 1) You aren't the least bit sorry. 2) With all due respect, I'm correct
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:20 PM
Nov 2018

Blackmail defined

the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person.

Small-Axe, you have less than 100 posts, so welcome to DU! Meet other posters. Reach out. Make friends. Build bridges.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
371. I don't need lectures about building bridges from people who are actively threatening my party.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:23 PM
Nov 2018

With "friends" like that, who needs enemies?

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
374. Think less about party and more about issues
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:35 PM
Nov 2018

Don't make it binary. There are a lot of shades between friend and enemy. Try to learn nuance.

Hatred and stubbornness are threatening not only the party, but America generally. People who are fixated on what they dislike about Sanders need to look harder at what they have in common with him.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
377. I do not require or desire your ongoing lectures.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:42 PM
Nov 2018

When in comes to elections, life in America is binary.

Either one supports Democrats or they do not.

People in the latter category are not friends.

Period!

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
384. Welcome to DU
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:07 PM
Nov 2018

I agree with your analysis. The premise of the OP is that the party must accept a candidate who is unacceptable to a majority of the base or watch these so called progressives work to re-elect trump. This progressive base will also only accept white candidates. Andrew Gilliam is losing due to the so-called progressives.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
387. Thank you for the support and the welcome.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:22 PM
Nov 2018

I think there is confusion in some quarters about what's progressive and what is regressive.

The threats only solidify my determinination to resist those who'd resort to blackmail.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
425. Calm down no one is threatening anyone
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 01:55 AM
Nov 2018

The op clearly is asking for unity. And if you think young progressives are mature enough to be attacked and have their candidates attacked and then go out and vote for your candidate you don’t know young people very well. It’s just common sense.

Flaming allies in general is not very smart.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
451. The premise of the OP is offensive and is not designed for unity
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:28 AM
Nov 2018

The premise of the OP is that is the Democratic Party does nominate a candidate who is totally unacceptable to the vast majority of the base of the party, a small minority will do what they did in Florida and vote for independent candidates and help elect a republican. The vote of members of sanders base are the votes that gave DeDantis his margin of victory. sanders supporters would not vote for an African American and according to sanders this is okay.

sanders will not be the nominee of the party. There are far too many democrats who remember how hard sanders worked to help elect trump

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
460. You should take your own advice. Reality based input is not
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:27 PM
Nov 2018

an “attack”. If you can’t win in very liberal California — now two election cycles — then it looks like you are the one who needs to reassess. Reality only. Thanks.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
449. Then you should quit flaming allies if you feel it's so important.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:21 AM
Nov 2018

“Flaming allies in general is not very smart.” Then quit doing it. Thanks.

BTW, this opposite world campaign is not going to fly. We know who was attacked and which candidates were helped to harm her. The Russian’s helped Stein, Sanders and Trump. Those are known facts. That’s the reality framework.

What a hoot to say that only one man can’t be “attacked” while any Democrat is held to a different standard.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
391. Peace be with you
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:46 PM
Nov 2018

Again, welcome to DU. We need more DUers to realize that it is not the size of the axe that matters, but how that axe is used.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
369. "Eventually I'd disengage from politics altogether."
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:17 PM
Nov 2018

SMH.

Your vote is not the gift you give to the person who gives you everything you want. The purpose of our elections is not to present you with a mini-me to vote for. Your vote is not the prize you give only to the person who is like you, and who makes you tingle, and who gives your self-image a boost. Voting for the person whose policies you favor over the policies of the other candidates is YOUR CIVIC DUTY. We need to get back to the understanding that we have a civic duty.

We need to think less about our vote as a statement about our individuality. We need to think more about our vote as our civic duty as a member of an enormous Democracy.

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
421. Important point: "We need to think less about our vote as a statement about our individuality."
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 11:09 PM
Nov 2018

It's not like choosing a signature scent to express your personality!

It's like a bad commercial where two nearly identical products are placed side by side and one of them is thoroughly trashed, what a dummy you'd be to chose THAT one, be smarter and more special than those ordinary people; buy THIS one, everyone will be impressed and you will never be alone on a Saturday night again.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
138. Yes but the difference is that I understood it
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:45 PM
Nov 2018

sanders was eliminated mathematically in 2016 following Super Tuesday. sanders was not vetted by the press because no one in the press thought that sanders was a real or serious candidate. sanders would not survive a real vetting.

Again, there are a large number of democrats who believe that sanders helped trump win and we have long memories. We will not forgive or forget. sanders will not be the nominee when there are so many real democrats who are actual members of the party.

The new DNC rule will force sanders to actually join the party and force sanders to campaign as a member of the party



In addition, new ballot access laws will require sanders to release five or ten years of tax returns. I really doubt that sanders will run in 2020 but if he does he will be grilled in the debates about his actions that were designed to help trump win.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
184. The article did not support the claims of the OP
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:33 PM
Nov 2018

sanders will never be the nominee of the party. sanders would alienated and lose the support of African American women voters, Jews and Latinos if he was the nominee. These groups are far more important to the party compared to the group identified in the OP.

BTW, these voters did show up in 2018 without sanders being on the ballot.

Again, sanders will never be the nominee so long as a large number of democrats remember how sanders worked to help trump be elected

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
216. I know. It is funny because you are correct, and the poster who is insisting
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:14 PM
Nov 2018

we read the WP article is misinterpreting what it means.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
375. I seriously doubt that the OP read the article cited because such article does not support the OP
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:39 PM
Nov 2018

Again, the article cited does not support the concept that we have to nominate a candidate that many members of the party find to be totally unacceptable or face a boycott by young voters. Young voters turned out in greater numbers in 2018 without sanders being the nominee of the party

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
378. I think I read that 31% of them voted. That is an awesome increase over their average.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:43 PM
Nov 2018

This whole topic of "vote for Sanders or else" seems to me to be really quite dead. The rest of the world has moved on, and no one is insisting on president Bernie, even among his old fans.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
386. The increase in the voting percentage of young and Latino voters make me smile
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:11 PM
Nov 2018

I do not believe that sanders will be the nominee. There are a large number of Democrats with long memories who will not forget or forgive sanders for his efforts in helping trump win.

Texas will turn blue. This cycle gives me hope that Texas will be a true battleground state in 2020

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
129. You do know that russia helped sanders a great deal
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:39 PM
Nov 2018

Russia was helping sanders for a reason https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/

WASHINGTON – It turns out Donald Trump wasn’t the only candidate the Russians allegedly tried to help during the 2016 presidential campaign.

A 37-page indictment resulting from special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation shows that Russian nationals and businesses also worked to boost the campaigns of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and Green party nominee Jill Stein in an effort to damage Democrat Hillary Clinton.

The Russians “engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump,” according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.

sanders success to some degree was due to Russia

sanders will not be the nominee of the party in 2020. There are a large number of democrats who have long memories and will not forgive or forget the role that sanders and russia played in election trump
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
132. How does this answer the question?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:41 PM
Nov 2018

What is the strategy to win without progressives? Especially alienated young progressives as described in the wapo article I posted?

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
147. sanders is not the only progressive
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:48 PM
Nov 2018

sanders will not be the nominee of the party. There are other progressives in the party. Hopefully, the progressive wing has realized that staying home will only help trump. That is what happened in 2016



Threats will not change anyone's mind on this
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
150. Your crystal ball says?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:50 PM
Nov 2018

And attacking the most recognized progressive and his supporters, especially the young voters I linked to in the OP, how is this wise? No one has yet answered the one question I keep asking.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
169. I was a delegate to the national convention and I have a very different view of bernie
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:08 PM
Nov 2018

I saw Bernie up close and Bernie will not be the nominee. Again, the sanders delegates had a planned stunt to boo Congressman John Lewis. The Clinton campaign warned all of her delegates 30 or so minutes in advance of the stunt. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop the stunt and declined.

I know that the JPR types and other sanders supporters love this stunt https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/ the Texas delegation shared a bus with the Georgia delegation. There were some people who were very upset with this stunt. I can assure that this stunt will be used in ads if sanders runs in 2020. sanders had little support from key elements of the base and would have less if he runs again. This stunt will be used against sanders. There are a ton of people in the Clinton campaign who were at the convention and would back this ad up.

African American voters and African American women voters are far more important to the party compared to these young progressives. Again, Clinton won in 2016 despite sanders' efforts to sabatoge her, James Comey, Russia and GOP voter suppression.



Your threats will not help sanders. bernie will not be the nominee of the party so long as a large number of democrats remember what bernie did.

oasis

(49,388 posts)
222. Dems should press Bernie on why he didn't act to stop disrespectful
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:25 PM
Nov 2018

stunt against civil rights icon, John Lewis. This needs to be brought up until the Democratic Party gets a satisfactory answer.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
336. sanders supporters think that such conduct was justified
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:16 PM
Nov 2018

sanders supporters applauded and agreed with this conduct. Read this post on JPR by sanders supporters on why they think that this was a good move by sanders and the sanders delegates https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/ According to my whip, this was a planned stunt and sanders refused to stop it. sanders knows that his base supported this move and sanders did not want to alienate his base of supporters.

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
208. Because you keep evading the obvious. Sanders holds the key himself.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:40 PM
Nov 2018

He just doesn't want to walk in that door.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
420. Your question assumes we are all in agreement that BS is a progressive.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 11:06 PM
Nov 2018

I rather disagree, as highlighted by this week's comments.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
603. It bothers me a great deal that Russia and Putin pushed sanders and helped him
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 02:46 PM
Nov 2018

Putin and Russia flooded sites like JPR and other sanders sites with fake news to hurt Clinton https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fake-news-russia_us_58c34d97e4b0ed71826cdb36

Last June, John Mattes started noticing something coursing like a virus through the Facebook page he helped administer for Bernie Sanders fans in San Diego. People with no apparent ties to California were friending the page and sharing links from unfamiliar sites full of anti-Hillary Clinton propaganda.

The stories they posted weren’t the normal complaints he was used to seeing as the Vermont senator and the former secretary of state fought out the Democratic presidential primary. These stories alleged that Clinton had murdered her political opponents and used body doubles.

Mattes, 66, had been a television reporter and Senate investigator in previous lives. He put his expertise in unmasking fraudsters to work. At first, he suspected that the sites were created by the old Clinton haters from the ‘90s ― what Hillary Clinton had dubbed “the vast right-wing conspiracy.”

But when Mattes started tracking down the sites’ domain registrations, the trail led to Macedonia and Albania. In mid-September, he emailed a few of his private investigator friends with a list of the sites. “Very creepy and i do not think Koch brothers,” he wrote.

At one point, JPR had a half dozen threads on the greatest page of that website pushing the pizzagate story. After being laughed at on DU, the JPR site eventually ban pizzagate stories which were replaced by numerous other stories from Russia including some claiming that Clinton was dying

See also Russia Duped Bernie Fans via Facebook, San Diego Dems Toldhttps://timesofsandiego.com/politics/2017/03/23/russia-duped-bernie-fans-via-facebook-san-diego-dems-told/
Oliver Mitov was dispatched by the Kremlin to get Bernie Sanders fans to vote third-party in the November election, write in the Democratic primary loser for president — or not vote at all.

John Mattes speaks to San Diego Democrats for Equality, the the predominantly gay club in Hillcrest. Photo by Ken Stone
But investigative journalist John Mattes, describing how fake stories on Facebook helped defeat Hillary Clinton, isn’t sure who Mitov is.

“He may be a bot. He may be a person [or four]. He may be living in Macedonia, laughing,” Mattes told a rapt audience of 90 Thursday night in Hillcrest.
But Mitov’s thousands of posts — and similar ones from Albania and elsewhere — duped just enough of the 13 million Sanders supporters to hand the election to Donald Trump and prove Russia could hack American democracy, said the 66-year-old resident of Pacific Beach.
A major Sanders organizer in Southern California himself, Mattes admitted that “we were played.”

Again, Mueller has documented the support that Russia gave to Sanders. I trust Mueller on this.

Again, many voters will want to know why Putin and Russia put some much effort into promoting sanders if sanders runs again. If sanders runs in 2020 he will need to provide a better answer to this question than he has so far

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
287. Yes, it's the ideology.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:59 PM
Nov 2018

Members of this religion believe that universal health care, higher minimum wages, more affordable education, economic inequality are new ideas unique to Sanders.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
237. I asked my youngster as requested.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:56 PM
Nov 2018

Sanders is old news to him. He's for Kamala Harris right now. Says Sanders talks a good game, but doesn't get anything done.

Someone in their 40s would be more useful to the progressive movement than someone older than Mom.

xmas74

(29,674 posts)
557. My 18 year old likes Harris,
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:55 AM
Nov 2018

Kennedy, Beto, Warren and Klobucher. She plans to be a campaign manager someday so she is more informed than the average kid but she says they all have that something.

She was a huge Kander fan and still really likes him but has said he'll never make a run for the WH after his announcement of PTSD, though we're hoping he can make a fantastic governor.

xmas74

(29,674 posts)
588. Thank you!
Wed Nov 14, 2018, 12:15 AM
Nov 2018

She's majoring in public relations with an emphasis in political media and a double minor in French and marketing. While most kids spent the summer after graduating from high school traveling or hanging out she spent it canvassing, phone banking, texting, attending events and entering paperwork as part of an unpaid internship for McCaskill and Galloway. The end result was a 1-1 with a loss by McCaskill and a win by Galloway. It was a hard loss for her but something she will need to get used to with her career choice.

markpkessinger

(8,401 posts)
589. The notion that Bernie got Trump elected is patently absurd
Wed Nov 14, 2018, 12:39 AM
Nov 2018

The whole idea is based on the assumption that those Bernie voters who didn't vote for Hillary in the general election, which has been estimated to have been around 12% of Bernie primary voters, would have ever voted for Hillary in the first place. I've got news for you: they never would have. They were voters Bernie had the ability to bring into the party that Hillary did not.

 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
17. The progressive wing? Show me a strong center Dem who hasn't also held a progressive claim
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:24 PM
Nov 2018

Progressive is not an exclusive wing. It defines the continuous move of those Democrats thru history who fought for parity & equality across the board.

You lay no claim to exclusivity without recognizing those Democrats who have also worn the progression of positive forward policy till their shoes wore thin.

Their is no progressive wing. Progress belongs to all who proudly have worn the Democratic label for the good of this country.
I can think of a few seriously non-progressive choices Sen Sanders himself has made throughout his history.
Just the other day we were shocked to see 2 recent theories of his emerge that would cause one to question his claim of Progressiveness as held above the Democratic values.
Where exactly, then, does progressive begin and where is the line drawn?

In this case, one would see that progressive is not exclusive but it is rather, fluid.

You tell me.




Me.

(35,454 posts)
25. Do You Have A Clue As To Why There Is Spate Of These Threads
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:30 PM
Nov 2018

Is it because BS keeps saying unfortunate things and his supporters are getting nervous. Are they afraid he has shot himself in the foot? What do you think.

 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
41. Oh yes. You are precisley right ME. No progressive on the planet can defend His recent comments &
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:41 PM
Nov 2018

walk away convinced he is still progressive.

Tough task convincing a base of that reality after the horse is outta the barn & running amok.



 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
55. When you omit an entire history of policy by the Democratic leaders & stand there claiming to be the
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:54 PM
Nov 2018

exclusive placeholder of progressivism, then you have chosen division before progress.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
456. Exactly! Very well said.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:07 PM
Nov 2018

It’s these attacks on reality that are completely unsustainable and look to be soundly rejected by the majority of the electorate — going on two years now.


Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
348. For many, HRC lost her credibility with Progressives when she voted for the IWR
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:22 PM
Nov 2018

Keep in mind - I supported Hillary in 2016. But you asked about the line. That was a bright line for a lot of people.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,790 posts)
531. Yes
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:10 PM
Nov 2018

...and being completely fair, after 9-11, there was no way in 2003 that the recently-elected junior Senator from New York was voting against anything involving the war on terror - no matter how stupid it looked to many of the rest of us.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,355 posts)
18. .
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:25 PM
Nov 2018
"Now ask yourself, how would you win without that percentage that DOES vote? What if it went down by half? What if they turn away from our Party and do something stupid like vote Green Party because we don’t make room for Sanders and the progressive movement in our big tent?"


You ever ask yourself how you would win if the absolute rock solid most reliable Democratic voting bloc, black women, went down by half, or turned away from the party because they're sick of people saying they had to put aside their feelings so there was hope for tomorrow? That they're not mature enough to do the hard adult stuff and support ALL the people in the big tent? GTFO with this hot garbage.

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
33. It's a huge tent, yet Bernie still can't seem to fit himself in it.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:35 PM
Nov 2018

Lead by example.

Right now his example has been to leave the Democratic Party. I don’t like it. Neither do many people working hard to fill this big tent of which you speak.

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
73. My plan is to support Democrats and our progressive platform.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:06 PM
Nov 2018

The tent is wide open to anyone who wants to join the progressive cause, including Bernie himself.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
269. Why are you so sure that "his supporters" won't vote sensibly?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:34 PM
Nov 2018

They aren't cult members, like the Trumpians, are they?
They can think for themselves, right?

They are more dedicated to progressive ideas than they are dedicated to one person, right?

This isn't all about Sanders, is it?

Everyone is welcome into the Democratic party, including Sen. Sanders.

lapucelle

(18,268 posts)
283. BS still has two years to acquire the leadership skills necessary
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:55 PM
Nov 2018

to turn out obdurate followers in support of the Democratic Party's nominee. You should have more confidence in his abilities.

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
89. Is this another Bernie or Bust effort or something?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:17 PM
Nov 2018

No one is stopping his supporters from joining the party. Our progressive platform obviously invites and welcomes other progressives.

I imagine that if Bernie joined the party, so would his supporters. And it would shut up the noise about him not being a Democrat. Problem solved, no?

But instead the party will be held hostage because..... fuck I don’t even know his real rationale for not joining the party he wants to lead. Why in the hell does he have to play games and make it so complicated?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
101. And tell me how it is wise
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:22 PM
Nov 2018

to attack them when we know his support among young voters, and we know very well how immature young people can be when you attack them? You want them staying home? Did you look at the link in he OP?

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
163. No one is attacking them.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:59 PM
Nov 2018

No one is denying them a progressive platform. No one is denying them entrance to the party. No one is denying them a voice. That's obvious by the amount of young people drawn to the party by Democrats like Beto.

Why is it so hard to just admit that Bernie is making this harder on himself? Why has he created a situation that he knows is likely to split Democrats apart? There is an easy solution to this, but you just want to deflect from that.


 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
232. Your usage of the word 'attack' is consistently wrong.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:45 PM
Nov 2018

Is that simply due to a lack of relevant knowledge, or do you believe your melodrama is a progressive value?

"we know very well how immature young people can be when you attack them"
Yeah... reading your responses does give us an indication of that.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
127. That's EXACTLY what this is! You nailed it!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:38 PM
Nov 2018
Is this another Bernie or Bust effort or something?
That's EXACTLY what this is! You nailed it! The subtext of the entire OP is that it's "his turn" and that Democrats should fully expect that his handful of supporters will threaten to hold the party hostage (presumably as some sort of "punishment" when Bernie fails to secure the nomination.)

It's all so very Susan Sarandonesque... truly bizarre. It's the 2020 version of "Bernie or Bust" threat.

Hekate

(90,712 posts)
559. Tammy is a great American hero & great Dem, but the only one who can save us, the OP says...
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 02:56 AM
Nov 2018

...again and again ad infinitum, is the old guy who waves his arms a lot and is not a Democrat.

xmas74

(29,674 posts)
587. My 18 year old can't stand him.
Wed Nov 14, 2018, 12:10 AM
Nov 2018

She thinks he's ineffective and only aims to totally dismantle the Democratic Party.

She is a proud Democrat and wants to be a campaign manager when she finishes her degree. She's probably more knowledgeable at her age then most are in a lifetime.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
71. Then Sanders supporters should come inside
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:05 PM
Nov 2018

...rather than insisting the tent moves to him.

Youthful arrogance is still arrogance.

brer cat

(24,573 posts)
266. +++
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:22 PM
Nov 2018

and thank you! The idea that we must "make room" for their idol or they will take their ball and go home is immature, narcissistic, and political suicide. If their self-identified "wing" is to have power, they must learn to work within our tent, not demand that we tear it down and build a new one just to their specifications. The OP needs to grow up.

Totally Tunsie

(10,885 posts)
20. I'm curious, realmirage, and need to ask you at what point or what event
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:26 PM
Nov 2018

your opinion of Bernie Sanders did a 180 degree turn?

Your posts from 2016 provide a very different perspective on him. Here's a sample of your comments back then:


Posted by realmirage | Sun May 8, 2016, 01:44 AM (55 replies)

I will never, ever vote for Sanders, even if a miracle made him the nom
After what happened here

https://www.google.com/amp/thedailybanter.com/.amp/2016/05/sanders-shout-obscenities-clinton-rally/?client=safari#

The camapaign is now something that I want nothing to do with ever, for any reason, and I must say I am so glad that Hillary has beaten him, and it will be a good day when I'm watching him concede, and then pack up and go back to Vermont, never to run for pres again.



Posted by realmirage | Fri May 6, 2016, 01:53 PM (60 replies)

Sanders doing permanent damage to his "revolution"
I guess BS hasn't learned the tough lesson Ted Kennedy learned after losing to jimmy carter and helping Reagan win. Reagan's win ushered in a new era of wealth inequality via trickle down economics that we are still fighting to this day.

All this negative campaigning against Hillary when the primary is basically over is doing more damage to his own image and movement than anything else. His goal to use super delegates to win has, for many, shifted his image from an honest man who cares about America, to a sore loser who wants to win at all costs. Many will remember that first when recalling his bid for the White House, rather than his message.

We never learn from history, and so we shall always repeat it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can I trust this guy to run a country?

The whole "my wife does my taxes and we don't have time to print a copy" thing makes him sound like just some unprepared private citizen trying to run for president. That coupled with his inability to answer how he'd accomplish his key issues in the NY interview.... I dunno about this guy. If he can't print a freakin tax return how can he handle the complicated ISIS war in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan?

Posted by realmirage | Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:06 PM (30 replies)




 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
36. I'm so glad you posted that
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:38 PM
Nov 2018

Because if I had, it would be alerted on as refighting the primaries. It is my personal philosophy that every human being must be dedicated to growth and adjusting one’s perspective when reality reveals that one’s perspective needs growth.

In other words, we live and learn. Trumps win 2 years ago was an earthquake in the minds of all sane people. It forced me to reconsider my views. I thought Hillary could win the electoral college and was the strongest candidate. But my wishes about the electoral college and reality didn’t align. So I took a second look at Sanders and realized we need him and his supporters, and that he has a lot of good ideas, and also that logic tells me he has a very good shot at winning the nomination in 2020 judging by the amount of support he had last time.

Hence, my current stance.

We always ridiculed George W for bragging that he never changes his mind about anything. Remember the whole flip flopper attacks on Kerry? Is that what you want to do to me now? Judge me for dedicating myself to changing my mind when it is right to do so?

My initial point stands. We need Sanders supporters. How are we going to win without them?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
52. Do you assume that "Sanders supporters" won't vote for the party's nominee...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:50 PM
Nov 2018
My initial point stands. We need Sanders supporters. How are we going to win without them?
Do you assume that "Sanders supporters" won't vote for the party's nominee... UNLESS the nominee is Sanders himself? (That sounds like you're saying it's "his turn".) I'd hope that "Sanders supporters" would be mature enough to vote for the party's nominee, but you seem to be unsure about whether or not they would. Why?
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
58. I'm questioning
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:54 PM
Nov 2018

the wisdom of attacking people we want to vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is. And you and I both know that younger voters are immature enough to stay home if we alienate them, their candidates, and their views. It’s about doing the wise thing and recognizing we need to keep that big tent open. That’s all.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
78. There's NOTHING "wise" about allowing
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:08 PM
Nov 2018
It’s about doing the wise thing and recognizing we need to keep that big tent open. That’s all.
There's NOTHING "wise" about giving someone an open forum to spew lies about Democrats and the Democratic party. That is more destructive then offending a handful of voters who "are immature enough to stay home". You know good and well that our "Big Tent" party is about striving to educate, empower, enlighten and lift up everyone... it's NOT about sinking to accommodate the lowest common denominator. As a party we must have standards. Caving-in to threats is not something that Democrats do.

Instead, I think it's much more important that our "allies" stop attacking and denigrating and smearing Democrats and the Democratic party. Such things only serve to create divisions, distrust and suspicions. It weakens and tarnishes the party, it makes Democrats seems less attractive when a supposed "ally" is claiming that there's no difference between the parties or that Democrats are the "party of the one-percent" or that Democrats are "corrupt" or that Democrats are "feeble" or that Democrats are "ideologically bankrupt".

I'm questioning the wisdom of attacking people we want to vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is.
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but there's NO amount of coddling with change that type of voter. Fuck them. Fuck anyone who wants to hold the party hostage with those types of threats to not support the nominee because they believe it's "his turn".

All I'm saying is that our party has an greater obligation to honesty and integrity and to the greater good. It has no obligation to make special accommodations for, or pander to, disappointed "immature" (your word) voters.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
103. LOL
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:23 PM
Nov 2018
Big tents win elections Divided movements fail


Oh, please! GMAFB! Who is going to donate to, or support, or vote for Democrats when all they hear someone saying is that we're "no different" from Republicans, or that "Democrats are corrupt"?? That's the sort of thing that Nader and Stein say. It's indefensible and it's not helping.

There's NO amount of coddling that will change that type of voter. Fuck them. Fuck anyone who wants to hold the party hostage with those types of threats to not support the nominee because they believe it's "his turn". That's Susan Sarandon's message. FUCK HER TOO!

I'd rather see our Big-Tent party put more effort in being able to attract "center" and "center-right" voters. Those voters are much more plentiful than the ones you've been describing. They're also much more mature and reliable. Why alienate millions of centrist voters in the pursuit of a handful of 2020 malcontents who will "only vote for the Democratic nominee if it's Bernie".
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
218. I'll let you try and get the trump voters
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:22 PM
Nov 2018

While I ask that people not attack our progressive allies. How about that?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
231. Oh brother! Nobody is "attacking" our "progressive allies".
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:41 PM
Nov 2018
I'll let you try and get the trump voters While I ask that people not attack our progressive allies. How about that?
Oh brother! Nobody is "attacking" our "progressive allies". Nobody is even attacking Bernie.

What's new and unfamiliar to many of them is that they're no longer getting special treatment and they're being challenged and rebutted when attacking and smearing the Democratic Party, and Democrats... or when they're blackmailing the party. Because we're not coddling them and pampering them, many are probably mistaking NORMAL treatment as being abusive. (Poor things. I'm sure in time they'll learn to cope.)

In the meantime, our party's Big Tent has flaps are wide open. These "immature" (your word) voters are certainly welcome to enter the tent. But I can assure you that this tent is TOO BIG to pull-up-stakes and move it over to them simply because they refuse to budge. Let them join US. We're not going to join them on their terms.

That's some serious Susan Sarandon shit right there. Fuck that! And FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!! She's worthless.
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
256. If what you describe is what actually happens here, I'd agree
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:39 PM
Nov 2018

Unfortunately, the attacks on Sanders and progressives is non stop and terribly self defeating. Anyone who is here regularly can't avoid the hate posts against progressives and Sanders himself. People wait for every little reason to spring to action against him and progressives. But we can't afford to look back. We need to win in 2020 because there's a lot more at stake here than our feelings about the past. And those who remember me here from 2016 know that I walk that walk. No one wanted Hillary more than me.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
270. Nobody is attacking Sanders.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:34 PM
Nov 2018
the attacks on Sanders and progressives is non stop
You're wrong. Nobody is attacking Sanders. Nobody is attacking "progressives".

People wait for every little reason to spring to action against him and progressives.
That's not true and you know it. I do, however think that it's quite fair and appropriate to respond forcefully when the Democratic party is smeared, vilified, attacked and denigrated. I also think it's correct to respond forcefully whenever someone tries to coddle or be dismissive of, or make excuses for, racism and racists. That's not "attacking" him. It's a justified and well-deserved response.

No one wanted Hillary more than me.
That's quite a boast. I'll bet you're wrong about that, too.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
503. Keep laughing!
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 06:27 PM
Nov 2018
To say nobody is attacking Sanders is the funniest thing I've heard all day.
Keep laughing! You know perfectly well that nobody is attacking him. We're just holding him accountable for his smears and attacks and lies about the Democratic party and Democratic leadership.

You know perfectly well that the Democrats and the Democratic party is not "feeble"... and Democrats are not "corrupt"... and Democrats are not "ideologically bankrupt"... and the Democratic party is not "the party of the one-percent"... and that the Democratic party doesn't tolerate anyone making excuses for racism or dismissing racist voting patterns... and that the Democratic party is NOT "the same as the GOP".

Laugh it up! But I can assure you that correcting the record, and stating the facts, and pushing-back against the lies and smears is NOT "attacking" anyone. All I'm trying to say is that as loyal Democrats we are duty-bound to hold his feet to the fire.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
515. You know perfectly well he's not. It's pushback and holding his feet to the fire...
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:26 PM
Nov 2018
513. You know perfectly well
he's bashed constantly.
You know perfectly well he's not being bashed. At most, it's pushback, correcting the record, calling-out the lies and and holding his feet to the fire. I can personally assure you that nobody here bashes Bernie. I'd be happy to take a look at any examples you might like to provide... but aside from that it looks like we may have reached a dead-end. All I'm saying here is that we'll just have to agree to disagree, because no such thing is happening.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
265. "Our progressive allies" are not restricted to Sanders supporters
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:16 PM
Nov 2018

It's an absurdity to imagine this one guy somehow is the only one who can express progressive ideas.

There are a whole lot of new young officeholders-to-be who might actually be a lot more effective and persuasive. If we care about progressive policies, we have a lot of younger people to support, who will have decades now to shape our country.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
286. Tents don't vote. People do.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:56 PM
Nov 2018

They vote because many fought and were beaten, starved, force fed for that sacred right to have our voice heard and we will not be threatened or bullied for our freedom of choice in that voting booth.

Our door is always open.. the ones that do not wish to take part in their civic duty for the betterment of all, I find selfish and self centered and frankly to privileged to care about the people around them or our future.

sheshe2

(83,785 posts)
158. The Parkland Students won't stay home.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:55 PM
Nov 2018
And you and I both know that younger voters are immature enough to stay home if we alienate them, their candidates, and their views. I


The Parkland students also started an effective movement and galvanized young voters who came out in numbers and voting for Democrats in a primary no less. Perhaps the 'youth' you name as Bernie supporters should talk to them. You call them 'immature' perhaps they need to grow up.

NastyRiffraff

(12,448 posts)
257. Bingo!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:40 PM
Nov 2018

That's EXACTLY what's being suggested here. We've heard this tune before and now we have Trump.

Totally Tunsie

(10,885 posts)
54. If you're to be allowed the right to your opinions, then you must allow
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:52 PM
Nov 2018

all others the same privilege. You current posts on BS are very critical of someone doesn't support your thinking. Obviously, in 2016, you felt very differently about Bernie. Give the rest of us that opportunity if we so choose.

I might note that during the 2016 primary stage, I was a full-fledged Bernie supporter. When he didn't win there, I happily campaigned and voted for Hillary. The Dems now have so much great young(ish) talent, that supporting a 79-year-old presidential candidate who is not a declared Democrat will not be practical for me in 2020.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
220. None of this is a good excuse to attack progressive Democrats
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:25 PM
Nov 2018

If people want to divide our Party by looking for every little opportunity to attack Sanders and progressives then those people must really want to lose to Trump. We need to start uniting now, not one month before the election.

Docreed2003

(16,862 posts)
243. I would strongly suggest taking a deep breath and stepping back for a moment
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:13 PM
Nov 2018

A). Absolutely no one here is attacking progressives or the left within the party, and no one here is attacking Bernie. There has been some honest criticism of Bernie over his continued ham handed comments when it comes to issues like race, that is not an attack.
B). You seem to be equating all progressive thought with Bernie. That is not only overly simplistic, it's just wrong.
C). You're taking an extremely aggressive tone with folks here that is off putting and comes across intentionally belligerent. I don't think that's your intention, and you might have more support by taking a different approach.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
253. If you think no one here attacks progressives and Sanders regularly you must not be here very often
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:34 PM
Nov 2018

Docreed2003

(16,862 posts)
262. If such threads exist...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:47 PM
Nov 2018

Do us all a favor and please post them. Any thread that attacks Sanders would be hidden, as would any thread attacking progressive democrats.

But I'm sure you're correct. I'm sure there's a plethora of such threads...must miss them since I'm "not on here often"

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
69. He's already demonstrated a marked inability
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:03 PM
Nov 2018

to appeal to the majority of Democrats, and if anything his level of support has decreased since his post-primary petulance in 2016. He can run, but he’s not going to be the nominee.

The Berniebabies need to learn that they’re the minority position in the party, and that withholding their vote is a losing proposition.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
23. "United we stand, remember?" --- There's nothing unifying about...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:30 PM
Nov 2018
United we stand, remember?
There's nothing unifying about his slams and smears against the Democratic party. Why do you think this type of destructive rhetoric is "unifying"?? What is "unifying" about the lies that claim Democrats and Republicans are the same?? What good purpose does that serve?

Instead, I think it's much more important that our "allies" stop attacking and denigrating and smearing Democrats and the Democratic party. Such things only serve to create divisions, distrust and suspicions. It weakens and tarnishes the party, it makes Democrats seems less attractive when a supposed "ally" is claiming that there's no difference between the parties or that Democrats are the "party of the one-percent" or that Democrats are "corrupt" or that Democrats are "feeble" or that Democrats are "ideologically bankrupt".

I'm sorry to break it to you, but that's not the type of thing that an actual ally would say. Not one that wants to be taken seriously anyway. I think we can all agree that the bigger goal should be to make Democratic candidates, Democratic politicians, and the Democratic party the place that is the most attractive and the party that will garner loyalty and support.

I mean, seriously now... come on! Think about it! All I'm saying is this: Who is going to donate to, or support, or vote for Democrats when all they hear someone saying is that we're "no different" from Republicans, or that "Democrats are corrupt"?? That's the sort of thing that Nader and Stein say. It's indefensible and it's not helping.
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
38. Big tent in 2020. That's the core of
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:40 PM
Nov 2018

the Democratic Party. How do we win without Sanders supporters?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
47. There's nothing unifying about his slams and smears against the Democratic party.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:46 PM
Nov 2018

There's nothing unifying about his slams and smears against the Democratic party. Why do you think this type of destructive rhetoric is "unifying"?? What is "unifying" about the lies that claim Democrats and Republicans are the same?? What good purpose does that serve?

How does that grow the party. How do those types of slurs and smears and lies attract voters, volunteers, supporters?

How do we win without Sanders supporters?
It's not they think it's "his turn" or anything like that, right? They'll just have to swallow their pride and vote for the actual nominee, won't they? The party can't just give it to him by default for fear of offending his supporters.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
142. Nope. Democrats are smarter than that.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:46 PM
Nov 2018
Big tent
Nope. Democrats are smarter than that. It makes no sense to make special coddling accommodations for a mere handful of immature malcontent voters (as you say) who will have the effect of driving out and driving away and alienating many more. There's NO net benefit for the party. They can choose to come in to our big tent if they want, but nobody is going to BEG them. They'll just have to grow up and live without such flattery. The Democratic party won't be held hostage with the types "Bernie-or-Bust-2020" threats that you appear to be defending. Fact of the matter is, it's not "his turn". His supporters will just have learn to get used to disappointment.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
145. I still haven't heard what your strategy is
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:48 PM
Nov 2018

to win without progressives and all those young people I linked to in the OP?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
160. You wrongly assume that Bernie supporters are the ONLY path to victory.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:56 PM
Nov 2018
to win without progressives and all those young people I linked to in the OP?
You wrongly assume that Bernie supporters are the ONLY path to victory. And you wrongly assume that only Bernie supporters are "progressives". GMAFB!

You're talking in circles now. Repeating the same things over and over... talking points and threats that have been thoroughly debunked and refuted many times throughout this thread.

It's silly to think that the Democratic party is just going to hand Bernie the nomination because a handful of disgruntled starry-eyed "immature" supporters (your words) are going to withhold their vote because they believe it's "his turn".

The talking points you're advocating remind me a lot of something that Susan Sarandon says. (And, by the way... FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!)

Response to NurseJackie (Reply #160)

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
188. If sanders was the nominee, the party would lose the support of key demographic groups
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:35 PM
Nov 2018

sanders will not be the nominee. If sanders was the nominee, you can kiss the vote of African American women, latinos and Jews goodbye How can sanders win without the support of these groups?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
224. This is terribly divisive and defeatist.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:26 PM
Nov 2018

This is exactly the kind of division that will help Trump in 2020.

brer cat

(24,573 posts)
315. You need to take the word "real"
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:26 AM
Nov 2018

out of your user name; you are all mirage. You call gothmog "terribly divisive and defeatist" for a post based on FACTS while ignoring the divisiveness of your own blackmail OP which is based on nothing but your highly inflated vision of your own importance. Bernie may be your sun, but the real world and the Democratic Party doesn't and won't revolve around him or his supporters. Making this OP may have stroked your ego, but to the rest of us it only demonstrates your total lack of political acumen. The real base of the Democratic Party, our most loyal and reliable constituency, rejected Bernie in 2016 and will do so again if he runs in 2020. You are welcome to join our big tent and work within it, but no one is going to beg you to come in and take over.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
333. These progressive types appear to have helped DeSantis win in Florida
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:05 PM
Nov 2018

This is after sanders voters helped trump win in 2016. We are supposed to bow down to these threats and accept an unacceptable candidate just to make one small group of the base happy. I am not incline to give into such threats

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
332. Threats of boycotts by this group are also divisive
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:03 PM
Nov 2018

sanders is not acceptable to a great many real Democrats. sanders will not be the nominee for so long as a large number of real Democrats remember that sanders worked long and hard to help elect trump. If sanders runs, he will have to release his tax returns and we will see who was paid commissions for the TV ads ran in 2016. sanders will also have to agree to be a member of the party and to agree to run as a Democrat. If sanders runs, he will be grilled on the actions he took to help trump in 2016 and that grilling will be intense.

BTW, your progressive boycott may have given Florida to the GOP. It seems that sanders was correct about members of his base not wanting to vote for black candidates.




I hope that these progressive do not make the same mistake yet again

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
245. He can't win without those groups. He can't win the nomination, that's for damn sure. And...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:22 PM
Nov 2018
If sanders was the nominee, you can kiss the vote of African American women, latinos and Jews goodbye How can sanders win without the support of these groups?
He can't win without those groups. He can't win the Democratic party's nomination, that's for damn sure. And that's why I predict he'll run as an "Independent" or "Green Party" spoiler. By running as a "third-party" candidate, he won't have to comply with the rules in various states that require him to show his tax returns. And such a campaign (if it should happen) would be for revenge and sour-grapes purposes only. He can count. He's smart enough to know that he'd never win and that the end result would be to guarantee Trump gets reelected. At what price vanity, eh? --- All I'm saying is let's hope it doesn't get that far and that patriotism and common sense win-out over pride.

Totally Tunsie

(10,885 posts)
236. Per your former position on Bernie, TeamPooka would not have wanted or needed your opinion in 2016.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:55 PM
Nov 2018

Your stance at that time was not helpful to Bernie's campaign.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
30. Anyone too dumb to vote for the Democratic nominee
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:34 PM
Nov 2018

doesn’t place themself in a position to be taken seriously or have their views considered in any significant way.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
34. You are going to need me. See how that works??
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:35 PM
Nov 2018

It is actually like some are trying to extort others.

I don’t like it but go ahead with it. See how far it gets you.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
53. I don't hold my vote over people heads. If people who call themselves democrats
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:52 PM
Nov 2018

Can’t figure out that no matter fucking what they are to vote for the democrat than they can go screw.

There is no other discussion needed. Or coaxing or begging needed. They are useless extorters as far as I am concerned. And they deserve what they will bring upon us all.

I could give a shit less about their feelings. Their wants or their demands.

We need to fucking win and stop the fall into fascism. If that aint enough for them to vote against trumpass and republicans they are too fucking stupid or just damn selfish to be dealt with.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
72. Does that justify attacking them regularly?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:05 PM
Nov 2018

Would you want to be attacked because people knew you’d vote lock step either way? And do you think young voters are mature enough not to stay home after they’ve been attacked and ridiculed? See the link in my OP

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
102. Oh yes it is.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:22 PM
Nov 2018

“You need me”, so do as I say or want and don’t speak a word against me.

That is extortion. And I am fucking sick of it.

If they aren’t able or ready to just fucking vote democratic in 2020 after 4 years trumpass and republican rule, there is nothing I can do to persuade them. And I don’t give a fuck about them, ok??

How can I be any more clear?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
107. Attacking your own allies is wise how?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:25 PM
Nov 2018

asking people to unite is unwise how? Did you look at the link in my OP? You really think young voters will be attacked and alienated and then still go out and vote? Do you know what young people are like? Wisdom and reason must prevail among us.

Thekaspervote

(32,772 posts)
115. It's not the mainstream Dems that keep bringing up bernie!! It's those that support him and want
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:30 PM
Nov 2018

Him to run....and make rash statements about how they I’ll vote if.... that is the attack!

Bernie needs to address this himself!! Tell his supporters to get out and vote like your life depended on it,even when it isn’t him.

We could shut this whole thing down DU....just stop responding to the onslaught on bernie posts!! Please just scroll right on by and read something else. Put your much needed energies to something positive.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
192. We are not threatening to not vote
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:47 PM
Nov 2018

You're thinking it is some kind of club. It is not. It is a mechanism for fielding candidates and working together.

Why do people do what is against their own best interests over it? Even if you feel "attacked" or Bernie is "attacked" why sit there at home - who gets punished? You do too. Not the Republicans.

Coalitions are made in European countries where a party alone is too small. You have to work together with other people who are closer to you in positions on the issues. Bernie's supporters need to learn to be part of a coalition instead of claiming to be victims of the rest of the coalition because they feel they are somehow not taken seriously enough, attacked, marginalized, and all that. So are other parts of the coalition yet you don't see them saying they will not vote. It's nothing personal. It's that none of us entirely get all we want if we want to be part of a stable society.

You are coming from a position that sounds like you are outside the party and suggesting we could win with this group added but using that to be the only group that can do without having to compromise. There's no point. It is not in your interests. You got the Orange Disaster. How was that in your interests? How is that in any young person's interests? So they stayed home because they felt marginalized by some Democrats. Heck even if they insulted them plain out, they'd do better with the Democrats. Goodness, Donald of Orange certainly will marginalize them even more.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
173. But, happily, in this thread it's just one guy having a tantrum and EVERYONE else
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:10 PM
Nov 2018

telling him to go stuff it.

I think that's nice...

grantcart

(53,061 posts)
44. So you are making your support conditional to leverage your
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:44 PM
Nov 2018

Minority position to have greater power instead of winning an argument?

That is called extortion. No one else does it

Do you wonder why there is so much antagonism against Sanders supporters?

I stopped listening to anything you said (thank you for ignore) when you stopped making an argument for a policy or a candidate and state THAT YOU ARE THE KEY DEMOGRAPHIC FOR VICTORY.

"My way or the Highway" is not a statement for unity, it's extortion.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
48. All I'm saying is don't
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:46 PM
Nov 2018

cut off your nose to spite your face. Remember that old saying? How do we win without Sanders supporters? If we’re constantly attacking them?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
67. Can you honestly say
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:02 PM
Nov 2018

you don’t see attacks on Sanders and his supporters regularly? And I’m not talking about defensive attacks. You can’t miss them. They are constant.

boston bean

(36,221 posts)
74. I see lots of posts about him criticizing the party.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:06 PM
Nov 2018

I see posts about him when he says things that let people know once again that he doesn’t get racism. Something the actual base of the party experiences daily.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
80. I want the right
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:09 PM
Nov 2018

to criticize the party fairly if it is making some error. That’s democracy and it’s smart to grow with the times. But I still don’t see how hatefully attacking his supporters right now helps us win in 2020? Waiting for any perceived slip to pull out the knives?

LincolnRossiter

(560 posts)
46. The progressive wing of the party has a problem with perception and...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:44 PM
Nov 2018

expectations. They don’t view themselves as a minority faction of the party that deserves a place at the table and the inclusion of some (not all) of their positions in the platform. They view themselves as kingmakers who can always threaten to take their ball and go home anytime they don’t get their way. And their cult-like devotion to Bernie Sanders is itself a separate issue, but it’s equally dangerous to party unity.

You called out one thing accurately. Vulnerable as Trump is come 2020, we do run the very real risk of blowing it if we have a repeat of 2016. So when you and your progressive friends are talking about 2019 and 2020, promise to keep an open mind, be engaged, and respect the process—even if you don’t like the result. We all have ideal candidates that we’d love to see take the nomination in 2020 (I like Sherrod Brown and O’Malley) but not one single mainline Dem I know is committed to “my candidate or bust.” So don’t take that tack with Bernie.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
50. Bernie or bust was the stupidest
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:49 PM
Nov 2018

most dangerous thing idea. All you have to do is see my posts from 2016 to see that I put my money where my mouth is. I wanted Hillary more Han anything but now I am willing to vote for ANY person who gets the Democratic nomination. That’s my whole message. Unity. We don’t have the luxury of doing anything else.

LincolnRossiter

(560 posts)
59. I'll take your word for it, but there certainly millions of progressives...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:55 PM
Nov 2018

who were “Bernie or bust.” They bought and propagated the idea, which the GOP crafted, that the primaries were rigged even though Clinton received almost 4 million more votes than Bernie (55%-43%). So they stayed home. And many defected—some even to Trump.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
63. And do we want to be just like them?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:59 PM
Nov 2018

I think some of those never would have voted Hillary either way. Those that stayed home out of spite, well, I don’t ever want to lower myself to their level.

 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
64. Until he commits to proudly wear the Democratic Paty label, then he isn't a valid consideration
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:00 PM
Nov 2018

So far I see no reason to further support anything he says. Especially with the racial statements he made the other day.

I don't know who he aligns with but that statement goes against everything the Democratic Party holds dear.

I don't know who he is after that massive tell.
He is not a Democrat.

mcar

(42,334 posts)
56. Oh, is it time for the "be nice to us or we won't vote for Democrats" threats again?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:54 PM
Nov 2018

It's been a while since I've seen one of these.

stopbush

(24,396 posts)
61. "Ask not what the Democratic Party can do for you,"
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 01:57 PM
Nov 2018

“ask what you can do for the Democratic Party.”

brewens

(13,590 posts)
68. We need candidates that let people belive government can and should do good things for them.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:02 PM
Nov 2018

If we get that kind of trust again, no telling how well we can do. We better show results if we do.

I attempted to make that point with some of my friends on FB with this link. I posted that after Trump promised help to farmers hurt by his tariffs. I referred to it as farm welfare, and the recipients as welfare farmers in my post. A couple of those farmers that turn up searching our local zip codes are on my friends list too!

I simply pointed out that these people have government programs that help them that they are quite happy about. We shouldn't ever let any of them tell us we can't have our tax dollars do good things for us too.

https://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=00000&progcode=total&regionname=theUnitedStates

ismnotwasm

(41,987 posts)
75. He's not getting the nomination. There is no way.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:06 PM
Nov 2018

So what are you going to do then?

Mostly I stay out of this mess here, unless it has to do with sexism or racism, I get that you are angry—so am I, 2016–I will always be angry about.

Hillary is not running, and Bernie has no realistic pathway to the presidential nomination. I am speaking practically. I don’t need to go into the reasons.

Yes, we are going to need people like you, like me, like everyone, particularly we need to court non-voters and deliver on our social justice promises to people of color. No one’s vote should be taken for granted.

Response to realmirage (Original post)

 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
82. You are absolutely wrong on the DNC RULES
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:10 PM
Nov 2018

"And no, the DNC rules do NOT prevent Sanders from getting the nomination. That Newsweek article debunked itself with a screenshot of the rules that do NOT say you need to be a registered Democrat to get it. "

Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers and DNC member, posted a photo on Twitter Friday of the rules change at the meeting in Providence, R.I.




The Hill also wrote an article as to these DNC rules.
They didn't debunk it & Sanders does indeed have to commit to the Democratic Party.
 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
108. Yup. That thinking is straight out of the DeVine/Manafort playbook.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:25 PM
Nov 2018

Bernie can't get near the Dem Presidential ticket.

 

Bfd

(1,406 posts)
140. No you didn't. He's got some rules to comply with that he's not willing to do.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:45 PM
Nov 2018

He will never be our Dem Pres candidate.

These are the new faces of the Dem Party.
Swalwell, Schiff, Booker, Harris, Klobuchar & a few other Democrats who are more than qualified & more than proud to be a part of the Democratic Party.

We have no reason to choose Him over one of these powerhouse players. Each one of them displayed their commitment & brilliance as they took on the Republicans in the televised hearings.
In the trenches where it counts. Not in front of a mic making blunderous racially divisive statements

These are the real progressive Democrats.

Its hard to say where Sanders fits anymore, following his recent statements on racial voter issues.

You debunked nothing.

Later. Off with family for the afternoon


Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
602. LOL. No you have not
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 12:45 PM
Nov 2018

Read the rule

The new ballot access laws will force sanders to file his tax returns for five or ten years. I doubt that sanders will run. These ballot access laws will also apply is sanders tries to run as an indie

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
88. I was a delegate to the national convention and I have a very different view of bernie
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:15 PM
Nov 2018

I saw what sanders did at the convention and it was clear that sanders did not do much to help Clinton

Here is a good example. The Clinton campaign vetted her delegates who were all members of the party. To be a delegate to the national convention all delegates signed an oath to support the nominee of the party. The sanders delegates ignored that oath and tried to hurt the party. For example, there was a planned stunt by the sanders delegates to boo Congressman John Lewis. The Clinton campaign warned all of her delegates about this stunt about 30 minutes in advance. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this stunt and sanders declined. In addition a large group of sanders delegates marched onto the Texas delegation breakfast and demanded that we condemn Clinton





Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused

Many democrats do not believe that sanders really tried to help Clinton. Many democrats blame sanders for helping trump win Sanders clearly took a large number of actions that were designed to hurt the party and help trump.

I was at the convention and I know exactly how little sanders did to help defeat trump. I have a long memory and I will not forget what happened in Philadelphia

I do not think that sanders will run in 2020. He will have to release many years of full tax returns and agree to abide by the new DNC rule sanders is not the future of the party in my opinion
 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
92. You know who votes
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:18 PM
Nov 2018

More consistently and in larger numbers than young people? Black women. You know who didn’t support Bernie in 2016? BLACK. WOMEN. Black women gave us a senate seat in Alabama. Why don’t we run an amazing black woman to show them that we want their vote?

 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
105. Exactly.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:23 PM
Nov 2018

Alienating their vote is not the way when they consistently have our backs. It’s about damn time to give them their voice they so dutifully deserve. 19 African American women won judgeships in Texas this year. Time to have Kamala Harris on the ticket.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
114. I like both Senator Harris and Senator Booker
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:30 PM
Nov 2018

Senator Booker gave a great speech at the Texas Democratic fundraiser back in September. He is amazing. Senator Harris is a lawyer's lawyer. I love the way she cross examined Kavanaugh.


 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
118. Agreed!!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:33 PM
Nov 2018

I love Booker too. I worry that they’ll trap him into the “angry black man” trope because he’s so wonderfully passionate. The republicans have a good way of painting a minority candidate as a stereotype (ie Hillary was shrill). I don’t think anyone would fall for it this time though!

BumRushDaShow

(129,067 posts)
136. One was also just elected who holds all the cards for ending a political travesty
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:43 PM
Nov 2018


(Letitia James - New York state Attorney General-elect)

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
182. African American women voters are very important to the party
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:24 PM
Nov 2018

I am amused that the OP thinks that the party will chose to support a candidate that is strongly disliked by this group

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
199. And how does this answer the problem
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:08 PM
Nov 2018

of people attacking progressives and Sanders supporters? You think we can win without them? You think any candidate can win without them?

 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
203. They have...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:14 PM
Nov 2018

The midterms proved that progressives and young people will come out to vote for candidates that aren’t progressive. Very few “progressive” candidates won, which would point to the fact that most people would rather vote establishment or moderate.

My point is, why would you alienate the strongest part of your base to pander to a base that holds the party hostage and is finicky with their votes anyway? Wouldn’t you rather find a candidate that represents the strongest part of your base and work from there?

dansolo

(5,376 posts)
268. Anyone who is politically active and chooses to not vote in 2020
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:31 PM
Nov 2018

Is not truly a progressive. This selfish attitude is the opposite of being progressive, because you are in effect supporting the other side.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,234 posts)
294. I have a question. How many Sanders/OR backed candidates won their primaries, or the GE?
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 12:46 AM
Nov 2018

We all know about AOC, but how many others? I'd like to measure the electoral strength of this group of "progressives" you're so obsessed with.

elocs

(22,581 posts)
96. The reality is that we live in a 2 party system where it's either the Democrat or the Republican.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:20 PM
Nov 2018

That's it.
Is anyone on the Left sad when a Republican chooses not to vote or votes for a 3rd party candidate? Of course not.
Because we understand that person is ultimately helping the Democratic candidate.
Well Republicans celebrate when voters on the Left do the same thing because they know it helps their candidate to win.

A Democratic big tent means you cannot become entrenched in a 'my candidate or else' attitude. In the general election you support and vote for the Democratic candidate because doing otherwise only helps the Republican. This is too important for pouting and claiming if you don't get your way you're going to quit and take your ball home.

Our big tent needs to also be welcoming of those who have always considered themselves to be Democrats but who are less Liberal than we are. No more putting them down by calling them 'DINOs' or Republican Lite and really inviting them to leave.
In doing so we only hurt our party and our cause. And every Democrat elected, even a conservative one, counts towards the Democrats controlling that legislative body along with its power and agenda.

If those on the Left could have had this attitude and philosophy, Trump may well have never been elected.

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
100. I can't tell you how much more weight this would carry with one change:
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:21 PM
Nov 2018

If it said "We're" instead of "You're" that would do wonders to make me parse it as a Democrat saying something.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
148. LOL!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:49 PM
Nov 2018
It's aimed at those who are attacking progressives
LOL!
So what you're saying is that Bernie2020 supporters are the only progressives, eh?

That’s the whole point
I'm unconvinced. I think there's more to this than meets the eye.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
177. I have seen no attack on progressives on DU...and I resent the fact that Sander's supporters
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:19 PM
Nov 2018

reserve that moniker for themselves. You can be progressive and not be a Sanders fan. You should stop making unfounded, untrue accusations against DUer's

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
202. Try harder at aiming if you want to persuade somebody. Anybody.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:13 PM
Nov 2018

As an innocent bystander for much of the last few years, I'm getting tired of always taking fire from the same side. Sanders' supporters declared me his enemy long before it ever occurred to me to make it so. The thought has now occurred to me. That doesn't happen when you aim.







 

Wintryjade

(814 posts)
112. Is this a threat. If a certain group doesn't get their way, let Trump have it and keep all us in
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:29 PM
Nov 2018

this mess? A small group of potential voters holding the nation as hostage because they want their way? Are we really going to start this right after finally, just getting our head above water to breathe?

I have watched the court stack Republican. In 2016, I would speak out about the court being only one of many very important, life threatening reasons to go out and vote. And I would have people not even consider giving up their tantrum for the power of the court. Here we sit with a rw court and we will see how well that serves us.

But now, a couple days after winning one branch, we have a little power to do some things, you are saying Bernie or you do not get a segment of vote?

Why would we look upon that kind of thinking as a model of leader mentality? Why would we be encourage to support, ever support, such a manipulative grab for power? Anyone trying to gain a win thru blackmail does not have the integrity to do what this nation is in dire need of.

It is like the ten progressives that say if they do not get a new House Speaker, they will not support Pelosi and what she is pushing. Such pettiness. They are there to support ME, you, the Democratic Party to follow out on the progressive policies we liberals put out, and to help the nation, help all us, the people. They do not get to throw a tantrum and tell us they refuse to do what they were elected to do, because they did not get their way. That is exactly the behavior that will keep people out of leadership position.

Maybe I read this post wrong. I heard it enough in 2016 and was appalled. Are we really starting it again, 11/10 2018, just four days after midterms?

 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
123. This.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:35 PM
Nov 2018
A small group of potential voters holding the nation as hostage because they want their way?


If we cave to this we are no better than the right caving to the tea party and look where their party is now.
 

Wintryjade

(814 posts)
134. That is how I see it. As poorly as AOC has behaved to establishment Democrats, fighting against
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:42 PM
Nov 2018

her own party, I watched HRC embrace her and welcome her in, after AOC won. Gracious every step of the way. Supported AOC and brought her into her onward program with like nine other women, with no bitterness or ranker. Just the want to help young Democrats in the transition and have Democrats as a winner.

That is my Democratic party and that is the type of leader I admire.

HRC made me pause in my assessment of AOC and now I am much more patient with her. Lol. Thank you HRC.

 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
170. Precisely.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:09 PM
Nov 2018

Don’t get me wrong, Hillary has her flaws, but her patience and willingness to put her party above herself and embrace and support anyone that wants to run as a dem is something we all could aspire to have.

 

Wintryjade

(814 posts)
187. "Don't get me wrong, Hillary has her flaws," Why do we have to do this, before saying something good
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:34 PM
Nov 2018

about our people. I have been considering and observing this for a couple years now.

I have stopped this, is all I am saying. I am so damn tired of having to bring up HRC flaws in order to say, she has few. Then comparatively? She is a Saint. Lol. I boldly go into bragging without humbleness first.

This is why I love politics. It allows us to always be growing. The true progressive. And I have been doing it consciously for at least four decades now. My old hippy self, came home to this mama.

Woman continually have to justify their existence. Well, old women, anyway. Maybe all women. But, I do not think all people are expected to.

I digress.

I agree with you. Thank you for the exploration in thought. Always a fun one for me.

 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
193. I am a woman.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:57 PM
Nov 2018

And I didn’t mean it as a way to put her down, but I won’t sit her and 100% praise a woman who hasn’t been very woman friendly either.

I love Hillary. Grew up idolizing her but we have to hold people accountable as much as we can praise them. No person is perfect and it’s okay to point those things out.

Obama has his flaws too. Equal opportunity to grow and learn from the flaws of those we hold up on pedestals.

namahage

(1,157 posts)
382. Not very "woman-friendly"?
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:55 PM
Nov 2018

Assuming you're speaking of Hillary, how specifically has she not been "woman-friendly"?

You know, besides:

As first lady of the United States, Hillary led the U.S. delegation to the U.N. Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, where she proclaimed that “women’s rights are human rights.” She also advocated for the Family and Medical Leave Act, worked to increase funding for child care, and helped start the National Campaign to End Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy.

As senator from New York, Hillary championed access to emergency contraception and voted in favor of strengthening a woman’s right to make her own health decisions. She also championed the Paycheck Fairness Act and co-sponsored the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. She fought for legislation to guarantee paid sick leave and paid parental leave for all federal employees.

As secretary of state, Hillary made women’s rights a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
130. Did you read the article in the OP?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:40 PM
Nov 2018

Do you think it’s wise to alienate energized young progressives? Do you know how fickle alienated young voters can be on Election Day?

 

Wintryjade

(814 posts)
149. I am not concerned about Sanders. He does not have the support or vote and we are two years out.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:50 PM
Nov 2018

But I would like for people to consider how infantile these tantrums are and how unproductive they are. As adults, the parent does not cave to the tantrum. But if that were to happen, and it isn't, the youth are just that fickle to not show up to vote. Yes, I know how "fickle" a section of youth is. There is also a very solid, pragmatic youth out there fighting for our liberal and progressive cause, and voting, canvassing, supporting and speaking out for our Democratic establishment. They are educating themselves about the system, and becoming a part of it. It is a very exciting time for Democrats and a very exciting time for our young Democrats. I am excited and jazzed with what I see.

 

Demwolv

(88 posts)
168. Would be more dangerous
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:05 PM
Nov 2018

To alienate black women who did not support Bernie in 2016 and are our most consistent voting block. Young voters are going to be fickle but at the end of the day, we saw young voters come out in record numbers this year with candidates who largely weren’t as far left a Bernie.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
181. I did and think it is nonsense. Dems win because of our diverse coalition and Sander's has made
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:24 PM
Nov 2018

comment that are pretty awful the last couple days about racism. I won't vote for him in a primary and hope he doesn't run. I will of course vote for anyone in a general including Sen. Sanders although I would be surprised if he made it that far.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
143. Read the link in the OP.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:46 PM
Nov 2018

Attacking our allies regularly is wise how? Is that really the strategy? You think young people/young progressives will have their candidates and ideas shit on and then not stay home on election night? Do you know what young people are like?

 

Wintryjade

(814 posts)
159. They are not voting if they do not get their way. I am going to call that out. Seriously?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:56 PM
Nov 2018

Now it is being demanded that they will threaten not to vote if they do not get their way AND we are not allowed to call it out? So laughing. That is funny, isn't it.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
157. I think you need to re-read that link you are referring everyone to. It doesn't say
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:55 PM
Nov 2018

what you seem to be thinking it says.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
156. It all depends on your point of view. I see YOU as the one attacking our allies. And
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:53 PM
Nov 2018

you are doing it in the name of someone who cannot be our nominee in 2020. And you know that.

We both know he's not going to join the Democratic Party, and we both know he's not going to let us see what it is in those tax returns that he is so reluctant to show us.


Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
171. Times change. And had he ran last time, I don't think he wins...the GOP will demonize a
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:09 PM
Nov 2018

Democratic Socialist every bit as much as they did Hillary. And people of color are an important part of the Democratic coalition...I don't know if he could excite that important base given his recent very unfortunate comments. But the deal breaker for me in terms of the primary is that he is not a Democrat. He could have remained a Democrat after his recent election or after 16 but chose not to.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
186. The media won't give him the kid-glove treatment that he's accustomed to.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:34 PM
Nov 2018
He could have remained a Democrat after his recent election or after 16 but chose not to.
That was the most insulting thing ever. What a betrayal. No loyalty at all. Britney Spears marriage lasted longer than that.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
207. And he ran as a Democrat and then changed back to independent after the most recent Vermont
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:38 PM
Nov 2018

election.

Response to NurseJackie (Reply #186)

Bettie

(16,110 posts)
141. I agree and disagree with some of the things you've said
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:46 PM
Nov 2018

I personally think we need to move more toward the left overall. That's a point of agreement.

I think Sen. Sanders did open some avenues of discussion that were all but closed before the last election. That's a point of agreement.

We have moved to the left fairly significantly already overall as a party.

I don't think he should run for President again.

I don't think Clinton should run again either.

Both can and should use their voices (if they choose to) to help where they are needed.

We have room enough for everyone, but don't let being sad about Sanders blind you to the simple fact that we are fighting for our country in a very real way. Sitting out an election because you didn't get the candidate you wanted is foolish in normal times, at this point in history? It is insane.

Those young people? They need to vote. THEIR FUTURE is at risk. We're at a crisis point here so there is no excuse for refusing to vote for Democrats because people are mean to Sen. Sanders or aren't perfect in every way.

That said, people could stand to be less vitriolic about him, because it isn't necessary to turn any mention of him into an "I hate Bernie Sanders" thread.

We know, some people love him, some hate him. Everyone is aware by now who loves and who hates him.

He's right sometimes, he's wrong sometimes. He's human.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
196. Thank you for your wise and fair response.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:04 PM
Nov 2018

This is exactly the approach to victory in 2020 we need.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
152. I am very happy to see the trouncing your bullshit post got in this thread, realmirage.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:51 PM
Nov 2018

Glad to see no one is falling for this crap any more.

Thanks for showing me that!

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
233. And only 21 recs... compared to the "into-the-sunset" post with 192 recs...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:48 PM
Nov 2018
Glad to see no one is falling for this crap any more.
And only 21 recs... compared to the "into-the-sunset" post with 192 recs... I believe I like what I see. The pushback and debunking and unapologetic response to the threats of blackmail give me hope.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
291. I think for even some of the biggest fans, the bloom is off the rose. Thank the gods.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 09:25 PM
Nov 2018

We have bigger fish to fry.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
351. In the contrary, I must have hit a nerve
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:59 PM
Nov 2018

It seems a lot of people haven’t yet realized we need progressives. And since most of them have been driven out of here, it would be interesting to hear your master plan to win without Sanders’ massive number of voters, especially those in the link I provided in the OP.

But the ugliness in your reply reveals all anyone would need to know about you.

Squinch

(50,954 posts)
365. Clearly you did hit a nerve. It was the nerve in which people are sick to death of
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:05 PM
Nov 2018

this senseless bullshit, and feel the need to call it out when they see it. And that's a good thing.

To turn your words back to you, the ugliness and petulance and ridiculousness in your post reveals all anyone would need to know about you, but we already knew it because of your previous ugly, petulant and ridiculous posts.

And about those Sanders voters? Most of them aren't assholes. Most will vote for the Democrat who wins the Democratic primary. The way Sanders didn't.

Sad to see people who can't get over a loss.

murielm99

(30,745 posts)
379. The only progressives who have been driven out of here
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:51 PM
Nov 2018

are the AA's. I have been here a long time and miss their voices.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
470. "Into the sunset" has FOUR TIMES as many recs as this OP does...
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:55 PM
Nov 2018
Glad to see no one is falling for this crap any more.
"Into the sunset" has FOUR TIMES as many recs as this OP does. That's a striking difference that reveals a lot! Indeed, the bloom is off the rose. Clearly so. There can be no doubt about that.

 

LBM20

(1,580 posts)
153. I like Sanders, but too old. Same with Biden. Let's get someone younger. I really like Steve
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 02:51 PM
Nov 2018

Bulloch of Montana.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
197. A young progressive would be awesome.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:06 PM
Nov 2018

Don’t know much about the one you mentioned. I’ll have to look him up

Hekate

(90,712 posts)
411. Kamala Harris, Joaquin Castro, Cory Booker, Beto O'Rourke, Eric Swallwell, Adam Schiff
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 09:57 PM
Nov 2018

All Democrats. All young. All qualified.

Did I mention they are Democrats? They are.

Demsrule86

(68,582 posts)
166. How many threats (take ball and go home" are going to have to endure before 20 I wonder...trash
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:02 PM
Nov 2018

Sander's name so I don't have to read them...no interest in a run by him...if he made it to the general,we would lose...can't carry the Democratic coalition in my opinion...sure I would vote for him, but many might not. FYI...my millennials (three) dislike Sen. Sanders and feel he has some blame for our 16 loss. They won't vote for him in a primary.

MontanaMama

(23,319 posts)
167. We know that disgruntled Sanders supporters
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:04 PM
Nov 2018

voted for Trump in 2016 because their undies were in a bunch after the primary. They fucked this country because they were proving some kind of lame point. Bernie will not be and should not be our nominee in 2020. We have an embarrassment of riches in actual Democratic candidates to choose from. Can Bernie have a seat at the platform development table? Yes. Does he have much to contribute to the conversation? Absolutely. But, he’s not a Democrat and should not be our nominee.

 

Wintryjade

(814 posts)
198. Interesting numbers I had not seen it. We knew of course Especially with open/caucuses.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 04:07 PM
Nov 2018

Good stuff. Thanks.

violetpastille

(1,483 posts)
190. Or maybe those Sanders voters voted for Trump because they wanted Trump
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:43 PM
Nov 2018

In the Portland area ca. 2016 it was certainly not safe to assume that youngish and tattoos and Bernie = Democrat.

MontanaMama

(23,319 posts)
249. I didn't know that.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:28 PM
Nov 2018

I live in the inland northwest and in a college town...lots of the students supported Bernie in the primary. I wonder how many of those did vote for tRump or didn’t vote at all because their guy didn’t win. I am not understanding this Bernie loyalty pledge that’s being asked of us at this time....that somehow he is owed something.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
247. I'd love to hear your strategy for how we win without
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:26 PM
Nov 2018

progressives and Sanders massive number of supporters? Attacking them constantly? That's the strategy? And until someone shows me their crystal ball that proves otherwise, reality and history show that Sanders is the strongest candidate for the nomination considering the amount of support he got last time. That's reality.

MontanaMama

(23,319 posts)
258. Reality is that Bernie is not a Democrat.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:41 PM
Nov 2018

Reality is that it is very disappointing when your candidate doesn’t win and it is wrong to stay home and refuse to vote because you’re mad. Reality is that voting for a malignant narcissist that has damaged this country beyond belief because you’re guy didn’t win is selfish and immature.

My plan is to vote for the Democratic nominee for president in 2020 whomever that may be. If Bernie supporters can’t see clear to do the same then they’re as good as red hats and they don’t belong on DU.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
261. All I'm saying is I think it would be wise for us to unite now rather than
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:43 PM
Nov 2018

one month before the election. I don't see why that's controversial at all. And I agree that anyone who stayed home last time because of butthurt is a traitor and I think they see now what a terrible mistake that was. I was not one of those.

MontanaMama

(23,319 posts)
267. Every single thread
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:27 PM
Nov 2018

about Bernie goes off the rails on DU. For that very reason it seems unlikely that we will all join hands and unite in full and total support for Bernie Sanders.

emulatorloo

(44,131 posts)
176. Strawman. Valid criticism about his dumb statements on race isn't "attacking progressives"
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:17 PM
Nov 2018

or young voters or progressivism. Bernie is but one politician, he’s not the only progressive out there.

BTW, I always support who I want in the primary, and then GOTV for the eventual nominee. It isn’t rocket science.

Rizen

(708 posts)
178. We need all the support we can get
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:21 PM
Nov 2018

hopefully Sanders supporters will all support the Democrat who wins the primary.

calimary

(81,304 posts)
179. And you're definitely going to need the Democratic Party.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:21 PM
Nov 2018

That’s the only ticket that can win, if voters want to be realistic and practical in 2020. Splintering off does no good at all - for any of us, ESPECIALLY our more progressive brothers and sisters. It may not be utter perfection, but the Dems will still get them a LOT closer to their objectives than that other team will.

redstatebluegirl

(12,265 posts)
185. I am so sick of this "support Bernie or I'll take my toys and go home" crap.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:34 PM
Nov 2018

Nobody gets everything they want, ever, but on a bad day the democratic party does more for America than the republicans do. They offer much more to young people, middle income people, old people virtually everyone. Even the rich do better under Democrats because the middle class has money to spend with their businesses.

The Bernie or bust faction that tried to drag the party so far to the left that we could not win make me nuts. How they behaved at the National Convention was disgraceful. Now they are trying to divide our proud party that just won a huge election.

If that is how you feel take your toys and go home and find out what it is like to have a fascist government including a supreme court that will last for 40 years.

Sanders could never have made it through the vetting the comes with a full blown national campaign, not primaries. They would have chewed him up and spit him out. Plus he will never show his tax returns because his followers might not like what they see.

We do have a big tent but we don't need people who want to burn it to the ground.

GitRDun

(1,846 posts)
189. I absolutely DESPISE these Sanders fights
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 03:38 PM
Nov 2018

The Sanders folks are way too militant... fail to recognize material weaknesses in his candidacy.

Others seem hell bent on marginalizing his supporters by continually telling him to ride off in to the sunset.

This circular firing squad crap can mean election night defeat.

Knock it the hell off.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
337. You want us to unite by accepting a candidate who is not acceptable to the base
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:19 PM
Nov 2018

Do you agree with your fellow sanders supporters and JPR types that Congressman John Lewis deserved to be booed at the National Convention and the sanders was correct in not taking any steps to block this stunt? https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/

obamanut2012

(26,080 posts)
210. I look every day for your OPs -- thanks for posting!
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:00 PM
Nov 2018

In these stressful times, a good lulz a day keeps the grey hairs away.

Hekate

(90,712 posts)
211. Why do I feel like DU is getting a wedgie with all these posts? Asking for a friend, doncha know.nt
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:05 PM
Nov 2018

Andy823

(11,495 posts)
226. That time of the season
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:29 PM
Nov 2018

More and more "divide and conquer" tactics are going to be used to cause divisions on DU. It isn't going to get any better, probably a lot worse, but you know the old saying "trolls got troll"!

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
223. Is that some sort of threat? Really?
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:26 PM
Nov 2018

Vote your conscience, with an eye on outcomes. If your favorite doesn't prevail and become the nominee, get over it and vote for the better of the two candidates who can win.

Or don't. But don't threaten us. That's just silly.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
225. Asking people to stop attacking progressive
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:28 PM
Nov 2018

Democrats because we need them is not a threat. It’s common sense.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
227. Who is doing that? Most of us have a preference
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:32 PM
Nov 2018

for one or another candidate for President. Personally, I do not, yet. I am waiting to see who rises to the top.

There is one thing I can tell you, though, absolutely. In November of 2020, if I am still alive, I will vote for the Democratic nominee, just as I have done every election since 1968. If my favorite does not win during the primaries, I will vote for and work for the election of our party's nominee, who ever it is.

I will threaten nobody. I will attack nobody. I will support my favorite in the primaries and vote for the nominee. I am a Democrat.

I saw your 2016 attack on Bernie Sanders in this thread. I was not a supporter, but I never attacked him, nor said I would not vote for him if he became the nominee. I would not do that.

Here's my advice: Get over yourself.

MrsCoffee

(5,803 posts)
246. Asking people to stop attacking Democrats and the Democratic Party is common sense period.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:24 PM
Nov 2018

Why doesn't Bernie or his supporters get that? For some reason, when Bernie does it, he is the most beloved politician on the face of the planet.

For all your big tent talk you sure seem to want to push anyone out who doesn't conform to your idea of progressive.

Sorry charlie. That's not how the Democratic Party works.

And no one here is trashing progressive Democrats. Bernie is not being "bashed" and he is not a Democrat. His feet are being held to the fire this time. He will be vetted if he decides to run again. Deal with it.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
254. Inviting "progressives" into our Big Tent, rather taking the tent to them...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:35 PM
Nov 2018

Inviting "progressives" into our Big Tent, rather taking the tent to them on the other side of the road is not "attacking progressives." It's common sense.

The Democratic party is under no obligation to accommodate a handful of youthful "progressive" voters (who may, or may-not vote). Why move the tent and risk losing MORE than we could gain? Better to stay put and let them come to us. It's common sense.

Telling "progressives" to take a hike whenever they threaten to blackmail the party by withholding their vote is not an attack. It's common sense.

These Sarandonesque tactics are little more than having a temper tantrum. And... by the way... let me just say: FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
228. Before I trash this thread,
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 05:34 PM
Nov 2018

just wanted to say, I supported Bernie in the primary and Hillary for the general. I think we need a presidential candidate under the age of 60. It would be wonderful if Bernie would campaign for another candidate. imo

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
263. Left wing populism can be as toxic as right wing populism. They both need a boogeyman.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 06:54 PM
Nov 2018

The beauty of liberalism is there is only an us and not a we and them.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
281. Precisely correct. Populism is toxic.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:44 PM
Nov 2018

And toxic in both its right-wing and left-wing variants.

Populism is dependent on creating scapegoats and boogeymen to blame for all "the people's" problems and in fomenting anger and fear.

Whipping up anger is the stuff of demagogues. Anger and rage drives out rationality.

Liberalism is dependent on embracing rationality and reason.

Populism and liberalism are not compatable.

nini

(16,672 posts)
264. All this UNITED talk Bernie people say only applies to others listening to them
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:01 PM
Nov 2018

Odd they don't seem to think they have to do the same . What really burns my ass is they act like they invented these progressive ideas and ways. yea... right. I am very far left but I am also pragmatic and know thing won't swing 180 degrees in one election. It sucks, but it's reality.

There are so many things at play right to save our republic it's scary. The fact many 'progressives' think they have to have their butts kissed to do the right thing makes me want to spit bullets. They enjoy the drama and self righteousness too much I guess. I don't.. I want my country to return to some kind of democracy and respect. I want my grandson to grow up without fear.

LincolnRossiter

(560 posts)
275. Co-sign, brother.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 07:54 PM
Nov 2018

Bernie is pretty far left of me, but that's not my problem with him or his movement. There's room in the Democratic party for disagreement and compromise. And, ironically, as I've become more and more financially successful, I've been moving left on economic issues for years (was always pretty liberal on social issues) so I'll probably continue evolving in that direction. As you said, however, it's vital that we all recognize that in a 50/50 country that's essentially centre-right, we can't bulldoze every idea that we like through in one cycle. We have to persuade, cajole, argue, move the needle, and fundamentally beat back this idea that government can do no good--which Reagan and his acolytes have successfully inculcated a whole generation of people.

If Bernie and his people honestly choose "my way or the highway" in the face of literal White Nationalism and fascism, we need to start looking for a replacement bloc of voters. These suburban Republican women are looking pretty promising this cycle.

lapucelle

(18,268 posts)
279. ...
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:26 PM
Nov 2018
"It will be beyond sad if we go limping into the general election in 2020 because we can’t tell friend from foe."

In some cases it's not difficult at all to tell friend from foe.

 

wasupaloopa

(4,516 posts)
285. Why do people on this board think we decide
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 08:56 PM
Nov 2018

who is in the Dem party and who isn’t?

We can register as a Democrat or not. So can every other voting age citizen. We have nothing to say or do about it.

stranger81

(2,345 posts)
292. I appreciate your efforts here, but this audience is incapable of listening.
Sat Nov 10, 2018, 10:10 PM
Nov 2018

For six months before the 2016 general election, the only thing our most vociferous DUers had to say to Bernie supporters was "fuck you - we don't need your votes to win."

Those same people spent the next two years after the election blaming the people they said they didnt need for their loss.

Now, we're back to "fuck you, we don't need your votes to win."

Bottom line is that the group of posters who now dominate this board simply won't stop flinging poo at others until the "big tent" of the Democratic Party is reduced to spanning that vast ideological space between Heidi Heitkamp and Joe Manchin.

Tarheel_Dem

(31,234 posts)
296. If you bothered to read post #20, you'd find that the o.p. was one of those "fuck you(s)" in 2016.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 02:49 AM
Nov 2018

Whether he/she's actually had a change of heart, or was just simply bored, I'm not convinced the post was meant to "unite".

nini

(16,672 posts)
298. Dems really don't need outsiders who think they get to set the rules
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 03:39 AM
Nov 2018

The voters in question are a waste of time if the reality of what we're up against isn't as important as getting their way. We don't have time for the drama.

nini

(16,672 posts)
324. The ones I'm talking about aren't reachable
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 10:23 AM
Nov 2018

It's the same old song and dance every election cycle. We waste way too much effort on them when they will end up with the likes of Stein anyway.

If those voters want to achieve anything they will see the democrats are the party to get it done. This notion that democrats aren't pure enough for them is bull. They like drama and attention. They're not going to change.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
300. Maybe I have too much faith in people
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:11 AM
Nov 2018

We will learn, the hard way if we have to, that without unity we’re all fucked

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
305. Oh, yeah, right. That's why so much of Bernie's platform became the official Democratic platform.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:34 AM
Nov 2018

Because the party is incapable of listening.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
309. Someone said this "audience" is incapable of listening. I presume s/he was referring to DU,
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:57 AM
Nov 2018

which is full of members of the Democratic party and others who are capable of listening.

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
313. This is a board for Democrats
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:16 AM
Nov 2018

As you know.

Seems like the use of a word like 'others' is meant to convey something. There's an insinuation there.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
314. I am being inclusive. Some people who belong to no particular party share progressive goals
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:24 AM
Nov 2018

and understand the importance of electing more Democrats.

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
297. The base of the party in my state is African Americans.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 03:24 AM
Nov 2018

I trust their judgment on Bernie

Might want to study up on the history of progressives selling African Americans out. Start with Woodrow Wilson. Go to Huey Long. Then read why Social Security originality omitted most black folks.

Leftist who defend people voting against blacks because of their color, been there done that. Not going back.

We will not be extorted for your vote. If you can’t vote democratic because we are not pure enough for you then go vote for trump. Because that is the way I read your OP threat.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
302. Well with trump you'll certainly get nothing
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:14 AM
Nov 2018

So alienating progressives is a really bad idea. Dems can’t win without them

GulfCoast66

(11,949 posts)
323. Since almost all 'progressives', however you define that word,
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 10:17 AM
Nov 2018

Are members of the Democratic Party, spare me the hyperbole about them not voting for us.

You are pretty much talking about the green types and the JPR nuts. We are better off without them.

Take your empty threats somewhere else.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
571. I guess you didn't read the op at all?
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:50 PM
Nov 2018

It had a link in it about young voters. Do you know what young voters are like? You think attacking allies regularly is smart? You think young people won’t stay hone if people attack their them, their candidates, their ideas?

You think attacking progressives in ge real is smart?

JHan

(10,173 posts)
316. Right, and we're having this conversation because some folks have decided an indefensible comment..
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:29 AM
Nov 2018

showing a stunning ignorance about racism, should not be critiqued and they continue to make excuses for it... In other words, He should never be criticized else they'll pack up their ball and go home. It's really no different to the recalcitrant shit we saw in 2016, just a new flavor.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
303. And YOU are going to need Hillary supporters. They're no more thrilled with Bernie
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:32 AM
Nov 2018

than Bernie supporters are with Hillary. And there were 4 million more Hillary supporters.

There's no reason young people can't get excited by a new candidate -- not Bernie or Hillary. Look how they reacted to the runs of O'Rourke, Gillum, and Abrams.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
306. Agreed. You made the same point I did.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:34 AM
Nov 2018

We all need to unite. Now. Not one month before the election when all the damage is done.

JNelson6563

(28,151 posts)
304. Maybe he should become a Democrat?
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:33 AM
Nov 2018

There's lots of Progressives in the party, we don't need to do Bernie worship to be progressive. And that "enormous" base of support? Yes, it's never been that and has shrunk greatly since the primary of 2016. He's earned that animosity. Posts like this don't help his case.

Besides, this is Democratic underground, where we support Democrats.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
307. Posts like this, you mean posts explaining we need
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:36 AM
Nov 2018

to be united and stop attacking each other? I’m not sure how dividing ourselves is at all a smart strategy.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
339. You do know that the DNC rules have been changed
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:24 PM
Nov 2018

sanders can no longer pull his silly stunt of running for the nomination without formerly joining the party and agreeing to run as a Democrat


 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
350. Sanders could go a long way to uniting us....
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:52 PM
Nov 2018

... by actually uniting with us.

He won't do that. He doesn't want to. He's made that abundantly clear.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

And if your loyalty is to a specific man, instead of his principals, then I'm not sure how reliable you'd ever be any way. There are los of progressives in the Democratic party. We don't need a curmudgeonly gadfly who constantly pokes us in the eye. But he's welcome if he ever decides he wants to commit , instead of standing over there telling us all the ways we are wrong.

bobGandolf

(871 posts)
310. The Progressives are a vital part of the Democratic Party
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 05:01 AM
Nov 2018

Bernie Sanders is also a vital part. The key in my mind is COMPROMISE within the Dem. Party. Progressives and conservative Democrats have hurt the party with their all our way mentality. That needs to stop, or 2020 will see us go down in defeat.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
335. Yes, we are being threathened
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 04:11 PM
Nov 2018

If we do not nominate a candidate who is totally unacceptable to the base of the party, then this group will be happy to work to re-elect trump. This element of the base is the reason why trump won in 2016 and may be the reason why Gillium lost Florida in 2018



The sad premise of the OP is that we have to given into blackmail or risk re-electing trump.

bobGandolf

(871 posts)
604. I define Radical Progressives as, ...
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 03:04 AM
Nov 2018

...any Democrat unwilling to compromise within their own party, leading to a loss to Republicans. Having a mindset so stubborn when negotiating with other Dems. that the opposition ends up winning has no place in our party.

Building blocks of victories into wins over time beats losing quickly. Progressive, and more conservative, Democrats need to remember that.

JustAnotherGen

(31,828 posts)
319. I can't really think about it yet
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:40 AM
Nov 2018

We have a House Majority come January 3rd and we have to get out of our OWN WAY for the next 7 to 8 months.

That puts me past the NJ Primaries for the elections in November next year. Undoing the Gerry Mandered NJ is critical - so my Assembly and State Senate elections are mission critical.

We also need to see what happens in Florida. If Gillum is victorious - and we get their electoral votes for the Popular Vote Movement (we only need 98 more votes) . . .

The map to the Presidency changes dramatically. We could also be looking at a true multi party system for Presidential Politics.

Wait - no need to do anything but celebrate the ass whooping the GOP got in 2018.

JustAnotherGen

(31,828 posts)
320. PS I haven't been around
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:00 AM
Nov 2018

Due to GOTV and support of Democratic Party Campaigns . . .

Don't be blinded by people's job titles or business world experience.

Our Governor made his money at Goldman Sachs.

You couldn't find a more progressive liberal than the Bankster Corporate Plutocrat Oligarch - than Phil Murphy in Trenton.We

I hope the people of Florida and Georgia get to have someone like Phil too.

AkFemDem

(1,826 posts)
326. No, you're going to need people like me...
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 10:39 AM
Nov 2018

Women and people of color don't want another old white man at the top of the ticket. Sanders is an important voice in our democracy and I hope he continues to work to seat progressive candidates. But no, he will not be the nominee in 2020 and no he won't win as such.

still_one

(92,216 posts)
359. Whether one likes it or not because of what happened, Bernie and Hillary are divisionary to some
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 06:45 PM
Nov 2018

people, and that isn’t going to change, but is the reason why the Democratic Party needs to choose a new face

Hillary made it clear she has no intention to run again. Sanders on the other hand has not, but the fact remains to f he decides to run he won’t get the nomination for the divisionary nature he brings

As for the OPs implied “Democrats better give us a reason to vote or else”, that immature crap was played by some in 2016, and yes, those who had that mindset contributed to what we have today.

Thanks to that we lost 3 SC no minations, so the bullshit that the Democrats didn’t give THOSE a reason to vote Democratic is bullshit. If nothing no else the SC was reason enough

No Sanders, no Hillary in 2020, and no all or nothing bullshit.







Hekate

(90,712 posts)
474. Except sadly contentious; we need humor. Until then I'm happy to continue listing actual Democrats
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 03:19 PM
Nov 2018

As long as certain DUers insist that catering to one elderly Independent and his core believers is the only path to success for the Democratic Party, I think it is important to remind people that in fact we have dozens of Democratic Senators and Congresspeople working hard for us and speaking out every day.

MoonRiver

(36,926 posts)
383. Are you saying we need to vote for Sanders in the primary,
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:00 PM
Nov 2018

or you (Sanders' supporters) won't vote for the Democratic candidate in the General? Sanders definitely won't win the primary. That's a pipe dream.

namahage

(1,157 posts)
389. Glad you've figured out that you're better off trying to expand the tent...
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 08:36 PM
Nov 2018

...rather than your previous attempt to tell people not happy with Bernie to GTFO of DU should he win the primary.

Hekate

(90,712 posts)
415. I think he's just the Energizer Bunny of wedge issues. I can name a dozen great Dems ...
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 10:11 PM
Nov 2018

...off the top of my head -- all of them young, diverse, well qualified, and actual members of the Party. Women, men, Latino, white, black, Asian, veteran, disabled...

But the OP can think of only one: an elderly white male with a one-size-fits-all plan, who yells a lot, and is not a Democrat..

Really odd.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
424. Sanders and progressives in general
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 01:48 AM
Nov 2018

get attacked regularly. That’s a fact. That’s the point. Next.

betsuni

(25,537 posts)
437. So holding feet to the fire and earning votes is bad now?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:46 AM
Nov 2018

Discussing what a politician says and does helps them improve their campaign and policies for the next election, especially when a candidate may be seen as flawed or not transparent or unlikeable or not trusted or not caring about a certain section of the population, that sort of thing. Voters have to be given a reason for their vote. Words are the action of politics. Optics are important. I learned these things right here on DU! Surely Sanders and his supporters appreciate the constructive criticism if he runs again.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
458. Well, you'd THINK that would be the case, wouldn't you?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:18 PM
Nov 2018
Surely Sanders and his supporters appreciate the constructive criticism if he runs again.
Well, you'd THINK that would be the case, wouldn't you? But sadly, it would be a mistaken notion because all other evidence suggests and indicates a level of hypocrisy that has been heretofore reached or explored. The "feet to fire" characterization has been used countless times to justify the outright lies and attacks and smears on the Democratic party and Democratic leaders. How revealing it is that when legitimate criticism is put forth for just one politician, suddenly it's a bad thing. Very interesting. Very revealing.
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
574. So if I attacked Hillary and her supporters
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:26 PM
Nov 2018

regularly that would just be “holding her feet to the fire” too?

See how this works?

Unity or failure.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
457. No they don't...
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:11 PM
Nov 2018
Sanders and progressives in general
get attacked regularly.
No they don't.

That’s a fact.
No it's not.

That’s the point.
Uh-huh. Sure it is.

Afromania

(2,768 posts)
414. I've said this before and I'll say it again.
Sun Nov 11, 2018, 10:06 PM
Nov 2018

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:44 AM - Edit history (2)

Under no circumstances should anybody look at the political landscape in this country and think that anything other than voting for a Democrat is the choice at this point. It doesn't matter who the fuck wins from the non insane side of things, that is who anybody with a semblance of sanity needs to be voting for.

No RATIONAL adult should need to be convinced that voting for almost any Republican isn't an exercise in insanity at this point. Similarly it's insane to go tipping windmills for 3rd party candidates to make a point while things are clearly sliding towards the abyss. We vote the way we vote in the primary and when x candidate loses we need to put support behind the winner, that's it.

You're talking about a "big tent" while simultaneously making veiled threats. Why do you, or any other, left leaning voter need convincing or hand holding to cast a vote for the left candidate? Is the alternative of continued republican rule that benign that it can be chanced again?

Being a Bernie backer should not put you into some rarefied air that requires capitulation from the Democratic party in order to garner your vote for the non insane candidate. I backed Bernie initially for all the reasons other Bernie backers did. He lost and then refused to gracefully do as you are suggesting. Bernie had to be dragged off the stage kicking and screaming and far too many of his supporters did similarly.

His supporters had a chance to defeat the cancerous movement threatening Democracy in 2016. Some of us made the right choice and immediately backed Hillary while others decided to make the wrong one, and we have 2 more years left due on that bill.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
428. You were on the mark until
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:04 AM
Nov 2018

the “veiled threats” remark. It’s not a threat, but merely common sense to state that attacking people that you want to vote for Democrats is not very smart.

And the link in the OP is about young voters. Anyone who knows young voters knows that you can’t attack them and their causes and their candidates and then expect them to all rush out and vote for your candidate. In the real world, people do let their feelings get the better of them. We have to be aware of reality and unify now.

That shouldn’t be controversial or difficult to understand.

Afromania

(2,768 posts)
438. What's being attacked, if anything, is the myopic focus some Bernie backers have for him.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:12 AM
Nov 2018

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:32 AM - Edit history (2)

Sanders attitude and actions following his loss caused this schism. When he didn't step back when he should have it pushed the Democratic primary into overtime instead of reunifying the party. Instead he acted like a spoiled baby and enough of his followers went along with the narrative.

If he won the Democratic primary it is highly likely Democratic voters would have supported him fully without the dissension. Being the professional she is - Hillary would have immediately shut it down and supported him.

I'd like to know why you don't think "you need voters like me" isn't a veiled threat when the precedent has already been set for some Bernie voters to not vote for, what was clearly, the only sane choice? Or shit, even worse to vote for a man that is beyond insane. What kind of mature adult worth a damn would go from Bernie to trump? Is that somebody you really think anybody should be counting on for any sort of consistent support?

All I'm hearing is "be nice to us or we won't do the right thing". The stability of the country is hanging in the balance, perhaps the entire world, and here we are already starting up with the Bernie nonsense again. His supporters are acting if a vote for anything but the winner of the Democratic primary is anything but a real world vote for the republicans.

Stonepounder

(4,033 posts)
429. From the FWIW Dept (For What Its Worth)
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:04 AM
Nov 2018

Two years ago, in the Primaries I was proud to cast my vote for Bernie Sanders. However, he didn't become the candidate, Hillary did. And I worked my butt off to get Hillary elected, even though I pretty much figured that KY wouldn't go her way. But I worked for her as hard as I could. That's the whole idea of a primary. The members of the party get to decide. And just because their favorite doesn't win the primary doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean that they just throw up their hands and go vote for the other party. (Unless you nominate someone like the Orange Shipgibbon currently squatting in the White House!)

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
433. If only everyone could put aside their
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 02:08 AM
Nov 2018

precious feelings and unify now. Or we can tear each other apart and lose. Strange that a lot of people seem to be leaning toward the latter.

Not a good omen.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
461. That's not how it works. The first thing that needs to happen...
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:28 PM
Nov 2018
If only everyone could put aside their
precious feelings and unify now.
That's not how it works. The first thing that needs to happen is that the smears and attacks and lies about the Democratic party must come to an end. The smears about Democrats must stop. Giving vague "cover" to and making excuses for obvious racism must stop.

Or we can tear each other apart and lose.
We? Oh, please! What's this "we" nonsense?? No... these attacks on our great Democratic party originate from a single source. There's no "we" about it. Just one source.

Not a good omen.
I guess it depends on what one's motivations and goals are. In that regard, I think the bloom is off the rose and the vast majority of loyal Democrats are smart enough to see these attacks and smears for what they actually are. Loyal and patriotic Democrats no longer fear calling them out, refuting them, pushing-back, and labeling them.

Smart, mature and rational Democrats live in the REAL WORLD... not Opposite World. That's a good omen!

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
464. I don't respond to angry, bitter posts.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 12:55 PM
Nov 2018

If you have a more constructive point to make that doesn’t try to smear progressives I’ll gladly respond.

Have a good day!

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
465. Clearly I've touched a VERY sensitive nerve.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 01:01 PM
Nov 2018
464. I don't respond to angry, bitter posts.


If you have a more constructive point to make that doesn’t try to smear progressives
Clearly I've touched a VERY sensitive nerve. My post does not "smear progressives".

I’ll gladly respond.
Uh... you just DID! I've presented nothing but factual information and rather than trying to explain or refute my post, I'm instead having to read name-calling and insults. When that's all one has to offer, then one has run out of arguments and is fighting their battle from a very weak and disadvantageous position.

Have a good day!
Yes, I shall. I shall indeed.


Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
487. This is from the OP who is threatening to help re-elect trump?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:03 PM
Nov 2018

If the Democratic party does not nominate a candidate who is clearly unacceptable to the vast majority of the party, then a small segment that supports this candidate will work to re-elect trump. These are the same voters who helped elect trump in 2016 and now want four more years of trump unless they get their way.

Threats will not work with the party.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
512. These types of threats are very Sarandonesque, aren't they?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:19 PM
Nov 2018
Threats will not work with the party.
These types of threats are very Sarandonesque, aren't they? Her similar disappointment led her to Jill Stein. Her sole motivation was punish Democrats and the party (and the entire nation, for that matter.) She tried to justify it then, and the justification attempts still continue to this day... and what Sarandon said (and continues to say) sounds SO MUCH like the message contained in the original post. I do not believe that this is a coincidence. And Susan Sarandon can go jump in a lake. FUCK HER! FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!!

And that's all I had to say! Have a nice day, Gothmog!

Response to realmirage (Original post)

Sunsky

(1,737 posts)
441. Been there, done that and he lost.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 08:00 AM
Nov 2018

Voters said no. Before you can win the Presidency, you need to win the primaries. Sanders was given that chance and was rejected. Hillary won more states and more pledged delegates that Sanders. But that's the past. How about we give other people a chance in 2020? We can unite around other candidates.
If Sanders means the country good, he'll throw his support behind Democratic candidates. It's not about him or his cherry picked candidates, it's about getting Democrats elected for the good of this country. If he or his supporters cannot see that, then they have learnt nothing from 2016 and Putin/Trump should send them thanks.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
508. No one but you mentioned the primaries.
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 06:46 PM
Nov 2018

The only focus is on 2020. Attacking progressive allies is a recipe for failure. Sanders has many supporters. Many. There are A LOT of progressives. We need them. That's the point. That should be basic common sense to any person.

Sunsky

(1,737 posts)
530. Re-read your post
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 08:48 PM
Nov 2018
No one but you mentioned the primaries

There are numerous replies that mentioned the primaries.

In case you didn't get the point- 2020 should not be 2016 redo. Sanders had his chance then and didn't even make it through the primaries. Time to give others a chance.

We need them

And they need the rest of us.

It seems like you're saying that if we say no to Sanders, his supporters will not vote for whichever Democrat is our nominee.
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
575. I'm not sure why it's difficult to understand
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:29 PM
Nov 2018

that attacking progressive allies is really stupid and will only help trump. Not attacking your allies seems like one of those things that’s so obvious that if it needs to be explained, well...

Sunsky

(1,737 posts)
578. My allies vote for Democrats
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 02:45 PM
Nov 2018

My allies don't sulk, whine and destroy the party if their cheery-picked candidates aren't successful. I know many progressives who will vote and did vote for the Democratic party's candidates, even those who weren't their first choice. Those are allies. I consider myself a Democrat and I have voted for: progressives, centrist etc (whatever label is affixed to the Democratic candidate).

I am definitely not attacking allies. Allies don't hold their votes as ransom and ignore the very present danger we're in. Time for unity and for an end this "us vs them" bs mentality. We are a part of the same team.

Response to realmirage (Original post)

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
450. LOL, the election results clearly show that it is actually *you*
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:25 AM
Nov 2018

who need people like me.

These opposite world campaigns are getting really old.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
476. It's "we"
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 03:46 PM
Nov 2018

The people who want to attack the other people in our big tent must really think that we can win by dividing ourselves. That doesn't seem logical but apparently a lot of people seem to think it is.

R B Garr

(16,954 posts)
500. Your OP title speaks for itself. You are dividing
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 06:04 PM
Nov 2018

“people like me”. It’s right there in the title. That’s an admission right there that there are double standards.

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
453. There's never a bad time for a little Monty Python! :-D
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:54 AM
Nov 2018

Seems like there's a scene or a skit for every occasion!

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
511. Please explain how unity is achieved when someone claims the Democratic party is "corrupt".
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:00 PM
Nov 2018
So true!! Should be so simple to see... divided we fall.
Please explain how unity is achieved when someone claims the Democratic party is "corrupt". Is it unifying for someone to proclaim that Democrats are "feeble" or that the Democratic party is "ideologically bankrupt"? How exactly does it help to promote unity when someone claims that there's no difference between Democrats and Republicans, or that the Democratic party is "the party of the one-percent?" Who exactly is supposed to be drawn to the Democratic party when someone claims that people who feel "uncomfortable" voting for a black candidate aren't actually racist?

I certainly agree with you. Unity is important. So is trust. How do the things I mentioned above contribute to any of those important things? How does DEFENDING those lies accomplish anything other than create division and distrust?

All I'm trying to say here is that pushing BACK against the lies isn't what's divisive... it's the lies themselves (and of course, defending the lies or making excuses for those who tell lies... that's divisive too.)

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
488. The OP is wrong about the new DNC rule
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:03 PM
Nov 2018

The quid pro quo for the change in the super delegate rule is a rule that will require candidates to be real members of the party. See https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/08/dnc-rule-change-sanders-supporters-634998

According to the draft rule change adopted Friday, “At the time a presidential candidate announces their candidacy publicly, they must publicly affirm that they are a Democrat.”

The draft goes on to require that any candidate pursuing the Democratic Party’s nomination for president confirm in writing to the Democratic National Committee chairman that they are a member of the Democratic Party, will accept the Democratic nomination and will “run and serve as a member of the Democratic Party.”

The Rules and Bylaws Committee, meeting in Providence, R.I., made no final determination on superdelegates. DNC Chairman Tom Perez has proposed prohibiting superdelegates from voting on the first presidential nominating ballot at the national convention. Rules committee members also discussed a modified version of that proposal, in which superdelegates would be allowed to vote on the first ballot if a candidate had already earned enough pledged delegates from state primaries and caucuses to win the nomination.

This rule is in effect the quid pro quo for the change in the super delegate rule
Sources familiar with the discussion said officials believed the rule change could help garner support for a separate bid to reduce the influence of superdelegates in the party’s presidential nomination process — a priority of Sanders’ supporters after the 2016 election. Both proposals are scheduled to be considered by the full DNC in August
 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
491. You keep saying that but you haven't provided
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:14 PM
Nov 2018

any evidence that runs contrary to the actual screenshot of the rules, which do not say you have to be a registered Democrat nor does it say that you can't just register as a Democrat at any time.

Wanting it to be true does not make it true.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
497. Do you tire of being wrong?
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 04:35 PM
Nov 2018

Read the rule. You are totally wrong on your conclusion just as you were wrong to think that the Washington Post article cited in the OP helped your claim.

I hate the new super-delegate rule but I am glad that this new rule will keep sanders from pulling his normal stunt that he just used in Vermont. sanders will have to agree in writing to be a member of the party and to run and serve as a member of the party. sanders has not done this in Vermont.

The threat that unless the party nominates a person who is totally unacceptable to the majority of the party a small minority of the party will work to re-elect trump will not work I understand that some sanders supporters are evidently proud of their role in electing trump but the rest of the party is unified in their hatred of trump.

For example is sanders runs again, he will to explain his efforts to help trump' victory and defend things like his role in the sanders delegation's stunt of booing Congressman John Lewis.
Do you agree with your fellow sanders supporters and JPR types that Congressman John Lewis deserved to be booed at the National Convention and the sanders was correct in not taking any steps to block this stunt? https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/

FSogol

(45,488 posts)
514. Translation: You do what I want or I'll take my ball and go home!
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:20 PM
Nov 2018


Didn't work on me when I was 7, doesn't work on me now.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
525. Sounds like you're making a threat, kid...
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 08:02 PM
Nov 2018

It's "people like you" who got us Trump in the first place...

Quit trying to be so self-important. If you want to prove your worth, you'd best get your ass out on the streets and on the phones canvassing... Got no time for backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
563. Hilarious.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 09:26 AM
Nov 2018

Even the most casual glance at voting demographics should divorce anyone of moderate intelligence of the notion it was young people who "got us Trump". But by all means, keep blaming young people for not nullifying the votes of the old. That'll get them out.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
566. Not youth, but those who are so radicalized that they will only vote for their candidate...
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 11:00 AM
Nov 2018

even if he or she has a minority support in the Democratic Party and can't win the nomination.

When those folks sit out and attack the legitimacy of the Democratic nominee it is a losing situation.

Anyone of moderate intelligence ought to be able to figure that out.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
570. Repeating the same thing twice doesn't make it any more sensible.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 12:50 PM
Nov 2018

The people most directly responsible for "getting us Trump" are the people who voted for Trump. Then, in descending order of culpability, are those who did not vote at all, and, finally, those who cast votes for third party candidates in swing states.

Lobbing molotovs might make one feel superior and win esteem among one's immediate peer group, but a more sensible person might recognize that of the parties concerned (Trump voters, non-voters, and progressive third party voters) only one of them is ever likely to vote Democrat, and might therefore sensibly conclude courting them to be more advantageous in the long run.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
573. I agree, repeating nonsense doesn't make nonsense more sensible.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:14 PM
Nov 2018

People who didn't vote, voted Green, or wrote in the name of a failed candidate (or anyone else) are 100% culpable in the election of Donald J Trump.

That's not "lobbying Molotov cocktails," that's exercising critical thinking.

Helping Trump win is what is irrational. Shame on those who did so.

If any of those people believe the Democratic Party should surrender itself to their threats, then I think those people are delusional.

Greywing

(1,124 posts)
540. BASTA! I think young people spoke loud and clear in the mid-terms ...
Mon Nov 12, 2018, 09:33 PM
Nov 2018

they helped turn out the vote and are looking forward, not backward. I wholeheartedly embrace the idea of moving forward ...

xmas74

(29,674 posts)
555. Really?
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 01:30 AM
Nov 2018

My very liberal 18 year old has said repeatedly that Sanders and his comments about identity politics can f@ck off. She has stated she has no use for him.

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
564. What is so perfect about this thread
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 10:43 AM
Nov 2018

is that all the responses prove my initial post. There are a lot of people who still don't realize that we will not win without unity. People need to put aside their petty feelings and support all Democratic allies. It's the adult thing to do. It's the wise thing to do. Those who disagree must really want a second trump term. Not me!

violetpastille

(1,483 posts)
583. I Believe that's the definition of a Democrat.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 03:32 PM
Nov 2018

If someone votes with Democrats most times in the Senate

But is not a Democrat

Is that a Democratic Ally?

 

realmirage

(2,117 posts)
599. That would also qualify.
Fri Nov 16, 2018, 06:39 PM
Nov 2018

Anyone who votes for and supports Democrats. Yes. We need all of those people.

 

Small-Axe

(359 posts)
584. Which means those who don't for Democrats are not allies.
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 03:54 PM
Nov 2018

Don't expect the Democratic Party to turn itself over to those who are not our allies.

violetpastille

(1,483 posts)
585. I think I get it..
Tue Nov 13, 2018, 04:14 PM
Nov 2018

So if I vote for someone who is not a Democrat but is an an Independent "Democratic- Ally" , I am not a Democratic Ally?

But I am a Democratic Ally-Ally? Or am I Democratic Ally-Ally-Ally? Unless he switches parties to become a Democrat. Then I'm a Democrat again. But he can't do that this next time so...

I should probably keep things simple and just vote (D).

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
601. There are only two groups being discussed, Real.
Sat Nov 17, 2018, 10:12 AM
Nov 2018

One is the hugely diverse coalition of factions who average out mainstream. They're overwhelmingly progressive in approach but otherwise vary in almost every possible way, ideologically ranging from radical left-wing thinkers to mainstream liberals to progressive conservatives. But what unites them are generally

* Belief in liberal and progressive values and goals.
* Belief in the value of working through the Democratic Party to achieve them.
* Belief that the party needs improvement and occasional kicks in the butt, not revolution.
* Belief that by far most of the problems they must solve, and all the critically important ones, are created by today's Republicans and those operating through them.

The other is a dissident progressive faction who believe the Democratic Party coalition is the big problem they must solve, and that's where 90% of their passion is focused. Some are radical-leaning liberals, often populist leaning, and some are social-conservative populists, and dissidence against the mainstream is their reason for being. For that reason, RealMirage, the leaders will NEVER allow the unity called for in your OP.

Neither type is new, of course. Our revolutionary mainstream founders were unable to work with dissident revolutionaries of their day (actually, I don't think they tried much). FDR and company tried to ally with them, but ultimately they had to accomplish their mainstream revolution over the passionate and ferocious opposition of The Only True Progressives, who were sickened at the Democratic Party's "corrupt" refusal to turn the U.S. into a socialist state.

Gothmog

(145,291 posts)
605. sanders will not be the nominee of the party despite your threats
Sun Nov 18, 2018, 04:16 PM
Nov 2018

sanders so-called progressives who would not vote for an African American just cost us the Georgia and Florida governor's races.

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