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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYou're going to need people like me in 2020
I like the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. I think what Sanders proved is that a lot of other people do too. Did you see his support in places like West Virginia? That guy can pull votes from an array of groups.
If you have young people in your family, ask them about Sanders and the progressive movement. You want to say now that young people dont vote in the numbers older people do, right? Heres something that you should give a good hard look -
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/20/more-young-people-voted-for-bernie-sanders-than-trump-and-clinton-combined-by-a-lot/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.fa5cd9c89dde
Now ask yourself, how would you win without that percentage that DOES vote? What if it went down by half? What if they turn away from our Party and do something stupid like vote Green Party because we dont make room for Sanders and the progressive movement in our big tent?
United we stand, remember?
Sanders still has an ENORMOUS support base. You have to admit reality, that Sanders has a very good chance at winning the nomination in 2020. But if he doesnt, we are going to need his supporters.
And no, the DNC rules do NOT prevent Sanders from getting the nomination. That Newsweek article debunked itself with a screenshot of the rules that do NOT say you need to be a registered Democrat to get it.
It will be beyond sad if we go limping into the general election in 2020 because we cant tell friend from foe. Yes, the past is painful, but I want to win. And if it means I have to put aside my feelings about the past so that there can be hope for tomorrow, then I am mature enough to do the hard adult stuff and support ALL the people in our big tent so that we can defeat this cancerous movement on the right that threatens everything, including democracy itself.
manor321
(3,344 posts)LOL. What the heck does that even mean?
The Democratic party has moved to the left, because of any number of influences, not the least of which is Trump and the GOP attacking health care.
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)I'm always arguing with Bernie's people that they need to pay more attention to the black caucus and the progressive caucus. Many of them don't pay attention to these people. They have been promoting progressive causes for years. Like on Twitter, they should follow these people and support and promote their views whenever they can. So many of them are also talking about the issues Bernie talks about. We have a number of these people here in the Chicago area and they're terrific. I'm also a big fan of Barbara Lee. How can someone call themselves a "progressive" and not follow Barbara Lee?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)And help each other and recognize we are all on the same team
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)will also need Hillary supporters if the party is to accomplish anything.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Paladin
(28,262 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)the Nazi?
That is how I read it, I dont want to talk to or know people like that.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders supporters helped to elect trump in 2016 and now we are being threatened again http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320
Here is some more https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study
In several key states Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan the number of Sanders to Trump defectors were greater than Trumps margin of victory, according to new numbers released Wednesday by UMass professor Brian Schaffner.
Link to tweet
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)We can't keep fighting 2016.
If Sanders supporters crossed to Trump or Jill Stein, it's still incumbent on the Democratic nominee to make their case to those voters. Democrats crossed for Reagan and Nixon - this is nothing new.
Also, and maybe this is just me, you don't suppose some of those crossovers were persons that switched parties because they were anti-Hillary; voted for Sanders; and had no intention of ever voting for the Democratic nominee?
Separation
(1,975 posts)As I know never Trumpers.
Take that info and do with it as you please. One can say, "Well, I bet you sure do wish you could go back and vote instead of abstaining or voting a spoiler vote." and one can hold the moral high ground that they may have, and they get to stand there smelling the fragrant bouquet of their farts. It still got Trump elected either way and it will again in 2020.
When I see Democrats and the type of infighting they do, it sometimes reminds me of cutting one's nose off to spite their face. I guess, however, that can be said for just about anyone though.
I made a post a while back with the title of Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, and Jill Stein walks into a bar, and people lost their shit, or worse tried playing coy and not seeing any problem at all and thanking me for my concern.
Instead, there needs to be a common message that spans across the lines of Democrats, Independents, Green, whatever. It sure as shit shouldn't be, "Vote for our guy/girl because he/she isn't Trump." That's a sure fire way to lose voters to apathy again. It does need to try and unite those 3 parties, I mean hell. They all share a very common core of beliefs, find the one thing that unites them all (except for Never Trump) and it should be an easy win. Healthcare, Immigration, fair trade, are all common bonds. Then you just need a good looking guy or gal (a famous Instagrammer should do the trick), or at least 3 or 4 damn good speech writers and handlers and that's a winning combination! (Obviously, the Instagrammer part was said in jest, but ya get what I'm trying to say) or hope.
mountain grammy
(26,623 posts)And I agree.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)You are absolutely correct about the "Never Hillary" voters, and I supported Hillary (and I'm really sad she lost).
For many on the left, her IWR vote was an unforgivable deal breaker. Other Progressives dislike Bill Clinton for "ending welfare as we know it" and see Hillary as being cut from the same cloth. Still others are angered that she didn't stand up for herself and divorce Bill for his frequent infidelity.
1) Votes have to be earned. Any candidate needs to be seen as being able to deliver benefits that are important to the voter.
2) No one wins by looking in the rear view mirror and constantly dragging 2016 into 2020.
3) We win by finding the core issues we can unite around and that separate us from Trump and the Billionaire Oligarchs.
spooky3
(34,456 posts)IWR vote, the evidence suggests that is a pretext. For example, the vast majority of Democrats voted for the IWR, because they were lied to, but this was an unforgivable sin only for H Clinton.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)It's one of the reasons the lefter Dems supported Howard Dean.
spooky3
(34,456 posts)No, they did not.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Kos and bloggers like Swanson ripped him. Unlike Hillary, Kerry lost the popular vote - but just barely.
Two years later, the war was a train wreck and there was a blue wave midterm.
I'd also point out Hillary's opponents in 2008 made a big point about her IWR vote; Obama wasn't a Senator then, which proved advantageous.
spooky3
(34,456 posts)That the standards applied to her were applied in the same way to others. I think there is a tremendous amount of sexism in society, including in some on the left, that they refuse to address and correct.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Including - oddly - sexism among white women.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)The idea that we need to nominate a candidate who is totally unacceptable to the vast bulk of the party or face a boycott by one group is unacceptable
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)And I think calling it a "vast bulk/tiny minority" situation is unproductive. Let's hear all sides and let the 2020 primaries do what they are designed to do.
I went through 2016 being pissed off at him for running for the Democratic nomination with a career of I - VT in front of his name, and while I think everyone would be better off if he became a Democrat going forward and took a seat at the table. Where is Sanders wrong at this point? Medicare for all? Raising taxes on the 1%?
At this point, I'm over re fighting 2016. Both sides of the 2016 primary debate need to commit to supporting whoever comes out of that process. I love reading Grantcart's stuff, because s/he (I don't know) writes so well, but how is this essay in another thread called "Bernie" helpful? Both sides of 2016 need to focus on common ground and building bridges. The Republicans and authoritarian billionaires are the enemy, not Bernie Sanders supporters.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)If sanders does run, then there will be ads about the John Lewis incident at the National Convention and questions about the efforts sanders made to help elect trump.
It takes years of hard work to earn a slot to the national convention and it was not fun having my daughter attacked by sanders delegates and called the C-word because she would not get me to change my vote. sanders knew about and took no steps to stop this behavior.
sanders tax returns will also answer some questions about the 2016 race.
Again, I doubt that sanders will run but if he does, there are a ton of democrats with long memories who will not forgive or forget
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)If Sanders does run, certainly issues such as you mention will be brought up in the primaries -- assuming that he does run as a Democrat and not as an independent/Green/etc. The voters will weigh those issues accordingly, and that is why primaries should not be coronations, but should be an opportunity for testing and vetting.
At the same time, little is gained looking the rear view mirror if all we seek to do is settle scores from 2016. Everyone would be better served finding issues that Progressives of all stripes can unite around against Trump and the Oligarchs.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 11, 2018, 07:20 PM - Edit history (1)
To get onto the ballot as an independent, sanders will have to file tax returns in several blue states. I doubt that sanders will want these returns reviewed or vetted by the press. In addition, if sanders run as an indie, he will lose any chance of everbeing a Senate committee chair.
If sanders goes indie for POTUS, he sill be as hated as nader. nader ruined his place in history by being Rove's tool. sanders risks a similar fate
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)But I also think needlessly pissing off his supporters isn't a great way to win their votes for the party's eventual nominee. They might not vote for Trump, but without motivation that their needs are being heard, they might not vote at all. Then no one wins.
The 2016 primary is in the books. It's time to move forward.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I reject the concept that the entire Democratic Party must select candidates who are acceptable to a small segment of the base. This is especially difficult given that according to sanders, many members of this progressive base will not vote for African American candidates like Andrew Gillium or Stacy Abrams. It is clear that members of the sanders base may be the margin of victory for DeStanis over Gillium
Link to tweet
I reject the concept that we should cater to so-called progressives who evidently are demanding all white candidates. Are you comfortable that we need to only nominate white candidates in order to cater to the sanders base? The so-called progressives who voted against Gillium are not a group who I think that we need to focus on or cater to.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)As I understand it, Sanders said this:
"You know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American."
1) I think the comment was clumsy. However, I don't read anything remotely resembling a demand for all white candidates. I think he was trying to say, "there are a lot of racists in Florida and Georgia and that could be a factor." He'd be correct.
2) While it is doubtful that many Dems there were deciding whether they wanted to vote for African-Americans for the first time (Obama won Florida 2x IIRC), Georgia has had deep Red politics for years. Florida has been turning Redder generally since the election of Jeb Bush. If you believe that race isn't a factor in that, then I have beachfront property in Kansas I want to sell you.
3) Bernie Sanders supported former NAACP leader Ben Jealous for Governor of Maryland. So presumably, his supporters followed his lead and voted for Jealous. Yet Republican Larry Hogan won by a wide margin - and for that to happen, a lot of Dems had to cross over. Now, to be fair, Hogan has been praised for being bipartisan. That said, you don't suppose race might have been a factor? It's naive to think it wasn't. Again, Obama won Maryland twice. But in 2016, Trump won 62% of white men and 52% of white women.
4) Gillum and Abrams may yet win. But if they don't, they performed a task that will help future candidates. They kicked the door hard - maybe next time we will break it down. Al Smith had to lose so that some day Jack Kennedy could win.
5) Continued anger with Sanders and his supporters gets us nowhere.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)It would be a bad move to nominate sanders if his voters are not going to vote for down ballot candidates unless they are white. Andrew Gilliam found that a sanders endorsement is not that valuable in the real world judging from the results posted above.
I am sure that sanders will not be the nominee of the party.
look, bernie is just too much for some dems-i am one of them. if nancy does not run after assuming the presidency, how about getting some youngblood in there? i'm thinking a ticket with beto, kamala..moderate yet feisty
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)in the primary, trying to nominate someone they thought would be weaker against DT in the general.
He would have loved to have run against a "socialist."
Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)Response to Gothmog (Reply #93)
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George II
(67,782 posts)And if it's not a Democrat? Who WILL you vote for?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Not surprised, however.
George II
(67,782 posts)Squinch
(50,954 posts)spread rumors that Hillary beat up Bernie" bullshit. There is nothing new in this.
Seems to be a lot of it around here since election day. Our success must have scared some people pretty badly.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Each candidate has the right to approve their delegates and real candidates vet their delegates. I was vetted by the Clinton campaign and I helped to vet other delegates. The sanders campaign had some delegates who were out of control including a group who decided to yell obscenities at my daughter and call her the c-word because she would not try to get me to change my vote.
The threat in the OP is sad but will have no effect. sanders is not going to be the nominee so long as a large number of democrats remember who hard sanders worked to elect trump
Squinch
(50,954 posts)I'm so sorry you and your daughter were put through that.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)There were a large number of formed DU posters on that thread who were happy to see Congressman John Lewis being booed. I really doubt that sanders will run but if does, you will see ads featuring this stunt.
sanders will not be the nominee of the party so long as the nominee needs support from the groups like Jewish, Latino and African American voters.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)Squinch
(50,954 posts)they could be taken exactly the opposite of how I meant them. I hope my subsequent comments cleared it up.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I mistook your prior comments
I am sorry that I misunderstood your posts
Squinch
(50,954 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)It was a very long Tuesday and I had more voter protection calls and sent out more poll watchers than in past elections. I had a ton of calls during early voting and to send poll watchers out during the early vote (which I have never done before).
George II
(67,782 posts)...things typed on a black and white screen without vocal inflection can be taken wrong.
Response to Gothmog (Reply #180)
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Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Do you really think that sanders did much to campaign for her? sanders endorsement speech was all about himself as was his speech at the convention. I was there when the sanders delegates booed Congressman John Lewis. I was warned about this stunt 30 minutes before it happened by the Clinton campaign whip. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this event and declined. That incident will be used against sanders if he runs in 2020.
I was at the Texas delegation breakfast when a group of sanders delegates marched in and demanded that we condemn Clinton and change our votes to sanders.
sanders spoke to the Texas delegation the next morning and his speech was again solely about himself. There was a mini-riot due to his delegates the prior morning and the only thing that sanders talked about was himself. sanders did nothing to deal with the fact that his delegates were out of control and did nothing to try to help Hillary Clinton win the general election.
Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused
Many democrats do not believe that sanders really tried to help Clinton. Many democrats blame sanders for helping trump win Sanders clearly took a large number of actions that were designed to hurt the party and help trump.
Response to Gothmog (Reply #516)
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Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I have been to a number of state conventions and I can tell you that sanders did not really try to support Clinton. In 2008, I was part of the Obama voter protection team and we were fighting a number of credential challenges filed by Clinton delegates including one that really challenged all delegates from my county for a reason that I could never figure out. Three days before the Texas convention, Hillary Clinton endorsed President Obama and did so in the proper manner. sanders endorsements and his speeches at the convention were all about sanders.
My daughter went to Denver as the chaperone for a group of high school students and saw Hillary Clinton do what was a proper endorsement of President Obama. I know a couple of delegates who attended that convention and they were amazed at how hard she worked for President Obama. Due to one of my law school classmates, she got see Clinton address one of the caucuses and was amazed at how passionate Hillary Clinton was. There is no comparison to what both Clintons did in 2008 to support President Obama and how sanders behaved.
I know the difference between a real endorsement and what sanders did. I am sorry but I and a large number of democrats do not believe that sanders did much to support Clinton and that he took steps to disrupt the convention and to make the national convention about himself including having his delegates boo Congressman John Lewis. Again, sanders addressed the Texas delegation the morning after his delegates caused a near riot and all sanders did was to talk about himself.
I hope that sanders does not run. I will support the nominee but I am sure that sanders will not be the nominee after the stunts he pulled at the convention. I and other democrats have long memories and we saw what happened up close. My whip works for the party and he and other Clinton campaign types will be happy to tell the world what happened at the convention.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)You're going to do great here.
ecstatic
(32,707 posts)Cary
(11,746 posts)Our path is clear:.get our people out to vote. All politics are local. If certain people want to be included thst's wonderful, but they have to act like adults. One cannot successfully be part of a coalition and be obnoxious about it.
Response to Eliot Rosewater (Reply #28)
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octoberlib
(14,971 posts)who are on the receiving end of Trump's White Power crap.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)This is why my 18 year old can't stand Sanders or his supporters. She mentioned dealing with them even this summer while campaigning for McCaskill. She said they refused to help instead wanting to rehash how the party screwed them in 2016.
I'm still dealing with one two years later who has refused to do anything for the party unless we promise to campaign for Sanders if he decides to primary in 2020. They are always younger white men and sometimes women who are loud, like to talk over everyone else, demand to be the center of attention and don't care if anyone else has their needs addressed-just free college and weed.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)MATH
vote for column 1 you will get MASSIVE climate change, racism and injustice for all but rich W folks...
vote for column 2, even if it is Joe Manchin, you get NONE of that
REAL fucking SIMPLE
lillypaddle
(9,580 posts)They've always been about threats.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Imo, anyone who doesn't understand that liberalism, and thus the Democratic Party, is effectively synonymous with progressivism doesn't understand anything about our party. Almost as clueless as trumpsters soaking up Ann Coulter are on the subject, but mirror images in that none will ever thank Democrats for all they have through progressive government.
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)Talk of 2020 already? Politics should'nt be our daily news fare. At some point we need to be able to live our lives trusting the people we put in office to do their fiduciary duty and let citizens have fulfilling lives knowing they truly have our backs. Whats the point of representatives if they only have one constituent...themselves.
We still have results coming in from this round of elections. Good lords. HRC beat Bernie, and she gets less chin music than bernie folks.
To the OP...you have two years...maybe start IU? And we'll come over there and chant about Democrats. I'll be curious to see your response. Just saying.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)The party is making room for Sanders and his supporters. That's why he has a leadership position in the party. DU is the entity that doesn't. Vastly different. Don't confuse the two.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Glamrock
(11,802 posts)questionseverything
(9,656 posts)I got my only hide for expressing my opinion on why that is
<shrugs>
watching c-span a couple mornings ago, open phones on healthcare and I heard over & ovr again," I agree with Bernie or healthcare is a human right"
so I feel like the country is moving in the right direction
Cha
(297,275 posts)Twitterverse. It's not only here where he gets called on what he says against my Democratic Party.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)Let's see-- Cory Booker says that.
Gillum says that.
Nancy Pelosi says that.
Kamala Harris says that.
Etc.
In fact, it was a plain old regular Democratic president and momentarily Democratic Congress that has done the most to get us towards that goal.
Why pretend only Sanders is for that? Most Democrats are. And there are some Democrats who have actually done more than talk loudly about it.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)still_one
(92,216 posts)Hillary and President Obama were called every foul name in the book by suppossed progressives
If you got a hide for that, did you appeal?
Bernie didnt start the healthcare for all conversation, the Democrats have been discussing this for decades
calimary
(81,304 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)People shouldn't justify doing bad things just because some other people do bad things.
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)the ACA. The Clintons ran on health care for everyone decades ago.
No revisionist history, thanks.
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)which of course is still better than the repub plan of dying fast
realmirage
(2,117 posts)As we all know, juries in America are susceptible to bias and people's feelings. We are flawed beings all of us.
still_one
(92,216 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)It is what it is. Change is always difficult for people. It's always been that way. Progress always requires dragging people into the future kicking and screaming.
Celerity
(43,402 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)I wanted Hillary to win, and now I want the Democratic nominee to win NO MATTER WHO IT IS. Meanwhile, attacking progressives is a reallllllly bad idea since we need all the votes we can get.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)He doesn't have a leadership position IN the party. He is granted the status of ranking committee member on a Senate committee, but he's not in a leadership position.
He could be, if he wanted to, but he only becomes a Democrat when he wants access to the primaries, apparently.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)He is Chairman of outreach for the Senate Democratic Party. Here's the first followup I found.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)Not to be pedantic, but that puts him in the leadership of the Democratic caucus in the Senate, NOT the party. He has agreed to caucus with the Democrats for a long time, and in return is sometimes rewarded with a position.
Anyway, if he actually does have an influence, I'm not really sure what your grievance is. He has a small amount of power in a party he doesn't want to belong to. He's played his cards well so far.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)I never said I was upset in any way whatsoever. The Senate Democrats gave him a leadership position. Chairman of Democratic outreach.
Voltaire2
(13,051 posts)Concise correct and puts things in perspective.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)dhol82
(9,353 posts)He is now a registered independent.
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)The Chairman of Committee Outreach is a Democratic United States Senator and member of the party leadership of the United States Senate responsible for representing the views of Senate committee chairs to the chamber's Democratic leadership.
From Wiki
dhol82
(9,353 posts)He is not now a democrat.
Your response?
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)Was appointed in '16 I think.
dhol82
(9,353 posts)Surprise!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Glamrock
(11,802 posts)brush
(53,784 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)2016 was tailor-made for Sanders and that race was over by Super Tuesday.
There are plenty of progressive candidates, such as Harris, who have a much better grasp of issues and a much better chance of getting out the base.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)He had almost no name recognition, no funding and virtually no infrastucture when it started. 2020 would be a radically different proposition.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)Garrett78
(10,721 posts)In an anti-establishment environment. You can't ask for a much better situation than that.
Sanders had a following from his years of being a regular guest on Thom Hartmann, and he had developed a lot of name recognition by the time the first primary occurred. The only other non-Clinton candidate in the race at that time was O'Malley, who never gained any traction and dropped out after Iowa.
If you think 2020 will be nearly as favorable for Sanders, I have some bridges to sell you.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Sanders entered the primary polling 57 points behind Hillary. He ended up losing by only about 12 points. Even by July of 2015 an astonishing 68% of latinos 'did not know or had not yet formed an opinion' about him. I can't find the exact numbers now for other demographics groups, but they were terribly, terribly low when the primary started. In April '15 Gallup showed 76% of people polled having 'No opinion' about him.
Now he's a household name and in a poll last month had a favourable of 53-38. That includes a 78% favourability amongst Democrats and a 54% favourability amongst independents.
Make no mistake, he's a very serious contender for the nomination next time around if his health holds up.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Again, he was *the* Clinton alternative. It was a 1-on-1 contest between him and a polarizing Clinton. That's about as ideal as it gets. And the race was over by Super Tuesday. If not for anti-democratic caucuses, it would have been a much bigger blowout.
Sanders has no chance. Ron Paul always did great in straw polls. But when you don't have the support of your party's base, you aren't going to get nominated.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Bernie announced on April 28, 2015, and for many months was considered a complete outsider who had absolutely no chance of competing seriously, and as such received very little serious media coverage. At that stage there were a number of other candidates who had better name recognition than Sanders.
Sanders has an excellent chance of getting the nomination due to his consistently high favourables, high polling and lack of major policy baggage. Whether you accept that or not is really up to you, but if you don't you'll get a nasty shock in about a years time.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)LOL Establishment.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)He'd focused primarily on the first few states, and winning New Hampshire gained him a lot of press elsewhere. It was still far, far too late for an equal contest however, especially in the south where Hillary had such a strong early advantage.
Hillary won the primary, but to try and deny she had an absolutely massive advantage in terms of name recognition and organization is frankly bizarre.
Garrett78
(10,721 posts)And you're ignoring the fact that Sanders was in a 1-on-1 race against a polarizing candidate in an anti-establishment environment. All non-Clinton supporters had 1 and only 1 option. That won't be the case in 2020, and Sanders has done nothing to improve his standing with the base.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)It only ended up 1-on-1 because the other numerous candidates couldn't raise enough support to contest the race effectively. Have you forgotten about Martin O'Malley already? Lincoln Chaffee? Jim Webb? Lawrence Lessig?
As for what Sanders has or hasn't done with the base, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I see him in an excellent position for 2020. If he was 10 years younger I'd be putting money on it.
LuvLoogie
(7,010 posts)Being from Chicago, I don't put ketchup on my hot dogs, either.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Especially spicy ketchup from whataburger. If youre ever in the Southwest, order it
LuvLoogie
(7,010 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)From the Houston paper https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Ted-Cruz-Beto-O-Rourke-Whataburger-spicy-ketchup-13144032.php?utm_campaign=fb-desktop&utm_source=CMS+Sharing+Button&utm_medium=social
Ted Cruz's campaign issued a statement to the Star-Telegram on Thursday concerning the likeness of Beto O'Rourke's campaign logo and Whataburger's spicy ketchup.
As many social media users have pointed out, both black and white designs share some similarities.
Link to tweet
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I still have a good supply of these packets
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Wounded Bear
(58,662 posts)Interesting. Yeah, we need your support. It remains to be seen if we need to cede control of the entire party to you.
I get plenty of 'my way or the highway' crap from the right. Now I need to be threatened from the left, too?
Whatever.
How about we decide things, oh, I don't know, democratically?
OAITW r.2.0
(24,504 posts)Are you returning from JPR? I've heard this song before here. You have 2 choices: work with the Democrats who are open to many of Bernie's ideas or work with the Republicans who are not..
realmirage
(2,117 posts)value of the Democratic Party.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)You want everyone else in the tent to give you the tent...or else.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)The main body of Sanders support are further left than the Democratic mainstream, but at the end of the day, we mostly all want the same things.
...or are you not interested in getting independents to vote for our candidates?
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)Either or propositions that presuppose loss if Sanders followers don't feel all the love.
OAITW r.2.0
(24,504 posts)I look forward to you working with the Bernista's to get them into the tent. BS will be far more effecctive in the Senate in 2020 when the Democrats take the Senate and the Presidency.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)I think we would do better to expend party resources on, you know, Stacey Abrams sorts of people, not some old guy in Vermont who can't bring himself to put D after his name even at this point.
He's ineffective by design.
OAITW r.2.0
(24,504 posts)I just want to see realmirage (I kinda like that moniker) using his time and energy getting Bernie's "Never Dems" followers to reconsider the political reality. You got two choices for Federal offices - us or them. Anything else is a wasted vote.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Response to Gothmog (Reply #334)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)The voting results posted in this thread shows that sanders supporters or so-called progressives voted voted against a true progressive named Andrew Gillium and these votes were sufficient to give DeSantis the margin of victory.
It seems that sanders knows his supporters very well
Response to Gothmog (Reply #519)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)Squinch
(50,954 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)Small-Axe
(359 posts)The response: He's a populist demagogue who got Trump elected.
We like liberal Democrats in this family.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Washington post article in the OP? And where did this young person get this idea?
Small-Axe
(359 posts)I read the WaPo, my son did not.
You may be sorry he didn't provide the response that suits you, but I am not.
I'm pleased that he is going to carry on the family tradition of supporting liberal Democrats.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Your son may have a different view, but that article I posted should frighten people who think attacking their cause is a wise decision.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)that if we don't bend to your will that you are going to take your ball and go home.
I don't think Democrats are going to respond well to your threats.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Who wins there? Are you going to be Joe Crowley and just assume they'll show up or that you can live without them? AOC sits in his seat now.
Republicans want walls. We should want bridges. Instead of fighting 2016 over and over, let's find common ground for 2020.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)Sorry, but these folks have no claim to the term. These folks are regressives. Pure and simple.
Threats by regressives that they will sit out 2020 are not going to win friends among Democratic loyalists.
I support Democrats.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)... creating good American jobs; fighting climate change; ending racial profiling; ending the war on drugs; trimming the bloated and wasteful defense budget; making the Billionaires pay their share; and ending the war in Afghanistan
For these reasons, I choose to be a Democrat. But if the Democrats consistently failed to make progress on these issues that are important to me, then I'd look for another party. If I couldn't find a party that supported some of these things, eventually I'd disengage from politics altogether.
We need to think less about the party we support and more about the issues we believe are the most important. Work to find commonalities and cooperation.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)Not one for those who wish to threaten our party with "my way or the highway" type blackmail.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Members are not expected to hold across-the-board progressive opinions on every single issue, but we do expect members to be generally progressive and to support Democrats at election time -- remember that and respect it when posting. Harsh, divisive, partisan attacks against Democrats or progressive values (from the right or the left) are not welcome here.
But above all, we want our members to be friendly to each other. The vast majority of our members are thoughtful people who care about issues, and most of us can handle a different opinion if it is shared in a respectful way. No matter where you stand on the political spectrum, a little human kindness goes a long way toward smoothing over our differences and making this place feel like a community.
Terms of Service
It's not for "committed and loyal Democrats" - at least not exclusively. It's for liberals/progressives who want to get Democrats elected.
And what the OP said isn't blackmail. Blackmail is "I'll tell your spouse about your sleeping with prostitutes unless you give me $5,000." That's not the construct here. Votes have to be earned; the OP is laying out the perspective s/he has on earning the votes of Sanders supporters. If you tell your boss "I need a 15% raise or I'm taking a job elsewhere", that's not blackmail. It's offering your boss a choice - albeit an unpleasant one. You have an arrangement that isn't viable for one of you. Wouldn't you prefer that your boss engage you and at least try to see if something can be worked out?
Small-Axe
(359 posts)Saying nominate my candidate or I walk is blackmail. Sorry. You are wrong.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Blackmail defined
the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person.
Small-Axe, you have less than 100 posts, so welcome to DU! Meet other posters. Reach out. Make friends. Build bridges.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)With "friends" like that, who needs enemies?
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Don't make it binary. There are a lot of shades between friend and enemy. Try to learn nuance.
Hatred and stubbornness are threatening not only the party, but America generally. People who are fixated on what they dislike about Sanders need to look harder at what they have in common with him.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)When in comes to elections, life in America is binary.
Either one supports Democrats or they do not.
People in the latter category are not friends.
Period!
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I agree with your analysis. The premise of the OP is that the party must accept a candidate who is unacceptable to a majority of the base or watch these so called progressives work to re-elect trump. This progressive base will also only accept white candidates. Andrew Gilliam is losing due to the so-called progressives.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)I think there is confusion in some quarters about what's progressive and what is regressive.
The threats only solidify my determinination to resist those who'd resort to blackmail.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)The op clearly is asking for unity. And if you think young progressives are mature enough to be attacked and have their candidates attacked and then go out and vote for your candidate you dont know young people very well. Its just common sense.
Flaming allies in general is not very smart.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)You are playing dangerous games.
Grow up.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)the attacks
Small-Axe
(359 posts)They are very immature
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)The premise of the OP is that is the Democratic Party does nominate a candidate who is totally unacceptable to the vast majority of the base of the party, a small minority will do what they did in Florida and vote for independent candidates and help elect a republican. The vote of members of sanders base are the votes that gave DeDantis his margin of victory. sanders supporters would not vote for an African American and according to sanders this is okay.
sanders will not be the nominee of the party. There are far too many democrats who remember how hard sanders worked to help elect trump
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)an attack. If you cant win in very liberal California now two election cycles then it looks like you are the one who needs to reassess. Reality only. Thanks.
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)Flaming allies in general is not very smart. Then quit doing it. Thanks.
BTW, this opposite world campaign is not going to fly. We know who was attacked and which candidates were helped to harm her. The Russians helped Stein, Sanders and Trump. Those are known facts. Thats the reality framework.
What a hoot to say that only one man cant be attacked while any Democrat is held to a different standard.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Again, welcome to DU. We need more DUers to realize that it is not the size of the axe that matters, but how that axe is used.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)SMH.
Your vote is not the gift you give to the person who gives you everything you want. The purpose of our elections is not to present you with a mini-me to vote for. Your vote is not the prize you give only to the person who is like you, and who makes you tingle, and who gives your self-image a boost. Voting for the person whose policies you favor over the policies of the other candidates is YOUR CIVIC DUTY. We need to get back to the understanding that we have a civic duty.
We need to think less about our vote as a statement about our individuality. We need to think more about our vote as our civic duty as a member of an enormous Democracy.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)It's not like choosing a signature scent to express your personality!
It's like a bad commercial where two nearly identical products are placed side by side and one of them is thoroughly trashed, what a dummy you'd be to chose THAT one, be smarter and more special than those ordinary people; buy THIS one, everyone will be impressed and you will never be alone on a Saturday night again.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)The youngster is totally correct
realmirage
(2,117 posts)You think attacking their candidates and ideas is wise?
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders was eliminated mathematically in 2016 following Super Tuesday. sanders was not vetted by the press because no one in the press thought that sanders was a real or serious candidate. sanders would not survive a real vetting.
Again, there are a large number of democrats who believe that sanders helped trump win and we have long memories. We will not forgive or forget. sanders will not be the nominee when there are so many real democrats who are actual members of the party.
The new DNC rule will force sanders to actually join the party and force sanders to campaign as a member of the party
Link to tweet
In addition, new ballot access laws will require sanders to release five or ten years of tax returns. I really doubt that sanders will run in 2020 but if he does he will be grilled in the debates about his actions that were designed to help trump win.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders will never be the nominee of the party. sanders would alienated and lose the support of African American women voters, Jews and Latinos if he was the nominee. These groups are far more important to the party compared to the group identified in the OP.
BTW, these voters did show up in 2018 without sanders being on the ballot.
Again, sanders will never be the nominee so long as a large number of democrats remember how sanders worked to help trump be elected
Squinch
(50,954 posts)we read the WP article is misinterpreting what it means.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Again, the article cited does not support the concept that we have to nominate a candidate that many members of the party find to be totally unacceptable or face a boycott by young voters. Young voters turned out in greater numbers in 2018 without sanders being the nominee of the party
Squinch
(50,954 posts)This whole topic of "vote for Sanders or else" seems to me to be really quite dead. The rest of the world has moved on, and no one is insisting on president Bernie, even among his old fans.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I do not believe that sanders will be the nominee. There are a large number of Democrats with long memories who will not forget or forgive sanders for his efforts in helping trump win.
Texas will turn blue. This cycle gives me hope that Texas will be a true battleground state in 2020
Squinch
(50,954 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)ecstatic
(32,707 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)what your strategy is to win in 2020 without the progressive vote?
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Russia was helping sanders for a reason https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/02/17/indictment-russians-also-tried-help-bernie-sanders-jill-stein-presidential-campaigns/348051002/
A 37-page indictment resulting from special counsel Robert Muellers investigation shows that Russian nationals and businesses also worked to boost the campaigns of Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and Green party nominee Jill Stein in an effort to damage Democrat Hillary Clinton.
The Russians engaged in operations primarily intended to communicate derogatory information about Hillary Clinton, to denigrate other candidates such as Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, and to support Bernie Sanders and then-candidate Donald Trump, according to the indictment, which was issued Friday.
sanders success to some degree was due to Russia
sanders will not be the nominee of the party in 2020. There are a large number of democrats who have long memories and will not forgive or forget the role that sanders and russia played in election trump
realmirage
(2,117 posts)What is the strategy to win without progressives? Especially alienated young progressives as described in the wapo article I posted?
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders will not be the nominee of the party. There are other progressives in the party. Hopefully, the progressive wing has realized that staying home will only help trump. That is what happened in 2016
Link to tweet
Threats will not change anyone's mind on this
realmirage
(2,117 posts)And attacking the most recognized progressive and his supporters, especially the young voters I linked to in the OP, how is this wise? No one has yet answered the one question I keep asking.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I saw Bernie up close and Bernie will not be the nominee. Again, the sanders delegates had a planned stunt to boo Congressman John Lewis. The Clinton campaign warned all of her delegates 30 or so minutes in advance of the stunt. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop the stunt and declined.
I know that the JPR types and other sanders supporters love this stunt https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/ the Texas delegation shared a bus with the Georgia delegation. There were some people who were very upset with this stunt. I can assure that this stunt will be used in ads if sanders runs in 2020. sanders had little support from key elements of the base and would have less if he runs again. This stunt will be used against sanders. There are a ton of people in the Clinton campaign who were at the convention and would back this ad up.
African American voters and African American women voters are far more important to the party compared to these young progressives. Again, Clinton won in 2016 despite sanders' efforts to sabatoge her, James Comey, Russia and GOP voter suppression.
Link to tweet
Your threats will not help sanders. bernie will not be the nominee of the party so long as a large number of democrats remember what bernie did.
oasis
(49,388 posts)stunt against civil rights icon, John Lewis. This needs to be brought up until the Democratic Party gets a satisfactory answer.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders supporters applauded and agreed with this conduct. Read this post on JPR by sanders supporters on why they think that this was a good move by sanders and the sanders delegates https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/ According to my whip, this was a planned stunt and sanders refused to stop it. sanders knows that his base supported this move and sanders did not want to alienate his base of supporters.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)He just doesn't want to walk in that door.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Small-Axe
(359 posts)I rather disagree, as highlighted by this week's comments.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Putin and Russia flooded sites like JPR and other sanders sites with fake news to hurt Clinton https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bernie-sanders-fake-news-russia_us_58c34d97e4b0ed71826cdb36
The stories they posted werent the normal complaints he was used to seeing as the Vermont senator and the former secretary of state fought out the Democratic presidential primary. These stories alleged that Clinton had murdered her political opponents and used body doubles.
Mattes, 66, had been a television reporter and Senate investigator in previous lives. He put his expertise in unmasking fraudsters to work. At first, he suspected that the sites were created by the old Clinton haters from the 90s ― what Hillary Clinton had dubbed the vast right-wing conspiracy.
But when Mattes started tracking down the sites domain registrations, the trail led to Macedonia and Albania. In mid-September, he emailed a few of his private investigator friends with a list of the sites. Very creepy and i do not think Koch brothers, he wrote.
At one point, JPR had a half dozen threads on the greatest page of that website pushing the pizzagate story. After being laughed at on DU, the JPR site eventually ban pizzagate stories which were replaced by numerous other stories from Russia including some claiming that Clinton was dying
See also Russia Duped Bernie Fans via Facebook, San Diego Dems Toldhttps://timesofsandiego.com/politics/2017/03/23/russia-duped-bernie-fans-via-facebook-san-diego-dems-told/
John Mattes speaks to San Diego Democrats for Equality, the the predominantly gay club in Hillcrest. Photo by Ken Stone
But investigative journalist John Mattes, describing how fake stories on Facebook helped defeat Hillary Clinton, isnt sure who Mitov is.
He may be a bot. He may be a person [or four]. He may be living in Macedonia, laughing, Mattes told a rapt audience of 90 Thursday night in Hillcrest.
But Mitovs thousands of posts and similar ones from Albania and elsewhere duped just enough of the 13 million Sanders supporters to hand the election to Donald Trump and prove Russia could hack American democracy, said the 66-year-old resident of Pacific Beach.
A major Sanders organizer in Southern California himself, Mattes admitted that we were played.
Again, Mueller has documented the support that Russia gave to Sanders. I trust Mueller on this.
Again, many voters will want to know why Putin and Russia put some much effort into promoting sanders if sanders runs again. If sanders runs in 2020 he will need to provide a better answer to this question than he has so far
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Ummhmm.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)Members of this religion believe that universal health care, higher minimum wages, more affordable education, economic inequality are new ideas unique to Sanders.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)Sanders is old news to him. He's for Kamala Harris right now. Says Sanders talks a good game, but doesn't get anything done.
Someone in their 40s would be more useful to the progressive movement than someone older than Mom.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)Kennedy, Beto, Warren and Klobucher. She plans to be a campaign manager someday so she is more informed than the average kid but she says they all have that something.
She was a huge Kander fan and still really likes him but has said he'll never make a run for the WH after his announcement of PTSD, though we're hoping he can make a fantastic governor.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)And I like you.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)She's majoring in public relations with an emphasis in political media and a double minor in French and marketing. While most kids spent the summer after graduating from high school traveling or hanging out she spent it canvassing, phone banking, texting, attending events and entering paperwork as part of an unpaid internship for McCaskill and Galloway. The end result was a 1-1 with a loss by McCaskill and a win by Galloway. It was a hard loss for her but something she will need to get used to with her career choice.
markpkessinger
(8,401 posts)The whole idea is based on the assumption that those Bernie voters who didn't vote for Hillary in the general election, which has been estimated to have been around 12% of Bernie primary voters, would have ever voted for Hillary in the first place. I've got news for you: they never would have. They were voters Bernie had the ability to bring into the party that Hillary did not.
Bfd
(1,406 posts)Progressive is not an exclusive wing. It defines the continuous move of those Democrats thru history who fought for parity & equality across the board.
You lay no claim to exclusivity without recognizing those Democrats who have also worn the progression of positive forward policy till their shoes wore thin.
Their is no progressive wing. Progress belongs to all who proudly have worn the Democratic label for the good of this country.
I can think of a few seriously non-progressive choices Sen Sanders himself has made throughout his history.
Just the other day we were shocked to see 2 recent theories of his emerge that would cause one to question his claim of Progressiveness as held above the Democratic values.
Where exactly, then, does progressive begin and where is the line drawn?
In this case, one would see that progressive is not exclusive but it is rather, fluid.
You tell me.
Me.
(35,454 posts)Is it because BS keeps saying unfortunate things and his supporters are getting nervous. Are they afraid he has shot himself in the foot? What do you think.
Bfd
(1,406 posts)walk away convinced he is still progressive.
Tough task convincing a base of that reality after the horse is outta the barn & running amok.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)Bfd
(1,406 posts)exclusive placeholder of progressivism, then you have chosen division before progress.
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)(Two days in a row of this...seems, convenient...don't you think??)
No text to give.
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)Its these attacks on reality that are completely unsustainable and look to be soundly rejected by the majority of the electorate going on two years now.
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Keep in mind - I supported Hillary in 2016. But you asked about the line. That was a bright line for a lot of people.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)...and being completely fair, after 9-11, there was no way in 2003 that the recently-elected junior Senator from New York was voting against anything involving the war on terror - no matter how stupid it looked to many of the rest of us.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,355 posts)You ever ask yourself how you would win if the absolute rock solid most reliable Democratic voting bloc, black women, went down by half, or turned away from the party because they're sick of people saying they had to put aside their feelings so there was hope for tomorrow? That they're not mature enough to do the hard adult stuff and support ALL the people in the big tent? GTFO with this hot garbage.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)Lead by example.
Right now his example has been to leave the Democratic Party. I dont like it. Neither do many people working hard to fill this big tent of which you speak.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)The tent is wide open to anyone who wants to join the progressive cause, including Bernie himself.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We are on the same side.
dawg day
(7,947 posts)They aren't cult members, like the Trumpians, are they?
They can think for themselves, right?
They are more dedicated to progressive ideas than they are dedicated to one person, right?
This isn't all about Sanders, is it?
Everyone is welcome into the Democratic party, including Sen. Sanders.
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)Explain.
lapucelle
(18,268 posts)to turn out obdurate followers in support of the Democratic Party's nominee. You should have more confidence in his abilities.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)No one is stopping his supporters from joining the party. Our progressive platform obviously invites and welcomes other progressives.
I imagine that if Bernie joined the party, so would his supporters. And it would shut up the noise about him not being a Democrat. Problem solved, no?
But instead the party will be held hostage because..... fuck I dont even know his real rationale for not joining the party he wants to lead. Why in the hell does he have to play games and make it so complicated?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)to attack them when we know his support among young voters, and we know very well how immature young people can be when you attack them? You want them staying home? Did you look at the link in he OP?
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)No one is denying them a progressive platform. No one is denying them entrance to the party. No one is denying them a voice. That's obvious by the amount of young people drawn to the party by Democrats like Beto.
Why is it so hard to just admit that Bernie is making this harder on himself? Why has he created a situation that he knows is likely to split Democrats apart? There is an easy solution to this, but you just want to deflect from that.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Is that simply due to a lack of relevant knowledge, or do you believe your melodrama is a progressive value?
"we know very well how immature young people can be when you attack them"
Yeah... reading your responses does give us an indication of that.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Hekate
(90,712 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)It's all so very Susan Sarandonesque... truly bizarre. It's the 2020 version of "Bernie or Bust" threat.
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)Smells like a shitty duck to me...
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Seriously wedgie.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)xmas74
(29,674 posts)Tammy Duckworth!
Hekate
(90,712 posts)...again and again ad infinitum, is the old guy who waves his arms a lot and is not a Democrat.
xmas74
(29,674 posts)She thinks he's ineffective and only aims to totally dismantle the Democratic Party.
She is a proud Democrat and wants to be a campaign manager when she finishes her degree. She's probably more knowledgeable at her age then most are in a lifetime.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,355 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)...rather than insisting the tent moves to him.
Youthful arrogance is still arrogance.
Bfd
(1,406 posts)Wtf ever.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,355 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,355 posts)brer cat
(24,573 posts)and thank you! The idea that we must "make room" for their idol or they will take their ball and go home is immature, narcissistic, and political suicide. If their self-identified "wing" is to have power, they must learn to work within our tent, not demand that we tear it down and build a new one just to their specifications. The OP needs to grow up.
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)your opinion of Bernie Sanders did a 180 degree turn?
Your posts from 2016 provide a very different perspective on him. Here's a sample of your comments back then:
I will never, ever vote for Sanders, even if a miracle made him the nom
After what happened here
https://www.google.com/amp/thedailybanter.com/.amp/2016/05/sanders-shout-obscenities-clinton-rally/?client=safari#
The camapaign is now something that I want nothing to do with ever, for any reason, and I must say I am so glad that Hillary has beaten him, and it will be a good day when I'm watching him concede, and then pack up and go back to Vermont, never to run for pres again.
Posted by realmirage | Fri May 6, 2016, 01:53 PM (60 replies)
Sanders doing permanent damage to his "revolution"
I guess BS hasn't learned the tough lesson Ted Kennedy learned after losing to jimmy carter and helping Reagan win. Reagan's win ushered in a new era of wealth inequality via trickle down economics that we are still fighting to this day.
All this negative campaigning against Hillary when the primary is basically over is doing more damage to his own image and movement than anything else. His goal to use super delegates to win has, for many, shifted his image from an honest man who cares about America, to a sore loser who wants to win at all costs. Many will remember that first when recalling his bid for the White House, rather than his message.
We never learn from history, and so we shall always repeat it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The whole "my wife does my taxes and we don't have time to print a copy" thing makes him sound like just some unprepared private citizen trying to run for president. That coupled with his inability to answer how he'd accomplish his key issues in the NY interview.... I dunno about this guy. If he can't print a freakin tax return how can he handle the complicated ISIS war in Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan?
Posted by realmirage | Mon Apr 11, 2016, 11:06 PM (30 replies)
Bucky
(54,020 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Because if I had, it would be alerted on as refighting the primaries. It is my personal philosophy that every human being must be dedicated to growth and adjusting ones perspective when reality reveals that ones perspective needs growth.
In other words, we live and learn. Trumps win 2 years ago was an earthquake in the minds of all sane people. It forced me to reconsider my views. I thought Hillary could win the electoral college and was the strongest candidate. But my wishes about the electoral college and reality didnt align. So I took a second look at Sanders and realized we need him and his supporters, and that he has a lot of good ideas, and also that logic tells me he has a very good shot at winning the nomination in 2020 judging by the amount of support he had last time.
Hence, my current stance.
We always ridiculed George W for bragging that he never changes his mind about anything. Remember the whole flip flopper attacks on Kerry? Is that what you want to do to me now? Judge me for dedicating myself to changing my mind when it is right to do so?
My initial point stands. We need Sanders supporters. How are we going to win without them?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)the wisdom of attacking people we want to vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who it is. And you and I both know that younger voters are immature enough to stay home if we alienate them, their candidates, and their views. Its about doing the wise thing and recognizing we need to keep that big tent open. Thats all.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Instead, I think it's much more important that our "allies" stop attacking and denigrating and smearing Democrats and the Democratic party. Such things only serve to create divisions, distrust and suspicions. It weakens and tarnishes the party, it makes Democrats seems less attractive when a supposed "ally" is claiming that there's no difference between the parties or that Democrats are the "party of the one-percent" or that Democrats are "corrupt" or that Democrats are "feeble" or that Democrats are "ideologically bankrupt".
All I'm saying is that our party has an greater obligation to honesty and integrity and to the greater good. It has no obligation to make special accommodations for, or pander to, disappointed "immature" (your word) voters.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Divided movements fail
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Oh, please! GMAFB! Who is going to donate to, or support, or vote for Democrats when all they hear someone saying is that we're "no different" from Republicans, or that "Democrats are corrupt"?? That's the sort of thing that Nader and Stein say. It's indefensible and it's not helping.
There's NO amount of coddling that will change that type of voter. Fuck them. Fuck anyone who wants to hold the party hostage with those types of threats to not support the nominee because they believe it's "his turn". That's Susan Sarandon's message. FUCK HER TOO!
I'd rather see our Big-Tent party put more effort in being able to attract "center" and "center-right" voters. Those voters are much more plentiful than the ones you've been describing. They're also much more mature and reliable. Why alienate millions of centrist voters in the pursuit of a handful of 2020 malcontents who will "only vote for the Democratic nominee if it's Bernie".
realmirage
(2,117 posts)While I ask that people not attack our progressive allies. How about that?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)What's new and unfamiliar to many of them is that they're no longer getting special treatment and they're being challenged and rebutted when attacking and smearing the Democratic Party, and Democrats... or when they're blackmailing the party. Because we're not coddling them and pampering them, many are probably mistaking NORMAL treatment as being abusive. (Poor things. I'm sure in time they'll learn to cope.)
In the meantime, our party's Big Tent has flaps are wide open. These "immature" (your word) voters are certainly welcome to enter the tent. But I can assure you that this tent is TOO BIG to pull-up-stakes and move it over to them simply because they refuse to budge. Let them join US. We're not going to join them on their terms.
That's some serious Susan Sarandon shit right there. Fuck that! And FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!! She's worthless.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Unfortunately, the attacks on Sanders and progressives is non stop and terribly self defeating. Anyone who is here regularly can't avoid the hate posts against progressives and Sanders himself. People wait for every little reason to spring to action against him and progressives. But we can't afford to look back. We need to win in 2020 because there's a lot more at stake here than our feelings about the past. And those who remember me here from 2016 know that I walk that walk. No one wanted Hillary more than me.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)You know perfectly well that the Democrats and the Democratic party is not "feeble"... and Democrats are not "corrupt"... and Democrats are not "ideologically bankrupt"... and the Democratic party is not "the party of the one-percent"... and that the Democratic party doesn't tolerate anyone making excuses for racism or dismissing racist voting patterns... and that the Democratic party is NOT "the same as the GOP".
Laugh it up! But I can assure you that correcting the record, and stating the facts, and pushing-back against the lies and smears is NOT "attacking" anyone. All I'm trying to say is that as loyal Democrats we are duty-bound to hold his feet to the fire.
melman
(7,681 posts)he's bashed constantly.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)he's bashed constantly.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)It's an absurdity to imagine this one guy somehow is the only one who can express progressive ideas.
There are a whole lot of new young officeholders-to-be who might actually be a lot more effective and persuasive. If we care about progressive policies, we have a lot of younger people to support, who will have decades now to shape our country.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)sheshe2
(83,785 posts)They vote because many fought and were beaten, starved, force fed for that sacred right to have our voice heard and we will not be threatened or bullied for our freedom of choice in that voting booth.
Our door is always open.. the ones that do not wish to take part in their civic duty for the betterment of all, I find selfish and self centered and frankly to privileged to care about the people around them or our future.
Thekaspervote
(32,772 posts)Small-Axe
(359 posts)You nailed it.
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)The Parkland students also started an effective movement and galvanized young voters who came out in numbers and voting for Democrats in a primary no less. Perhaps the 'youth' you name as Bernie supporters should talk to them. You call them 'immature' perhaps they need to grow up.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)violetpastille
(1,483 posts)Also. Eric Swalwell.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)bluestarone
(16,970 posts)He (she) does seem to assume lots here!!
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)That's EXACTLY what's being suggested here. We've heard this tune before and now we have Trump.
Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)all others the same privilege. You current posts on BS are very critical of someone doesn't support your thinking. Obviously, in 2016, you felt very differently about Bernie. Give the rest of us that opportunity if we so choose.
I might note that during the 2016 primary stage, I was a full-fledged Bernie supporter. When he didn't win there, I happily campaigned and voted for Hillary. The Dems now have so much great young(ish) talent, that supporting a 79-year-old presidential candidate who is not a declared Democrat will not be practical for me in 2020.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)If people want to divide our Party by looking for every little opportunity to attack Sanders and progressives then those people must really want to lose to Trump. We need to start uniting now, not one month before the election.
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)A). Absolutely no one here is attacking progressives or the left within the party, and no one here is attacking Bernie. There has been some honest criticism of Bernie over his continued ham handed comments when it comes to issues like race, that is not an attack.
B). You seem to be equating all progressive thought with Bernie. That is not only overly simplistic, it's just wrong.
C). You're taking an extremely aggressive tone with folks here that is off putting and comes across intentionally belligerent. I don't think that's your intention, and you might have more support by taking a different approach.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)Do us all a favor and please post them. Any thread that attacks Sanders would be hidden, as would any thread attacking progressive democrats.
But I'm sure you're correct. I'm sure there's a plethora of such threads...must miss them since I'm "not on here often"
shanny
(6,709 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)to appeal to the majority of Democrats, and if anything his level of support has decreased since his post-primary petulance in 2016. He can run, but hes not going to be the nominee.
The Berniebabies need to learn that theyre the minority position in the party, and that withholding their vote is a losing proposition.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)BUSTED.....
Amazing how that works. Thanks for the history lesson here Totally Tunsie
Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Instead, I think it's much more important that our "allies" stop attacking and denigrating and smearing Democrats and the Democratic party. Such things only serve to create divisions, distrust and suspicions. It weakens and tarnishes the party, it makes Democrats seems less attractive when a supposed "ally" is claiming that there's no difference between the parties or that Democrats are the "party of the one-percent" or that Democrats are "corrupt" or that Democrats are "feeble" or that Democrats are "ideologically bankrupt".
I'm sorry to break it to you, but that's not the type of thing that an actual ally would say. Not one that wants to be taken seriously anyway. I think we can all agree that the bigger goal should be to make Democratic candidates, Democratic politicians, and the Democratic party the place that is the most attractive and the party that will garner loyalty and support.
I mean, seriously now... come on! Think about it! All I'm saying is this: Who is going to donate to, or support, or vote for Democrats when all they hear someone saying is that we're "no different" from Republicans, or that "Democrats are corrupt"?? That's the sort of thing that Nader and Stein say. It's indefensible and it's not helping.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)But I knew this would happen.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)the Democratic Party. How do we win without Sanders supporters?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)There's nothing unifying about his slams and smears against the Democratic party. Why do you think this type of destructive rhetoric is "unifying"?? What is "unifying" about the lies that claim Democrats and Republicans are the same?? What good purpose does that serve?
How does that grow the party. How do those types of slurs and smears and lies attract voters, volunteers, supporters?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)to win without progressives and all those young people I linked to in the OP?
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)You're talking in circles now. Repeating the same things over and over... talking points and threats that have been thoroughly debunked and refuted many times throughout this thread.
It's silly to think that the Democratic party is just going to hand Bernie the nomination because a handful of disgruntled starry-eyed "immature" supporters (your words) are going to withhold their vote because they believe it's "his turn".
The talking points you're advocating remind me a lot of something that Susan Sarandon says. (And, by the way... FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!)
Response to NurseJackie (Reply #160)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)That is the question. He will have to earn our votes.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders will not be the nominee. If sanders was the nominee, you can kiss the vote of African American women, latinos and Jews goodbye How can sanders win without the support of these groups?
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)I'm not worried. He won't be the nominee.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)This is exactly the kind of division that will help Trump in 2020.
brer cat
(24,573 posts)out of your user name; you are all mirage. You call gothmog "terribly divisive and defeatist" for a post based on FACTS while ignoring the divisiveness of your own blackmail OP which is based on nothing but your highly inflated vision of your own importance. Bernie may be your sun, but the real world and the Democratic Party doesn't and won't revolve around him or his supporters. Making this OP may have stroked your ego, but to the rest of us it only demonstrates your total lack of political acumen. The real base of the Democratic Party, our most loyal and reliable constituency, rejected Bernie in 2016 and will do so again if he runs in 2020. You are welcome to join our big tent and work within it, but no one is going to beg you to come in and take over.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)This is after sanders voters helped trump win in 2016. We are supposed to bow down to these threats and accept an unacceptable candidate just to make one small group of the base happy. I am not incline to give into such threats
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders is not acceptable to a great many real Democrats. sanders will not be the nominee for so long as a large number of real Democrats remember that sanders worked long and hard to help elect trump. If sanders runs, he will have to release his tax returns and we will see who was paid commissions for the TV ads ran in 2016. sanders will also have to agree to be a member of the party and to agree to run as a Democrat. If sanders runs, he will be grilled on the actions he took to help trump in 2016 and that grilling will be intense.
BTW, your progressive boycott may have given Florida to the GOP. It seems that sanders was correct about members of his base not wanting to vote for black candidates.
Link to tweet
I hope that these progressive do not make the same mistake yet again
Hekate
(90,712 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)mercuryblues
(14,532 posts)TeamPooka
(24,228 posts)Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Totally Tunsie
(10,885 posts)Your stance at that time was not helpful to Bernie's campaign.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)doesnt place themself in a position to be taken seriously or have their views considered in any significant way.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)It is actually like some are trying to extort others.
I dont like it but go ahead with it. See how far it gets you.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Whats so wrong about that?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Cant figure out that no matter fucking what they are to vote for the democrat than they can go screw.
There is no other discussion needed. Or coaxing or begging needed. They are useless extorters as far as I am concerned. And they deserve what they will bring upon us all.
I could give a shit less about their feelings. Their wants or their demands.
We need to fucking win and stop the fall into fascism. If that aint enough for them to vote against trumpass and republicans they are too fucking stupid or just damn selfish to be dealt with.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Would you want to be attacked because people knew youd vote lock step either way? And do you think young voters are mature enough not to stay home after theyve been attacked and ridiculed? See the link in my OP
boston bean
(36,221 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)is not what extortion is. Those are very different
boston bean
(36,221 posts)You need me, so do as I say or want and dont speak a word against me.
That is extortion. And I am fucking sick of it.
If they arent able or ready to just fucking vote democratic in 2020 after 4 years trumpass and republican rule, there is nothing I can do to persuade them. And I dont give a fuck about them, ok??
How can I be any more clear?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)asking people to unite is unwise how? Did you look at the link in my OP? You really think young voters will be attacked and alienated and then still go out and vote? Do you know what young people are like? Wisdom and reason must prevail among us.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)When they stop let me know.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Thekaspervote
(32,772 posts)Him to run....and make rash statements about how they Ill vote if.... that is the attack!
Bernie needs to address this himself!! Tell his supporters to get out and vote like your life depended on it,even when it isnt him.
We could shut this whole thing down DU....just stop responding to the onslaught on bernie posts!! Please just scroll right on by and read something else. Put your much needed energies to something positive.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)to notions of purity. Thats what petulant children do.
treestar
(82,383 posts)You're thinking it is some kind of club. It is not. It is a mechanism for fielding candidates and working together.
Why do people do what is against their own best interests over it? Even if you feel "attacked" or Bernie is "attacked" why sit there at home - who gets punished? You do too. Not the Republicans.
Coalitions are made in European countries where a party alone is too small. You have to work together with other people who are closer to you in positions on the issues. Bernie's supporters need to learn to be part of a coalition instead of claiming to be victims of the rest of the coalition because they feel they are somehow not taken seriously enough, attacked, marginalized, and all that. So are other parts of the coalition yet you don't see them saying they will not vote. It's nothing personal. It's that none of us entirely get all we want if we want to be part of a stable society.
You are coming from a position that sounds like you are outside the party and suggesting we could win with this group added but using that to be the only group that can do without having to compromise. There's no point. It is not in your interests. You got the Orange Disaster. How was that in your interests? How is that in any young person's interests? So they stayed home because they felt marginalized by some Democrats. Heck even if they insulted them plain out, they'd do better with the Democrats. Goodness, Donald of Orange certainly will marginalize them even more.
empedocles
(15,751 posts)Without much moving forward.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)telling him to go stuff it.
I think that's nice...
empedocles
(15,751 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)Minority position to have greater power instead of winning an argument?
That is called extortion. No one else does it
Do you wonder why there is so much antagonism against Sanders supporters?
I stopped listening to anything you said (thank you for ignore) when you stopped making an argument for a policy or a candidate and state THAT YOU ARE THE KEY DEMOGRAPHIC FOR VICTORY.
"My way or the Highway" is not a statement for unity, it's extortion.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)cut off your nose to spite your face. Remember that old saying? How do we win without Sanders supporters? If were constantly attacking them?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)you dont see attacks on Sanders and his supporters regularly? And Im not talking about defensive attacks. You cant miss them. They are constant.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)I see posts about him when he says things that let people know once again that he doesnt get racism. Something the actual base of the party experiences daily.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)to criticize the party fairly if it is making some error. Thats democracy and its smart to grow with the times. But I still dont see how hatefully attacking his supporters right now helps us win in 2020? Waiting for any perceived slip to pull out the knives?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Been down this road once already not doing it again.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)LincolnRossiter
(560 posts)expectations. They dont view themselves as a minority faction of the party that deserves a place at the table and the inclusion of some (not all) of their positions in the platform. They view themselves as kingmakers who can always threaten to take their ball and go home anytime they dont get their way. And their cult-like devotion to Bernie Sanders is itself a separate issue, but its equally dangerous to party unity.
You called out one thing accurately. Vulnerable as Trump is come 2020, we do run the very real risk of blowing it if we have a repeat of 2016. So when you and your progressive friends are talking about 2019 and 2020, promise to keep an open mind, be engaged, and respect the processeven if you dont like the result. We all have ideal candidates that wed love to see take the nomination in 2020 (I like Sherrod Brown and OMalley) but not one single mainline Dem I know is committed to my candidate or bust. So dont take that tack with Bernie.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)most dangerous thing idea. All you have to do is see my posts from 2016 to see that I put my money where my mouth is. I wanted Hillary more Han anything but now I am willing to vote for ANY person who gets the Democratic nomination. Thats my whole message. Unity. We dont have the luxury of doing anything else.
LincolnRossiter
(560 posts)who were Bernie or bust. They bought and propagated the idea, which the GOP crafted, that the primaries were rigged even though Clinton received almost 4 million more votes than Bernie (55%-43%). So they stayed home. And many defectedsome even to Trump.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)I think some of those never would have voted Hillary either way. Those that stayed home out of spite, well, I dont ever want to lower myself to their level.
LincolnRossiter
(560 posts)What are you talking about?
Bfd
(1,406 posts)So far I see no reason to further support anything he says. Especially with the racial statements he made the other day.
I don't know who he aligns with but that statement goes against everything the Democratic Party holds dear.
I don't know who he is after that massive tell.
He is not a Democrat.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)mcar
(42,334 posts)It's been a while since I've seen one of these.
stopbush
(24,396 posts)ask what you can do for the Democratic Party.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)brewens
(13,590 posts)If we get that kind of trust again, no telling how well we can do. We better show results if we do.
I attempted to make that point with some of my friends on FB with this link. I posted that after Trump promised help to farmers hurt by his tariffs. I referred to it as farm welfare, and the recipients as welfare farmers in my post. A couple of those farmers that turn up searching our local zip codes are on my friends list too!
I simply pointed out that these people have government programs that help them that they are quite happy about. We shouldn't ever let any of them tell us we can't have our tax dollars do good things for us too.
https://farm.ewg.org/top_recips.php?fips=00000&progcode=total®ionname=theUnitedStates
ismnotwasm
(41,987 posts)So what are you going to do then?
Mostly I stay out of this mess here, unless it has to do with sexism or racism, I get that you are angryso am I, 2016I will always be angry about.
Hillary is not running, and Bernie has no realistic pathway to the presidential nomination. I am speaking practically. I dont need to go into the reasons.
Yes, we are going to need people like you, like me, like everyone, particularly we need to court non-voters and deliver on our social justice promises to people of color. No ones vote should be taken for granted.
Response to realmirage (Original post)
Post removed
Bfd
(1,406 posts)"And no, the DNC rules do NOT prevent Sanders from getting the nomination. That Newsweek article debunked itself with a screenshot of the rules that do NOT say you need to be a registered Democrat to get it. "
Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers and DNC member, posted a photo on Twitter Friday of the rules change at the meeting in Providence, R.I.
Link to tweet
The Hill also wrote an article as to these DNC rules.
They didn't debunk it & Sanders does indeed have to commit to the Democratic Party.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)You join, and done.
Bfd
(1,406 posts)Bernie can't get near the Dem Presidential ticket.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Bfd
(1,406 posts)He will never be our Dem Pres candidate.
These are the new faces of the Dem Party.
Swalwell, Schiff, Booker, Harris, Klobuchar & a few other Democrats who are more than qualified & more than proud to be a part of the Democratic Party.
We have no reason to choose Him over one of these powerhouse players. Each one of them displayed their commitment & brilliance as they took on the Republicans in the televised hearings.
In the trenches where it counts. Not in front of a mic making blunderous racially divisive statements
These are the real progressive Democrats.
Its hard to say where Sanders fits anymore, following his recent statements on racial voter issues.
You debunked nothing.
Later. Off with family for the afternoon
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Read the rule
The new ballot access laws will force sanders to file his tax returns for five or ten years. I doubt that sanders will run. These ballot access laws will also apply is sanders tries to run as an indie
elleng
(130,959 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I saw what sanders did at the convention and it was clear that sanders did not do much to help Clinton
Here is a good example. The Clinton campaign vetted her delegates who were all members of the party. To be a delegate to the national convention all delegates signed an oath to support the nominee of the party. The sanders delegates ignored that oath and tried to hurt the party. For example, there was a planned stunt by the sanders delegates to boo Congressman John Lewis. The Clinton campaign warned all of her delegates about this stunt about 30 minutes in advance. According to my whip, sanders was asked to stop this stunt and sanders declined. In addition a large group of sanders delegates marched onto the Texas delegation breakfast and demanded that we condemn Clinton
Finally a group of sanders delegates yelled at my daughter and called her the c-Word because she would not try to get me to change my vote. Again sanders was asked to tell his delegates to behave during the convention and sanders refused
Many democrats do not believe that sanders really tried to help Clinton. Many democrats blame sanders for helping trump win Sanders clearly took a large number of actions that were designed to hurt the party and help trump.
I was at the convention and I know exactly how little sanders did to help defeat trump. I have a long memory and I will not forget what happened in Philadelphia
I do not think that sanders will run in 2020. He will have to release many years of full tax returns and agree to abide by the new DNC rule sanders is not the future of the party in my opinion
Demwolv
(88 posts)More consistently and in larger numbers than young people? Black women. You know who didnt support Bernie in 2016? BLACK. WOMEN. Black women gave us a senate seat in Alabama. Why dont we run an amazing black woman to show them that we want their vote?
African American women voters are a key part of the Democratic base
Alienating their vote is not the way when they consistently have our backs. Its about damn time to give them their voice they so dutifully deserve. 19 African American women won judgeships in Texas this year. Time to have Kamala Harris on the ticket.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Senator Booker gave a great speech at the Texas Democratic fundraiser back in September. He is amazing. Senator Harris is a lawyer's lawyer. I love the way she cross examined Kavanaugh.
I love Booker too. I worry that theyll trap him into the angry black man trope because hes so wonderfully passionate. The republicans have a good way of painting a minority candidate as a stereotype (ie Hillary was shrill). I dont think anyone would fall for it this time though!
BumRushDaShow
(129,067 posts)(Letitia James - New York state Attorney General-elect)
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)I am amused that the OP thinks that the party will chose to support a candidate that is strongly disliked by this group
realmirage
(2,117 posts)of people attacking progressives and Sanders supporters? You think we can win without them? You think any candidate can win without them?
Demwolv
(88 posts)The midterms proved that progressives and young people will come out to vote for candidates that arent progressive. Very few progressive candidates won, which would point to the fact that most people would rather vote establishment or moderate.
My point is, why would you alienate the strongest part of your base to pander to a base that holds the party hostage and is finicky with their votes anyway? Wouldnt you rather find a candidate that represents the strongest part of your base and work from there?
dansolo
(5,376 posts)Is not truly a progressive. This selfish attitude is the opposite of being progressive, because you are in effect supporting the other side.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)We all know about AOC, but how many others? I'd like to measure the electoral strength of this group of "progressives" you're so obsessed with.
elocs
(22,581 posts)That's it.
Is anyone on the Left sad when a Republican chooses not to vote or votes for a 3rd party candidate? Of course not.
Because we understand that person is ultimately helping the Democratic candidate.
Well Republicans celebrate when voters on the Left do the same thing because they know it helps their candidate to win.
A Democratic big tent means you cannot become entrenched in a 'my candidate or else' attitude. In the general election you support and vote for the Democratic candidate because doing otherwise only helps the Republican. This is too important for pouting and claiming if you don't get your way you're going to quit and take your ball home.
Our big tent needs to also be welcoming of those who have always considered themselves to be Democrats but who are less Liberal than we are. No more putting them down by calling them 'DINOs' or Republican Lite and really inviting them to leave.
In doing so we only hurt our party and our cause. And every Democrat elected, even a conservative one, counts towards the Democrats controlling that legislative body along with its power and agenda.
If those on the Left could have had this attitude and philosophy, Trump may well have never been elected.
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)If it said "We're" instead of "You're" that would do wonders to make me parse it as a Democrat saying something.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Thats the whole point
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)So what you're saying is that Bernie2020 supporters are the only progressives, eh?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)The opposite in fact.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)reserve that moniker for themselves. You can be progressive and not be a Sanders fan. You should stop making unfounded, untrue accusations against DUer's
Pope George Ringo II
(1,896 posts)As an innocent bystander for much of the last few years, I'm getting tired of always taking fire from the same side. Sanders' supporters declared me his enemy long before it ever occurred to me to make it so. The thought has now occurred to me. That doesn't happen when you aim.
Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)The problem is too on the left apply a purity test before voting.
Wintryjade
(814 posts)this mess? A small group of potential voters holding the nation as hostage because they want their way? Are we really going to start this right after finally, just getting our head above water to breathe?
I have watched the court stack Republican. In 2016, I would speak out about the court being only one of many very important, life threatening reasons to go out and vote. And I would have people not even consider giving up their tantrum for the power of the court. Here we sit with a rw court and we will see how well that serves us.
But now, a couple days after winning one branch, we have a little power to do some things, you are saying Bernie or you do not get a segment of vote?
Why would we look upon that kind of thinking as a model of leader mentality? Why would we be encourage to support, ever support, such a manipulative grab for power? Anyone trying to gain a win thru blackmail does not have the integrity to do what this nation is in dire need of.
It is like the ten progressives that say if they do not get a new House Speaker, they will not support Pelosi and what she is pushing. Such pettiness. They are there to support ME, you, the Democratic Party to follow out on the progressive policies we liberals put out, and to help the nation, help all us, the people. They do not get to throw a tantrum and tell us they refuse to do what they were elected to do, because they did not get their way. That is exactly the behavior that will keep people out of leadership position.
Maybe I read this post wrong. I heard it enough in 2016 and was appalled. Are we really starting it again, 11/10 2018, just four days after midterms?
A small group of potential voters holding the nation as hostage because they want their way?
If we cave to this we are no better than the right caving to the tea party and look where their party is now.
Wintryjade
(814 posts)her own party, I watched HRC embrace her and welcome her in, after AOC won. Gracious every step of the way. Supported AOC and brought her into her onward program with like nine other women, with no bitterness or ranker. Just the want to help young Democrats in the transition and have Democrats as a winner.
That is my Democratic party and that is the type of leader I admire.
HRC made me pause in my assessment of AOC and now I am much more patient with her. Lol. Thank you HRC.
Demwolv
(88 posts)Dont get me wrong, Hillary has her flaws, but her patience and willingness to put her party above herself and embrace and support anyone that wants to run as a dem is something we all could aspire to have.
Wintryjade
(814 posts)about our people. I have been considering and observing this for a couple years now.
I have stopped this, is all I am saying. I am so damn tired of having to bring up HRC flaws in order to say, she has few. Then comparatively? She is a Saint. Lol. I boldly go into bragging without humbleness first.
This is why I love politics. It allows us to always be growing. The true progressive. And I have been doing it consciously for at least four decades now. My old hippy self, came home to this mama.
Woman continually have to justify their existence. Well, old women, anyway. Maybe all women. But, I do not think all people are expected to.
I digress.
I agree with you. Thank you for the exploration in thought. Always a fun one for me.
Demwolv
(88 posts)And I didnt mean it as a way to put her down, but I wont sit her and 100% praise a woman who hasnt been very woman friendly either.
I love Hillary. Grew up idolizing her but we have to hold people accountable as much as we can praise them. No person is perfect and its okay to point those things out.
Obama has his flaws too. Equal opportunity to grow and learn from the flaws of those we hold up on pedestals.
Wintryjade
(814 posts)namahage
(1,157 posts)Assuming you're speaking of Hillary, how specifically has she not been "woman-friendly"?
You know, besides:
As first lady of the United States, Hillary led the U.S. delegation to the U.N. Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, where she proclaimed that womens rights are human rights. She also advocated for the Family and Medical Leave Act, worked to increase funding for child care, and helped start the National Campaign to End Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy.
As senator from New York, Hillary championed access to emergency contraception and voted in favor of strengthening a womans right to make her own health decisions. She also championed the Paycheck Fairness Act and co-sponsored the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act. She fought for legislation to guarantee paid sick leave and paid parental leave for all federal employees.
As secretary of state, Hillary made womens rights a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Do you think its wise to alienate energized young progressives? Do you know how fickle alienated young voters can be on Election Day?
Wintryjade
(814 posts)But I would like for people to consider how infantile these tantrums are and how unproductive they are. As adults, the parent does not cave to the tantrum. But if that were to happen, and it isn't, the youth are just that fickle to not show up to vote. Yes, I know how "fickle" a section of youth is. There is also a very solid, pragmatic youth out there fighting for our liberal and progressive cause, and voting, canvassing, supporting and speaking out for our Democratic establishment. They are educating themselves about the system, and becoming a part of it. It is a very exciting time for Democrats and a very exciting time for our young Democrats. I am excited and jazzed with what I see.
Greywing
(1,124 posts)Demwolv
(88 posts)To alienate black women who did not support Bernie in 2016 and are our most consistent voting block. Young voters are going to be fickle but at the end of the day, we saw young voters come out in record numbers this year with candidates who largely werent as far left a Bernie.
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)comment that are pretty awful the last couple days about racism. I won't vote for him in a primary and hope he doesn't run. I will of course vote for anyone in a general including Sen. Sanders although I would be surprised if he made it that far.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Attacking our allies regularly is wise how? Is that really the strategy? You think young people/young progressives will have their candidates and ideas shit on and then not stay home on election night? Do you know what young people are like?
Wintryjade
(814 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)See the difference?
Wintryjade
(814 posts)Now it is being demanded that they will threaten not to vote if they do not get their way AND we are not allowed to call it out? So laughing. That is funny, isn't it.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)what you seem to be thinking it says.
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)It will be a fight, as it should be.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Squinch
(50,954 posts)you are doing it in the name of someone who cannot be our nominee in 2020. And you know that.
We both know he's not going to join the Democratic Party, and we both know he's not going to let us see what it is in those tax returns that he is so reluctant to show us.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Squinch
(50,954 posts)blueinredohio
(6,797 posts)Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)Democratic Socialist every bit as much as they did Hillary. And people of color are an important part of the Democratic coalition...I don't know if he could excite that important base given his recent very unfortunate comments. But the deal breaker for me in terms of the primary is that he is not a Democrat. He could have remained a Democrat after his recent election or after 16 but chose not to.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)election.
Response to NurseJackie (Reply #186)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Bettie
(16,110 posts)I personally think we need to move more toward the left overall. That's a point of agreement.
I think Sen. Sanders did open some avenues of discussion that were all but closed before the last election. That's a point of agreement.
We have moved to the left fairly significantly already overall as a party.
I don't think he should run for President again.
I don't think Clinton should run again either.
Both can and should use their voices (if they choose to) to help where they are needed.
We have room enough for everyone, but don't let being sad about Sanders blind you to the simple fact that we are fighting for our country in a very real way. Sitting out an election because you didn't get the candidate you wanted is foolish in normal times, at this point in history? It is insane.
Those young people? They need to vote. THEIR FUTURE is at risk. We're at a crisis point here so there is no excuse for refusing to vote for Democrats because people are mean to Sen. Sanders or aren't perfect in every way.
That said, people could stand to be less vitriolic about him, because it isn't necessary to turn any mention of him into an "I hate Bernie Sanders" thread.
We know, some people love him, some hate him. Everyone is aware by now who loves and who hates him.
He's right sometimes, he's wrong sometimes. He's human.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)This is exactly the approach to victory in 2020 we need.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)Glad to see no one is falling for this crap any more.
Thanks for showing me that!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Squinch
(50,954 posts)We have bigger fish to fry.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)namahage
(1,157 posts)the 3.77 million vote loss, of course.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)It seems a lot of people havent yet realized we need progressives. And since most of them have been driven out of here, it would be interesting to hear your master plan to win without Sanders massive number of voters, especially those in the link I provided in the OP.
But the ugliness in your reply reveals all anyone would need to know about you.
Squinch
(50,954 posts)this senseless bullshit, and feel the need to call it out when they see it. And that's a good thing.
To turn your words back to you, the ugliness and petulance and ridiculousness in your post reveals all anyone would need to know about you, but we already knew it because of your previous ugly, petulant and ridiculous posts.
And about those Sanders voters? Most of them aren't assholes. Most will vote for the Democrat who wins the Democratic primary. The way Sanders didn't.
Sad to see people who can't get over a loss.
Paladin
(28,262 posts)murielm99
(30,745 posts)are the AA's. I have been here a long time and miss their voices.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)LBM20
(1,580 posts)Bulloch of Montana.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Dont know much about the one you mentioned. Ill have to look him up
Hekate
(90,712 posts)All Democrats. All young. All qualified.
Did I mention they are Democrats? They are.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Captain Stern
(2,201 posts)Unfortunately, some of you didn't show up.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)Sander's name so I don't have to read them...no interest in a run by him...if he made it to the general,we would lose...can't carry the Democratic coalition in my opinion...sure I would vote for him, but many might not. FYI...my millennials (three) dislike Sen. Sanders and feel he has some blame for our 16 loss. They won't vote for him in a primary.
MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)voted for Trump in 2016 because their undies were in a bunch after the primary. They fucked this country because they were proving some kind of lame point. Bernie will not be and should not be our nominee in 2020. We have an embarrassment of riches in actual Democratic candidates to choose from. Can Bernie have a seat at the platform development table? Yes. Does he have much to contribute to the conversation? Absolutely. But, hes not a Democrat and should not be our nominee.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Wintryjade
(814 posts)Good stuff. Thanks.
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)In the Portland area ca. 2016 it was certainly not safe to assume that youngish and tattoos and Bernie = Democrat.
MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)I live in the inland northwest and in a college town...lots of the students supported Bernie in the primary. I wonder how many of those did vote for tRump or didnt vote at all because their guy didnt win. I am not understanding this Bernie loyalty pledge thats being asked of us at this time....that somehow he is owed something.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)progressives and Sanders massive number of supporters? Attacking them constantly? That's the strategy? And until someone shows me their crystal ball that proves otherwise, reality and history show that Sanders is the strongest candidate for the nomination considering the amount of support he got last time. That's reality.
MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)Reality is that it is very disappointing when your candidate doesnt win and it is wrong to stay home and refuse to vote because youre mad. Reality is that voting for a malignant narcissist that has damaged this country beyond belief because youre guy didnt win is selfish and immature.
My plan is to vote for the Democratic nominee for president in 2020 whomever that may be. If Bernie supporters cant see clear to do the same then theyre as good as red hats and they dont belong on DU.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)one month before the election. I don't see why that's controversial at all. And I agree that anyone who stayed home last time because of butthurt is a traitor and I think they see now what a terrible mistake that was. I was not one of those.
MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)about Bernie goes off the rails on DU. For that very reason it seems unlikely that we will all join hands and unite in full and total support for Bernie Sanders.
emulatorloo
(44,131 posts)or young voters or progressivism. Bernie is but one politician, hes not the only progressive out there.
BTW, I always support who I want in the primary, and then GOTV for the eventual nominee. It isnt rocket science.
Rizen
(708 posts)hopefully Sanders supporters will all support the Democrat who wins the primary.
calimary
(81,304 posts)Thats the only ticket that can win, if voters want to be realistic and practical in 2020. Splintering off does no good at all - for any of us, ESPECIALLY our more progressive brothers and sisters. It may not be utter perfection, but the Dems will still get them a LOT closer to their objectives than that other team will.
redstatebluegirl
(12,265 posts)Nobody gets everything they want, ever, but on a bad day the democratic party does more for America than the republicans do. They offer much more to young people, middle income people, old people virtually everyone. Even the rich do better under Democrats because the middle class has money to spend with their businesses.
The Bernie or bust faction that tried to drag the party so far to the left that we could not win make me nuts. How they behaved at the National Convention was disgraceful. Now they are trying to divide our proud party that just won a huge election.
If that is how you feel take your toys and go home and find out what it is like to have a fascist government including a supreme court that will last for 40 years.
Sanders could never have made it through the vetting the comes with a full blown national campaign, not primaries. They would have chewed him up and spit him out. Plus he will never show his tax returns because his followers might not like what they see.
We do have a big tent but we don't need people who want to burn it to the ground.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)The Sanders folks are way too militant... fail to recognize material weaknesses in his candidacy.
Others seem hell bent on marginalizing his supporters by continually telling him to ride off in to the sunset.
This circular firing squad crap can mean election night defeat.
Knock it the hell off.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Do you agree with your fellow sanders supporters and JPR types that Congressman John Lewis deserved to be booed at the National Convention and the sanders was correct in not taking any steps to block this stunt? https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)In these stressful times, a good lulz a day keeps the grey hairs away.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Andy823
(11,495 posts)More and more "divide and conquer" tactics are going to be used to cause divisions on DU. It isn't going to get any better, probably a lot worse, but you know the old saying "trolls got troll"!
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Vote your conscience, with an eye on outcomes. If your favorite doesn't prevail and become the nominee, get over it and vote for the better of the two candidates who can win.
Or don't. But don't threaten us. That's just silly.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Democrats because we need them is not a threat. Its common sense.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)for one or another candidate for President. Personally, I do not, yet. I am waiting to see who rises to the top.
There is one thing I can tell you, though, absolutely. In November of 2020, if I am still alive, I will vote for the Democratic nominee, just as I have done every election since 1968. If my favorite does not win during the primaries, I will vote for and work for the election of our party's nominee, who ever it is.
I will threaten nobody. I will attack nobody. I will support my favorite in the primaries and vote for the nominee. I am a Democrat.
I saw your 2016 attack on Bernie Sanders in this thread. I was not a supporter, but I never attacked him, nor said I would not vote for him if he became the nominee. I would not do that.
Here's my advice: Get over yourself.
obamanut2012
(26,080 posts)They are lolz -- I read them for my daily pity laugh.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... as he is at great pains to make clear.
MrsCoffee
(5,803 posts)Why doesn't Bernie or his supporters get that? For some reason, when Bernie does it, he is the most beloved politician on the face of the planet.
For all your big tent talk you sure seem to want to push anyone out who doesn't conform to your idea of progressive.
Sorry charlie. That's not how the Democratic Party works.
And no one here is trashing progressive Democrats. Bernie is not being "bashed" and he is not a Democrat. His feet are being held to the fire this time. He will be vetted if he decides to run again. Deal with it.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Inviting "progressives" into our Big Tent, rather taking the tent to them on the other side of the road is not "attacking progressives." It's common sense.
The Democratic party is under no obligation to accommodate a handful of youthful "progressive" voters (who may, or may-not vote). Why move the tent and risk losing MORE than we could gain? Better to stay put and let them come to us. It's common sense.
Telling "progressives" to take a hike whenever they threaten to blackmail the party by withholding their vote is not an attack. It's common sense.
These Sarandonesque tactics are little more than having a temper tantrum. And... by the way... let me just say: FUCK SUSAN SARANDON!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)just wanted to say, I supported Bernie in the primary and Hillary for the general. I think we need a presidential candidate under the age of 60. It would be wonderful if Bernie would campaign for another candidate. imo
Glamrock
(11,802 posts)He campaigned for Gillum Florida, Whitmer in MI...
Fuck it heres what he had going on in October supporting Democratic Party candidates.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/10/11/bernie-sanders-rallies-midterms/1599966002/
NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)We've heard this boring tune before. Again and again.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)Here's another bump. Just for you. Glad to have made you happy.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)MyNameGoesHere
(7,638 posts)Just fucking vote and be done with it ok?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)The beauty of liberalism is there is only an us and not a we and them.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)And toxic in both its right-wing and left-wing variants.
Populism is dependent on creating scapegoats and boogeymen to blame for all "the people's" problems and in fomenting anger and fear.
Whipping up anger is the stuff of demagogues. Anger and rage drives out rationality.
Liberalism is dependent on embracing rationality and reason.
Populism and liberalism are not compatable.
nini
(16,672 posts)Odd they don't seem to think they have to do the same . What really burns my ass is they act like they invented these progressive ideas and ways. yea... right. I am very far left but I am also pragmatic and know thing won't swing 180 degrees in one election. It sucks, but it's reality.
There are so many things at play right to save our republic it's scary. The fact many 'progressives' think they have to have their butts kissed to do the right thing makes me want to spit bullets. They enjoy the drama and self righteousness too much I guess. I don't.. I want my country to return to some kind of democracy and respect. I want my grandson to grow up without fear.
LincolnRossiter
(560 posts)Bernie is pretty far left of me, but that's not my problem with him or his movement. There's room in the Democratic party for disagreement and compromise. And, ironically, as I've become more and more financially successful, I've been moving left on economic issues for years (was always pretty liberal on social issues) so I'll probably continue evolving in that direction. As you said, however, it's vital that we all recognize that in a 50/50 country that's essentially centre-right, we can't bulldoze every idea that we like through in one cycle. We have to persuade, cajole, argue, move the needle, and fundamentally beat back this idea that government can do no good--which Reagan and his acolytes have successfully inculcated a whole generation of people.
If Bernie and his people honestly choose "my way or the highway" in the face of literal White Nationalism and fascism, we need to start looking for a replacement bloc of voters. These suburban Republican women are looking pretty promising this cycle.
lapucelle
(18,268 posts)In some cases it's not difficult at all to tell friend from foe.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)who is in the Dem party and who isnt?
We can register as a Democrat or not. So can every other voting age citizen. We have nothing to say or do about it.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)For six months before the 2016 general election, the only thing our most vociferous DUers had to say to Bernie supporters was "fuck you - we don't need your votes to win."
Those same people spent the next two years after the election blaming the people they said they didnt need for their loss.
Now, we're back to "fuck you, we don't need your votes to win."
Bottom line is that the group of posters who now dominate this board simply won't stop flinging poo at others until the "big tent" of the Democratic Party is reduced to spanning that vast ideological space between Heidi Heitkamp and Joe Manchin.
Well said. You are 100% right.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)Whether he/she's actually had a change of heart, or was just simply bored, I'm not convinced the post was meant to "unite".
nini
(16,672 posts)The voters in question are a waste of time if the reality of what we're up against isn't as important as getting their way. We don't have time for the drama.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Is that your point?
nini
(16,672 posts)It's the same old song and dance every election cycle. We waste way too much effort on them when they will end up with the likes of Stein anyway.
If those voters want to achieve anything they will see the democrats are the party to get it done. This notion that democrats aren't pure enough for them is bull. They like drama and attention. They're not going to change.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We will learn, the hard way if we have to, that without unity were all fucked
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Because the party is incapable of listening.
melman
(7,681 posts)Did someone say that?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)which is full of members of the Democratic party and others who are capable of listening.
Who would they be? These others you speak of.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)melman
(7,681 posts)As you know.
Seems like the use of a word like 'others' is meant to convey something. There's an insinuation there.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and understand the importance of electing more Democrats.
'Inclusive' like threads about who doesn't belong? Inclusive like that?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)I trust their judgment on Bernie
Might want to study up on the history of progressives selling African Americans out. Start with Woodrow Wilson. Go to Huey Long. Then read why Social Security originality omitted most black folks.
Leftist who defend people voting against blacks because of their color, been there done that. Not going back.
We will not be extorted for your vote. If you cant vote democratic because we are not pure enough for you then go vote for trump. Because that is the way I read your OP threat.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)So alienating progressives is a really bad idea. Dems cant win without them
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Are members of the Democratic Party, spare me the hyperbole about them not voting for us.
You are pretty much talking about the green types and the JPR nuts. We are better off without them.
Take your empty threats somewhere else.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)It had a link in it about young voters. Do you know what young voters are like? You think attacking allies regularly is smart? You think young people wont stay hone if people attack their them, their candidates, their ideas?
You think attacking progressives in ge real is smart?
Greywing
(1,124 posts)JHan
(10,173 posts)showing a stunning ignorance about racism, should not be critiqued and they continue to make excuses for it... In other words, He should never be criticized else they'll pack up their ball and go home. It's really no different to the recalcitrant shit we saw in 2016, just a new flavor.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)than Bernie supporters are with Hillary. And there were 4 million more Hillary supporters.
There's no reason young people can't get excited by a new candidate -- not Bernie or Hillary. Look how they reacted to the runs of O'Rourke, Gillum, and Abrams.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)We all need to unite. Now. Not one month before the election when all the damage is done.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)There's lots of Progressives in the party, we don't need to do Bernie worship to be progressive. And that "enormous" base of support? Yes, it's never been that and has shrunk greatly since the primary of 2016. He's earned that animosity. Posts like this don't help his case.
Besides, this is Democratic underground, where we support Democrats.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)to be united and stop attacking each other? Im not sure how dividing ourselves is at all a smart strategy.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders can no longer pull his silly stunt of running for the nomination without formerly joining the party and agreeing to run as a Democrat
Link to tweet
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... by actually uniting with us.
He won't do that. He doesn't want to. He's made that abundantly clear.
Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.
And if your loyalty is to a specific man, instead of his principals, then I'm not sure how reliable you'd ever be any way. There are los of progressives in the Democratic party. We don't need a curmudgeonly gadfly who constantly pokes us in the eye. But he's welcome if he ever decides he wants to commit , instead of standing over there telling us all the ways we are wrong.
bobGandolf
(871 posts)Bernie Sanders is also a vital part. The key in my mind is COMPROMISE within the Dem. Party. Progressives and conservative Democrats have hurt the party with their all our way mentality. That needs to stop, or 2020 will see us go down in defeat.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)what is needed to win elections
murielm99
(30,745 posts)Would hate to see anything happen to it.
Threats? Seriously?
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)If we do not nominate a candidate who is totally unacceptable to the base of the party, then this group will be happy to work to re-elect trump. This element of the base is the reason why trump won in 2016 and may be the reason why Gillium lost Florida in 2018
Link to tweet
The sad premise of the OP is that we have to given into blackmail or risk re-electing trump.
bobGandolf
(871 posts)...any Democrat unwilling to compromise within their own party, leading to a loss to Republicans. Having a mindset so stubborn when negotiating with other Dems. that the opposition ends up winning has no place in our party.
Building blocks of victories into wins over time beats losing quickly. Progressive, and more conservative, Democrats need to remember that.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)We have a House Majority come January 3rd and we have to get out of our OWN WAY for the next 7 to 8 months.
That puts me past the NJ Primaries for the elections in November next year. Undoing the Gerry Mandered NJ is critical - so my Assembly and State Senate elections are mission critical.
We also need to see what happens in Florida. If Gillum is victorious - and we get their electoral votes for the Popular Vote Movement (we only need 98 more votes) . . .
The map to the Presidency changes dramatically. We could also be looking at a true multi party system for Presidential Politics.
Wait - no need to do anything but celebrate the ass whooping the GOP got in 2018.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Due to GOTV and support of Democratic Party Campaigns . . .
Don't be blinded by people's job titles or business world experience.
Our Governor made his money at Goldman Sachs.
You couldn't find a more progressive liberal than the Bankster Corporate Plutocrat Oligarch - than Phil Murphy in Trenton.We
I hope the people of Florida and Georgia get to have someone like Phil too.
ananda
(28,865 posts)And I'm old.
AkFemDem
(1,826 posts)Women and people of color don't want another old white man at the top of the ticket. Sanders is an important voice in our democracy and I hope he continues to work to seat progressive candidates. But no, he will not be the nominee in 2020 and no he won't win as such.
still_one
(92,216 posts)people, and that isnt going to change, but is the reason why the Democratic Party needs to choose a new face
Hillary made it clear she has no intention to run again. Sanders on the other hand has not, but the fact remains to f he decides to run he wont get the nomination for the divisionary nature he brings
As for the OPs implied Democrats better give us a reason to vote or else, that immature crap was played by some in 2016, and yes, those who had that mindset contributed to what we have today.
Thanks to that we lost 3 SC no minations, so the bullshit that the Democrats didnt give THOSE a reason to vote Democratic is bullshit. If nothing no else the SC was reason enough
No Sanders, no Hillary in 2020, and no all or nothing bullshit.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)liberal N proud
(60,335 posts)dameatball
(7,398 posts)dhol82
(9,353 posts)underpants
(182,826 posts)Just saying.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)Needz moar jokes.
A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)underpants
(182,826 posts)A true classic
Hekate
(90,712 posts)As long as certain DUers insist that catering to one elderly Independent and his core believers is the only path to success for the Democratic Party, I think it is important to remind people that in fact we have dozens of Democratic Senators and Congresspeople working hard for us and speaking out every day.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)or you (Sanders' supporters) won't vote for the Democratic candidate in the General? Sanders definitely won't win the primary. That's a pipe dream.
namahage
(1,157 posts)...rather than your previous attempt to tell people not happy with Bernie to GTFO of DU should he win the primary.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)...off the top of my head -- all of them young, diverse, well qualified, and actual members of the Party. Women, men, Latino, white, black, Asian, veteran, disabled...
But the OP can think of only one: an elderly white male with a one-size-fits-all plan, who yells a lot, and is not a Democrat..
Really odd.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)get attacked regularly. Thats a fact. Thats the point. Next.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)sheshe2
(83,785 posts)betsuni
(25,537 posts)Discussing what a politician says and does helps them improve their campaign and policies for the next election, especially when a candidate may be seen as flawed or not transparent or unlikeable or not trusted or not caring about a certain section of the population, that sort of thing. Voters have to be given a reason for their vote. Words are the action of politics. Optics are important. I learned these things right here on DU! Surely Sanders and his supporters appreciate the constructive criticism if he runs again.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)regularly that would just be holding her feet to the fire too?
See how this works?
Unity or failure.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)get attacked regularly.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)the cause should gtfo and join the nazican party
brooklynite
(94,589 posts)Afromania
(2,768 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:44 AM - Edit history (2)
Under no circumstances should anybody look at the political landscape in this country and think that anything other than voting for a Democrat is the choice at this point. It doesn't matter who the fuck wins from the non insane side of things, that is who anybody with a semblance of sanity needs to be voting for.
No RATIONAL adult should need to be convinced that voting for almost any Republican isn't an exercise in insanity at this point. Similarly it's insane to go tipping windmills for 3rd party candidates to make a point while things are clearly sliding towards the abyss. We vote the way we vote in the primary and when x candidate loses we need to put support behind the winner, that's it.
You're talking about a "big tent" while simultaneously making veiled threats. Why do you, or any other, left leaning voter need convincing or hand holding to cast a vote for the left candidate? Is the alternative of continued republican rule that benign that it can be chanced again?
Being a Bernie backer should not put you into some rarefied air that requires capitulation from the Democratic party in order to garner your vote for the non insane candidate. I backed Bernie initially for all the reasons other Bernie backers did. He lost and then refused to gracefully do as you are suggesting. Bernie had to be dragged off the stage kicking and screaming and far too many of his supporters did similarly.
His supporters had a chance to defeat the cancerous movement threatening Democracy in 2016. Some of us made the right choice and immediately backed Hillary while others decided to make the wrong one, and we have 2 more years left due on that bill.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)the veiled threats remark. Its not a threat, but merely common sense to state that attacking people that you want to vote for Democrats is not very smart.
And the link in the OP is about young voters. Anyone who knows young voters knows that you cant attack them and their causes and their candidates and then expect them to all rush out and vote for your candidate. In the real world, people do let their feelings get the better of them. We have to be aware of reality and unify now.
That shouldnt be controversial or difficult to understand.
Hekate
(90,712 posts)Afromania
(2,768 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2018, 11:32 AM - Edit history (2)
Sanders attitude and actions following his loss caused this schism. When he didn't step back when he should have it pushed the Democratic primary into overtime instead of reunifying the party. Instead he acted like a spoiled baby and enough of his followers went along with the narrative.
If he won the Democratic primary it is highly likely Democratic voters would have supported him fully without the dissension. Being the professional she is - Hillary would have immediately shut it down and supported him.
I'd like to know why you don't think "you need voters like me" isn't a veiled threat when the precedent has already been set for some Bernie voters to not vote for, what was clearly, the only sane choice? Or shit, even worse to vote for a man that is beyond insane. What kind of mature adult worth a damn would go from Bernie to trump? Is that somebody you really think anybody should be counting on for any sort of consistent support?
All I'm hearing is "be nice to us or we won't do the right thing". The stability of the country is hanging in the balance, perhaps the entire world, and here we are already starting up with the Bernie nonsense again. His supporters are acting if a vote for anything but the winner of the Democratic primary is anything but a real world vote for the republicans.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Stonepounder
(4,033 posts)Two years ago, in the Primaries I was proud to cast my vote for Bernie Sanders. However, he didn't become the candidate, Hillary did. And I worked my butt off to get Hillary elected, even though I pretty much figured that KY wouldn't go her way. But I worked for her as hard as I could. That's the whole idea of a primary. The members of the party get to decide. And just because their favorite doesn't win the primary doesn't in any way, shape, or form mean that they just throw up their hands and go vote for the other party. (Unless you nominate someone like the Orange Shipgibbon currently squatting in the White House!)
realmirage
(2,117 posts)precious feelings and unify now. Or we can tear each other apart and lose. Strange that a lot of people seem to be leaning toward the latter.
Not a good omen.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)precious feelings and unify now.
Smart, mature and rational Democrats live in the REAL WORLD... not Opposite World. That's a good omen!
realmirage
(2,117 posts)If you have a more constructive point to make that doesnt try to smear progressives Ill gladly respond.
Have a good day!
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Gothmog
(145,291 posts)If the Democratic party does not nominate a candidate who is clearly unacceptable to the vast majority of the party, then a small segment that supports this candidate will work to re-elect trump. These are the same voters who helped elect trump in 2016 and now want four more years of trump unless they get their way.
Threats will not work with the party.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)And that's all I had to say! Have a nice day, Gothmog!
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Too much baggage from the get go.
Response to realmirage (Original post)
Mosby This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)Voters said no. Before you can win the Presidency, you need to win the primaries. Sanders was given that chance and was rejected. Hillary won more states and more pledged delegates that Sanders. But that's the past. How about we give other people a chance in 2020? We can unite around other candidates.
If Sanders means the country good, he'll throw his support behind Democratic candidates. It's not about him or his cherry picked candidates, it's about getting Democrats elected for the good of this country. If he or his supporters cannot see that, then they have learnt nothing from 2016 and Putin/Trump should send them thanks.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)The only focus is on 2020. Attacking progressive allies is a recipe for failure. Sanders has many supporters. Many. There are A LOT of progressives. We need them. That's the point. That should be basic common sense to any person.
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)There are numerous replies that mentioned the primaries.
In case you didn't get the point- 2020 should not be 2016 redo. Sanders had his chance then and didn't even make it through the primaries. Time to give others a chance.
And they need the rest of us.
It seems like you're saying that if we say no to Sanders, his supporters will not vote for whichever Democrat is our nominee.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)that attacking progressive allies is really stupid and will only help trump. Not attacking your allies seems like one of those things thats so obvious that if it needs to be explained, well...
Sunsky
(1,737 posts)My allies don't sulk, whine and destroy the party if their cheery-picked candidates aren't successful. I know many progressives who will vote and did vote for the Democratic party's candidates, even those who weren't their first choice. Those are allies. I consider myself a Democrat and I have voted for: progressives, centrist etc (whatever label is affixed to the Democratic candidate).
I am definitely not attacking allies. Allies don't hold their votes as ransom and ignore the very present danger we're in. Time for unity and for an end this "us vs them" bs mentality. We are a part of the same team.
Response to realmirage (Original post)
Post removed
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)who need people like me.
These opposite world campaigns are getting really old.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)The people who want to attack the other people in our big tent must really think that we can win by dividing ourselves. That doesn't seem logical but apparently a lot of people seem to think it is.
R B Garr
(16,954 posts)people like me. Its right there in the title. Thats an admission right there that there are double standards.
betsuni
(25,537 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)Seems like there's a scene or a skit for every occasion!
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts): )
For those who want to win
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)It was specifically and solely a Eyeroll like so.... with a couple of .
Tootles!
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)LexVegas
(6,067 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)So those who want to win can see it
: )
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)Hekate
(90,712 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Power 2 the People
(2,437 posts)I'm all in.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I certainly agree with you. Unity is important. So is trust. How do the things I mentioned above contribute to any of those important things? How does DEFENDING those lies accomplish anything other than create division and distrust?
All I'm trying to say here is that pushing BACK against the lies isn't what's divisive... it's the lies themselves (and of course, defending the lies or making excuses for those who tell lies... that's divisive too.)
Hekate
(90,712 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)I support all our allies. That's the point
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)The quid pro quo for the change in the super delegate rule is a rule that will require candidates to be real members of the party. See https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/08/dnc-rule-change-sanders-supporters-634998
The draft goes on to require that any candidate pursuing the Democratic Partys nomination for president confirm in writing to the Democratic National Committee chairman that they are a member of the Democratic Party, will accept the Democratic nomination and will run and serve as a member of the Democratic Party.
The Rules and Bylaws Committee, meeting in Providence, R.I., made no final determination on superdelegates. DNC Chairman Tom Perez has proposed prohibiting superdelegates from voting on the first presidential nominating ballot at the national convention. Rules committee members also discussed a modified version of that proposal, in which superdelegates would be allowed to vote on the first ballot if a candidate had already earned enough pledged delegates from state primaries and caucuses to win the nomination.
This rule is in effect the quid pro quo for the change in the super delegate rule
realmirage
(2,117 posts)any evidence that runs contrary to the actual screenshot of the rules, which do not say you have to be a registered Democrat nor does it say that you can't just register as a Democrat at any time.
Wanting it to be true does not make it true.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Read the rule. You are totally wrong on your conclusion just as you were wrong to think that the Washington Post article cited in the OP helped your claim.
I hate the new super-delegate rule but I am glad that this new rule will keep sanders from pulling his normal stunt that he just used in Vermont. sanders will have to agree in writing to be a member of the party and to run and serve as a member of the party. sanders has not done this in Vermont.
The threat that unless the party nominates a person who is totally unacceptable to the majority of the party a small minority of the party will work to re-elect trump will not work I understand that some sanders supporters are evidently proud of their role in electing trump but the rest of the party is unified in their hatred of trump.
For example is sanders runs again, he will to explain his efforts to help trump' victory and defend things like his role in the sanders delegation's stunt of booing Congressman John Lewis.
Do you agree with your fellow sanders supporters and JPR types that Congressman John Lewis deserved to be booed at the National Convention and the sanders was correct in not taking any steps to block this stunt? https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/hey-john-lewis-karmas-a-mf-aint-it/
Hekate
(90,712 posts)FSogol
(45,488 posts)Didn't work on me when I was 7, doesn't work on me now.
liberal N proud
(60,335 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)It's "people like you" who got us Trump in the first place...
Quit trying to be so self-important. If you want to prove your worth, you'd best get your ass out on the streets and on the phones canvassing... Got no time for backseat drivers and Monday morning quarterbacks.
liberal N proud
(60,335 posts)Small-Axe
(359 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Even the most casual glance at voting demographics should divorce anyone of moderate intelligence of the notion it was young people who "got us Trump". But by all means, keep blaming young people for not nullifying the votes of the old. That'll get them out.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)even if he or she has a minority support in the Democratic Party and can't win the nomination.
When those folks sit out and attack the legitimacy of the Democratic nominee it is a losing situation.
Anyone of moderate intelligence ought to be able to figure that out.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)The people most directly responsible for "getting us Trump" are the people who voted for Trump. Then, in descending order of culpability, are those who did not vote at all, and, finally, those who cast votes for third party candidates in swing states.
Lobbing molotovs might make one feel superior and win esteem among one's immediate peer group, but a more sensible person might recognize that of the parties concerned (Trump voters, non-voters, and progressive third party voters) only one of them is ever likely to vote Democrat, and might therefore sensibly conclude courting them to be more advantageous in the long run.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)People who didn't vote, voted Green, or wrote in the name of a failed candidate (or anyone else) are 100% culpable in the election of Donald J Trump.
That's not "lobbying Molotov cocktails," that's exercising critical thinking.
Helping Trump win is what is irrational. Shame on those who did so.
If any of those people believe the Democratic Party should surrender itself to their threats, then I think those people are delusional.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)Greywing
(1,124 posts)they helped turn out the vote and are looking forward, not backward. I wholeheartedly embrace the idea of moving forward ...
realmirage
(2,117 posts)xmas74
(29,674 posts)My very liberal 18 year old has said repeatedly that Sanders and his comments about identity politics can f@ck off. She has stated she has no use for him.
realmirage
(2,117 posts)is that all the responses prove my initial post. There are a lot of people who still don't realize that we will not win without unity. People need to put aside their petty feelings and support all Democratic allies. It's the adult thing to do. It's the wise thing to do. Those who disagree must really want a second trump term. Not me!
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)Anyone who votes for democrats
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)If someone votes with Democrats most times in the Senate
But is not a Democrat
Is that a Democratic Ally?
realmirage
(2,117 posts)Anyone who votes for and supports Democrats. Yes. We need all of those people.
Small-Axe
(359 posts)Don't expect the Democratic Party to turn itself over to those who are not our allies.
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)So if I vote for someone who is not a Democrat but is an an Independent "Democratic- Ally" , I am not a Democratic Ally?
But I am a Democratic Ally-Ally? Or am I Democratic Ally-Ally-Ally? Unless he switches parties to become a Democrat. Then I'm a Democrat again. But he can't do that this next time so...
I should probably keep things simple and just vote (D).
Justice
(7,188 posts)lovemydogs
(575 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)realmirage
(2,117 posts)I see that the Sanders bashing continues daily...
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)One is the hugely diverse coalition of factions who average out mainstream. They're overwhelmingly progressive in approach but otherwise vary in almost every possible way, ideologically ranging from radical left-wing thinkers to mainstream liberals to progressive conservatives. But what unites them are generally
* Belief in liberal and progressive values and goals.
* Belief in the value of working through the Democratic Party to achieve them.
* Belief that the party needs improvement and occasional kicks in the butt, not revolution.
* Belief that by far most of the problems they must solve, and all the critically important ones, are created by today's Republicans and those operating through them.
The other is a dissident progressive faction who believe the Democratic Party coalition is the big problem they must solve, and that's where 90% of their passion is focused. Some are radical-leaning liberals, often populist leaning, and some are social-conservative populists, and dissidence against the mainstream is their reason for being. For that reason, RealMirage, the leaders will NEVER allow the unity called for in your OP.
Neither type is new, of course. Our revolutionary mainstream founders were unable to work with dissident revolutionaries of their day (actually, I don't think they tried much). FDR and company tried to ally with them, but ultimately they had to accomplish their mainstream revolution over the passionate and ferocious opposition of The Only True Progressives, who were sickened at the Democratic Party's "corrupt" refusal to turn the U.S. into a socialist state.
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)sanders so-called progressives who would not vote for an African American just cost us the Georgia and Florida governor's races.