20 years in prison for what used to be an administrative matter. Does the same apply for colleges? How about graduate school? If not, why not?

Weird Texas law.

Termination, which is a guarantee she won't ever teach again, and that's it.

I am wondering about colleges, too. The article says there is no gray area in the law: it is a felony for a teacher to have consensual sex with a student. And, if they are 18, it is consensual.

Again, I do NOT think teachers should be doing this, but I don't think it is criminal.

...then it may be that newspaper articles are not a good way to know what a law says.

This one, Texas Penal Code 21.12 is limited to "an employee of a public or private primary or secondary school".

You see, sex is the worst sin women can commit. It's always been this way and it's the reason for such a harsh sentence for what is undoubtedly either well controlled kink or a psychiatric disorder requiring treatment.

If it had been a man with adult women, he'd have been a stud.

What I want to know is: where were all these horn-dog teachers when I was a student?

themselves from indulging their urges--ESPECIALLY adults who are supposed to be in a position of trust? I have no problem with her going to jail.

I don't think she will get anything close to 20 years, but her spending time in jail is just a waste of money. Fire her, revoke her teaching license for life, and be done with it.

advantage of by this woman. It's really not hard for a pretty lady to convince some super-horny teenagers to sleep with her, I'm sure. But the law is the law, she preyed on her students, and I have no problem with the outcome.

We cannot, as a society, have it both ways: allow 18-year-olds to vote, marry, sign contracts, buy Playboy and cigarettes, sign up for Selective Service, join the military, etc., but yet tell them they are not able to have consensual sex with another adult. Which is it?

Why is the teacher a "predator"? And are you saying all laws are good laws? Gay sex was also a felony in Texas until the USSC said it wasn't. Consensual sex again.

I also think 18-year-olds should be allowed to buy alcohol. If you can marry, vote, and be drafted, you should be able to buy a six-pack.

Why is this criminal?

And as the mother of a kid this age, I am glad none of his teachers preyed on him and his insecurities, raging hormones, etc. when he was still in high school. You can argue that 18 is an adult, but if the kid's still in HS, he's still in HS, and students and parents should expect no sexual relationships to occur between teachers and students.

free to fuck anyone they wish who consents to sex with them. this is horrifying and stupid. are you actually going to claim that sex at 18 is so damaging to young people that we should criminalize some people who engage in it with them?

I have a hard time believing they're going to look back on their group sex activities with their teacher with fondness in about 10 years. They're going to realize that they were led into something by a woman in a position of trust and authority that they probably would not have done of their own initiative.

the law. It doesn't really matter what you think.

that there's a federal law? And this may come as a shock to you but just because something there's a law against something that doesn't make it just. And of course sex between an 18 year old hs student and a teacher can be consensual, or do you think all 18 year olds are idiot babies who need to be protected.

with this teacher), he should be protected from being harrassed, manipulated, enticed, threatened, etc. into situations where he may not have the power to refuse, or may not have the emotional maturity to cope. This wasn't a boy in the backseat with his girlfriend or boyfriend, navigating a normal sexual experience with a peer. This was a videotaped group of boys banging their teacher. Suppose this woman threatened to fail any of these kids for refusing to participate, or telling others? Just because their 18th birthdays happened to fall before their graduation dates doesn't mean they're suddenly subject to come-ons from teachers who might prevent them from graduating. I think the duty to protect them until they graduate is so important that it warrants criminal penalties for those who violate the students'--and public's--trust.

This isn't a cut-and-dried case; people are saying they think the Texas law is wrong.

For instance, the Arkansas Supreme Court struck down a similar law this year:http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/us-usa-crime-arkansas-idUSBRE82T00G20120330

it points out how fucked up the TX law is.

in jail.

It is the law's logic and its application that is odd, at the very least. If anything, I would think a high school senior already 18 - in, let's call it February of his or her senior year - would have more maturity and leverage in a situation than that same student, say, six months later as a first-year college student. In the first case, the student would be established in the school and community, would be functioning at the top level of a hierarchy of institutional and local knowledges, and would generally have more accesses to resources for redress and outlets for advice and judgment. In the case of the new college freshman, she may very well be isolated and away from home for the first time, unaware of the standards and surroundings, grappling with new and scary complexities, ignorant of institutional and community resources, and so forth. But we are to believe that the high school teacher having consensual sex with the 18 year old senior is taking advantage of a position more so than a college professor having consensual sex with an 18 year old freshman? It would seem to me rather the opposite.

Now, granted, these are both limit cases, but the case under consideration is a limit case. There should obviously be some sort of sentencing/criminal enhancement for a teacher who has sex with an underage student. That's obvious, and beyond dispute. The abuse of the position in such cases does strike me as an aggravating factor to be considered for sentencing purposes. But this law attempts the enhancement through a completely new charge, and it's one that doesn't make a whole lot of sense at the limit cases, and that's a problem.

So, we can certainly shut down discussion immediately and say, "Well, the law is the law and that's that." OK, fine. I think what people are responding to, however, is the deep weirdness of the law in these kinds of cases.

to criminal charges.

Like I said, I see the sentencing enhancement option for underaged students, but I detailed the problems in the last post on this applying to adult high school students but not adult college students. The law fails at its limit cases, as here. It's clear you think otherwise. It's not clear, however, why.

High school is an important part of the community, and a rite of passage, where kids should be safe from adult sexual situations perpetrated by those in authority. High school years are crucial in terms of emotional development. I don't care if the kids are 16 or 18--they have not completed their education until they graduate, therefore the school's role--and community's role-- of protecting the student does not change until they graduate. These adults are in a position of trust--parents and students need to trust this institution and its employees to NOT harm the students, physically or emotionally. She couldn't wait until they were no longer in her class and under her authority as a teacher before going after them. She's a predator, and she's where she belongs now.

You might as well try and argue "But she has brown hair!".

pathetic.

She didn't care one damn bit about what emotional harm could happen to her own children if her activities were to be discovered.

I don't give a shit about her. I do care about the rights of consenting adults to enter into sex.

Last edited Sat Aug 18, 2012, 11:51 AM - Edit history (1)

If you don't give a shit about her, then she's probably not the best example you could use to argue your main point.

it's about the rights of consenting adults. why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

If this was just a generic discussion on the rights of consenting adults, it'd probably have sunk off the 1st page already.

only got 147 replies. And a thread is about what the responders make it about as much as anything else. Clearly the op about this woman is about whether sex between consenting adults should be criminalized as much as it's about anything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021151534

thankfully the law does not care and will prosecute the predators that violate them.

And you call him a victim for getting to do it with a woman? That's insane.

She isn't a mental health doctor or therapist. That is the only category I can see an adult going to prison for having consensual sex with another adult, and then the odds are good the one adult wasn't able to give real consent.

The "victims" are also adults, so what should their punishment be?

It is about the inherent power imbalance.

But we're in a very jail-happy culture, and some have forgotten how to question that...

All the stories made it sound like she'd done this all on her own. I don't think she should have been teaching teens, but 20 years in prison for having sex with 18 year olds is ridiculous. Rapists don't get that much time, do they?

And, 50K in fines.

I agree she should have been fired and had her license taken.

I think someone in a position of power shouldn't have sex with their students. Even college teachers, until after the student has left their classes, etc. But criminal charges just seem really Puritanical. 18 year olds are adults.

I think the 18 year olds will be more traumatized that their having sex with her put her in jail.

Thank you.

He was away when she had sex with the students.

Or a pastor for having sex with a congregant?

Being fired isn't the same as being sentenced to 20 years for consensual sex. Ridiculous.

"Should she have been fired? YES. Should she be barred from teaching? Yes."

I tried to make it really clear I don't think people in authority should abuse the authority, but I don;t think it's criminal. I wouldn't even have a problem with the students suing her in civil court -- that's what it's for.

Also, the husband doesn't think what she did was wrong -- he says that. As per his own statements, they often engaged in group sex, and doesn't think what she did was criminal.

Saying I didn't make it clear is 100% wrong.

for something to be unethical due to the relationship as student/teacher, but not illegal due to both being of an age to consent. Not everything unethical needs to be illegal. Obviously this is unethical AND illegal in Texas, but I don't agree with the law. Unethical, yes. To make it illegal seems puritanical, and the level of punishment for sex between legal adults seems ridiculous.

I have to go do things now, so this isn't a semi hit-and-run.

really what do you expect?

Sentencing her to be stoned to death would not at all surprise me.

I definitely think that a high school teacher having sex with his or her students is abominable (an elementary school teacher doing this , without doubt, is criminal).

I strongly disagree with those that find nothing wrong with this .... I can only imagine that most teachers find this appalling ... When a similar situation arose at the high school my daughter attended the accused teacher (in the end there was overwhelming evidence, including hotel security camera imagery showing him checking in with the 17 year old girl) .... his co-workers reacted with disgust (they had actually had suspicions about his behavior and brought them to administration, but had no no hard evidence in the years before this incident).

I guess at the end of the day (in this situation) I agree with you ... while this teacher's behavior was unethical ... despicable ... it was deserving of firing (and preventing this person from ever teaching again) ... but, lots of despicable actions are not necessarily criminal (i.e. not deserving of prison).

Just not criminal.

I have taught with people having sex with their very adult students, and disagreed with that, because they were teaching them at the time, and these were people in their 30's.

What happened to the teacher with the 17-year-old?

... but in other threads.

The teacher in question was convicted and sentenced to three years (?) in prison.

He was a high school history teacher and the girls varsity soccer coach (my daughter was on his team). A quick search:

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2010/04/center_line_high_s.html

"Center Line High School teacher convicted of having sex with 17-year-old student"

There is a legal difference between 17 and 18, that's for sure. People are idiots, including the woman in the OP.

And yet, he got less time than the woman in the OP, even if you times 3 x 5.

... Michigan is that the age of consent is 16. Had this tool had any other relationship with this 17 year old his actions would not have been criminal.

I understand that you are in no way stating that what this teacher (in Texas) did was OK (or anything less than unethical) ... in my own experience these actions undermine the student/ teacher relationship severely. This relationship is so important .... this is where my bifurcated feelings come from ... In this situation the relationship is different than almost any other ... an 18 year old adult in high school is treated like a 16 year old "kid" and held to the same rules.

Mercifully, most teachers are appalled by these aberrant behaviors .... it's news when it happens because it is an aberration (thankfully).

So does that still make it okay for teachers to fuck 17-yr olds?

17-year-olds aren't. 17-year-olds can't vote, be drafted, sign a contract, etc.

And, I don't believe I ever once said it was okay for a teacher to have a relationship with an adult student. Just like with a supervisor at work, the teacher should have been fired and had her license pulled, because this was an ethical issue. I do not believe consensual sex between adults is criminal. I know of circumstances where adult children meet a parent for a first time and have sex with them (ie the bio The Kiss). I think that is horrifying, to me, but again, isn't criminal.

Could you please link to where I said it's okay for a teacher to have sex with students? As I have said in another post within this thread, I teach in higher ed, and don't agree with instructors having a relationship with students they teach or probably will be teaching. Again, please supply me with the link.

Whatever it is ... it is despicable

Just because there is a law saying something is criminal doesn't mean it is good law.

There is nothing wrong with a clause in the law that says teachers may not have sex with the students.

The high school as employer is not a hook up service. What kind of education did she deliver while sizing up her next shag? How did the other students feel about being a student in her own personal harem? Suppose her husband comes home from the war and guns down one of these guys.

In fact I suppose it would be OK even with 18 year olds who were not her students. Some people live to such excess.

led and manipulated against their own common sense, and real grown men might even be dangerous, or demanding.

They were legally adults and took the lesson.

There is a videotape of it, for crying out loud.

He wasn't at home at all when this went on.

fire the shrink. take away his license.

Just because someone is in a position of authority (or subordination) does not mean they shouldn't be allowed to have sex with another person. In your opinion, should it be illegal for people in authority positions to have sex with persons they preside over?

IMO, this teacher's behavior was immoral and and unbecoming of her position. For that she should be fired as there was likely a breech of the terms of her employment contract. However, her actions should not have her on trial facing multiple 20 year sentences. That's fucked up.

Dang!

But as for the charge, you cannot have sex with your students. Should anyone go to jail? Of course not. But being professionally disciplined is not beyond the pale.

Yes, she should lose her job but to be sent to prison is stupid. If they were 15, I could understand the charge but at 18 they are legally adults.

This is a kid in high school, who presumably wants to complete his education, and now a teacher is enticing him into sex--for a grade? Who knows?

As the president, he is in a position of almost ultimate authority... in your world, perhaps he should have been thrown in jail.

really? you think all sexual relationships with peers are "on equal footing"? And yes, they all testified that they entered into this willingly.


sheesh. the prudery and the bizarre thinking that you're employing are just sad.

with your English teacher while you're still in high school is a pretty big, sad, sick deal. It's OK, you don't have to see it the same way. But either way, she's got a lot of free time to enjoy her memories, LOL. Of that, I am glad.

bring into question the issue of possible coercion. For this reason organizations usually have policies to prohibit such situations. It's not a great sacrifice to wait till after graduation, if it's real love, or to find someone else to fuck if it's not.

I'm sure someone else has already mentioned this, probably more than one. Just adding my voice to theirs.

For those who say "But teachers shouldn't have sex with their students!" Sure, that's a valid point and I'd agree with you. But it should be treated like any other legal-but-unethical behavior: as workplace policy, violations of which are dealt with by the employer (in this case, the school).

Unethical doesn't mean criminal.

.. if this were a male teacher and 5 female students, how much it would change the comments being said here.

Court-martialed for having sex with (adult) students. Not forcible rape, but possible/probable coercion.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/lackland-air-force-base-sex-scandal_n_1675902.html

.. but I'm not clear that there were threats and intimidation in this OP's case, but it does show how sex when one of the people has sway over the other is very poor judgment at it's very best. But criminal (outside the military)? I'm not so sure of that.

Adults are either adults or they aren't.

My question wasn't directed at you or any other at a personal level. it was merely a question based on my experiences when this kind of subject arises.

This is an ethical and employment issues, not criminal, imo.

They were 18 years old. 18 is albeit and artificial and arbitrary demarcation for adulthood, but it is what we currently use. THey were 18 and consented.

I'm sure it is in the manual. There are many, many examples of otherwise legal activity being a criminal violation under specific circumstances...

Firing her and revoking her teaching license? I'm fine with that, but criminal penalties for sex between consenting adults? Nope, that's way too draconian and authoritarian for me.

She was having icky hetero sex with multiple men (not kids). That she wasn't married to. Probably in non missionary positions. And not for procreation. And she ENJOYED it!

For some people that's all it takes to call her a sexual predator and applaud sending her to jail. Even the progressive community isn't immune from that attitude yet.

And she knew it. It's also against a law she was certainly fully aware of. No sympathy for the woman here.

Exactly. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

I taught school. I know 2 male teachers who were fired for having sex with two 18 year old students. The kids considered them hot. This was in Northern Virginia.

BRIGHT LINE!
I don't care if they are of age and it's consensual. A teacher should never have sex with a student. Period! Call me Victorian. I don't care.

The problems it can create in a culture of a school can be hard to deal with. The students know. The story gets out in some form, and all teachers and all rules are suspect. The kids don't care about consensual or whatever. They hear the basics and understand that there is a rule and they know what the law says. Will they be cut some slack over some other rule they break because of some extenuating circumstance in their minds.

Try parsing this out with a group of ninth graders. It becomes a tangled argument about age, law, what rules mean, what punishment means, and what the dawg drug in. It creates more than a ripple. And those kids remember.

You can argue about the harshness of the punishment, but every jurisdiction spells it out. It's not a secret. Work to change the penalies if you disagree.

If you cannot control yourself so that you are unable to avoid sex with a student, then get out of education. I don't care if they are 18. They are considered to be under the aegis of the educational system. Until they graduate, they are students bound by certain restrictions. The teachers are too.

Flame me or whatever. It is an effing mess that I have seen up close. The ramiications aren't confined to those individuals charged. Then add to that another favorite teacher who has dalliances with students but is able to avoid getting caught by the law.

Lawd what a hot mess. I never want to go through that again.