My family has been making salami for 200 years. There is more nitrite in a bunch of celery than a whole salami.

Nitrite inhibits botulism. It's not necessary in whole muscles but is required in ground meat products.

And on edit, we make wine too.

I think you have sulfites confused with nitrites and yes, organic wine has sulfites too. It's also kind of required in the process for a consistent product

It's been our family business for 100 years in this country. We are norcini.

Very interesting:
http://www.casellasalumi.com/legend-of-the-norcini/

"LEGEND OF THE NORCINI
In the Tuscan countryside, as in the rural hill towns and villages all around Italy, families with farms traditionally bought their pigs in the spring and raised them through the summer and fall. When winter arrived, so did the norcini, the traveling butchers who drove from town to town to make salumi. "...A pretty good read.

I got home and opened the package and guess what greeted me? Mold on the top of the cupcakes. I was busy today, spent all day working on something, but I am going out tomorrow and plan to stop by that store and point out that there was mold on the packaged cupcakes. Imagine a parent buying that stuff for a child then not examining it.

This concept that EVERY food additive is bad is truly a dangerous notion. The company that made the cupcakes likely didn't use a preservative or went to light on it, the downside is that someone could immediately be sickened or killed because they did.

The sad thing is there are a couple of perfectly good natural preservatives that company could have used.

We use it salumi and cheese making. It adds flavor and means the product is healthy (conditions like temperature and humidity are appropriate). General rule is white and green molds are good, black mold is a bad thing.

Initially I though that they were sesame seeds since those get added to lemon flavored baked goods, but I noticed the irregularity in sizing of the black spots, then looked closer.

And while it might be okay to cut a moldy part off a hunk of cheese, it's not okay to throw away just a moldy slice of bread. The mold will be dispersed throughout the loaf, and the whole thing needs to be tossed.

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/10/29/ask-well-is-it-safe-to-eat-moldy-bread/?mtrref=www.google.com

When you see a spot of mold on bread, you are just seeing the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, because mold has long threadlike roots that invade the food “and you might not be able to tell how far it’s gone,” said Marianne H. Gravely, an educator with the United States Department of Agriculture’s Food Safety and Inspection Service.

The U.S.D.A. recommends discarding bread and other baked goods with mold, because the microscopic fungi can cause allergic reactions and respiratory problems in some people. A few molds, under certain conditions, may produce hazardous substances called mycotoxins. The worst of these, aflatoxins, may cause liver cancer and are found primarily in peanuts and corn during harvesting and storage. Their presence is monitored by government agencies.

If you want to preserve some of the bread, Ms. Gravely said, “cut away a big section surrounding the mold with a healthy margin around it to make sure you got all of it.”

But check the whole bread loaf carefully as there may be more mold you haven’t noticed in other spots. Mold is an indication the bread has probably been stored for too long and is “past its prime,” Ms. Gravely said. Foods that are moldy may also have bacteria that are invisible to the naked eye.

And are generally fine.

Black and red molds can be bad, especially the black as it IS associated with mycotoxin.

Like I said, this has been our business since my grandfather and great grandfather came here.

I kind of know what I am talking about.

Mold is a normal part of certain foods -- bleu cheese for example.

But bread that is moldy is -- at best -- past its prime. At worst, it can contain toxins that cause asthma and other serious allergic reactions, and can contain mycotoxins. Also, if mold is present that's an indicator that the bread is old and might contain harmful bacteria, too.

(And plenty of people are allergic to penicillin.)

https://www.businessinsider.com/bleu-cheese-mold-2012-6

Here's Why The Mold In Bleu Cheese Is Safe To Eat

Penicillium Roqueforti and Penicillium Glaucum which are the blue molds used for cheese, cannot produce these toxins in cheese. The combination of acidity, salinity, moisture, density, temperature and oxygen flow creates an environment that is far outside the envelope of toxin production range for these molds. In fact, this is true for almost all molds in cheese, which is the reason that cheese has been considered a safe moldy food to eat over the past 9,000 years.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/04/21/523647669/is-it-safe-to-eat-moldy-bread

"Every time I throw out moldy bread, I can still hear my dad lecturing me: 'That's perfectly good! Just cut that part off! It's penicillin!' " says Shawna Iwaniuk, a graphic designer in Alberta, Canada. "But ... I just can't."

So, who's right? Is the furry green stuff a death knell for a baguette, or just a minor setback?

For food safety experts, the answer is clear: Moldy bread is bad news.

SNIP

What's more, by the time mold has moved in, other harmful kinds of bacteria associated with food spoiling may also have infiltrated the food.



https://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/what-if/what-if-eat-moldy-bread.htm

t's 3 a.m. You're craving a peanut butter and jelly sandwich — or maybe a grilled cheese. You open the bread bag and — ugh! — the bread is blue with mold along one edge. As you're trying to decide whether to throw the bread away, you remember that penicillin is made from mold [source: NLM]. That makes it OK to eat, right? Think again.

SNIP

While molds may be pretty, they can also be harmful. Many varieties — there are hundreds of thousands of molds — cause allergies and respiratory problems. In some cases, molds produce mycotoxins, a poison that makes people, livestock and other animals sick. And guess where one of the most notorious mycotoxins — aflatoxin — grows? That's right: on grains and nut crops — two things that make up many breads [source: USDA].

Aflatoxin, a cancer-causing mold found around the world, is one of the most studied and monitored molds out there. But despite all the attention it gets, this mold has not been eradicated — though manufacturing plants across the globe are monitored to ensure levels of aflatoxin remain within acceptable limits [source: USDA]


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/14/mold-food-health-risk/2788405/

"The appearance of mold on bread usually means that the entire loaf is moldy," Shelke says. "It is best to throw out the entire loaf, as well as the bag containing the bread. Moldy bread is not salvageable, and mold spores spread quickly throughout soft foods and can contaminate the entire bag. "

They also tell you that your cannot pressure can tomatoes without adding acid and they won't let us use the traditional European way of dry curing salame even though they invented it. It's why all commercial salami tastes like summer sausage and has a sour Tang. The USDA relies on a pH drop to be "safe", but a salame is jot shelf stable until Aw (water activity) is below 80%

You can believe what you want, but I assure you no one is dying from mycotoxin poisoning from stale bread.

And on Edit

The example you gave actually verified what I said. It's pretty harmless in healthy people. Pregnant women and folks with compromised immune systems should not be eating cured meat, moldy cheeses, etc.

and no one ever has asthma attacks due to mold.



There is a difference between dry, stale bread and moldy bread; and there's a difference between moldy cheeses and moldy breads.

I see you have pointed to no food safety experts other than yourself who support your position. That's because there aren't any.

Quit being silly. In normal healthy people it pisses no risk.

who says it's safe to eat moldy bread.

The difference between a cat allergy and mold allergy is that, if you are allergic, you can see a cat and avoid it. If you remove a moldy piece of bread there can be mold spores dispersed through the rest of the loaf that can't be seen, and can make someone sick. Because the moldy bread is also likely to be old, it can also contain bacteria that could make someone sick.

Apparently you don't think anyone has ever gotten food poisoning, either.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/529521-can-moldy-bread-make-you-sick-or-give-you-a-headache/

Molds will kill you!

Are you happy now?

Better yet, link me an article that shows on person who died if myotoxin from bread. Not an allergic reaction, but a poisoning.

Then go find me one food scientist who says you can skip the acid if you pressure can tomatoes. You won't. You know why? Because they never ran the damned test because they didn't have the money. Doesn't matter that a couple million grandma's have been pressure canning tomatoes for a hundred years with no issues. USDA. Never. Conducted. The. Test.

I'm a damned toxicologist who did his grad work in plant secondary metabolites. I was in Davis when the Food Quality Protection Act was being redone.

Believe what you want. Personally I think you just like busting chops.

but doesn't cause you to actually die?

Most people don't agree.

You know food mold scares me? Peanut mold. That CAN hurt you. Aflotoxins. You know another one that's a bit scary? Corn mold. You know won't? Moldy bread.

I loved eating huitlacoche in Mexico. I ate it almost 40 years ago. I'm still here.

made from grains.

https://draxe.com/aflatoxin/

The foods and crops most likely to be contaminated with aflatoxin include:

peanuts
corn
milk and cheese (rarely, meat can also become contaminated due to the spreading in aflatoxin in livestock feed)
nuts (especially almonds, Brazil nuts, pecans, pistachios and walnuts)
grains including quinoa
soybeans
figs
dried spices
although it’s not commonly eaten, cottonseed is also a major crop that tends to grow aflatoxin

Tomatoes can be safely canned using what's called "water bath" method. My grandmothers, mother, and my sisters and I have all done it that way. We never added any acid. Just have to make sure to be using an older variety of tomato that hasn't had the acid bred out of it.

But pressure canned tomatoes should not need to be acidified since pressure canning is for low acid foods.

My pressure canner is from France and has a recipe for pressure canned tomatoes. It doesn't call for acid.

are supposed to be discarded.

I always buy gluten free and they are no harder to keep mold-free than any other kind of bread.

More about moldy bread here:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11603546

The muffins were packaged gluten free muffins (I can eat gluten perfectly fine, just wanted to try them out, normally gluten free stuff tastes bad). They were in an impulse counter position and I never noticed them before, could be a new product. I have absolutely never had a problem with food health concerns with the store and Friday I also bought gorgeous sweet potatoes there (slow roast heaven).

I will stop by tomorrow and let them know. Because the muffins are gluten free, someone that does have health issues with glutens could end up eating them if they are not careful. Plus, I am sure that the mold was black, I initially mistook them for sesame seeds, but then noticed many spots of a variety of sizes, including one fairly big spot.

with gluten especially wouldn't want to be exposed to mold.

My reaction to gluten is intestinal inflammation and even bleeding, and unfortunately I don't know I've been exposed to gluten till a couple days after I eat it. So it wouldn't be good for someone like me to accidentally eat a moldy muffin.

It was just a busy day with some business issues that I was working on and running an errand for my oldest brother. It would really stink if someone who has Health issue purchase the muffins and don't notice the mold and I could have had them taken down by acting sooner. Like I said, when I first saw it I mistook it for sesame seeds and almost started gulping it down, the paper cup forced me to slow down, that is when I noticed the different sized black spots.

What's not to love? Sounds really cool, and thanks for sharing.

I have been doing increasingly complicated perserved meat at home now for several years.

Venison and Duck Pate with nitrate
Cured pork jowls
Confit of Duck
Cured salmon and mullet
Even Battarga(cured and dried mullet roe).

Unfortunately, because I live in Florida, until I get a climate controlled curing room I can’t move on to bacon, hams, and the king of cured meats, mold cured dried Salumi's.

Charcuterie is the main reason I go back to Europe.

You have an interesting story.

Than what most associate with "Italian sausage". Those are southern sausage and are generally just a fennel sausage (pollen or seed) with a pepperoncino for spice.

Look up Salam della duja for (or salme Sotto grasso) for an example of our unique culture. We also do Salam patate which is associated with Canavesse, where we hail from. Every year they have La Sagra di Salam patate or Festival of the potato sausage in our historic village.

You can PM me for help if you need it.

Not that spicy(though as a Louisianan I love spice)

And was in Italy north of Venice in the Dolomites this fall and had some incredible home cured sausage.

I will google the ones you mentioned.

Thank you for chiming in. Why I love DU.

on this thread. I’m bookmarking this to research the terms you’re using. There’s something magic about good sausage...the science, the tradition and all else that goes into it. Thank you for sharing.

I would not try what you are trying. Where did you pick up enough to even get started, friends, associates, reading? If I remember correctly, you have a close association with farming somehow.

I am thinking about making my own sweet Italian sausage. I found a farm that does well controlled pastured pork where the hogs don't get feed strange stuff. I figure I will buy the required cut and some natural casings and go from there. I am thinking about soaking the casings in a sweet red wine before filling them.

But European travel got me started.

Along with making bacteria fermented milk and vegetable products like pickles and sauerkraut.

I also ferment pepper mash for months on oak wood to make hot sauce. With home grown peppers. Which is how Tabasco is made.

Of the things I mentioned only battarga is truly dry cured. I have some hanging in my garage now covered with cheese cloth. Read about battarga. It is a magic ingredient.

But the internet is your friend. If has given me lots of confidence to make things I have eaten in other places.

Once I realized that bacteria can be as beneficial as harmful I was motivated to try things myself.

I will say I am an experienced cook who happens to have a science education. And I have a gallon of Duck fat in my beer fridge! It becomes an obsession.

A hint on your sausage project. Don’t cut back on the recommended fat content. It’s important. And The wine soaking tells me you like to try different things. Good luck!

I am not as ambitious with food though, except growing stuff, where I like to weigh and make notes on harvests then select specific seeds.

Have you considered building your own cure/aging shack with salt walls? In Florida, your air conditioning bill would be outrageous given the need to control heat and moisture, in more northern climates seasons help some and people cure and age meats at a specific time of year.

On bacon and nitrates, never has been a problem for me. I don't like bacon (yeah, I am in that minority). I do like ham, but my consumption of it is pretty low. I wonder HOW MUCH nitrate a person has to consume annually for there to be an issues? Plus, there is likely differences between different people.

Put in the middle of the home the cooling bill is not much. And I don’t need more than 6x8 feet. Guess I could use it as a wine cellar as well!

My field of study focused on genetic science in the college of Agriculture at a major Land Grant University. Granted in the mid 80s. But I have a strong science background.

Despite my carry on about meat products, I only eat bacon about once a week. But I always have a country ham around to snack on. FYI. A good cured Kentucky or Virginia ham can and should be eaten uncooked like the Italians and Spanish do. They are processed the same way.


But my normal breakfast...a smoothie made with 2 cups of organic frozen fruit, a cup of grass fed whole milk yogurt and 1/4 cup of flax meal! I’ve got my stereotypical liberal dietary credibility as well! And we are meat free at least 2 days a week.

And Nitrates? I don’t think most Americans eat enough to make a difference and I am sure and certain the bourbon I am sipping now is much more likely to get me. And both are benign compared to botulism.

Nice to have a fun, non political discussion for a change.

You have a nice weekend and a happy and prosperous New Year. Look forward to future conversations.

Is it fat from wild ducks or domestic? I read above that you’re a hunter...we hunt as well in our family. We have elk and cheddar sausage in the smoker right now! Back to the ducks...if they’re ducks you harvested, how do you prepare them? I can’t seem to find a way to make them taste like anything we want to eat. Luckily we’ve got neighbors who really enjoy them but I’d like to find a use for them that I like. This is a fun thread to read.

But Duck is the most abused meat in American home kitchen because we think it has to be cooked thru like domestic chicken.

Next time you get ducks save all the leg quarters and make confit. You will need lots of Duck fat which you can buy. Wild duck does not have that much. Lots of good confit recipes in the internet. Just don’t use the ones called quick or easy. You basically boil the for hours in duck fat at 220 degrees for several hours. They will last for months in the frigid covered with fat. And with the fat you can make the best food in the world...Duck fat French fries!

Oh, and all the good recipes demand a plucked duck, not a skinned out breasted one, which is a sin to the animal we just killed! And which 95% of American hunters do. The skin is important.

For the breast cut them out skin on. In a pretty hot iron skillet with a few tablespoons of oil cook them skin side up for just a few minutes. When browned remove and turn up heat till about smoking and place them skin side down for just a few minutes till the skill is almost charred. Remove from heat. Let rest and slice into medallions like a small whitetail blackstrap. It must be rare or medium rare. Best eating you will ever do. If Duck meat not red it is not worth eating.

And if y’all dove hunt try plucking them, stuff with fruit or sausage and put the under a broiler, turning till brown but medium rare inside. Heaven.

Good luck. I learned all this on the internet. Growing up I ate lots of horribly cooked game. Going to Europe opened my eyes.

But thought I’d make sure there wasn’t some secret about wild ducks I didn’t know. You’re correct in that wild ducks don’t have much fat...even up here in the north country. That and I’m married to a well known bird taxidermist and the skin stays with the feathers if they’re a good specimen for mounting. I’ve always wanted to explore duck confit so will take your suggestions to heart. Wild goose is something that has a bit more fat and is something I’ve found is better table fare than wild duck. Canada geese are wonderful as is swan. When we’re lucky enough to get a tundra swan, I brine them and often smoke or roast them. They’re lovely.

Cheers!

Can’t think of anything better than bacon. Or high quality meat for that matter.

Living not to die is not living.

Laugenacken (like a pretzel and a biscuit had a baby), speck, and camberzola cheese for breakfast every day.

If I gotta go, let it be like that!

But I had farm made Mortedella that was very course and half Lardo.

You ever get to Central Florida pm me.

Any nitrates in wine, if there are any, would be naturally-occurring.

You can sanitize with it, but there are better ones now.

Anyway, the grapes will have a ton of wild yeast on them. You dose the must with sulfites to inhibit the wild yeast, then in 24 hours innoculate with a commercial yeast.

You also add sulfites every time you rack the wine. It prevents oxidation.

You add a final dose before you bottle.

“No nitrite” bacon means no raw nitrites were added.
But “no nitrite” bacon uses lots of celery extract, which has high naturally occurring nitrites.
This is just another case of false advertising by food companies.


Eg
https://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/food-and-cooking/the-curious-case-of-the-great-celery-powder-scam/article_2c398b4e-eb90-580d-955b-367ffd2975d6.html

It's actually a bit scarier since you really don't know those dose in celery powder. It's an advertising gimmick.

But is not the ‘wet’ bacon Americans are used to and does not fry up crispy without burning.

I love it, but like my bacon soggy!

We have a terrific processor here that uses ONLY organic, including in the wine they produce. Started up about 15 years ago. We're faithful customers.

Our largest problem is produce. We can grow our own in summer (mostly just July/August) but finding organic is becoming more difficult.

Sigh......back to frozen, I guess! I won't touch anything from Mexico or South America, little from California - LOADED with chemicals.

I am in the middle of my gardening year...collards, mustard, peas, beans, radishes, kale, celery, carrots, cabbage, tomatoes and peppers. And all the normal herbs. We even have a bay tree!

Summer sucks for me in a culinary sense.

We drink French wine. None grown in Florida worth drinking.

for crying out loud...