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localroger

(3,626 posts)
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 06:47 PM Jan 2019

It's gone beyond narcissism. He's having a psychotic break. UPDATED

Last edited Sat Jan 5, 2019, 10:28 AM - Edit history (2)

Trump has long said whatever he thought would sound best regardless of truth, but at the end of the day he had to manage to conduct business. Today's presser after the fruitless Pelosi-Schumer meeting was a full blown denial of reality though. He simply refuses to perceive anything that will stop his cool plan to use the shutdown to blackmail the Dems into giving him his wall. Every point of evidence is either invisible to him or he sees it as the opposite of what it really is -- like the out of work government employees who are "his biggest fans."

This isn't self-love, or even persuasion; this is a psychotic break. He knows this is his last stand. It's not Trump with his sanctions that should have been on that Game of Thrones poster, it's Mueller who is really coming. For Trump this is one roll all in, double or nothing, and he has convinced himself that losing is not a possibility not as a deliberate tactic, but because he cannot psychologically face the possibility of losing.

This is an extremely dangerous moment. I have no doubt Trump really would hold out forever on this demand. It's not that he doesn't care about the people he hurts; it's that in his reality they are not hurting, and are in fact cheering him on. You really can't negotiate with that. All you can do is pray the other Republicans realize what they have to do before too much damage is done.

UPDATE: For those who wonder if Trump's behavior can be classified as psychosis, I found this page:
https://www.psychguides.com/guides/psychosis-symptoms-causes-and-effects/
Trump would appear to be a textbook example of what it calls "delusional disorder," and lists as a form of psychosis.

For those who say it's just more of the same: Yes, he's always been a liar and somewhat evil, but in the past he has been capable of seeing when the lies aren't working any more and reversing course. This is not what we were hearing at the presser though; he appears to have closed himself off to any possibillity that he will not win. If lies were water, Trump has always been a spigot; but now his lies are freezing into ice. It makes a difference, as passengers of the Titanic found out.

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It's gone beyond narcissism. He's having a psychotic break. UPDATED (Original Post) localroger Jan 2019 OP
We have to stop considering our status as only the result of his impulsivity and pathology. Grasswire2 Jan 2019 #1
Yup. I agree. FiveGoodMen Jan 2019 #5
Aided by the billionaires and uncontrollable Wall St greed. Initech Jan 2019 #39
He's Vladimir Putin's FAVORITE barker! PatrickforO Jan 2019 #13
this, this this. nt Baltimike Jan 2019 #20
The elected Republicans facing their election demise in 2020 lunatica Jan 2019 #2
McConnell is waiting for the winds to shift. maxsolomon Jan 2019 #7
One of his mental problems is that he is a sadist. BigmanPigman Jan 2019 #3
yes nt Grasswire2 Jan 2019 #6
Yeah, when is the next binding? I always lose track of that... PatrickforO Jan 2019 #14
You just missed it...Jan 2nd. BigmanPigman Jan 2019 #15
Thank you! PatrickforO Jan 2019 #38
Here is the whole thing. BigmanPigman Jan 2019 #43
The fight club is in shape. saidsimplesimon Jan 2019 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Jan 2019 #4
I agree. saidsimplesimon Jan 2019 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Jan 2019 #12
Trump is mentally unbalanced and should be removed dem in texas Jan 2019 #9
I hate to nitpick, Fiendish Thingy Jan 2019 #10
Did you see today's presser? localroger Jan 2019 #11
Psychosis doesn't emerge in one's 70's Fiendish Thingy Jan 2019 #19
Consider the one statement localroger Jan 2019 #25
I disagree - I watched my normal mother become psychotic with certain drugs womanofthehills Jan 2019 #27
Yes - drug induced psychosis or psychotic features of another mental illness like depression Fiendish Thingy Jan 2019 #41
Help a dummy out then GusBob Jan 2019 #16
If he was hearing the voices of dead presidents Fiendish Thingy Jan 2019 #17
You're right GusBob Jan 2019 #24
You're just adopting that as an a priori assumption localroger Jan 2019 #26
Then please consider this: localroger Jan 2019 #29
That's not psychosis Fiendish Thingy Jan 2019 #42
You're just stuck on the lying thing localroger Jan 2019 #44
Please consider this... localroger Jan 2019 #45
If he truly believes his lies, then yes, he could be delusional Fiendish Thingy Jan 2019 #47
Did he happen to mention exactly which "former Presidents" advised him on this topic? Grammy23 Jan 2019 #18
More likely it's a steady diminishing of cognitive function. VOX Jan 2019 #22
Trump is not hallucinating. He is evil. KWR65 Jan 2019 #21
+1. He knows exactly what he's doing. dalton99a Jan 2019 #23
I don't think he does - he seems confused and all over the place womanofthehills Jan 2019 #31
A tree stump would have a 55% approval rating with this economy. John Fante Jan 2019 #32
The two things are not mutually exclusive /nt localroger Jan 2019 #33
We've heard this about once a week HopeAgain Jan 2019 #28
No, he's not the same localroger Jan 2019 #34
Remember his first presser? HopeAgain Jan 2019 #35
Yes, I do remember those localroger Jan 2019 #36
45 and his cult-followers are, at the very least, NOT grounded in objective reality. VOX Jan 2019 #30
Dead presidents talking to trump Cha Jan 2019 #37
It starts with the House and the Senate overriding his veto of a continuing resolution. krispos42 Jan 2019 #40

Grasswire2

(13,569 posts)
1. We have to stop considering our status as only the result of his impulsivity and pathology.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 06:56 PM
Jan 2019

What's happening has been the plan.

Stated early on.

Shutter the government. Empty out the agencies; fail to appoint and replace critical jobs. Appoint others who are unqualified or even antithetical to the mission and task. Ruin the economy with tariffs and taxes. Kill regulations that protect the planet and its people. Weaken America and weaken the Western Alliance. Keep one third of the people in thrall to the clown circus. Need I continue?

It is all of a piece. A plot.

Wake up, America. Wake up.

He's just the barker, the tool.

PatrickforO

(14,572 posts)
13. He's Vladimir Putin's FAVORITE barker!
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 09:51 PM
Jan 2019

Or he was.

But when he starts falling, he shouldn't be naive enough to thing Putin will help him in any way.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
2. The elected Republicans facing their election demise in 2020
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 06:57 PM
Jan 2019

will change their tune because they aren’t true believers like his lemming base who will happily march over the cliff for him.

McConnell is facing elections in 2020. Maybe that’s why he’s so quiet.

maxsolomon

(33,327 posts)
7. McConnell is waiting for the winds to shift.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 07:11 PM
Jan 2019

Regardless of this crisis, he'll sail to victory in 2020. Whether he remains in charge is the question.

BigmanPigman

(51,590 posts)
3. One of his mental problems is that he is a sadist.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 06:57 PM
Jan 2019

He could keep doing this for pure personal enjoyment.

There have been many posts over the past few days about his current level of sanity. He is a more dangerous person to the country at this point. His narcissism and sociopathic tendencies are going into overdrive.

BigmanPigman

(51,590 posts)
15. You just missed it...Jan 2nd.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:16 PM
Jan 2019

It is 3 days before a "new moon" each month. If you go to #Bind Trump you can see the author's reminders about him. I don't use Twitter but I can still Google it.

This is what it said...

"2019 is the year our #BindTrump mass ritual will accomplish its goal—driving Trump from office.
But now is NOT the time to get complacent!
Pleaser join us, witches and magical people, at 11:59pm on January 2nd as we do it again!
A Spell to Bind Donald Trump and All Those Who Abet Him: January 2nd Mass Ritual
extranewsfeed.com"

I got put my 2019 calendar that shows the phases of the moon just now and marked each month. Here they are...
Feb 1, March 3, April 2, May 1, May 31, June 29, July 28, Aug 27, Sept 25, Oct 24, Nov 23, and Dec 23.

BigmanPigman

(51,590 posts)
43. Here is the whole thing.
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 04:37 AM
Jan 2019

It is what I do each month. One of the orange candles was just unearthed from where I buried it outside during our last rain. You need a tarot deck or The Tower card if you know anyone with a deck. I usually post it the day of each ritual if I remember to. It is under the Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality Forum.

https://extranewsfeed.com/a-spell-to-bind-donald-trump-and-all-those-who-abet-him-february-24th-mass-ritual-51f3d94f62f4

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
46. The fight club is in shape.
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 11:08 AM
Jan 2019

That mentally, morally and intellectually deficient resident in our WH is doomed to failure. His numbers are peeling away slower than I would like but a steady drip, drip of failure is observable and will grow into a torrent of disapproval and removal, one way or another. imo

Response to localroger (Original post)

saidsimplesimon

(7,888 posts)
8. I agree.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 07:20 PM
Jan 2019

I turn the channel if rumpy is speaking. I mute the radio on NPR if they cover 45. The narcissist delights in any mention of his name, click bait is his specialty.

Response to saidsimplesimon (Reply #8)

dem in texas

(2,674 posts)
9. Trump is mentally unbalanced and should be removed
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 07:32 PM
Jan 2019

Trump's day to day antics have made us immune to his craziness. He has lost touch with reality, lost his ability to make good judgments and is a danger to the USA. He needs to be removed before he creates a major war or incident that gets lots of people get killed.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,601 posts)
10. I hate to nitpick,
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 08:03 PM
Jan 2019

But IMO as a mental health professional, Trump is not Psychotic.

Definitely a Narcissistic PD, possible early Dementia, but not psychotic.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
11. Did you see today's presser?
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 08:26 PM
Jan 2019

He is seeing things that are not there and seeing things that are there as the opposite of what they are. I would not have used the word before today but what I saw today is a person who has lost all contact with reality, not as a persuasion strategy but as an emotional self-coping mechanism.

A skilled propagandist - which I think Trump has been most of his life - would realize that he had taken it too far, but Trump is seeing loss as gain and defeat as victory and martingaling on his losses. I checked a few online definitions and they agreed that this is pretty much the definition of the phrase "psychotic break." In this case it's not so much that the break is a symptom of an underlying, otherwise diagnosable psychosis; it's more that the break is the psychosis, triggered by stress or some other type of chemical imbalance. In this case I think we can probably all agree stress is a big possibility.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,601 posts)
19. Psychosis doesn't emerge in one's 70's
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:30 PM
Jan 2019

He’s not claiming that Lincoln is sitting next to him, he’s just a pathological liar with a personality disorder.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
25. Consider the one statement
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:48 PM
Jan 2019

The out of work government employees are his biggest fans.

Usually when Trump lies you can see what he is trying to accomplish with the lie. But in this case, it is so absurd and counterproductive that there is no positive reason, by any kind of analysis, for him to say it. If he thinks opening the government without his wall would "make him look foolish", as he said yesterday, how the hell does he think this is supposed to work?

Not all breaks with reality consist of a giant bunny rabbit or President Lincoln talking to you. In the past it has seemed that Trump was perhaps calculating and evil, maybe going a little soft in the memory department because he can't keep his lies straight, but not this head-on off the edge of the real world. This feels different.

And yes, people do develop psychosis at any age; even as an amateur I know that. All kinds of things can cause a chemical imbalance in the nervous system which causes the brain to work wrong, with simple stress being one of the big ones; and your resistance to these external influences is one of the things that gets weaker as you age and it gets harder for your body to maintain its chemical equilibria. That's not even to mention drugs, and did you hear the one about "snorting lines of adderall?"

Psychosis can be induced by a number of factors other than natural occurrence, and I'm pretty sure this is what we're seeing here.

womanofthehills

(8,702 posts)
27. I disagree - I watched my normal mother become psychotic with certain drugs
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:55 PM
Jan 2019

One blood pressure pill and she was normal. They doubled her blood pressure pills and she was telling me to stop hiding in the curtains.

Drug or Adderall induced psychosis - and we have no idea what drugs he is combining. It could be coming and going according to what and how much he is taking.

Seems like there are lots of facilities online for treating Adderall induced psychosis.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,601 posts)
41. Yes - drug induced psychosis or psychotic features of another mental illness like depression
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 01:48 AM
Jan 2019

But not schizophrenia- there's a big difference.

If Trump is indeed snorting rails of Adderall, then he could show the erratic agitation and paranoia that results, just as Hitler did from abusing amphetamines (which is what Adderal essentially is) towards the end of WWll.

GusBob

(7,286 posts)
16. Help a dummy out then
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:23 PM
Jan 2019

He said that some former presidents told him the wall was a good idea. This cannot be true.

Is it normal for a person to make up conversations that never happened?

Voices in your head is phychosis

Fiendish Thingy

(15,601 posts)
17. If he was hearing the voices of dead presidents
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:29 PM
Jan 2019

Then yes, that’s psychosis.

But he was just lying, like he always does. Even if he believes the lies, that’s not
Psychosis.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
26. You're just adopting that as an a priori assumption
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:52 PM
Jan 2019

The problem is, one of the ways you become a skilled liar is that you convince yourself the lies you are telling are true, so that you project that belief. There is a danger in that of falling through your own looking glass though. I don't think you tell the one about the furloughed employees being your biggest fans unless you really have convinced yourself that that is true, because if you were just projecting that to tell an effective lie, you'd figure out that that might not be such an effective lie.

Trump used to be a pretty effective liar, but he's losing it beause he's fallen into his own world of bullshit.

Fiendish Thingy

(15,601 posts)
42. That's not psychosis
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 01:51 AM
Jan 2019

Confabulation perhaps, more likely just more habitual, pathological lying to protect his fragile, narcissistic ego.

Diagnostic nitpicking aside, he's a sick puppy who isn't fit to hold the office.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
44. You're just stuck on the lying thing
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 09:31 AM
Jan 2019

Yeah, he's a long time habitual liar. But he comes across now as actually believing his lies rather than just flinging them for effect. Whatever you want to call it that's a phase change from what he was doing previously, and a very dangerous one. He won't stop the shutdown not because he doesn't care about the workers but because he has convinced himself that they are really not hurting. In the past reality has occasionally intruded into his self-created reality, but he was projecting very strongly that that's no longer possible.

An anology: If lies were water, the lies Trump is telling now have frozen into ice. It makes a difference -- just ask anyone who sailed on the Titanic.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
45. Please consider this...
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 09:53 AM
Jan 2019
https://www.psychguides.com/guides/psychosis-symptoms-causes-and-effects/

Is there any reason Trump's behavior is inconsistent with what this page calls "delusional disorder," and lists as a type of psychosis?

Fiendish Thingy

(15,601 posts)
47. If he truly believes his lies, then yes, he could be delusional
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 02:24 PM
Jan 2019

While there have been leaks of Trump's irascibility and ignorance, I haven't read of any insider disclosures regarding Trump actually believing his lies, in fact there is much evidence to the contrary, including in his flip flopping tweets that take opposite positions, or his changes in opinion/position when there is blowback from things like Helsinki, etc. These flip flops are to protect his ego from what Freud called "Narcissistic injury" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_rage_and_narcissistic_injury). If he was truly delusional, he would continue to insist these lies were true, in public and in private.

What he truly believes in his cold heart and empty mind in private aren't clearly known to the public, however, decades of his public statements and behavior have provided clear evidence of malignant Narcisstic Personality Disorder, with the possibility of additional symptoms of amphetamine abuse.

I think we both agree he is unfit to hold the office. If his companies were publicly held, he would have been fired as CEO long ago.

Grammy23

(5,810 posts)
18. Did he happen to mention exactly which "former Presidents" advised him on this topic?
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:30 PM
Jan 2019

I’d be curious who he is willing to name out loud. There are several living former Presidents but I can’t imagine a one of them having anything positive to say to tRumpolini about his freakin’ wall. So do tell, tRump. Who was it? And when?

We’re waiting. But not holding our breath.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
22. More likely it's a steady diminishing of cognitive function.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:38 PM
Jan 2019

His father had it, and I'm betting his son has it as well. I have read more than once about how "Trump isn't the person he used to be."

Although he's always been an asshole.

womanofthehills

(8,702 posts)
31. I don't think he does - he seems confused and all over the place
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 11:18 PM
Jan 2019

He's evil but he also seems crazy to me - like his mind is totally disordered.

John Fante

(3,479 posts)
32. A tree stump would have a 55% approval rating with this economy.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 11:33 PM
Jan 2019

You're giving Cheeto far too much credit.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
28. We've heard this about once a week
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 10:56 PM
Jan 2019

for the past two years. He's the same nucking futs that he's been all along.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
34. No, he's not the same
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 11:38 PM
Jan 2019

You keep hearing things like this every few weeks because his grip on reality has been steadily deteriorating, though. It started out as what I myself called skilled propaganda, but it's gotten less skilled and more cray-cray particularly through his second year in office. Every week has brought a new low. For me, this is the particular thing that seems to represent a phase change though. Others will have seen it sooner or might not see it until later, which is why you get the steady drip of posts like this. But hey, I just realied the guy really isn't just evil and narcissistic and a liar; he really has convinced himself of his own lies and is living in his own private Idaho where his lies are the truth and all evidence supports them.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
35. Remember his first presser?
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 11:47 PM
Jan 2019

Or the presser after Charlottesville? Stockholm? His little dance with Kim? I think he's too crazy to remember from week to week how crazy he is.

localroger

(3,626 posts)
36. Yes, I do remember those
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 11:55 PM
Jan 2019

In the past he has tended to focus on points, and lie or act weird about those points while maintaining some contact with the outside world otherwise. Lately the outside world thing has been getting thinner though and the outrageous lies more widespread and numerous. Now he seems to have abandoned all pretense that the outside universe exists; there is literally not way for him to get less grounded in reality than he was this afternoon. There was no recognition of external reality in anything he said. It's not the same; there has been a progression, particularly through the second year, and it's hard to see where it goes now except into Gotham Season 5.

VOX

(22,976 posts)
30. 45 and his cult-followers are, at the very least, NOT grounded in objective reality.
Fri Jan 4, 2019, 11:03 PM
Jan 2019

Whether or not that's too narrow a definition for psychosis, it nevertheless poses a grave existential threat to the life of our democracy, and thus, a threat to life of PEOPLE.

The American president's number one job is to PROTECT THE PEOPLE. 45, as a virtual Russian operative and a full-time wannabe dictator, has left the entire country exposed to further attack by hostile foreign powers, and a lack of adequate domestic health services.

The man is an absolute menace to all American citizens, especially those at risk. If he were president of a corporation or public institution, he would have been long-gone by now. New laws are desperately needed to prevent this from ever happening again. (Assuming the country survives the current unfolding catastrophe.)

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
40. It starts with the House and the Senate overriding his veto of a continuing resolution.
Sat Jan 5, 2019, 01:27 AM
Jan 2019

Else, the "blue flu" that struck the TSA workers will only get worse. The rank-and-file don't make much, and will move on to a different career at some point reasonably soon. Which will devastate airline travel, which will devastate businesses and tourism, as the lines become longer and longer... which will frustrate the remaining TSA workers.

Plus, can you imagine the parks and monuments closed during summer tourism season?

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