The problem is at what stage is our intransigence, which is fully justified, harming those we love and support. As I have recent said perhaps it would be wise to pay this Judas his damn pieces of silver. He is holding our fellow citizens who perform valuable services often at minimal wages hostage. It is just as gangsters do in demanding payment for the return of loved ones. Only the most callous parent would not sell every thing they posses to get their precious child or relative back.

Maybe, if even if it galls us, it is time to say we can not be party to this tragedy and we would rather be blackmailed into compliance rather than to allow you to torture our fellow citizen. I am convinced that he is a man without a conscience and therefore with out an compassion for the suffering that he is gladly inflecting on innocent victims. In fact he seems to relish it as demonstrate that he believes that the majority of those he is torturing are Democrats. It is difficult to deal with an outright evil man. Pay the ransom and bid your time to take sweet revenge when his evilness will be his epitaph for time immortal as he takes up permeant residence with the tyrants of history. Our compassion to save our fellow citizens will be judged far more favorably than any action that he may chose to take.

This is why you never negotiate with terrorists. Don't fall for the framing that Dems have ANYTHING to do with this situation.

No where have I in any way put the blame on the Democrats. This is absolute and would be analogous to blaming the parents for their child being kidnaped.

It could be very well accepted that it would be the most compassionate response to the demands of an evil monster who has totally misused his power of office and is devoid of any compassion for his victims. What parent would say that they are not going to yield to a monsters demands. Paying the demand wouldn't be the end of the story. It would in fact be the beginning. The Democratic leaders position could be fully justified by the fact that they strenuously resisted his unreasonable demand, but were not going to allow him the satisfaction of taking out his vengeance on the innocent. Just as contending that paying ransom for the return of a child would be not be judged as unreasonable even if the culprit was never brought to justice. But in this case by yielding to his demands then he would be held accountable for the situation and his actions thoroughly condemned as unjust.

I am not contending that this is the only or perhaps the best solution.

You don't really believe that's what would happen, do you? When has he ever been held accountable and been thoroughly condemned where there were any consequences to him?

To your rhetorical question, I can only answer that would remain to be seen. It is not my responsibility to charge him, try him and adjudicate the proper reprimands.

I can only observe that he was fined for discrimination numerous times, forced into bankruptcy, made to pay restitution for his is phony university scam and at present has hundreds of law suits pending. His business practices have resulted in American bankers refusing him credit forcing him seek credit in Russia. Most recently the entire Trump family was barred from ever operating a charity in the state of New York.

The fact that he has been able to operate without being prosecuted is also frustrating to me. According to a friend of mine who is a well respect attorney and a member of the legislature, Trump has been able to operate through the use of carefully constructed legal agreements to avoid prosecution for fraud. Perhaps he will be found guilty of income tax evasion. He thinks that the renew scrutiny that his entire organization is undergoing may result in discovery of chargeable offenses.

White collar crimes, he concluded are the most difficult to research and to find enough evidence for charges. Basically Trump is a conman and is taking advantage of people who have trusted him. Unfortunately, it isn't illegal unless you can charge fraud. I know of a first hand example. A friend and his wife put down deposit for a condo in Miami. They thought that it was being built by Trump. The project went bankrupt and they lost their 65,000 deposit. They were told you should have read the fine print. It states in legal lingo that Trump is only selling the builder the use of his name and is not responsible for any aspect of the project. Trump's name is plastered on numerous projects and means nothing. He is selling a brand.

Don't misconstrue that I think that this option is the most desirable. It is only one option. It would only be correct if Trump could be held accountable for his misuse of the office of the presidency. I am going to ask a Constitutional expert if Trump could be charged with abuse of power. The day I see the jail doors close will be a day I will drink to. It is the consensus of my friend and his associates that the best chance to jail him would be income tax evasion. He may have given those who are investigating him the opportunity to examine his income tax records. This is a difficult thing to accomplish and you have to convince a judge there is due cause. As for holding out to the bitter end, if that is what the workers and the Democratic Party think best if will support them with my check book. I have donated to our local food banks that are supporting those suffering the blunt of this disaster and will continue to do so.

since this insane shutdown began, I think it would be wrong to give into Tiny. If Congress agrees to give him funding for his precious wall, he would just gloat about it in his rallies and check it off his list of promises made to his base and kept. The Red Hat Society would end up loving him more than they already do, if that's possible. We cannot allow Tiny to get his way all the time by throwing tantrums that end up hurting other people.

I hate them all

which is why I don't understand the 'bothsideism' on M$Greedia

Or is this a jibe? Maybe there was supposed to be one of these funny faces accompanying.

Sometimes it's just quicker to be state your intents.

For profit media pay their pipers well.

Great thread malaise!

We just need to sit back and observe our new House doing a
great job.

We'll show you and shut it down as a Christmas present to the victorious Democratic Party and America

arrangements.
ITTMF!!!

Last edited Mon Jan 21, 2019, 12:35 PM - Edit history (3)

Old fart here. Sixty-five, “snow on the roof,” got my Medicare card and Parts B, D, F, J, K, and L-M-N-O-P. It just means that I’ve been around awhile. Long enough to observe a few things, hopefully with an awakened mind.

We CANNOT just sit back and watch, or enjoy - even when that includes rightfully enjoying our accomplishments of the last year, especially the overhaul we voted for, last November. We CANNOT AFFORD that luxury!!!

Mad-Eye Moody, the mad-dog battle-scarred wizard, and hard-bitten veteran of conflicts with the Dark Side, frequently warned Harry Potter: “CONSTANT Vigilance!!!” That, and the equally urgently “You’ve GOT to KNOW!” (That one, for the sake of being as well-informed and aware and observant as possible.)

But the “CONSTANT Vigilance!” exhortation was always shouted. For a reason. We CANNOT afford to relax. Or drop our guard. Or take a vacation. Or let go. Or roll over and go back to sleep. And DAMMIT I wish we could! But we can’t. We can’t afford to.

Hey, I know from personal experience what a long slow slog it is. How you fight doubt. You’re constantly resisting the frustration that no amount of effort seems to do any good. We worked and worked and worked and it didn’t work. We didn’t get what we wanted. We thought we fixed this. Shit - I’ve lost count of how many women on the pro-choice front who I’ve heard, seen interviewed, or read about, who complained: “I thought we had this SETTLED!” and “Why am I still fighting this shit?” Remember that photo of the protest sign “I Cannot Believe I Still Have To Protest This Shit!” ?

Well, short answer: YES. We DO. We still have to get out there and protest. And push our side. And repeat our talking points. And repeat AGAIN. And show our strength and our numbers, visually. In any and all venues and platforms and ways to reach people. And REMAIN VIGILANT. We can’t assume the problem is solved or the broken is fixed or the mess is fully cleaned up. CANNOT assume that. Can’t afford to.

And YES it’s exhausting. YES it’s frustrating. And yes, sometimes it’s damn freakin’ discouraging, dammit! Nevertheless, we can’t let up. Every accomplishment and forward move we make, there will inevitably be somebody trying to get in the way or head things off. Inevitably. There will always be counter-forces trying to roll back what we’ve gained and break what we fixed or replaced. If we sit back and enjoy the results, the opposition will not. Guaranteed the GOP and far-right are ALL working to defeat ALL of that in 2020 if not sooner.

I heard the chair of a local Democratic group the other night point out how many times WE have been our own seeds of defeat. By not remaining united in our focus. His point was strictly the “united” part - how party divisions yielded bad White House results: the presidencies of Nixon in 1968, Reagan in 1980, and The Asset in 2016. But we also torpedo our own boat when we get complacent. And lull ourselves into thinking victory is a permanent condition. It is NOT.

1: 1977 We thought we had the Equal Rights Amendment done. We got complacent within just three states of goal, but didn’t aggressively protect its path to the finish line. A monstrous 6th-Century-BC-mentality named Phyllis Schlafly stepped up, started agitating against it with all this Bronze Age messaging about threatening the sanctity of housewifery, and eventually ended the ERA’s momentum. Fail.
2: 1992: we thought we got Clinton into the White House and ENDED the Reagan/Bush era. “Everything’s all clear, right? Whew! Let’s party and then take a break that we deserve after all that hard work!” WRONG WRONG WRONG! We sat back enjoying our majorities and not vigorously protecting our turf. And who was right there to take advantage? One Congressman Newt Gingrich. With his aggressive, in-yer-face, “back-bench bomb-thrower” anarchy and his lust for power. Attacked and drove out then-Democratic House Speaker Tom Foley, leading to the GOP takeover of the House in the next midterm elections of ‘94, with him as the new Speaker in January 1995. From there he could green-light a tsunami of opposition to virtually all things Clinton, and eventually the republi-CON impeachment of Bill Clinton.
3: 2008 we thought we’d “got this” when Barack Obama got elected, and we had Nancy Pelosi as Speaker and we also had the Senate majority. Had it ALL! But only long enough to get the ACA cobbled together and not enough time to get the messaging and counter-messaging right. And two years later the freakin’ teabaggers took over and flipped the House away from us. Mind you, WHILE we were busily quibbling with each other about the fine and rough points of the ACA, either defending it OR finding all kinds of things in it to complain about (pushed by far-right media and more, to further aggravate that).
4: 2016: I’ll let that date speak for itself.

We CAN’T AFFORD to relax or drop our guard. The barbarians are STILL at the gate and zealously figuring out ways to break through and take over. Yes, be justly proud of all our wins and the momentum we enjoy at the moment. BUT AT THE SAME TIME: We HAVE TO remain in high alert, at ALL times. And NEVER rest. We can’t let a good thing today allow us to dose off and oversleep past tomorrow!

We know it can be done. The other side certainly never takes the day off.


Aw crap. Sorry about the length...

The struggle never ends - not ever.

Pelosi is doing a great job and she is the House. All the dems want
to do now is run for president, what the hell, just sit back and
watch Nancy. Nancy is not taking a day off and she sure as hell
knows more about what is going on than we do.

I am 72 years old and I cannot believe that Nancy is 78! Time flies,
doesn't it.

their drivers are always looking at their final goals - perhaps smaller gov't/larger corp, less regulation, fewer benefits and rights, etc.

The drivers have deep pockets and will spend (and withhold) as is beneficial to the goals. Adding in foreign and multi-national funds to the political action purses makes their clout so much more powerful.

The Dems try to eschew huge indebtedness to these interests, usually, generally, not always. But I think the focus on the goals is not as strong and we tend to get rather tangential and diverse.

Do we want to trade a monolithic platform like a liberal version of the Tea Party's for one of big-tent/inclusiveness? I don't know but it is hard to have the focus and cohesiveness that have the repugs have shown in those examples you showed without more strong direction.

It is the absolute truth. We allowed the gerrymandering, The lies about the ACA. Listen to a friction searching Media, who ranted about Benghazi, emails, completely ignoring the corruption of Trump and his gang.

We listened day after day to Trump lying, encouraging violence while the media loved him, encouraged him.

The fight has to be constant to win again.

Don't apologize for the length; any more concise and it wouldn't contain what needs to be said.

5: 2018 We pulled off a blue tsunami of historic proportions and yet that massive vote win got us fewer House seats than the '94 GOP takeover. This shows how much work we have to do at the state level against gerrymandering, voter suppression, and voter purges. We have to work for another wave in 2019 and 2020 or we will slip backwards again.

Trump and McConnell got their marching orders...

He is a career criminal

To be rescued at all cost. It’s easy to say “don’t give in,” but we’re not the ones going hungry. The hostage takers care absolutely nothing for the hostages. Those who think we have the upper hand in this are discounting the total lack of empathy and accountability of Republican sociopaths.

and you are correct about their hardship. but giving in to mob rule by blackmail is even worse for everyone.

My son is one of the GOP's hostages too. He's been a Democrat all his adult life and he says "Do not give in to their demands of billions for a stupid wall." He's willing to pay whatever price there is because he's a patriot.

Also, he works with many Trump voters who are "hostages" too, so how do you know which ones deserve this shutdown because of their undying support for Trump? From what he overhears at work, they'd still vote for him again.

...My Brother is a smart man, well educated and a believer in our Republic and its democratic principles. He unequivocally believes that this obscene government shutdown is 100% tRump*, and is NONE of this "both sides" shit. He well knows that the agreement to fund the government was passed damned near unanimously IN both houses of Congress and would have taken effect, IF NOT FOR TRUMP* AND HIS TITTY-BABY FIT. Further, my brother has a degree in history and is scared to death that the country -our Republic- that he loves is becoming a fascist free-for-all because of one man, and giving into tRump* and his demands is a slippery slope from which we may not recover.

his parents. The family will keep him going - we don't have a choice.

...of what we see our country becoming because of tRump*. Everything tRump* touches turns to crap, and we have a ringside seat to the destruction.

empathy as a weakness to be exploited.

in the form of peaceful protest 24/7 around the White House. Not even Faux Noise can spin that image.

the shutdown started on December 22 when the repugs controlled everything and Nancy Pelosi did not get sworn in as Speaker until January 3rd....

Oh wait, their insistence on being blind and hating math is part of their problem

I wish the Democratic Party leadrship would repeat this every time they speak about the shutdown.

That's what he wants and the rethugs are onboard with it because it would mean authoritarian one-party rule in perpetuity. Welcome to the Gilded Age, folks! Welcome to the era of Boss Tweed.

Pelosi should point out that she inherited this mess. That the former speaker allowed the shutdown to continue by refusing to allow the House to vote on the Senate's unanimously passed CR.

45 called him to the white house and promised him something to allow the government to shutdown.

Truth will out

We just finally got the topic out front and center now that it's almost too late.

At least people are waking up.

Republicans are desperate to co-opt the democrats in funding Trump’s wall.
The GOP absolutely does not want complete credit for such funding.

According to Trump, there are/have been two ways for republicans to approve the wall without votes from the democrats.
He requested that Mitch McConnell use the nuclear option which would have allowed the Senate republicans to pass the $5billion plus that he wants. Mitch refused.
Now, he says he can declare a National Emergency to get the money he wants.
Currently Trump is holding our country hostage with his proud shutdown and falsely blaming the democrats.
He has had two years to get his republican majority Congress to do it under his leadership.
There is no legitimate reason for the American taxpayer to pay for Trump's wall.

One of his foreign policy points is that other countries are taking advantage of America and we are overpaying. .
Now he wants the American taxpayer to pay for Mexico's obligation; 'Mexico will pay for the wall'.

They too were bought and they do not want any investigations

This is one big con

in every forum that they can, very clearly, concisely, and repeated over and over.

Over and over and over!

Nothing more. DO NOT FALL PREY TO IT.

They told us early on. Shutter government. Break it all down. Weaken America and Western Alliance. Crash the economy with taxes and tariffs. Empty out government and don't rehire. Appoint stooges and incompetents to executive positions. Today we saw that agencies hope that workers will quit and don't plan to replace them.

It's a coup.

when they stole the Executive Branch - now they are attempting to dismiss the will of the people re the legislative branch and in several states.

Do not budge Dems - this is way bigger than a wall.

Thats been very clear from the get-go. He & GOP enablers got the country into this mess. They need to get us out. This is in no way Dems issue given 25B is no chump change. That $ can be appropriated to a host of other very necessary things (healthcare, environmental protection, etc.) Instead of wasting tax payers $ on a freaking useless wall.
If Dems budge one bit theres no question they will use this tactic again & again & continue to hold us hostage. The idiot & mcconnell own the suffering caused. The public can see through their lies.

and our legitimately-elected President, Barack Obama.

They owned it all for TWO YEARS. And got nothing done. While making sure that little got done over the six years before that. Once they flipped the House back and Nancy Pelosi had to hand the gavel over to republi-CON John Boehner. AND, a noticeably larger gavel at that, compared to Pelosi’s.

He evidently needed (or wanted) a BIG gavel. Which says something about him.



Just sayin’.