It seems to me. But, it can always get worse.

I'll risk it.

However would be squashed pretty quickly. Still could result in murder of democrats, minorities, and women.

If we strike we must strike true, that's the only way law can triumph over criminality.

Emboldening this obvious foreign actor through fruitless but symbolic action will put us even deeper in jeopardy.

UNLESS HIS BOSS (AND HIS BOSS"S BOSS) ALLOW IT?

Does ALL-CAPS make your message more important?

knowhutimeen?

it puts the GOP on the defensive of why the allow a criminal to stay in the White House.

They will be crushed in 2020 because of it.

out of office, either after impeachment or in 2021, he will be indicted and convicted.

Otherwise the damage will be done impeachment itself as a continuing mechanism of oversight.

from the bogus Clinton impeachment.

But no, a failure to remove a criminal President will not harm Impeachment, it will harm those that allow a criminal to remain in office, i.e. the GOP.

we do.

That's their responsibility. The Senate then has the responsibility to try and possibly remove the president. If republicans in the senate don't it's not a "failed impeachment" and it will come back to bite them when Trump is put on trial anyway. It's inexcusable to let Trump be above the law just because Republican cultists refuse to uphold the law.

Is that the right's excuse/reason?

over the past two years has proven that our institutions, though threaten by this apparent treason, have been shaken but are withstanding this assault.

Justice is being delivered, slower than I and most, especially here on DU, want, but it's grinding slowly yet exceedingly fine (as the saying goes).

Mueller, the coming House committee investigations and finally the media are all contributing to cornering the asset in the WH who is trying everything he can to escape, even shutting down the system itself.

It won't work, and let the deplorables try a revolt against the army. Their assault weapons won't be but mere peashooters against what the military can deploy.

Be vigilant. Trust but verify.

Well, Trust only those that have shown themselves trustworthy. Guess that leaves out all the (R)s.

Impeach and fail, for symbolism's sake - and in so doing, tacitly normalize Trumpism ?

That's not sanity.

needed to rid the country of trump's rancid ass. It will be so convincing that the repugs in the Senate will have to approach trump as Goldwater did Nixon.

And if there is a revolt by deplorables, so be it. It will be smashed and good riddance.

There can be no backing off now.

...without the crucial tide turning in our favor in the Senate is folly, not wisdom.

The Senate may decide that his behavior is not convictable, but they'll have to have an open debate about that. And I/you may be surprised how some head-in-the-sand senators may decide that this is the moment for them to protect the country.

I don't understand how "tacitly normalize Trumpism" is any different than just letting his agenda run the course. If anything, if we just wait until 2020 or 2024 to see his removal, then we are even more "tacitly normalizing" the regime.

If you don't understand how impeaching in the House and then failing to remove this president in the Senate (after all he has done) would normalize this behavior forever, I'm not here to teach you.

Impeach Wisely, Not Impulsively.

Strike Once and Strike True.

Isn't that what is happening to the bills from the House that McTurtle won't pass unless pResident is really, REALLY, happy about them?

I'm getting a sense that there's a bit of an echo chamber here which is pushing against prosecuting until the case is already won. Just wondering where this is coming from.

That's politics.

Politics is where this is coming from.

I'm not a troll and these are my own informed opinions.

Lastly, I don't appreciate my individual right to argument being diminished as part of an 'echo chamber'. You don't need to engage in bad faith like that, I haven't earned it.

The US, UK and NATO will be successful split apart and Russia will have free rein in Europe and Eurasia.

NATO and the rest of the world are depending on us to protect us all from our own President.

Who would have ever imagined.

Last edited Tue Jan 22, 2019, 12:39 AM - Edit history (1)

Treason can not be allowed to triumph.

Treason indeed cannot be permitted, and this president has committed it in abundance.

There's a problem?

compromise etc. Perfectly fine when THEY do it. As if the Country is not ripped apart now right?

is such a disaster?

It has happened in the past and the act of impeachment has been a very useful tool of discovery.

Since this seems to be your main talking point, perhaps you could supply some good evidence backing it up.

so, that changes the equation here.

will a party-line Impeachment vote of President Asshole for myriad obvious high crimes and misdemeanors garner SYMPATHY for him in 2020?

will a party-line refusal to convict garner SYMPATHY for GOP Senators who clearly and obviously betray their oath of office?

can the American voting populace of low-information flibberdigibbets remember something that happened more than a week ago if it's not being drilled into their heads by the RW Noise Machine? something like WHY his Mob Boss Con Man ass was Impeached?

these are the questions that plague me. I think the answer to all three is NO, so a re-election bid by an Impeached-not-Convicted President Asshole is still a viable proposition, even if against the odds. I'd give him a 40% chance right now.

I still think Dems should Impeach, and before 2019 is over. It is their duty.

I take your point about the lack of political memory we seem to be experiencing but I do believe that the personality of this president demands an effective political and (d)emocratic response that is stronger than he is.

Strength, not symbolism. Nothing else will knock down a bully.

but imho the vote splits he got (esp on obstruction in the Senate (50-50)) makes his case very illustrative in the current political moment.

It's not going to be as significant as a lot of people here seem to think it's going to be.

ETA: I take that back, they voted over 50 times.

In fact that's part of the foundation of the supposed strengths of the bicameral congress.

Just have the House pass a resolution and call it a day. Same result, except it doesn't screw up the prospect of the Senate doing its job when they finally feel they have no other choice.

Any road which puts the good guys on record but doesn't exonerate the bad guys.

It may be later. Something else may make it inevitable sooner. But it's not going to be productive today.

If not by the senate than by House investigations, NY state, the FBI, etc. His lawyer got jail time ffs. Not impeaching him then having him later be convicted is even worse.

Which bring us back to when Mueller will be done. I have no idea. And even then it’s no sure bet.
I looked at the list of GOP Senators over the weekend and could only come up with about 6-8 that I felt relatively sure would vote to convict if the report fit the description of devastating.
At least 18 would be needed assuming all the Dems and I’s (Sanders and King) voted to convict. That’s a tall order when you start getting to Senators from states like Mississippi, Louisiana, Oklahoma, KS etc. I’m not sure there’s anything that would lead those senators to convict him. Even if they felt he was guilty and deserved to be removed they would be crucified by their constituents who won’t believe the Mueller report anyway.

That is a very bar set by the constitution. However successful impeachment will bring lots of satisfaction because it places tRump in the pack with only a few other presidents who were impeached, and a permanent blemish on his name.

There is a cancer in our society that must be ripped out.

the pols and pundits, sure, but not the people (any more than present) big difference .

long ago. We were ripped apart before Trump. Now impeachment is our only hope of healing.

think it will be determined it would hurt the office of the Presidency. It will be like the Kennedy assassination
maybe 75 years from now it will be released when we are all dead.

This is flesh eating bacteria.

An excellent case could be made that racists simply continued the fight in other venues.

Eom

Take those 2 different concepts and mix in TIMING and it's not an easy answer.

As I said in another thread: https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211701001

Here we are in Jan. 2019 with the Presidential Election campaign season of 2020 not far off. Without resigning or impeachment, trump will be feverishly having 2020 campaign rallies (to whip up his base) and be the presumptive nominee for most of next year. How is that going to play into the Mueller investigation? (think Hatch Act)

We have no idea when Mueller's final report will be ready. (Don't get me wrong...he's a hero in my eyes)

We have no idea how and when the unclassified portion of Mueller's report will get to the public (AG nominee Barr said it would be a Barr Report, not a Mueller report!? )

We have potential litigation, possibly up to the Supreme Court, as to whether a sitting president can be indicted. How long will that take to be adjudicated? (For those of us that think Senate repubs will possibly only be moved to vote to impeach due to a crime/felony Mueller thinks he can prove he committed in a court of law.)


Meanwhile, every single day this pathetic excuse of a man destroys our country...and we have 2 more years to go, unless he's impeached or resigns.

BTW, once the Speaker decides to open an inquiry of Impeachment in the House, and assigns the investigation to the Judiciary Committee for instance, "there is no time limit placed on their investigation and a likely public hearing would be scheduled at the discretion of the committee chair to vote on the articles of impeachment."
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/impeachment-process-works/story?id=51202880

Idea: why can't Pelosi open an Impeachment inquiry now and investigate while, at the same time, Mueller continues his investigation?

do you think when this country was founded the Founding fathers and all those who sacrificed their lives went back and forth, we went against all countries England, etc. and now we up against a foreign entity Russia, whose leader is saying we are almost finished as in the USA????? WTF. I'm sure all those who wanted to take this government down are elated foreign and DOMESTIC.


We are up against a minority now, cult 45 and McConnell posse. And a fucking sick whatever he is doing damage to Americans, the threat is from a fucking con artist. Who disrespects the American the law, US policies, its people, climate and the environment and our European neighbors.


Enough.

NY, NJ, WA, OR, CA, MI, MN and the New England states.

The power these states would bring to a new Canada would make it a world power.

Adopting the Canadian dollar as legal tender would be a first good step.

But I am sure that Russia's post posters have been told to wring their virtual hands and decry this threat to our democracy.