how much of the trouble in VZ is the result of mischief by other countries (U.S.) and corporations (U.S.)? U.S. capitalists, for example, have never wanted any kind of socialist ideas to succeed anywhere but especially in the Western Hemisphere. And of course the oil companies. Didn't Chavez and Maduro deny outside oil companies access to VZ oil fields because they wanted to keep them nationalized and use the revenues for the "greater good" of VZ? Saddam apparently found out what happens when you don't let Big Oil do what they want with your oil fields.

I don't know what to think. I fear this new guy that Drumpf supports is going to push regime change too hard and cause bloodshed if not an all-out war.

Price controls during rampant inflation making the shelves bare of food...check
Over printing money causing the million % inflation...check
Ridiculous multi-level currency controls ensuring no dollars to buy imports...check
Confiscation of foreign property driving off investment...check
Firing competent oil workers and substituting lackeys, ensuring oil production drops...check
Failing to diversify the economy from oil...check
Failing to invest in electrical infrastructure resulting in rolling blackouts...check
Pricing gas so low it's all black marketed to neighboring countries...check

Command economies have never worked.

..with personal smears thrown in for good measure, always the sign someone has lost the argument on the internets.

No, Command Economy is when the govt tries to set the prices for everything which Venz does, and with massive inflation, also caused by the govt over printing money, no one can sell at a set price with hyperinflation causing wholesale and production prices to spiral up.
Feel free to educate yourself:
https://www.thestreet.com/politics/command-economy-14653147

It's silly to blame the US for their woes, the US is Venz's biggest trading partner for both exports AND imports....so the US is not waging any economic war against Venz.

Instituting bizarre multi-level currency controls, drying up the supply of dollars for food imports:
https://www.legalmondo.com/2017/04/foreign-currency-regulations-venezuela/

Firing all the competent oil workers and replacing them with loyalists.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#9c24aa87399d

Venz. food production:


Oil production: (about their only export besides cocaine and refugees)



Great job Maduro!
LONG LIVE THE GLORIOUS BOLIVARIAN REVOLUTION!

He was an authoritarian thug and an incompetent Socialist during the Obama Administration as well.

Let's say he is all that. Does this mean that Trump gets to replace him, and send Elliot Abrams in to "promote democracy" as he did in Nicaragua?

From what I read, Venezuela has an open and transparent and heavily audited elections system which was successfully boycotted by the opposition, so successfully boycotted that Maduro won. We have a long history of what we do when Central and South American countries have election results we do not like. Names like Elliot Abrams fit right into that story line.

I am no Maduro fan, but nor am I a fan of our stepping into this. I am reading that military defector expatriates are asking us for weapons....

...but the OP appears to question the veracity of any of the accusations made about Maduro's behavior and that of his regime.

more about trump and the less than honorable history of US involvement in Central and South America.
In no way does the trump administration actually have the best interest of the people of Venezuela in mind in this new push to become involved in the politics of Venezuela and South America in general.

read up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Conduct

Exxon.

How exactly did Exxon cause the hyperinflation, the huge drop in oil production, the huge drop in food production, the spiraling crime rate (Caracas now tied for most dangerous city in the world) the jailing of opposition leaders, the bizarre currency controls drying up the supply of dollars needed for imports, the govt corruption, the censoring of the press, etc...

Also looking for a change of Venz's leader:
Canada, Australia, the EU, and 20 countries...

Against it:
Russia, China, Iran, N Korea, Cuba etc....not good company.

We have a piss poor record for nation building/regime change in Central and South America or just about anywhere else. If the people of Venezuela want change and there is enough support for that change than they should control their own destiny.

Everything about trump is about serving his own interests above all others. I see nothing to make me believe that is no less true here.

But if the US and the EU etc want to help put some pressure to help make it happen, good.

we have an incredibly poor record with our involvement in South America and trump has zero interest but his own in anything and everything he does.
No matter how bad the people of Venezuela may be living, trump has less interest in making their lives better than Madoro does. In fact, trump could not care less.

Like I said, look who's side you are on.
Russia, China, Iran, Cuba, N Korea, Turkey etc....very bad company.

The EU supports a new election.
Mexico, Cuba and Uruguay are also part of the group you mentioned.

That is also not my point. It has nothing to do with Maduro and everything to do with the fact trump getting involved with their country will do them no favors. Trump doesn’t give a fuck about PoC in our country, how much do you think he cares about them in another country?!?

There are a lot of countries that we continue to work with on a daily basis (Russia, China and Saudi Arabia to name a few) that we don’t invade despite how they treat their people. We only do it to poor countries with small militaries that we can control.

Trust me, trump orchestrated regime change is far worse than anything Maduro could possibly do.

The EU said they had 8 days to declare a new election or they would back opposition leader Juan Guaidó, since Maduro just rejected new elections they will be backing Guaidó also.

Cuba? A dictatorship that gets most its oil from Venezuela, big surprise there.


Trust me, trump orchestrated regime change is far worse than anything Maduro could possibly do
Worse then starving with no medicine in a country with the worst inflation in the world...unlikely unless he nukes the country.

What makes you think Maduro cares about PoC?
Are you under the impression only white Venezuelans are fleeing the country cause you'd be wrong.
Here some of the people fleeing to Colombia:

Trump and his buddies will completely fuck over Venezuela for their oil and piece and part out the country like a piece of meat at the market. Obviously you think trump will be their savior.

I hope you’re right but there is absolutely nothing about trump as president or in his business that supports that position.

By the time trump is done the only thing not welcome in Venezuela will be Venezuelans.

He would be trashed on DU for being so heartless and uncaring about the Venezuelan People.

Did you say in "91 that we went to war to get the oil? We took nothing. Did you say the same in 2001? We took nothing. Now the same false argument is being made.

I'm not saying we need troops on the ground fighting there. Just that we are standing with most of the world and rightfully so.

Lots of people here said that about Libya and Iraq's oil also and yet they seem to have control of it still.

And Venz's desperately needs some foreign expertise and investment in their oil fields to get production back up to where it was before Hugo.

Hopefully your good friend trump will be the hero of Venezuela just like he is the hero of Russia and North Korea.

I usually try facts and stuff but whatever.

You continue to insist, no matter what I say, that trump will be an altruistic savior of the people of Venezuela despite there being no compelling evidence based on trump’s conduct both as president and in his business, to support such a contention. Yet there is actual mountains of evidence to support the contention that the only thing trump cares about is trump.

It’s amazing that anyone would stake out a position that trump, despite everything he has done, would do anything to help anyone but himself.

Where exactly did I say that?
I did say the 20+ countries putting pressure on Maduro to abdicate is a good thing I think.
The US already sent a hospital ship to help the Venezuelans though, how do you explain that?

But there is absolutely nothing you can say that will convince me trump isn’t working an angle benefit himself or his family business in some way. The how and when may not be as plain and obvious right now but pass practice says that it is going to happen.

Hospital ship? Don’t know anything about it but nothing about trump’s foreign policy objectives would lead anyone to believe that there are not significant strings attached.

Sorry, you are never going to convince me that trump is legitimately trying to be helpful here. He advocated for the policy position that we should have just gone into Iraq and taken the oil back in the Bush Jr days...since he has been president.

I think we can all agree he's an idiot, but that being the case he couldn't do wrong/evil all the time because he is to stupid to get things right all the time, he'd do right just by accident some of the time, he's not smart enough not to.

I find this a good act for instance:
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/12/11/675356758/u-s-navy-sends-hospital-ship-to-colombia-to-treat-venezuelan-migrants
Did any other countries send a hosptal ship to treat Venz. refugees?

But illegitimate.

That said, why should we get involved?

Saudi Arabia is one of the top 5 most repressive governments in the world. And our Friend that we support. Even under Democratic Presidents. As long as we support them we have no room to criticize other nations.

The people Venezuela will work it out or not. We will only fuck it up.

But stable. Stability matters. In some countries--Russia, for instance--stability is consistently ranked in putatively accurate public opinion surveys as a higher, more meritorious public goal than freedom of speech.

SA doesn't have 1/10 of it's population on "refugee" status outside of the country. It could one day. But it doesn't.

It doesn't have endemic malnutrition. Its hospitals work. It's even trying to move away from sole reliance on petrocarbon fuel exports.

It's repressive, but in different ways. And, to be honest, many of those who are culturally more important approve. That would be the "patriarchy," which is rather different from the American variety, scaremongering and hyperbole aside.

They've also learned the Chinese lesson. You can have a lot of repression as long as you have the right liberties and benefits.

They've also learned the Soviet lesson. If you have repression and allow the wrong liberties and benefits, the country tends to collapse: The most dangerous time for an autocracy is when it liberalizes; then it's most at risk for either anarchy or something that makes the former autocracy look picayune. This lesson is two-fold. The USSR started as a repressive government liberalized; and then it imploded when a repressive government liberalized (fortunately, not as badly as Jugoslavija).

any time we meddle it seems like we end up putting in an authoritarian asshole.

This isn't trump. Funny how so many people here would rather blame a boogyman than say a single harsh word against Maduro or Socialism. Except for commie countries, he's pretty much got the whole world aligning against him. Many before trump even said a word about it.

Maduro is going down like Ceaușescu, and hopefully after that, the Venezuelan people will stop electing frigging socialist.

You know, where not wanting to get shot in school makes you a socialist according to Ginny Thomas.