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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHere's what will happen on DU when the Mueller report is released
Whenever it is available, whatever it says, and whatever might be redacted, its failure to include your pet theory will only mean one thing - that it was rigged, a whitewash, etc.. The really good stuff is in the redacted part. They never interviewed some person who has inside knowledge of the whole thing. They didnt inspect the voting machines in Kalamazoo...
Because a failure to include your pet theory could not be that it was out of scope, or just plain didnt happen that way.
One of the most irritating things in my work is when the facts refuse to cooperate with my argument. I start out with a killer argument, and by the time Im drilling down into the details, the damned facts turn on me and engage in mutiny!
But with the Mueller report - which will in fact lay out a cavalcade of corruption and disregard of the law - you dont have to blame the facts for betraying you. Instead, you can blame the people. Someone on Muellers staff perhaps, or a successful confederacy of perjurers, will be responsible for the fix. Also, a whistleblower will be dug up - some person who saw it all and will speak to your group about it for a reasonable fee.
It will all be clear to you what really happened. Not only that, but youll find out that DU is populated by paid shills who are all here to aid in the cover up by expressing skepticism about the unprovable facts you know to be true.
It will be important to make sure to get every Democratic candidate on the record about your pet theory. If they are also shills for TPTB, youll then come to realize the whole system is rigged, and that you should instead not support any Democratic candidate. Instead, you should stay on DU in order to fight the trolls and official conspiracy theorists get others to realize how theyve been deceived again by The Official Story.
All of which will be a wonderful distraction from the actual cavalcade of corruption and criminality which the report will actually disclose.
PJMcK
(22,037 posts)There are so many rumors about Mr. Mueller's report that it boggles my mind. There is no way of knowing when he will issue a report, what it will contain or how it will be received.
Meanwhile, the court cases he's filed or handed off to other prosecutors/jurisdictions grind onward. There will undoubtably be more interviews and probably indictments. Who knows when this will all end? Certainly not Trump's crew and not the news media. Definitely not those of us on DU.
Great post for a Saturday morning, sir. I particularly appreciate your humility about facts! They're tough little nuts, aren't they?
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)the SDNY investigations. trump is most afraid of them. trump can't do anything to stop them either. Just like Capone, trump is guilty of tax fraud.
onenote
(42,704 posts)The SDNY, at the end of the day, is part of (and under the ultimate supervision of) the DoJ.
True Dough
(17,305 posts)you've hit the nail on the head in your post, jberryhill. That Mueller report will be as thorough as it can possibly be and I don't know of a better qualified individual who could have carried out the work (there may be a few, but they'd be very few).
But how did you know about that rigged voting machine in Kalamazoo? Were you in on that? Should Mr. Mueller be having a chat with you???
manor321
(3,344 posts)quickesst
(6,280 posts).... on certain aspects of the Mueller report, I learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut until those facts you speak of have been established. Simple common-sense logic.
watoos
(7,142 posts)I have faith in Mueller, whatever he finds. Why do you expect him to find less? I expect him to find more.
I was worried about Barr but after hearing that he has known Mueller for 30 years, Im not so worried about him.
The sky isnt falling. In Mueller I trust.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I have no idea what he might find.
Maybe my point is not clear. While there is a lot of hopeful expectation, there will always be something that doesnt live up to those expectations for someone. That disappointment will find an unproductive and divisive way of expressing itself.
PTWB
(4,131 posts)1. The DOJ policy is that a president cannot be indicted.
2. The DOJ policy is to not release disparaging information about those who are unindicted.
I could see this policy combination being used to neuter the Mueller report.
Brawndo
(535 posts)PTWB
(4,131 posts)Brawndo
(535 posts)it was in effect until public awareness and pressure forced a change. The same will be true of enough pressure against the policy of not indicting a sitting President.
onenote
(42,704 posts)And that's even assuming that Mueller finds that an indictment of Trump would be warranted. Which is precisely the kind of assumption the OP is warning about.
MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)Is this like John McCain suddenly becoming a DU folk hero simply because he was on the other side of Trump?
These are still evil people. They are from a different political party.
planetc
(7,812 posts)Other than that, forewarned is forearmed. We have been living in this paranoid echo chamber for so long we have become desensitized to it. Not that we would deny for a moment that the official stories of several events are leaking like sieves. But the path to truth is paved by stubborn little facts. Let us treasure them.
watoos
(7,142 posts)We have learned things from court filings, but IMO, the end is near for the Trump crime family.
Trump cant win in 2020 if he makes it that far.
The only way we lose is if we fight among ourselves
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)You left out the part where therell be a gazillion threads saying exactly the same thing.
rusty fender
(3,428 posts)MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)What a prosecutor can prove in court is maybe 1/10 of the truth. If mueller fails to address facts which he believes to be true but cant prove in court, we will have the no collusion, no collusion group crowing I told you so, and Ill have to endure them just like seeing OJ at basketball games after his acquittal. I have more hope for SDNY since financial crimes are easier to prove.
watoos
(7,142 posts)MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)robbob
(3,531 posts)I am one among many here at DU who believe tRump is guilty of many terrible things over the years. He has shown us his nature too many times to deny the strong possibility of guilt. I believe he has raped young women. I believe the Russians have recorded evidence of him doing so. I believe he is deeply in dept to Russian mobsters, and has no choice but to repay them with whatever treasonous deeds they require. I believe there is also a lot more criminal activity in his past then that.
However, the question isnt what I believe, nor what WE believe, the question is what can be proven in a court of law. TRump may be stupid, arrogant and rash, but the people who pull his strings are none of those things. If Russia doesnt want the pee tapes to surface then I dont think we are ever going to see them. Likewise, if they have set up a financial web that tRump is caught in then I dont believe they have done it in a slipshod manner that can be easily shown.
I accept the fact that the Muller report is probably not going to unearth every crime that he is guilty of, and Im also prepared for the fact that the GOP and his supporters are going to dismiss whatever IS shown as part of the political game. Collusion with Russia? No big deal. Paid off a porn star and violated campaign finance laws to do so; so what, wouldnt you?. At this point all Im hoping is whatever IS revealed will prove egregious enough to oust him from office and/or change the minds of whatever moderate supporters are still in his corner hoping its all a big hoax.
MaryMagdaline
(6,855 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Zoonart
(11,868 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)I have ever read:
"One of the most irritating things in my work is when the facts refuse to cooperate with my argument. I start out with a killer argument, and by the time Im drilling down into the details, the damned facts turn on me and engage in mutiny!"
Thanks.
uponit7771
(90,346 posts)... which sucks I could care less about whether people think he's partisan will rather him careless also it just put out the damn truth.
We'll see
Autumn
(45,096 posts)K&R
Hugin
(33,148 posts)There's just so damn much corruption in the Republican Family Trump.
Sadly, there's only 24 hours in a day.
I'm only hoping to see some choice morsels clipped out on the clothes line of prosecution.
In all honesty, he seems to be operating as any good prosecutor I've observed in the past. Going after a few of the more grievous threads in great depth to maximize the possibility of a conviction. While leaving some others (that his team may be fully aware of) untouched as fodder for future investigation and/or prosecution, if needed.
What is remarkable about the Mueller team is their lack of leaks or even for that matter the foiling of outsiders divining their objectives and their perseverance in the face of all of the obstruction thrown at the investigation by Trump's lackey lawyers and by the very office of the DOJ, itself. Any lesser team would've been smashed asunder by now. That's probably why Trump is still a free man, is because, all of the previous prosecutions have been derailed by a torrent of unethical and illegal moves made by Trump's hired thugs... I mean fixers.
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)The tRump gang, which is to say the Republicon-Trump Party, are complicit and corrupt, as we know, but the leadership at the top of their mob is completely amateur at everything they do. Only reason they've hidden what they have to the extent they have so far is because of guidance from the master of spycraft: Vladimir Putin.
That amateur leadership would be DJT, princess, Uday, Qusay, boy wonder Jared (smartest of the bunch not saying much), Stone, Suckabee, Hannity, and Fox & Friends.
They have been holed beneath the waterline but still think they can defeat Mueller with propaganda.
They are sunk.
True Dough
(17,305 posts)UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)True Blue American
(17,984 posts)Is you can spot the shills the minute they beging to argue against facts.
The rule about not saying anything against Democrats is the best.
PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)then it is perfectly OK to argue the issues. The last thing we need is to have us turn into a bunch of 'yes' people.
emulatorloo
(44,130 posts)DinahMoeHum
(21,794 posts). . .allegations.
Anything and everything else not related to this specific charge has been farmed down to the Southern District of NY, the Eastern District of VA, and other federal courts.
And then there are the state courts. . .
FailureToCommunicate
(14,014 posts)So, yes. Stocking up LOTS of popcorn.
And my pitchfork and torch are next to my 'go bag' by the door.
Ready,
-FTC
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Its a combined pitchfork and torch which leaves your other hand free to throw rotten tomatoes.
PJMcK
(22,037 posts)Combining a pitchfork with a torch would be tricky. When you need to use the forked end, you have to hold the handle by the flames. That could be tricky!
Rotten fruits and vegetables is a nice touch, though.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,014 posts)cook 5 hotdogs at once! (We used to do this when having a bonfire)
N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,728 posts)Have the flames come out through holes on the tines of the pitchfork. Alone held by the handle with the tines pointed upward it would utilize the torch aspect, held straight out in front of you it could be used for shish-ka-bob.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,014 posts)could be preloaded onto tines and lobbed further!
Back to the drawing board!
Dem2
(8,168 posts)But yes, the pet theories unfulfilled will lead to much rendering of clothes.
lamp_shade
(14,834 posts)yuiyoshida
(41,831 posts)Trump in Chains wearing an orange Jump suit...maybe his family as well..
zaj
(3,433 posts)You are just a Russian troll.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)PatrickforO
(14,576 posts)who really killed Kennedy?
Just teasing.
I don't think that's going to happen, or at least hope it doesn't. Besides, who cares what we say? What will really matter when this thing comes out is what happens because of it.
Remember the objective, hanging like a big shining star right in front of us, is to get Trump and his criminal family out of office, begin cleaning up the massive mess he has created - I mean, basically the guy has dumped a crate of ball bearings on a race track and we've got to go into every nook and cranny when we are fixing it.
Then we've got to be positive and fix healthcare, make some sane and yet aggressive policies to mitigate global warming, reverse the giant tax cut for billionaires and corporations and do what AOC, Bernie and Warren want to do, which is raise the top tax rates.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)only 10 pages long, and appears to be mostly exonerating? According to the regulations, it's up to Barr to decide how much he releases to Congress, and multiple analysts have said it could be a simple letter.
What if it doesn't contain a "calvacade of corruption and criminality"?
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)His remit was only to investigate how the Russians interfered with the election, and he might not be able to link Trump personally to that conspiracy because Trump tends not to leave paper trails. I don't think Barr will suppress the report because he's been put on notice that Congress will demand it. But even if he does, cases opened by other prosecutors in other jurisdictions, including SDNY and the state of New York (over which the federal DoJ has no control) will continue.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)People in general are disposed to believe what they want to believe, and if known facts don't support their suppositions there's a tendency to assume facts not in evidence and spin a more acceptable theory from them.
But I have no doubt that Mueller has found all manner of creepy-crawlies under the rocks he's turned over, but we don't know - yet - exactly what they are. It is possible he won't find the smoking gun - the hard, incontrovertible evidence that Trump himself was part of the conspiracy by the Russians to influence the election. That could be because Trump doesn't use email and tends to speak in the "code" Cohen described: he doesn't tell you directly what to do; he just states what he wants to be true and you go ahead and see that it becomes true.
But I got to thinking about Watergate, which I am old enough to remember very well and which had me glued to the tv for hours. They never found proof that Nixon ordered, approved, or even knew about the break-in beforehand, although a lot of people thought he did. What he got busted for was the cover-up - in particular, the "smoking gun" tape showed conclusively that he conspired after the fact to have the FBI stop the investigation.
I expect that Mueller has solid evidence of a conspiracy to influence the election. Who, exactly, are the provable, indictable participants, apart from the already-indicted, remain unknown to us for now. But Trump, like Nixon, will be busted, somehow, for the cover-up, that is, obstruction of justice. And SDNY and other jurisdictions are quite likely to nail him and his sleazy family for financial crimes. I have no pet theories but I'm confident that "a cavalcade of corruption" will be discovered. I may be surprised but I don't think I'll be disappointed.
ProfessorGAC
(65,057 posts)Is there evidence to support that accusation?
Everything else in your post, I buy!
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)many of whom are happy to shill and troll for free.
When I think of trolls I don't think so much of the stereotypical Internet troll, the incel neckbeard in Mom's basement; I think of the trolls of Scandinavian folklore, who are ugly, stupid and mean, and who turn to stone when exposed to sunlight. Internet trolls need to be exposed to sunlight, too.
H2O Man
(73,558 posts)sentence two says, "paid shills." I agree with that. Just my opinion.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)No one could sincerely disagree with anything Im certain about, so the only way that would happen is if they are being paid.
These jobs are advertised all over the place and its how a lot of kids are putting themselves through college. They talk about it all of the time.
ProfessorGAC
(65,057 posts)Not only that, but youll find out that DU is populated by paid shills who are all here to aid in the cover up by expressing skepticism about the unprovable facts you know to be true.
That's a paste from the OP
If that's supposed be sarcastic, it was a weak effort
I also notice the OP was unwilling to engage.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)We probably know or suspect more than Mueller's report will include. GOPers have done nothing to date.
I still believe trump will not run in 2020, for a number or reasons. Although that would remove the threat of trump having another term, it allows GOPers to nominate a substitute who'll promise to right the wrongs of trump. But the GOPer candidate will be beholding to the same ignorant white wing racists that elected trump.
But the OP is exactly right that a lot of "theories" will not be addressed in the report and people will claim it's rigged. It's rigged because of the GOPer Senate that could/should have acted by now, but has chosen to disregard everything that is evident from trump's incompetence, trump wanting to enrich himself, the trump crime family, and worse.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)I'll be fine.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Your local shelter has lots of theories looking for a forever home.
Iggo
(47,558 posts)I'd never be able to give it the constant attention and care it requires.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Joe941
(2,848 posts)The report is indeed rigged.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)and in this case that would have to meet the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt - he won't identify Trump as having committed a crime. Since Trump doesn't use email there isn't likely to be a paper trail relating to the Russian election conspiracy. And since he talks in the "code" Cohen described, it might be hard to find an instance where he directed someone to do something. The best possibility of that would seem to be the conversation on AF1 where Trump and others constructed a bogus explanation for the Trump Tower meeting. However, keep in mind that Mueller's job is to investigate how the Russians interfered with the 2016 election, not to bust Trump. And in light of the DoJ opinion letters relating to the indictment of a sitting president, all he is likely to do is set forth facts, if he finds any, connecting Trump to a conspiracy.
Trump's biggest legal problems will be with the investigations taking place in SDNY, since financial crimes almost always have extensive paper trails. And bank fraud has a ten-year statute of limitations. There's also the possibility of violations of state law, particularly in New York, over which the federal DoJ has no control. I'm also wondering whether a state can indict a sitting president, since the DoJ guidance letters don't apply, necessarily, to state prosecutions.
But anyhow, if Mueller doesn't accuse Trump of a crime it doesn't mean the investigation was rigged. It means only that he couldn't find evidence sufficient to support prosecution.
mercuryblues
(14,532 posts)has evidence to support it.
trump violated the law when he conspired with Stone. Those dots have been semi connected through Mueller's filings.
from Stone's indictment:
Certain Netyksho defendants, through a fictitious online persona they created, Guccifer 2.0, also interacted directly with Stone concerning other stolen materials posted separately online.
The Netyksho indictment: details how Russian military intelligence hacked the computers and how the emails were released.
https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download
From Cohen testimony:
In July 2016, days before the Democratic convention, I was in Mr. Trumps office when his secretary announced that Roger Stone was on the phone. Mr. Trump put Mr. Stone on the speakerphone. Mr. Stone told Mr. Trump that he had just gotten off the phone with Julian Assange and that Mr. Assange told Mr. Stone that, within a couple of days, there would be a massive dump of emails that would damage Hillary Clintons campaign,
Mr. Trump responded by stating to the effect of wouldnt that be great,'
FakeNoose
(32,639 posts)... but we also aren't trolls either. Many of us have been following this story since June or July of 2016. The rest caught up after the November 2016 election. I don't think I like the unfriendly (or even condescending) tone of this post, jberryhill. However I do respect your legal knowledge and I've read your many previous posts with interest, so I'm going to let this pass.
I believe that DU will receive Robert Mueller's final report with interest and open arms.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)This is simple really, if we are allowed to see every word of the report prepared by Mueller, I will be completely satisfied as to what he was tasked to do, regardless of the outcome. If not us, our representatives, Democrats.
Much more will follow in New York.
FakeNoose
(32,639 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)My very brief research on the question didn't yield an answer, but I'm sure someone must have thought of the possibility of the state of New York indicting and prosecuting Trump for various financial and tax-related crimes and not waiting until he's out of office to do it. The Office of Legal Counsel's opinion letters advise against it, but I don't believe those opinions are binding on states (and aren't actually binding even on the DoJ - they're just opinions). The Constitution would be controlling, of course, but it's silent on the issue. That would certainly be an interesting development. Do you think they can do it?
Iggo
(47,558 posts)I don't know if the base assumption of the law is "It can unless it can't" or if it's "It can't unless it can."
If it's the first one, then it would seem to me that the states can indict whoever they want. Kind of like the U-turn rule of driving a car. If it doesn't say you can't, then you can.
If it's the second one, then things get icky.
So again, I'm no expert. I'm just trying to logic my way through this. Maybe it's one of those "...powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people..." type of deals.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)but I'm a retired lawyer and I once taught a constitutional history course. I've been out of the biz for a long time, though, and I'm hoping someone who's more up-to-date has a theory. I think it can be done but of course it would be litigated.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)South Carolina, Abraham Lincoln
onenote
(42,704 posts)And I doubt that any state will be willing to do it since they would be buying into a lengthy, extended legal battle. And I question whether we should want any state to be able to indict a president. It's a precedent that could easily be abused for partisan reasons by red states.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,719 posts)violated the laws of a state, wouldn't the state, through its AG, have an obligation to prosecute that president, just as it would any other violators?
onenote
(42,704 posts)It might be a better strategy to wait until Trump is out of office. Even if there is a statute of limitations issue, there would be an argument that the SoL tolls while the president is in office.
forklift
(401 posts)Hekate
(90,705 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And any crime not directly related to Russia is being handed off to other investigators.
onenote
(42,704 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)One time, I was representing someone in a vehicular accident case. After reviewing the facts, I suggested to the person that the accident could not have happened as it had been described by him to me by my client because certain evidence supported a very different version of the truth.
My client insisted that I was incorrect, and that I was not interested in finding out the real facts.
Prior to the hearing, a witness was located who corroborated what I had found and refuted what my client claimed had happened.
It can be interesting to watch how people can construct something to fit their preferred narrative.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,343 posts)If even that much is made public.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,348 posts)My pet theory is that Mueller's report will consist, mostly, of dry descriptions of actions already taken and known.
My hope is that there will be a flurry of indictments just before the summary report is made available, and that these will either include dirty Donald or will spark his resignation.
My expectation is that House investigations will continue until either impeachment begins or election day 2020 overtakes us. I also expect state-level investigations to continue until criminal indictments are handed down, followed by arrests and arraignments.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Some rando on Twitter said something 16 months ago that isnt front and center in the report, so clearly Mueller was sitting on Putins lap and dictating from a translated Russian script.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)telling me someone is about to be indicted, someone is about "sing," I have a friend in the FBI, the investigator/prosecutor is playing intergalactic 6-dimension chess, etc.
Although I love you all, I've also learned that about 99% of these types of posts end up being click/recc bait bullshit. And in this particular case the worship of Mueller is especially disturbing. He is a neocon facist with the rest of them; I expect nothing from him.
I am planning on nothing, but hoping for everything.
Response to MadDAsHell (Reply #86)
oxbow This message was self-deleted by its author.
oxbow
(2,034 posts)According to Seth Abramson, AG Barr will offer a brief summary to Congress - possibly with redacted excerpts . And Ive seen nothing else saying otherwise.
True Dough
(17,305 posts)Here's one of many such threads that will ensue, questioning whether Mueller is a Republican puppet:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211942823