Last edited Fri Aug 24, 2012, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

As I have asked before, what is more important, Democratic principles or Democratic politicians? I voted for Bill Clinton twice. I now realize that that was a mistake. He has been betraying US working people ever since.

He was absolutely correct about the giant sucking sound of middle class jobs leaving the country and the death of the middle class.

Ross Perot didn't even have a platform.

bragging about.
It's not just about HOW MANY jobs you create. The kind of jobs matters too.

President Bill Clinton did a lot for the middle class and the poor, including creating jobs. Were there mistakes? sure. No Presidency is perfect, especially when you have to factor in Congress. It's not like we live in a Dictatorship.

...other than put their living wage jobs on the expressway out of the country?

So because a so-called Democrat (I wouldn't call him that) had a huge hand in destroying the middle class we can't talk about it???

Do you speak for the DNC ? Does your definition of a democrat coincide with other democrats ? Do you think the middle class had anything to do with the demise of the middle class? Soccer moms, Joe the plummer,visual aid experts,come on.

giant sucking sound of middle class jobs leaving the country. He was right on target back then I thought. I was working in a company where many of the high-tech jobs were moving offshore, as well as IT, and manufacturing was a done deal, gone.

now than back then, so I bet I would think differently if living that period again. The CEO of our company was in favor of him so that probably influenced me some.

my private little protest. I knew he couldn't win and I was absolutely not going to vote for either of those assclowns, and I think it's wrong to stay home and not vote at all. Looking back, there have been many elections when I wrote in a candidate as a way of protesting the crappy choices we usually have.

Infomercials he put on the air, at least in Texas?

He actually did have a platform and detailed it. I discarded the VHS tapes last year, on which I recorded his platform on. Among them was to remove the revolving door Bush, Sr. set into place.

Our trade negotiators were giving information to foreign nations in the middle of trade agreement negotiations. They sold American interests out while they were charged to argue for workers and manufacturing here.

Some quit their jobs and went to work for other countries. He said they were committing economic treason. If I had the tapes, I'd detail it but he was derided for being old fashioned.

And it doesn't matter any more. The treaties have been signed and all Presidents since Bush, Clinton, Bush, etc. have to go along. This debate is pretty much over with.

As far as Clinton having done a lot of things people don't like, a lot of people who have profited from those trade agreements don't care.

And there are more than some people might think, that I've met over the years, along with those who were harmed by the treaties. Now we have to rebuild in light of the situation at hand.

For my own part, I was not harmed at all and did not benefit from Clinton. But this was a better country then. And I happily voted for him.

than Clinton
Perot was a more protest vote since I knew he would not win but would not use that kind of vote today or even Gore /Nader - Bush2 seemed bad from the get go

me of being a wise-guy jerky frat guy that got through because of his father. I didn't like the entire Bush entourage.

the power that would be held by the likes of him and Cheney and well......guess I had a right to scared !!

Cheney, I saw no humor in him.

when Perot had a thing going with them, before he broke off and named it EDS. He told me Perot was such an asshole they gave him a fortune to go the fuck away.

Just throwing that out there.

Julie

While Bill Clinton was facing impeachment, many US STEM workers all across America were calling our congressmen supporting Bill Clinton. Little did we know that Bill Clinton was in the background working against our interests, betraying US STEM workers by tripling the number of H1B visas issued.

He betrayed US working people all across America in every profession, whether it was the H1B visa, or NAFTA, or giving China the most favored nation trading status, it was total betrayal.

Bill and Hillary betrayed US working people.

into Little Rock.................And Clinton had Dept of Commerce Secretary Espy's plane crashed........And Clinton had Vince Foster killed, too!

And we never did find ALL the bodies, either.

everyone as to the future of the US and was dead on.

You will hear the giant sucking sound as jobs leave this country.

how liberal of you.

I had no idea about his stance on gays. It wouldn't have mattered.

so tell me why you should matter to me?

That's not what I meant.

You know this is DEMOCRATIC Underground, right? We generally care about the civil rights of our fellow Americans around here, and factor that into our voting decisions.

It wouldn't have mattered about his stance on gays because he wasn't going to get elected anyway. My vote for him was purely out of concern for middle class jobs leaving the country because of NAFTA.

So I take it you're sitting this election out? Because, you know, President Obama has a "kill list" circumventing due process. How's that for "civil rights"? Sitting this one out???

Listen, why don't you write a letter to whoever is in charge of letting Bill Clinton speak and/or make commercials on behalf of President Obama and vent your single-issue spleen there? I'm sure you could get a handful of people from this thread to co-sign on it.

Unfortunately the rest of us have to consider more than just one thing when we vote.

Oh, I just saw your edit. Calm down, buddy.

What issues are you weighing that count more in your mind?

But so are a few other things. For example, I'm a woman. You may not have noticed the metric ton of legislation that's been popping up state by state that discriminates against people like me directly, but I think it's pretty important. I think the fact that our social safety net has been ripped to shreds is pretty important. I'd like to see the ACA maintained and improved. All of these things are directly related to the economic life of the middle class. The middle class (whatever that is -- at what income level does it begin and end, huh?) is largely made up of women and children.

What did ol' Ross Perot have to say about anything like that? Precious little, if I remember correctly.

Don't you dare lecture me about what's important, Matmar.

livelihoods.

democratic party is increasingly all about the top 20%.

Ross Perot on Civil Rights
1992 & 1996 Reform Party Nominee for President




Affirmative action is “squishy” - education is key
What chance does a disadvantaged child have if the neurons are shut down? You want to change America in one generation? Cut out all these squishy little meetings and get out on the street and fix the problem. Now, to have that child’s brain fully tapped, that’s the key to that child’s success. But if that child never got wired -- in effect, the neurons never got connected -- all the affirmative action in the world can’t fix that.
Source: National Press Club interview , Jan 15, 1998

Zero tolerance for sexual harassment
Women will make up a significant part of your workforce. Make sure you have a company you would be proud to have your daughter work for. Have zero tolerance for sexual harassment or vulgarity. Personally fire anyone who violates these principles.
Source: My Life & Principles for Success, by Ross Perotp.124 , Sep 25, 1996

Gay rights are individual rights; fund AIDS blitz
On social issues, Perot did not fit the stereotype of the conservative Southerner. He was, in fact, pro-choice on abortion (“Yes, it’s a woman’s choice”); for gay rights (“We are a country of individual rights, and it’s that simple to me”); in favor of gun control (“I can’t believe the gun lobby wants the crazies to have machine guns”); and for increased AIDS research (“Now, we’ve got to really blitz and get it done.”)
Source: Citizen Perot, by Gerald Posner, p.257 , Jul 2, 1996

Calling NAFTA opponents “racist” is a smear tactic
[The premier myth used by NAFTA proponents is that] NAFTA critics are racists. The quickest way to discredit a critic, discount an argument, or intimidate an opponent in US politics is to label that person a “racist.” It happens time and again because it works. Once a prominent official makes the smear, it is repeated by the media, and the victims are then forced to prove they are not bigots. The accusers are rarely criticized by the media.
The “racist” card is already being played by the pro-NAFTA advocates. High-level administration officials are telling reporters in “off the record” interviews that NAFTA opponents are racists. Several Members of Congress are making similar slurs in public. It is, of course, all planned and coordinated. Politicians who claim otherwise should be asked to explain such demagoguery to their constituents.

The fact that American workers don’t want their jobs moved to Mexico is not “racist.”

Source: Save Your Job, Save Our Country, by Ross Perot, p. 65-6 , Jan 1, 1993

Homosexuality is an individual right
Contrary to popular opinion, he openly favors gay rights. In a recent interview, Perot declined to classify homosexuality as a sin. Instead, he said, “We are a country of individual rights, and it’s that simple.” In reference to promiscuity, sodomy, fornication, and extra-marital affairs, he said, “There are all kinds of ways for people to have relations and not create human life.” He went on to recommend a stronger commitment on the part of government to discover a cure for AIDS

and gave the answer of no. I know this because I gave serious though to voting for him until he said that. on edit it was 20/20 and Barbara Walters

http://www.qrd.org/qrd/misc/text/queer.state.of.affairs-FRANK.BRUNI

I didn't even read the thread before I posted about Ross Perot.

Well dude--- you have zero credibility.

thanks for playing.

Good luck with the other options.

Which is worse? The enemy or the traitor? With the enemy, you know their position. There is honor in telling someone your position when they disagree with you. The traitor tells you one thing, and then quietly works against the principles that they supposedly supported.

I argue that the traitor is worse than the enemy. I support the principles of the Democratic Party even when the leaders don't. When the leaders do not support the principles of the Democratic Party, it is my belief that we have an obligation and a responsibility to identify the leaders that are traitors to the principles of the Democratic Party.

That makes us hypocrites. We are complicit!

You can't be so naive as to think politicians are gonna stop playing politics. There are many things that Dem Pols have done that piss me off, but I'm not going to slam them on DU. We have an obligation to stand together and reelect this president, hold onto the Senate and win back the House. That's the only obligation we have right now. Get your priorities straight, because the alternative is a long dark tunnel.

I see the need to support the principles of the Democratic Party at all times, not just when there is no election. As the Democratic Party adopts more and more policies of the Republican Party, I find it less likely to support the politicians of the Democratic Party.

If you would rather support the politicians of the Democratic Party, fine. Others can support the principles.

Come back after November and we can chat.

While Clinton did push through the '96 Telecom Act, which did great harm to the cause of having honest media, he wasn't responsible for the rise of Rush, or even others of his ilk. That would be Reagan, when he repealed the Fairness Doctrine. That is what let loose the flood of hate radio.

This guy is a scumbag of the highest order.

He practically killed the middle class all by himself.

The erosion of the middle class had been underway for a good twenty years before Clinton took office.

Yes, he probably did more than his fair share, but there is no way that you can accurately say that he killed the middle class all by himself.

millionaires during the time the rich paid more tax since DDE's 90% tax ,and that was Slick Willy's reign.Did you get that from the Kkkarl Rove book on American History ?

a tech bubble helped move SOME people out of the middle class into the millionaires club if you bought Microsoft stock for pennies. Then that bubble burst.

Whoop dee friggin doo. SOME people moved into millionaire status while the middle class got decimated.

And we even cleaned up that mess, temporarily by the end of the Clinton administration, then came Shrub.

Gas was affordable and there was a sense of well being as far as wages vs inflation, Cigarettes where the only drastic price change.

Yawn.

Nothing happening in those three terms at all. Nope.

Last edited Sun Aug 26, 2012, 09:19 AM - Edit history (1)

After 12 years of running this country in to the ground, they didn't want to stop.

More banks went bankrupt when Raygun was President than during the Great Depression.
The Saving & Loan debacle was just unfolding in 1987 before Black Monday occurred when the stock market fell apart that October.

The bleeding didn't stop until Clinton got in to the White House in 1992.

Or don't you want to admit it'd be Clinton?

You are from NYC. This guy has filed for bankruptcy AT LEAST 62 times. He cannot pay his taxes, but somehow he has been able to find a way to funnel millions of dollars into the pockets of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

http://www.nritoday.net/bankruptcy-law/773-fdic-targets-ss-chatwal-3-indian-banks-get-powerful-ally

Staggering.

president. And we all know he wasn't really a liberal.

But I think you'll have a tough time convincing most DUers that he was the sole cause of all our current troubles. Some of us remember twelve years under Reagan and Bush 41. And we all remember Bush 43.

I guess it's the timing of your outrage that puzzles me. It's over a decade since Clinton was in office. We've lived through two horrific Bush terms since then, and now Obama is running for his second term. Even if you get a bunch of people to say, "hey, you're right! Clinton sucked," what are going to accomplish?

Ol' Bill does inspire strong feelings in people. The Perot voters have woken from their 20-years-sleep and are all over this thread.

at a place called Democratic Underground.

This thread is exposing all sorts of non-Democrats and highlights the flaws in the jury system.

.

Bush can't even show his face at the other convention

Clinton is welcome because he's a smooth talking snake oil salesman.

Whatever works to get Obama back in office I guess.

You could just turn the TV off when Clinton is speaking, I guess.

Of course I want Obama back in office.

Bill Clinton speaking about the middle class is enough to gag a maggot.

His appearance might help heal the wounds of the Democrats who left the party over Obama getting nominated instead of Hillary, as they adored Bill.

This is about winning this election and it requires a strong turnout and not just from selected groups. Anything that depresses turnout is not good, anything that promotes it will help re-elect Obama.

Despite Clinton's actions you say he did here, has he not continued be approved by and still liked by the majority of Democrats?

I gather he was asked to speak there by someone who wanted him, huh?

they are not North AMERICA.

Welfare reform worked to put more into private jobs.

Glass-Steagall didn't have jack-shit to do with the financial collapse. Lehman, Bera, Merrill, WaMu, IndyMac and a thousand others that failed NEVER tried to combine I-banks with deposits.

Telecomm 96 broke up old monopoly companies.

Your list is pure hackery.

Who said China is in North America? Did you read the list? Did you see Permanent Most Favored Trading Status for China???

Telecom of '96 ALLOWED FOR THE CONSOLIDATION of radio stations. Ever heaqrd of Clear Channel????

Japan already was. So was South Korea and Taiwan. Do you want tariffs on Japan?

And earth bound radio is a shitty dying business. Only 3 million people listen to right-wing bullshit a day.

So you acknowledge that your argument about the Telecom Act of '96 was in error with your weak reply of "earth bound radio is a shitty dying business. Only 3 million people listen to right-wing bullshit a day"

rich through production and manufacturing.

including the us.

A stunning report released by the University of Michigan’s National Poverty Center reveals that the number of US households living on less than $2 per person per day—a standard used by the World Bank to measure poverty in developing nations—rose by 130 percent between 1996 and 2011, from 636,000 to 1.46 million.

The number of children living in these extreme conditions also doubled, from 1.4 million to 2.8 million.

The reason? In short: welfare reform, 1996—still touted by both parties as a smashing success.

(It's bipartisan goodness! Your immediate clue that it's by, for & of the 1%ers and their gophers).

The report concludes that the growth in extreme poverty “has been concentrated among those groups that were most affected by the 1996 welfare reform.”

The law created the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) block grant, replacing Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), which had guaranteed cash assistance to eligible families since 1935. Prior to welfare reform, 68 of every 100 poor families with children received cash assistance through AFDC. By 2010, just 27 of every 100 poor families received TANF assistance.

“There’s a growing number of families out there—through the combination of time limits and sanctions—who have no cash whatsoever, they’re just surviving on food stamps,” he said. “The housing conditions—people are doubling, tripling up even in little trailers. These kids are hungry, they’re sleeping in chairs, or makeshift beds, crammed together. They can’t afford transportation—they’re stuck out in these communities with no way to go anywhere or do anything.”

http://ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2012031009/lets-get-straight-welfare-reform-was-failure

Another woonnderfullly good result of welfare deform was moving more adults and children onto the disabled rolls (SSI) & getting them onto those pharmacorps drugs -- one of the few ways to get support under our wonderful new spiderweb safety net in our wonderful new postmodern smoke & mirrors offshored economy.

Bill Clinton Stars In New Obama Ad: 'This Is A Clear Choice'

Yep....

Does that mean they are both the same on everything? Maybe in your world.

That's not what I said.

It is a moot issue now.

Both parties are anti-heroin too. So what?

FDR knew that trade was good for the middle class. That's why he lowered the high tariffs that republicans enacted in the 1920's and 1930 then pushed the creation of GATT to keep tariffs low to promote trade after WWII. Of course, he also knew that even more important to a healthy middle class are high/progressive taxes, strong unions, effective corporate regulation and, though he was not able to achieve it, an effective public health care system.

From 1880 to 1980 republicans were the party of high tariffs and restrictive immigration (they still are) while Democrats were the party of low tariffs and liberal immigration. I doubt that if FDR were alive he would reflexively now oppose low tariffs (or liberal immigration legislation) in reaction to the flip-flop of the republicans to agreeing with FDR's policy on trade.

Dude....you helped to destroy the AMerican middle class. Get real.

Hey, if Clinton opening his pie hole and speaking on behalf of Obama can help get Obama re-elected then great. I hope it works. But don't blow smoke up my ass and act as if you weren't instrumental in helping to destroy the American middle class, because you were.

He betrayed US working people all across America. Is he better that W? Yes, but that is no consolation.

of us said "Uh, isn't that a really bad idea?" By and large we were told to commit autofornication.

And here we are.

Same as it ever was.

...thank GAWD the deficit was taken care of when Bill Clinto left office and handed it off to Bush to blow up...

Really??? That makes you feel better about what he did to the middle class????

Blaming Bill Clinton for the tax cuts that wrecked the economy and that happened under Bush is pretty pathetic.

had no skills at all. However, stupidity can be a problem.

.

tempt me away.

To date, the best years for me financially/economically etc., were 1997-2001

I'd vote for Hillary too.