But I have faith in those who have sworn an oath to the Constitution and believe they will annihilate any attempt at overthrowing our government,

Many of them are itching to kill someone with that AK47 they have been fondling for so long.
If someone says they want to start killing people I take them serious regardless of what I think of them.
They talk that shit because we let them...and we say nothing and that makes them think they have intimidated us...a dangerous thing to do with a bully.

so the next thing they'd know, a ton of POLICE-fired bullets would be flying their way...

Good Luck With That, little murderers wanabe.

military forces, they'd get smoked! A few guys with combat experience might be dangerous to National Guard troops but most of them would freak out. No one knows, especially me, if they could even have the balls to poke their head up and shoot back, unless they did it before.

Many of them talk tough but let them have to spend any time in the field against actual trained troops and their fat, out of shape asses will be gassed in about 5 minutes.

More than a few individual conservative idiots have shot people in Churches or flown airplanes into government buildings in Texas.

I see it this way.

After the 2008 election they threatened secession and occasionally violence.
As the Tea Party came to power, and especially beginning in 2010, the threats of watering the tree of liberty become more open.
In 2012, we have had repeated instances where their answer to Obama winning is armed rebellion.

This is a progression to greater and greater violence. It makes it conceivable and, eventually, inevitable.
The conservative population is getting itself worked up to go to war if they are not given the reigns of power.

It may take more time, but unless something is done to tone things down, it will happen.

Personally, I don't think it will last long.
The militias wondering around in the forrest playing solider will be decimated by the U.S. military.

It's just talk by blow hards.

There will always be a few unstable crazies acting individually.
But that's just crazy people in general. Look at the theater shooting.
Thought he was the joker.

Big talk, and no one willing to lead the "charge into the teeth of the withering fire" (Hogan's Heroes reference!) ...

Cheeto munching losers with grease-stained parachute-sized shirts, screaming "AMMMURRRIKA!" while chicken hawk music like that of Daryl Worely plays in the background.

These angry rednecks are too scared to do anything. They're passive aggressive pieces of smelly trash that bring up the civil war hyperbole because they're not intelligent enough to do anything else. It's the equivalent of primates flinging poop at each other.

I will continue to have no respect for them because they have shown no indication of being serious. They're screaming man children throwing temper tantrums when they don't get their way.

Civil war? Ha. They can't even wipe the stale potato chips off their belly, and throw the used budweiser cans that litter their houses away.

but if you asked MOST Americans oh around December of 1859 if the South would actually, cross your heart, well do it... you'd hear the same opinion. It is all big talk.

Well I hope it stays in the big talk territory, but I trust it won't. Civil wars tend to have cold phases. We are in the cold phase.

just as I cannot stop a hurricane.

I know how bad a civil war is... I dare say probably better than most. But the forces are in place and are working their way to one. It could be stopped, but I think we missed that train a while ago.

It is not fear mongering to realize that we are going there.

The red states, almost without exception are moocher states (receiving more govt benefits than they pay in taxes, low education, high teen pregnancy, high divorce rates, highest poverty, lowest income.

If there were a clean way to go back and let them "win" the Civil war, I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

But let's get real. The people who are actually serious about a teabagging "revolution" are probably numbered in the hundreds or few thousands. They are the fringe of the fringe.

The broader group of teabaggers are mostly white men who have strong racist attitudes, although they all insist their aren't racist, they just think well you know, Obama isn't legitimate. But liberals aren't their problem. Their problem is they are uniformly minimally employable with social skills to match their intelligence level. Their only claim to standing was their whiteness. And now, whether they realize it or not, they are becoming a minority group. That is what is killing them, although most have not faced that yet.

This will continue. Each election is going to be more and more difficult for them. "This ain't 'MY' America !!!"

Get used to it, teabaggers. It is probably too late for you, but maybe there is still time to see about bringing up your children with an education that will allow them to work in a society where there is no majority race. And if you don't do that, well, your liberal friends are fighting to maintain the safety net that you will end up in.

You're welcome.

I think there is no potential for a "civil war." I don't think we're even close to the cold phase of one. Every Limbaugh-listening Republican I've ever met is always the same personality - full of hot air, and unable to "put up" or "shut up." They're screaming whiners, and their abilities are highly overestimated.

The far-right screaming for a war is truly laughable. It's the best example of passive-aggression. They're cowards at heart, which is why they wait for others to do for them what they would never have the courage to do.

Those guys, and rarely gals, you are correct. The ones I am talking about are usually NOT rush listeners.

Here is the problem for the "left," it cannot believe this is going on. Look at some of the things people post. Those cheeto eating, basement living, right wingers! We call that underestimating.

They mean it, for real. I know this is hard to believe, but they do.

And as to cold phase... we are free to disagree. We are now facing with forces that are leading to one, my opinion, seeing all the parallels to the actual, honest to goodness, two civil wars in US History. The first we like to call American Revolution, but in the South it WAS a civil war. In fact, it was in the North as well.

As well as the second civil war...

For the record, I am not looking forwards to one. Wars are not nice, and civil wars are all but civil.

Alas there are incidents that you may discount... but we have increasing levels of violence, including planes flown into IRS offices, and people walking into museums and shooting people up, and a few events where terrorism, the real kind, was involved, including a recent shooting at a certain Temple.

Those, given the pattern, could be seen as prelims

By the way, when it starts, I expect a fast uptick in violence, and after that going back to asymmetrical warfare, since quite frankly... it will NOT be the blue and gray scenario, and if it is that, it will last a couple of weeks, and then go into the kind of low level terrorism... that is the mark up of quite a few civil wars in the modern period.

You're kidding right? Back then the South had more or less comparable weaponry to the North, give or take a few more cannon here or a few more rifles there. But today none of these tough talking buffoons have anything near the firepower of the National Guard even. And if you bring in the US military . . . the Army, the Air Force, and the Marines, any puny little revolt with the average, out of shape, right wing couch potatoes armed with AK-47s or what have you are no match against modern tanks, artillery, trained troops units, combat helicopters, drones, fighter planes, bombers, etc. There's no chance of success even if they try it. If some attempt it it'll be put down in a matter or hours. Maybe, and that's a big maybe, days, if they retreat to the woods and have to be pursued.

like most modern civil wars the term asymetrical warfare will be one that you will become utterly familiar with. You are right that the early stage will be destroyed this fast... I give them two weeks, I am charitable. But after that... you think there are no methods? Ask the Iraqis, it worked... need I mention a few other wars like that where the technologically superior army faced an enemy using methods for which they have trouble with?

Blue-gray, not so much.

It ain't gonna happen. Asymetrical warfare and all that in a modern society, it's been tried in Northern Ireland. They went at it for years against the British but were ultimately put down as society continued. There aren't enough of these blowhards with enough courage. Where were they at the Sikh temple shooting, or right after it if they are so gung ho to get it on? Not enough them who will actually do anything but talk and post dire warnings.

that they actually had a settled political fix to the problem? I mean like most wars where neither side can achieve total victory? The Dayton Accords were not precisely about the IRA losing all access to the political system. Perhaps I missed it, but they now have full access to the political system, which for the record they did not have before all that "fun."

Actually that is ONE example of how civil wars end in modern times... with a *gasp* settlement, at a negotiated agreement.

I know people really do not want to believe it... and trust me, I ain't looking forwards to it. Civil wars are all but civil... but the forces are in place and I can do as much to stop it, as a hurricane.

Do you think a few hundred, maybe thousand, off the grid, or even hiding in their homes in suburbia disgruntled citizens have the wherewithal to start a civil war against the United States government? Dream on. They may blow up an abortion doctor's office or ambush some policemen but once the government turns their forces on them forget it. Ruby Ridge anyone?

I am talking social forces that are under way. I am talking of a process that can be predicted and happens before civil wars.

Denial is part of the process by the way. But the current process of dehumanization is part of it.

I can't tell you who exactly will lead this, suffice it to say if we reach 1/3 of the population I will be shocked, and that is a pretty high number as is.

Statistically during the first civil war, (American Revolution) 1/3 were against, 1/3 were for and 1/3 were neutral. That had high participation levels. Modern civil wars tend to see less active participants.

you are wrapping your head around the concept of insurgency and asymmetrical warfare, in either urban or suburban scenarios.
First, don't think people will march in brigade formation to a Picketts charge, I will not get into specifics but you do know that military bases are predominately in the South, as are dependents.
Also you actually foresee CAS dropping snake and nape on combatants lodged into oh, lets say Alpharetta Georgia?
IEDs, poisoned water sources, and food stocks, refineries are soft targets, as are most forms of electrical energy production. Food transportation? Hospitals?
There are thousands of ex door kickers being discharged everyday. We can't close and engage with the Afghanis.
remember a guerrilla has the initiative and gets to choose the terms of battle.
I am sure the good and hardworking people of the Weimar republic laughed at the Freikorps as well.

Beirut and Sarajevo were both beautiful and modern cities and within 5 years.... will this happen tomorrow? Most likely not, but give a few years and a marked decline in economy...

What bothers me about BRAC. The current round will make that worst as well.

but.....

"Prosecutors said the militia group had big plans. It plotted to take over Fort Stewart by seizing its ammunition control point and talked of bombing the Forsyth Park fountain in nearby Savannah. In Washington state, the group plotted to bomb a dam and poison the state's apple crop. Ultimately, prosecutors said, the militia's goal was to overthrow the government and assassinate the president."

http://www.news.com.au/world/murders-expose-soldiers-plot-to-overthrow-us-government/story-fndir2ev-1226459536191

I doubt these idiots could pull it off.. but there are others.

hope that this little note though, wakes a few people.

I filed that under... "on the road to."

Thankfully these privates did not learn a thing about OpSec.

we wont have another Smedley Butler when the real money starts to talk to the real power.

not let go.

British thought back in 1775. Look how that turned out. Never underestimate!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree they won't get far. There most likely are a number that do have military training that would be of concern. But you think they would stand up long to the full might of the current armed forces of the US.

...I am A gun owner and a lifelong liberal...I have a shotgun and two antique guns, a colt 1911 and an enfield .303(an old British army rifle I used to hunt with). The antiques are locked away but fully functional, the shotgun is where I can reach and load it quickly...it is for home protection because whatever right wing asshat decides to play John Wayne and come in uninvited will get his brains sprayed all over my walls. These assholes keep ramping this stuff up...they are believing their own hot air....I'm
Taking them Very seriously....

Depending on how over zealous a State prosecutor is...
Even if everything looks like it was a justifiable deadly force situation .

Some states and media will dig deep into the shooters personal life.
Now suppose from a face book page or what ever public forum the shooter posts in.

They find

"Anyone comes in my house I'll plaster their brains on the wall with my shotgun". I'm ready "
And god forbid ( that actually happens)

This is what can make a justifiable deadly force situation turn into something else by a over zealous prosecutor.
That's why you never post things like this on a open forum.
Sure in the end it might prove justifiable but it could cost you tens of thousands in legal fees to prove it to a jury now.



Let the wacko right say what it wants about this civil war crap.
They are blowhards and cowards.

Let us be the mature ones in this debate.

and i respect your opinion...florida has, as everyone on this site knows, the stand your ground law. i'm not saying gun down random people, i am saying i will defend my home and my loved ones and i have no problem doing it....i thought my language was pretty clear, but if this helps clear things up then so be it. i'm not trying to insult anyone here.

I don't think it needs an explanation by you.
I think it's just good survival judgment to delete the original post.


That's all.

i admit you have a logical point there...

This post makes you seem.... troubled.

First, I'm not deleting the post....don't like that? let the jury decide....

Second, the only thing that troubles me is the rhetoric and actions we have all seen grow louder and bolder over the last 12 years...and since the supreme court decision for the ACA, it has become even worse...I'm not advocating any kind of armed warfare, but when these idiots come they will Come armed. Add to all of this I live in the south, I am in an interracial relationship and there are kids in the house. Trevon Martin was murdered about 20 miles from me, I am in the sticks surrounded by rednecks....there is no finding common ground with them
And frankly I'm done trying. I'm not looking to aim a gun at anyone, but I have absolutely no problem Defending me or mine....

it appears that your "redneck" neighbors may have more to worry about from you, than you them. Communication is key, and it sounds like you don't communicate with them. Most people are happy to meet their neighbors and learn about them, it's part of building a safer community.

Take it easy. It's good that you have taken steps to protect yourself and your family, but I'd relax. There's nothing to be gained from all that hoopla. Only more stress.

Best of luck.

My neighbors are fine...others, not so much, and again it's not something that occupies my thoughts 24/7, but I find myself becoming a little more attuned to my surroundings...maybe that's something I got from my time in the service, and some of it is just from growing up where I did. When their rhetoric dies down I will be a little less tense...75% of my friends and family are republicans, most the old fashioned Eisenhower types that can be reasoned with, but I have been watching some old friends and family really going off the deep end over the president....I like to tell the birther types that I, as a deck seaman in the navy, had to do two
Interviews with the NSA and FBI to be cleared to serve on a submarine with nuclear missiles...do you really think they would hand over the keys to 10,000 nukes to a foreign national? That is an reply that SHOULD stop any argument, but 9 times out of 10 I get the conspiracy theories thrown right back at me....the intensity of the hatred is something I have never seen in my lifetime, and I grew up during Nixon and the equal rights battles. I think we all should be a little more wary of these people....

The birthers give off a very nasty vibe. I don't want to call it racist, because I can't prove it and I don't want to smear them, but there's just a real undercurrent there with the birthers and the sovereign citizen types that definitely keeps me on edge in their presence. They probably think 9/11 was an inside job too.

I take back my previous cautions. We all gotta blow off steam some time.

It sounds like you are: Aware, not afraid and Prepared, not paranoid.

my ex sis in law is a birther/sovereign type, and after i posted the judge story on facebook she really railed on me about the upcoming civil war if obama is re-elected, killing the communists in this country, etc...etc...insert talking point here...blah blah blah...the usual birther bagger B/S...she kept quoting alex jones and glen beck to me...my first response was while i enjoyed alex jone's prerogative on chem trails and 911, he and beck were now in the business of playing on peoples fears and selling dehydrated survival food and gold to the suckers who believe them...i didn't get a nice reply.....so i asked her if the bunker she and her husband built out in the texas woods could stop napalm or an M-1 tank, and if you did manage to stop one, could you stop the 5 others behind it with a 30 caliber hunting rifle and some dynamite? can you stop an apache helicopter? a 40mm grenade? well needless to say that just made it worse...the preaching about obama using the military to enforce his will started, and i stopped responding at this point......it doesn't matter to these people...the republicans/tea party/fox news have demonized the left so thoroughly to these people they are going to need professional help. i could've been jesus walking on the water at that point and she would have shot at me...

thanks for seeing my point and hearing out my rant...i'm not a violent or irrational person...my life outside the navy has been dedicated to helping people in one form or another, from women to addicts to stroke victims. i used to think these idiots were harmless 4 years ago...blowhards that didn't want to pay taxes...but there are a sizable number of these people, along with racists , whom i feel are going to come unhinged if Obama is re-elected, and they will make up a reason out of thin air to do it.

I absolutely agree with the point about taking the wackos seriously.

But we shouldn't become wackos in the process.

i was simply stating my point of view based on the contacts i see and hear daily. I'm happy that you can afford to not take these people seriously, but i am not going to let thinly disguised and not so thinly disguised threats go under the three monkeys line of thinking...congresswoman giffords, the sikh temple, shooting at the holocaust museum...it's not just wacky loud mouth judges...he wouldn't have said this if he wasn't emboldedned and empowered to say it...he obviously felt he had enough support behind him to let loose with his statements. i have not once tried to push my opinion down your throat, but you can sit there and call me a wacko without batting an eye....i didn't use any insults towards you. you don't walk in my shoes friend. ok, the brain painting was a bit over the top, but so was calling the intruder john wayne...i guess the humor, albeit dark, missed you. i don't think you're taking this seriously, but i'm not going to insult your intelligence or your mental state. honestly, i hope you're right and this "civil war" thing never bears fruit, but i feel a little better knowing i have some means to defend myself if it does....i don't think you're a whack job for not taking the same steps, and again, i have yet to call you insane, so please stop with the name calling and broad brushing, because to me, it's taking a page out of the other sides playbook.

you need to relax.

Your points are entirely valid. All of them.

It's your language that has caught peoples' attention.

my creative writing teacher in school....and the norwegian death metal i used to jam out to...

If they do we just cut off their supply to Twinkies and they will surrender.

One of my all-time fav Onion articles:

"HUNTSVILLE, AL–For the 135th straight year since Gen. Robert E. Lee's surrender at Appomattox, representatives for the South announced Monday that the region has postponed plans to rise again.

"Make no mistake, the South shall rise again," said Knox Pritchard, president of the Huntsville-based Alliance Of Confederate States. "But we're just not quite ready to do it now. Hopefully, we'll be able to rise again real soon, maybe even in 2001.""

Whole article here:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/south-postpones-rising-again-for-yet-another-year,377/

of a bit of wisdom,glimpsed on a mens room wall in a south Texas truckstop....

"The South will rise again",prompted a reply of "Yeah,shit floats".

to well-reasoned posts from my Southern DU brothers and sisters fighting the good fight on behalf of workers everywhere.

But I got a kick out of your post.

staunch right winger,hate obama and love limbaugh. Had a big collection of guns collected a union pension and inherited over a million bucks from his sister. Bitched about no friends but wouldn't befriend nobody for fear of it costing him money. Very selfish person. I ask him what he would do if the gov knocked on his door for his guns, he said I'd give them to them. He said if you don't they would just kill you. Instead he let the Vodka do it. He died a very loney miserable shell of a human. It's almost funny because the next guy that moved in to that house is also an inherited millionare, despised by every friend he has ever had, extremely racist, gun lover whom is also lying down there right now dying of liver cancer induced by smoking lots of crank and drinking lots of vodka. They are all cowards.

Remember all the snark that was directed at the Tea Party here at DU, how it was some sort of joke, a movement that would never amount to anything? How well did that work out for us?

If the events of the last few days haven't made it plain to you just how many extreme, violence-prone conservatives there are in the U.S., you haven't been paying attention. Having a black guy in the White House has pushed lots of well-armed dimwits over the edge---there's more evidence of that all the time. Work hard for a big Democratic turnout on election day. It's never been more important.

I agree 100%

I am not,

I am seeing the rise of the talk and talk is not cheap. I am also seeing more violence.

Sorry, but folks are getting ready, and you under estimate them at your pleasure.

Me... sorry, I expect a very short, sharp pang of violence, and then an American Infitadah. Why? The boys also believe this will be the blue and the gray, it won't... modern weapons do not let you take on the big bad government with AR-15s, that is fantasy... but there are other ways to do so, and they will.

or the Iraqis did with us, or the Afghanis are, or the Algerians did with the French Army... or Tito's forces faced the S.S.

It is called unconventional, asymmetrical warfare. Why I said American Infitadah.

They will try first the stand up and deliver, but after they get their bodies handed back to them in pieces... they will turn to pretty asymmetrical means of warfare.

Not that they'd ever understand that that's exactly what they'd become.

I do know there are a lot of them who have "lists" of people they want to kill when "TSHTF" (in other words, when they think they'll be able to get away with it).

terrorist was the appellation used by members of Parliament during those heady years of the American Revolution, when referring to those silly colonists.

We were successful, but from the pov of the Brits we were no better.

But when people ask how they would take on the powerful tools of the state, that is exactly how. An uprising, or worst a civil war, will not be pleasant... in fact, it is the worst kind of war. Both the American Revolution and the Civil War were civil wars. And like any other civil war, they were all but civil.

would look like the middle east. Car bombs, suicide bombers and snipers.

The code of ethics and honor that the US military tries to maintain does not do well with what it takes to crush an insurgency.
In most cases it is a small percentage of actual combatants actually doing the fighting in a revolution or seditious uprising, most historians stick it at 5-10 percent. This also correlates with the studies showing that aprox. 3-5% of soldiers do the vast majority of effective engagement with their enemy.
Now add the fact for over 2 decades now there has been documentation showing many white supremacist and separatists have entered in to the military for training, only to take it back to their compatriots.
Any troop with time in the sandbox knows how to take down an Abrams or Bradley, has seen Fedayeen use crowds to provide concealment, seen allied indigenous troops family and villages suffer retaliation. etc..

No the sky is not falling, today. But as the rhetoric grows more and more heated, as both side claim to actually hate each other, and begins to dehumanize their political rivals we are sowing the seeds for the troubled and dispossessed to come fully unhinged.

The way many here write off their counterparts at Free republic, and the way our counterparts write of liberals at a multiplicity of places, is one of the critical steps in this process.

I wish I got a dollar for each time I heard a refugee explain how their own countries went down that road... it is awful familiar.

by the way.

I'd say we enter the dehumination stage around 1997, with the Monica affair. But we really entered this in any serious manner after 2004... the train, I fear, has left that station.

Proof, Obama is a pretty right of center president, between his skin color and being a democrat, well the language just accelerated.

Classification - people are divided into "us" and "them"
Symbolization - combined with hatred, symbols are forced upon pariah groups
Dehumanization - one group denies the humanity of the other, equating them with animals, vermin, plague, etc.
Organization - special army units or militias are trained and armed
Polarization - hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda
Preparation - victims are identified and separated
Extermination - the chosen victims are killed
Denial - the perpetrators deny that they have done anything wrong

When you look at it through this lens, you gotta admit that it's pretty scary. When you look at what popular conservatives such as Rush, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, etc. say about liberals, you can easily check off at least five of these.

You know we crossed a horrific threshold in the process.

I should know I used to do it for our Government.

You don't need a bunch of money, you don't needed hi tech gear only a few motivated people.

With the size of the US and ease of obtaining weapons and other assorted goodies in all 50 states creating havoc will be very easy.

I give them two weeks of open fighting and yes a decade of asymetrical warfare. If they really are that committed to the cause... it took how long for the IRA? And it was NOT pretty.

try to reinstate the draft....Get YOUR kids to fight it for them........

You can always hire one half of the poor to kill the other half.

don't buy guns, too..........Boy! Are they in for a big surprise if the shit hits the fan in November and the right gets caught trying to "Gore" Obama.

Let us not forget, in the last Civil War, Europe was happy to get it's hands dirty, with Britain and France both supporting the CSA. England wanted the cotton, and the French thought if they supported the CSA, Texas would not interfere with it's plans to conquer Mexico (aka the whole Emperor Maximilian debacle,) Now, if there was civil war, China would be sending support, as their economy depends a lot on a certain southern store named Wal-Mart, and it would also love the idea of an independent California. Europe, of course, would go for the jugular. just like they did last time.

people, they would do it gleefully. But I agree-- authoritarian followers will never, ever stand up and really *fight* en masse on their own.

will mostly strike in areas where they've got a fair shot of fading in to the background.

I can see this going either as a two week wannabe fascist riot, or a long slow burner.

part of it is going to depend on how long they can keep an ACTIVE fire burning. It's easy to talk about wanting to off someone, harder to do it.

When you add it things like 3D printers, you get cheap and untraceable small arms, so that has to be factored in.