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pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 09:39 PM Mar 2019

CORRECTION: Law professor Jed Shugarman on possibility of Manafort double jeopardy:

Last edited Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:11 PM - Edit history (2)










I'm reviewing @ManhattanDA indictments of Manafort to see if there's any NY double jeopardy problem.
Manafort was convicted in EDVA for fraud vs Citizens Bank w/r/t Howard St.

As long as today's Lender #1 and Lender #2 are not Citizens (and seems they're not), then no problem.

CORRECTION THREAD: I think we have a NY double jeopardy problem re: Manafort.

Let me first note that I have just spent 2 hours on a train comparing today's new @manhattanda indictment to the old Mueller indictment.
Problem 1: Today's indictment is badly written and confusing...

2/ So here's the problem. In EDVA, Manafort was convicted of bank fraud in his application to Citizens Bank for a completed $3.4M loan on his 29 Howard St. property.

3/ Today's @manhattanda indictment is about Manafort defrauding two unnamed lenders, Lender 1 and Lender 2.
It seems clear now that Lender 1 in most of today's counts is Citizens Bank, and that alleged fraud is for the SAME LOAN in the federal conviction.
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asiliveandbreathe

(8,203 posts)
1. To go along with Shugerman.....
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:00 PM
Mar 2019

Duncan Levin, a former federal prosecutor who also used to serve in the Manhattan DA’s office as its asset forfeiture chief, argued Vance’s indictment was “carefully crafted” to avoid the double jeopardy issue.


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-manafort-crimes-new-york-20190313-story.html

Levin goes onto say.....snip..

“Whoever put this indictment together did a very good job of carving out a niche that can be prosecuted,” Levin said, adding Vance’s charges stand out in that they focus on mortgage fraud as opposed to Manafort’s federal fraud charges, which relate to banks and taxes.
Nonetheless, Levin said it’s indisputable that Vance’s indictment is at least partially meant as a warning shot to Trump.

“The possibility of a pardon is clearly somewhere in the mix,” he said. “I think when the possibility of a pardon is dangled out there so often, it played some role in the decision.”


Can never have too much info..as long as we know the source..also..the state of NY is about 2-3 weeks from closing the double jeopardy loophole..thru legislation....

asiliveandbreathe

(8,203 posts)
6. Of course...here is the link re: NY state Dbl Jeopardy legislation...
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:09 PM
Mar 2019
https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2019/03/12/ny-lawmakers-expected-to-pass-bill-closing-double-jeopardy-loophole/

The legislation would be particularly important if future associates or family members of President Donald Trump are indicted as a result of the probe by Special Counsel Robert Mueller III, which is expected to be transmitted to U.S. Attorney General William Barr sometime soon.

The law would not apply to individuals already tried and convicted, such as former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort Jr., because the so-called double jeopardy clause attaches at the start of a trial.

RockRaven

(14,974 posts)
3. Unfortunately he's added tweets with correction of "maybe there is a problem"
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:01 PM
Mar 2019

or something equivalent. I suppose we will have to wait for matters to proceed to find out with any certainty. So long as some of the parties are pseudonymous it is hard to be certain about anything.

It would be nice if Vance could offer a legitimate, unbiased, mistake-free prosecution and not something which reeks of a political agenda (no matter how much I might otherwise like the outcome goal).

Nevilledog

(51,122 posts)
7. Who is this Shugarman guy?
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:18 PM
Mar 2019

He's doing a piss poor job of analysing the Double Jeopardy issue. So long as the NY crimes charged, yes including those involving Citizens Bank, have unique or additional elements, there is no problem. It's not the victim being the same that causes issues, it's if you have to use the exact same facts to prove all the exact same elements of the previous conviction.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
8. A law professor at Fordham. Joyce Vance on MSNBC was talking of similar possible problems.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:25 PM
Mar 2019

Here's a former Fed prosecutor's take.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211918694

Nevilledog

(51,122 posts)
9. Only way to tell would be to research the state and Fed crimes to compare elements.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 10:45 PM
Mar 2019

Then you would have to know which evidence the prosecution was relying on. I think these attorneys are flapping their gums before they have enough information. I've seen stuff so far saying the turning point is whether the charges are transactionally related, or whether it's the same victim, or whether the crimes allege the same type of harm. None of those are dispositive as to any double jeopardy claims.

I'll give you some examples:

Manafort convicted of robbing bank A on January 1, 2020
And
Manafort convicted of robbing bank A on January 2, 2020

NOT double jeopardy because 2 separate robberies, even though same victim.


Manafort convicted of possessing meth on January 1, 2020
And
Manafort convicted of possession of meth for sale on January 1, 2020

NOT double jeopardy because possession for sale has additional element of intent to sell, even though same drugs possessed at same time (these sentences would undoubtedly be concurrent)

I'm not saying there absolutely cannot be double jeopardy issues. What I'm saying is people are making judgment calls without relevant informant.

I am a criminal defense attorney with 27 years experience.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
10. That's very helpful, Nevilledog. There's no doubt going to be a legal battle
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:36 PM
Mar 2019

about this now, and I hope you're right -- that Vance drafted this as carefully as you would have.

Nevilledog

(51,122 posts)
13. Upon further investigation they could go back to the grand jury for additional charges.
Wed Mar 13, 2019, 11:54 PM
Mar 2019

He could also be looking at additional cases from separate indictments. It's not at all unusual for a defendant to be facing multiple cases. Most I ever had was a client with 10 open felony cases. It really depends on the local practice of the prosecuting entity. Having disparate charges all contained in a single indictment leads to requests for severance because having one jury hear how the defendant likely committed different types of crimes against multiple victims would be too prejudicial.

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