Of course I could be wrong about that!

Edit: My husband is definitely not comfortable with that.

DONT fuckin touch me.

The person extends their hand first, and it's up to you to decide whether to extend your own hand and shake the person's.

But I just can't. Great point.

imtimate with. I've always been that way even as a child. But I don't freak out if somebody touches me. That normal human interaction.

Sorry, could not help myself - not directed at you. This whole thread reminds me of this scene from Stripes:

perspectives.

I came from a large family where we used to hug and kiss our Mom goodbye when we left for school as children. We even fought to get to the head of the line and kiss her first in those days. ) (My Dad left really early for work so we didn't have the same ritual.Somehow over the years it stopped. I guess as we became teens, we thought it was not cool or something to hug or kiss your Mom and Dad.

When I met my future husband, he was a very touchy, hand holding, huggy guy; moreso than I. During our dating it quickly became normal and I liked it. When I met his family for the first time, they were all a touchy, huggy family, and I liked it. No one every departed an event without telling everyone they loved them. Someone asked my husband about it one time, and his response was, "I want my Mother, Father, Sister, Brother, whomever ....to know that I love them while they are alive and can hear it from me." From the first time our families met, my husband hugged everyone, and always kissed everyone goodbye and told everyone, "I Love You". It became our family's normal.

Every group of friends and relatives we have, hugs and kisses when we arrive and when we depart, and it all began with my husband. We hug and kiss our friends hello and goodbye. It is so natural for everyone now and they like it as well. We tell each other we love you still, and they have passed it on to their own families and friends. Our reputation precedes us because whenever someone new gets introduced to our friends and family, or my husband and his friend's car club, and they say "Hello", someone always says "they don't accept handshakes here, you better give them a hug"; and everyone always laughs because they are so used to it. You can tell over the years that they have become a lot more affectionate with their own families, and it's brought us a lot closer as a group and friends.

There are other families who aren't physically affectionate who are just as warm, loving and valid as yours. They just don't want as much physical touch as other people, and that's okay.

There are cultural norms. Must we lives the most extreme wish?

thanks," I'd put my hand down and say, "what a pleasure to meet you."

People hug me. But I never imagined complaining. I'm not that against it and think I might offend that person by refusing, and that is a factor too. The person you described has to do that every time, since most people don't consider hand shaking out of bounds. I would rather not do that.

The only thing I mention is people calling me "Mrs." and my last name, since it is my birth (maiden) name. Even then, I try to make light of it. I don't mind Miss or Ms. but being called Mrs. creeps me out as that belongs to persons married to my father and other paternal male relatives. Even so, I let it pass or make a joke of it. People can't always be perfect and there is no reason to embarrass them for such small "offenses."

You sure you want to shake hands with me?

but they are trying not to spread the cold, not being uncomfortable shaking hands.

Physical contact has been part of the Human experience since before there were Humans. Christ, even ants have a physical contact component to their social systems and they've been around for 140 million years. Absolutely there is touch that is unwelcome and not ok, but this is morphing into something neurotic.

Disclaimer, I am one of those people that *does not* like to be touched by complete strangers, and I have to warm to people that I do know, but I have the maturity to recognize what *type* of touch it is and its sociological and psychological intent AND not freak out about it or get upset by it. The social touch is innate in the Human psyche and is pretty much a subconscious action as a result. Often times we "literally" don't think about what we're doing when we do it because it is an instinct of social animals. Biden is a caring person and is probably more touchy as a result. Goes the other way too, nasty people like Trump utilize power touching to assert dominance. His infamous asshole handshake for instance. I think we all remember when President Macron hilariously and deliberately out-assholed Trump in their handshake as if to say, "No, you orange fuckwit, YOU are not in charge here." Macron turned Trump's own tactic against him. Or at that time Trump went to the (NATO?) meeting of world leaders and he aggressively patted one leader on the back only in order to shove him out of the way so he could be in front?

...have important tactile communication protocols.

Assuming or reacting to all touch from strangers as automatically being of ill-intent is contrary to social instincts developed over eons across the entire spectrum of social species in the animal kingdom. On an instinctual level, most animals know the difference between a social touch and a "I'm going to kill and/or eat you" or "I'm fighting and possibly killing you for that mate over there" touch. Our thinking brains have tacked on additional rules and habits over the millennia, but there's a change in the response to this innate behavior occurring. This hypersensitivity, and I recognize it in myself AND manage to control it, has been coming to the fore in recent years and I'm sure experts are delighted at the chance to witness and study a change in Human behavior in real-time.

Bigger brains, bigger psychological problems.

Persons who have a history in which “social touch” was the gateway to abuse are not exactly what you’d call “rare”.

People become hypersensitive if they've had a negative contact, while others like myself I couldn't readily explain the counter-instinctual aversion to social touch. People need to put their thinking caps on and ask themselves "Was Joe Biden preparing to rape me, or was he being overly-touchy and grossly clumsy in his attempt to reassure me? Is he being Uncle Joe, or Creepy Uncle Joe?" and apply that to whatever situation is making them uncomfortable. And to be perfectly clear, I would be wildly uncomfortable if Biden had done to me as described. He'd have gotten an immediate physical reaction: A surprised fight-or-flight shudder shaking him off of me and a confused/alarmed death stare until he explained himself. I say that because it has happened to me ... just not with Joe Biden obviously. It wasn't welcome in the slightest and while the intent wasn't malicious, they definitely did it from desire and I was not remotely reciprocating that interest. But again, despite the shock of the sudden unwelcome intrusion, I could read the situation and realize I wasn't under attack because I don't operate from the position of consciously assuming all uninvited touch is bad touch. Again, I do count myself among the those that have a hypersensitivity to being touched by others, but I control that to keep myself safe and to avoid as best I can needlessly screwing up social interactions. That incident was awkward for all parties but it was fleeting, thankfully.

Obviously none of us can truly know the inner workings of Biden's mind or this woman's, but it does give us an opportunity to discuss the larger sociological and psychological factors at work here. I don't discount her discomfort (again, happened to me) but I do have concern about people who function by default assume ill-intent in social touch in its typical forms. Breast grabbing is not social touch, it is an intentionally sexual-in-nature act outside of normal social interaction. I bring that example up specifically because people conflate sexual touch with general social touch. They are not the same thing. I personally don't think Joe Biden was being a creep, I think he was just being Joe Biden the well-meaning but clumsy oaf we've known for years. Personally, I'd forgive the intrusion with an explicit understanding not to do it again. But I'm neither him nor her, so all I can do is hope he was being supportive and that she comes to believe that as well. That's for them to figure out.

touch the other. Dotard probably thinks of it that way. I've never seen him hug anyone, either, whereas the Obamas, Biden and Clintons were always doing it.

Biden probably has never gotten negative feedback on this before. It was started by Republicans, too. I've seen them trying to make it a thing since before this primary. Other Democrats trying to use it in the primary is despicable and so far I notice only this comes from a supporter of only one particular "Democrat" who is a primary candidate.

good, and more people need to become aware that some men and women don't like to be touched, none like to be touched in obnoxious ways, but others love friendly touches and embraces. Manners is about picking up on who is who; almost all signal their preferences.

But for a society to give up communication through touch, older than man, would be very unhealthy, even tragic. Making men afraid of normal interaction with women, of the sort men have with each other, is not an advance in women's rights. And encouraging women who have problems relating to others to regard every touch or hit as a kind of insult or assault isn't doing them any favors by a long shot.

But to me, bottom line, overdoing "don't touch" is just plain not nice. Most men deserve a much better attitude.

Speaking for myself:
I decided that as an adult that I needed to get over it.

I agree with others on the thread that there is a line (you do - too, I'm sure).

But generic stuff? It was okay - for me - to learn some new boundaries.

If someone were to be too touchy - meh. I might not like it, but it's not the end of the world. Plus, I tell folks when they've crossed the line and that's the end of it. I don't hold on to my own 'uncomfortableness.' I have learned to let it go.

Someone used the word,” Puritan,” in this thread. Life is too short not to enjoy.

My MIL/ FIL for the first time. He put out his hand to shake mine.

As they live 2 States away we did not see them often. Second time handshake. Third time I put out my arms to hug him. From that time on his arms were open wide when we visited.

My family was always that way.

which involves putting your 2 palms together, and not touching each other.

namaste is a formality which most people won't use regularly.

four times bigger than United States (which is India) I can't dispute your hypothesis that there are plenty of men who grope women.

...caused by prenatal sex-selection, that have resulted in young women and girls treated like prey. "Eve-teasing" by groups of young men is offensive, dangerous, and something young women apparently just have to put up with if they want an education, a job, a night out at the movies or anything else normal people take for granted.

growing up in India. I had 3 older sisters and one older brother. All 3 of my sisters graduated from college, the oldest in 1942. All three held professional jobs. I had like 50 first cousins adding all from mother and father's sides. I never heard of a single woman in that group being treated like prey.

India had a woman head of state (Indira Gandhi) in 1970, long before most other countries. We in United States are still waiting for one half a century later. It is easy to cast stones at other countries, and ignore our own situation.

Rape rate in India 1.8, Ranked 46th.
Rape rate in United States 27.3, Ranked 9th. 15 times more than India

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/India/United-States/Crime

But I left India in 1960, and things could have changed since then.

...from India. Probably being in a University town has something to do with it, but even so.

My educational background as an undergrad in the late 1960s was Asian and Pacific history -- this is mostly relevant because it means I maintained an interest, and when the Los Angeles Times or similar reputable publication has an in-depth article I read it. Professors were not covering women's issues as such at the time (1968-1971) where I was, but I gravitated in that direction. Women's issues, reproductive health, public health, religion, those kinds of things.

Sadly, I think things have changed since 1960, when you left. As you are aware, there are cultures where sons are much more desirable than daughters, and this is not unique to India. There are many reasons, one of which is to have a retirement plan for the parents in the absence of a Social Security system. Daughters leave when they marry; sons stay.

China had a strict one-child policy for several decades, brutally enforced, that led to a terrible imbalance between men and women. India had its own pressures to encourage smaller families and restrain population growth, though nothing like China's authoritarian government enforced scheme.

If I understand correctly, what India finally had were readily available sonogram machines at village clinics that could determine the sex of the fetus. Imagine a married couple wanting to limit the size of their family and so enhance their prosperity and the prospects for their children. Imagine realizing they did not have to leave the gender of their children up to chance.

As a consequence, between India and China there are about 70 million "missing women," which creates far-reaching social consequences including loneliness and inability to ever get married. I apologize that I can't cite more from the article below than its link, but every time I try to go to a new page on my iPad while composing a post, it tries to erase whatever I am writing.

Here's an article from the Toronto Star last year:
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2018/05/05/too-many-men-examining-the-gender-imbalances-of-india-and-china.html

However during my 20 years in India, abortion was rare in my circle of relatives. One family we knew well and were distant relatives had 6 daughters in a row, before their 1st son was born. I can just imagine the horror of adding up 6 dowries for the 6 daughters, without which it was difficult if not impossible to find a good husbands for daughters. My own parents had 2 daughters before a son showed up.

However on issue of disrespect for women, I never saw it in India. If some woman was molested, the whole neighborhood would beat the perp to a pulp with sticks. During my college years in India, boys and girls never touched each other! The first time I ever held hand of a girl was during my years at Univ of Iowa on a date at age 20. There was one incident I remember when during a weekend high-school trip, a rumor floated around that one of the teachers had touched one of the female students, and an intense fact finding investigation was launched by the school principal.

But it has been 58 years since I left India, and am certain things must be different now. My last visit was in 1984. I hate crowded noisy cities and all my older siblings have either passed or moved to other countries.

Several years ago I returned to Hawai'i for my 50th high school reunion. I left when I was about 32, after spending all my young years there. The reunion itself was a treasure -- but in Honolulu, where I had lived and worked as an adult, nearly all my landmarks were overlaid. I had worked my way through the university as a salesclerk in the major shopping center, and literally found only one familiar unchanged site, an artificial waterfall where my 18-month old daughter once exclaimed in wonder "Water down!"

Classmate events were held in and near our home town, which looked and felt much the same, as did the deep countryside -- although the main highway through the rural part of the island was marked by homemades signs cursing out developers.

But when my husband and I drove back to our hotel each night, homeless people set up tents on the sidewalks of highway underpasses. A friend still working as a real estate broker said much of the cost of living in a condo in the city was for hiring security guards.

Yet anyone who knows me, at140, knows that place formed me and that part of my heart will always be there.

Things change in 50 or 60 years, but memories are real too.

There are social customs everywhere that are different. Some cultures kiss on both cheeks, even men. Others stand closer to people they are talking to when we do.

Sanders and came up with photos of each of them embracing or touching supporters.
I could post photos of President Obama and Michele all day hugging constituents. Nobody ever said anything about them. Yep. Selective outrage.

Here's Warren


Bernie, hands on girl's shoulders
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTJ6JND2CLv401HGENOTKlqEyPqtZ1InrEnmfE1-WPoUvat0Rr3nw

?width=534&height=401&fit=crop

Introverts have a hard time breaking into national level politics?

Hillary was an exception. And so I suspect it was through sheer iron WILL that she was good at it.
Her response to Trump's disgusting hovering during the debates was proof enough for me...if she had been at a bar and 'a nobody' she would have bloodied his nose for that and been RIGHT to do so, imho.

He's a worthless, sick, fuck of a man. She knew it. As much as was publicly allowed, she CALLED him on it. And she was punished for it by a nation of republican small dicked mysogonists.

shoulders of young ladies and men. I wouldn't want him to touch me, but I never thought there was anything sexual about it.

Google joe biden sniffing hair and click on images. It seems to be a thing.

I am 59, raised three daughters, coached girls soccer, and never known this to be a socially acceptable thing. In fact I don't think I've seen it before. I can understand a woman being freaked out by it.

However. Joe Biden is still on my list.

kissing their constituents on the lips, hovering behind them, hands on shoulders, whispering intimately in their ear or smelling their hair (i.e. not just briefly posing for the camera)?

It's really not selective outrage.

(That said, I'm not suggesting that he drop out of the race - BUT - I think this is a conversation Biden should listen to and learn from )

your'e not paying attention.

I love hypocrisy when it is in full color.

touching by a man to place both arms on shoulders from behind and whisper in woman's ears, whom he does not know very well.

That photo you posted about Warren clearly shows both parties wanted a hug.

Did they meet socially before? A popular vice president has met almost all politicians at one time or another.

Polls showed him ahead of Bernie.

It is obvious that Warren and the person are BOTH hugging. The Sanders photo is as standard a politician and person photo there is. It is posed and they are all smiling and they likely asked her the photo. The difference is that each of these people WANTED that engagement.

You seriously can not even pick up any clues of what the other person is thinking if you don't even have face to face contact!

Or giving her a "big, slow kiss" on her head, as Lucy Flores claims happened to her.

to look at him and say.." EEEEW..did you just smell my hair & kiss my head?..that's creepy "

Women are just now starting to be more forceful when something happens, and that's a good thing..

For too many decades men have called the shots and it's now time for women to step up, and take more control..

Our culture sent so many mixed messages.. women/girls were taught to be demure/ladylike, which put all the pressure on guys to step up and "make the first move".. We all know how easily misunderstood things can get.. a cute girl smiles at a guy and HE may think that's an invitation for him to move in..It may just have been a friendly smile..

It's a RARE thing for a male-female friendship that has not at some time been "confused".. Many guys will accept the friend thing if they think it's working up to more, and many times the girl truly just wants to be friends. Most guys figure it out after a few embarrassing fumbles, but that usually ends the friendship.

This is for the distinct purpose of helping Bernie. And we all know if he does not win, it will be due to “rigging” anyway.

To shake hands and kiss babies.

How far do we have to go here ? All this so Bernie can beat Joe?

lingering kiss on her head? Not in my world.

Where do YOU live?

genders. There was no sexual context, but it could be uncomfortable for some I am sure

During the hurricane disaster in NJ he was hugging a lot of folks

And FWIW, I did some quick searching and didn't find anything to back up your story about Biden's behavior at Widener.

In fairness, that describes you, as well. Just because you insist it happened doesn't mean your anecdote is impervious to scrutiny.

belongs in the Primaries forum?

As for my checking for any supporting info... Considering the amount of oppo research done on Biden over the years, it would surprise me if there'd been a lot of complaints about him at Widener, of the sort your describe, with nothing about them leaking out.

Last edited Sat Mar 30, 2019, 07:16 PM - Edit history (1)

I’m agnostic on whether it’s a deal breaker. I’m sure that he never intended to offend, but really just can’t quite grasp that nobody is going to make a big stink when they are a third-year law student in a writing class where he is going to grade their paper, and he is a United States Senator basically volunteering his time to lend some cred to, let’s face it, not the most prestigious law school.

One of the selling points OF the school was “we have Joe Biden as faculty”. Nobody was going to rock that boat and come out smiling.

But, the campus is about a five to ten minute drive from his house, and he could park his green convertible vette wherever he wanted. Since it was three hours, there’d be a short break halfway through and he’d even come out and shoot the shit with the smokers.

This was also the time of the Clinton/Lewinsky thing, which angered him no end.

Now, there was kind of a “deal” with this class. Because he was a senator and perennial presidential candidate, everyone agreed that he was allowed to speak candidly and hypothetically in class, and nobody would quote him on substance or make claims about “stuff he said in class”. That informal deal holds, because it gave us all a rare insight into the mind of an influential US senator. It was a great class.

He’s a fun guy. He’s been consistently mostly on the right side of things. Sometimes, like with the flag burning legislation, there’s a certain trade-off between something like passing a silly piece of legislation that would get thrown out, as a compromise to screwing with the Constitution. So, some of the things in his history were for theatrical purposes.

And, again, on the Anita Hill thing... Bork had been shot down. There are only so many nominees the Senate is going to kill before it looks like a rigged game. Back in those days, it was more common for the president of another party to consult with Senate leaders to figure out how to get things done, and that happened after Bork was shot down. There was a lot more context to those circumstances.

But I digress. Joe is a great person in a lot of ways, and doesn’t have an ill-intended bone in his body.

Did he have a habit of creeping women out - unknowingly and unintentionally - by being more tactile than many preferred. Yes he did. I’m sure most would be of the opinion that it is in the past, sensitivities are more heightened now, and at the end of the day does this actually disqualify him from being president?

If he’s the nominee, I will of course vote for him. But this thing is going to get factored in and looked at a bit more, however it may shake out, as things go forward. Treating it as a “hit job” etc. is not going to be a productive long term approach to putting this one to rest. Acknowledge it and move on. Accept that every candidate is going to have flaws. It’s a flawed universe we live in.

Looks like I've been mostly right about him when I've privately sized him up over the years. He's a genuinely decent guy with a few idiosyncrasies that get him in trouble from time to time. He isn't my first choice for the nomination, but we would still be fortunate to have someone like him as President, especially in comparison to what we've got now. I know that with the Metoo movement nowadays, we're going to hear more about Biden's behavior with women. It isn't like he's a predator or anything, so I won't be taking it seriously, but I know there are a lot of people who will. My hope is that Joe doesn't get hurt by all of this. That would be the real shame here.

So this just helps them, though there are no photos. A lot of those women might not think enough of it to want to help the right wing with this. Biden would be better than the pussy grabbing Dotard.

"His politics are bang on." Well, for me and many others, they weren't before. I don't know what they are now since a) his most recent job in govt. precluded him from taking a lot of personal stances and b) he's not officially running yet so he's not saying.

For me, leaving Anita Hill and any touchy/feely stuff aside, Joe has a lot of baggage and not all of it goes back to the 70s (busing, desegration/etc).

Biden was a US Senator from Delaware. Delaware has always had its issues.

Understand this - Joe Biden did his undergrad at the University of Delaware, which did not admit a black student until 1971. Delaware is not north or south of the Mason Dixon line, we are east of it. Mason and Dixon surveyed the western border of Delaware.

Back to the point - the US Senate had jack shit to do with deseg. That was a matter for the courts and, in point of fact, the most populous of Delaware’s three counties had long established racial housing patterns through the usual “soft” discrimination exercised by developers, real estate agencies, and banks. Joe’s career began on the New Castle County Council.

Long story short - the US Third Circuit, in a long-running effort to encourage NCC to fix the schools, eventually exercised what amounted to receivership over how the districts would be arranged, certainly much to the chagrin of out-and-our racists, but also to the general unease of persons who didn’t quite understand what the court was attempting to remedy.

To be a US Senator from Delaware, you have to be elected by the people of Delaware.

Now Biden always knew damn well that in stuff like deseg, abortion, and a number of other issues, the US Senate has very little to do with what the courts are going to decide in very unambiguous terms. And, as you note, a lot of these more “theatrical things Biden did” ended up going nowhere. The reason why, I would put to you, is that they were designed to go nowhere and were often stalking horses to draw support away from things that were worse, and allow him to straddle an electoral divide.

That sort of thing used to be recognized as a desirable characteristic of successful politicians, by the way.

The specifics may differ from case to case, but as you consider things that will be brought up about him, the above is sort of the “general Biden operating principle” as a US Senator.

but I fear my point was poorly made. I don't particularly care about stuff that goes back to the 70s. I don't care about stances he took, when he had no agency, simply to appeal to his voters. I didn't say anything about "theatrical things Biden did."

I said he has baggage, and I meant to say that it is far more recent and damaging than anything he said in the 70s. The Clinton crime bill was his baby. The bankruptcy bill was his baby.

That baggage, along with his Anita Hill fuck-up (and his recent passive voice I-wish-there-was-something-I-could-have-done non-apology apology)--is what bothers me.

As you say, "His politics are bang on."

I've just been emotionally battered by witnessing the awfulness of the politics of personal destruction over the decades, and I know that anyone who has a 40 year record in Washington DC has things in their past that can be twisted and used -- and I just cannot forget what the Puritan Left did to Al Franken, of all people.

In the past my concern was that Joe Biden had simply finally aged out. Now I find myself dreading attacks from our own side that I don't think he will deserve.

And I don’t think any opinions about it are “invalid”, because people just seem to come from different starting points and personal histories and preferences.

Today, I think there is a much broader understanding that even “I didn’t mean anything” touch can, for some, be extremely unwelcome in ways that persons of Biden’s background, personality and experience simply have not understood or appreciated in times past.

All I’m saying is that fighting against the facts is not going to be a good long range strategy for having this simply factored into the pros and cons of any candidate. But the sooner it is factored in, the better.

I think a lot of people will miss it buried in this thread.

relationship, really, men, women, and children. Until you know that physical contact is welcome and you're sure it's not inappropriate, avoid it. People will let you know if they are huggers or whatever. Men, of course, should always wait for women to initiate contact beyond a handshake or signal that a hug or whatever is welcome. Children should simply never be the target of any physical contact unless they're your children, grandchildren, or other relatives where such contact is the norm, or if a parent encourages such contact and you're comfortable with it.

You can always offer a handshake to pretty much anyone, of course. That is an accepted form of contact in most situations. However, if it is not accepted, that's a clear message that contact is not wanted.

Everyone is different and it takes time to learn those differences. A good friend of my former wife was a hugger and a smoocher. The first time she gave me a big smooch, I was pretty uncomfortable. I talked to my wife about it and she said, "She does that with everyone she likes. It doesn't bother me." So, that became a standard greeting with that particular person, but with nobody else.

"Go give "whomever it is" a kiss"..

I always told our boys that kisses were to be given/received when THEY felt it.. to each other (when they were little) or to Mom & Dad (again, when they were little)... and of course as they got to be teens we told them to be respectful and to KNOW a kiss would be welcomed BEFORE they did it

Never. They did teach us how to be polite and friendly, but left it to us when to show affection that way. I remember vividly my first girlfriend. Our first physical contact was holding hands as we walked. I asked her if I could hold her hand. She answered by taking my hand. It was wonderful. Then, one day soon after that, I said, "Can I kiss you?" She said, "Of course." I was 14 years old and she was 13. That was when I learned to ask first. I've never done otherwise, actually, ever since.

Did I miss some opportunities? No doubt. Did anyone ever say "No" when asked if a kiss was OK? Nope. Not once. Because I didn't ask unless I was pretty damned sure of the answer. "Would it be OK if I..." "Unless the answer was a clear "Yes," I never did. These days, it's something like "So, you wanna fool around." And it all started with asking a 13-year-old girl if I could hold her hand. We're still friends on Facebook, more than 50 years later, although I haven't seen her in decades. We're both long married to other people, and it's all just a fond memory.

My parents got it right, I think. So did you.

...and , when I saw her on her first day back to work, I hugged her hard. Her and her husband were friends of mine. I hugged her as hard as I could because it was very important to me that she knows she's not alone in her grief.

Am I a letch? I'm starting to be disgusted by the call out of humanitarians who merely tried to let others know that they are not alone.

This offed a VERY IMPORTANT Progressive Senator (Franken) and it's about to off a GREAT American like Joe Biden.

I get #metoo. What I don't get is the slaying of decent guys like Joe Biden, Al Franken and me.

and did not interpret it as meaning anything other than an offer of comfort. The issue in this thread is whether it's appropriate to touch or hug people who are total strangers. I don't like to be hugged by strangers, but if a friend did it as a gesture of kindness or consolation I'd be fine with it. That's a very different situation. I don't think Biden is a letch, either. He might be just a little too comfortable with familiarity.

That should be standard practice, unless you have an established relationship with the person in which physical contact is the norm.

It doesn't (necessarily) have anything to do with you being a letch - it has to do with controlling who touches my body, when. And - frankly - when I'm in the midst of pain or grief, an out-of-the-blue hug can force me to spend emotional energy I don't have weighing whether to tolerate the unwanted contact and offending the person I like by asking them not to touch me (or by 'making a scene')

includes an extraordinary number of people whose boundaries were never respected. It is very important for them to be able to decide when and by whom they are touched. Although the concentration in that particular community is very high - the principle is always applicable. People like my friends don't cease to exist once they move out of our community and constantly having to make the choice to tolerate contact they don't want or speak up is very emotionally draining.

Unless I have an existing relationship which includes physical contact, I alway ask before hugging - including yesterday when I had someone standing in front of me in tears. It takes a second or less to ask, and it is important.

If you don't want a hug in a situation in which a hug is generally socially acceptable, you should just avoid it by turning your body or holding your arms out in a stop fashion or whatever.

People should not feel as though they are molesting others when they are sharing genuine caring feelings which most people really appreciate.

Touching can (and often is) offensive without being sexual. Some people just don't want to be touched - and they have the right to have that respected. The onus on avoiding unwanted conduct should be on the person touching wihtout consent - not on the recipient to prevent it.

It is a trivial matter to say, "Would you like a hug?" It takes less than a second and gives the recipient a chance to avoid contact without having to physically manipulate themselves out of the way of the contact.

I say that as a hugger - and also as part of a community that includes a disproportionate number of individuals who do not welcome physical contact. I always ask, unless I have a relationship esblished that includes physical contact - becuase people I consider family have shared with me how difficult it is to negotiate a world in which they constantly have to physically dodge contact/explain themselves/risk alienating friends and acquaintances.

Sexual. Has nothing to do with that. Both were doing it in public which sexual harassers don’t do. So now they are moving to mere touching.

it can be still make the recipient of an unwanted touch profoundly uncomfortable. Why not err on the side of sensitivity and empathy for people who may have experienced things that can make casual touch traumatic?

The default assumption that it’s OK to touch people you don’t know well is retrograde and rude.

But then I'm kind of shy. But people doing it to me does not really floor me. And hand shaking is expected. People do it automatically.

In the Catholic Church there is now a point in a Mass called "the kiss of peace." Most people just shake hands and say peace be with you. Should that be a warning for anyone who might be new? Is there a point where it is more awkward to refuse? On occasions someone will say they have a cold so they don't want to shake your hand. Still the cold is an "excuse" so what of a person who would say I am just not comfortable shaking hands? And are the going to complain if people then respond, you are a weirdo?

The culture does not yet support this extreme view of social and non sexual touching.

behind by a stranger, have that stranger sniff their hair, and then plant a lingering kiss on their heads.

People saying they don't want strangers to do that to them makes life SO CONFUSING for you!!!

It's so sad for you. Those damn women will never be happy. Might as well just dismiss them. Because, really, it has everything to do with you and how you hugged your friend.

Some people are OK with being patted or hugged (in a non-sexual way, of course) by people they don't know, but I don't like it even when it's clearly not at all sexual (you can almost always tell when it is). It violates my personal space and it makes me really uncomfortable. Not too long ago I was asked to help out in a friend's church choir because they were missing a few singers. I'm not a churchgoer but I like some of the music and was happy to help out. So they got to this one part in the service where they were greeting each other and this one woman whose name I didn't even know grabbed me in a big bear hug - and I just froze. WTF? Offer a handshake but don't grab me, FFS.

I don't think Biden was being sexually predatory or had bad intent, but some of us just don't like being touched by people we don't know, regardless of intent. And it's easy for us women to interpret the intent as sexual even if it isn't.

no express permission.

reassurance or just sheer happiness vanish if permission isn't asked first.

Yes, there are types of touching that are offensive and ill-intended. Most women can easily tell the difference, and they should be able to make their feelings about any offensive touching clear.

Yes, there are people who don't want to be touched at all, except by those very close to them. In which case they can explain that.

But our world would be a colder, sadder place if people were afraid to show spontaneous affection by touching.

It's wrong to treat all touching as potential sexual assault or demeaning/controlling behavior.

ever said anything.

according to some.

But it was perfect.

Thanks

Queen's head?

Just curious. Personally, I don't think that would have been perfect. I think that would have been creepy.

kissed their hair lingeringly.

If you know different, please do provide a link.

is not supported by anyone in attendance of that function. I don't.

said that Joe has inflicted low-grade harassment on them over the years.

He has been in trouble for this kind of thing before, and he ought to know better.

And as I said to another poster who is insisting on witness corroboration to sexual harassment: I am researching the legal system used by the Puritans. They required TWO witnesses of any woman who accused a man of misconduct. I don't know why you stop at one. If you require three then no one will ever charge another person with sexual harassment again, and we can all pretend it doesn't exist. We could outdo the Puritans in not listening to women!

Biden tried to reassure her with hands on her shoulders, and she completely misinterpreted it, didn't bother to speak up or ask him for an explanation then, and instead weaponized it at a time when he's outpolling her favored candidate.

That's what happened. He didn't sidle up to her in a bar or office and sniff her hair and kiss the back of her head.

Henry Munoz, who organized the event and checked all the photos and talked to everyone there that he could reach, couldn't find any confirmation of what Flores claims happened. And it's almost impossible that there would not have been witnesses with so many people around, and so many eyes likely to be on Biden.

FWIW, my best guess based on both what Flores wrote and what Munoz wrote is that Biden thought Flores was suffering from stage fright or starting to hyperventilate (she had suddenly started taking deep breaths, from her own account), Biden put his hands on her shoulders, leaned down a bit to whisper something reassuring or encouraging, and she didn't hear him with all the noise around, but was very uncomfortably aware of how close his face was to her hair.

Which she had not washed that day, a fact she brings up in her own account.

So she felt embarrassed, and that probably was the beginning of the resentment.

But there's no sign on her smiling face in any of the photos taken at the event, just minutes after this allegedly traumatic encounter happened, that Flores was anything but very pleased to have Biden there.

discount the words of the woman who was there and who it happened to. Because internet guy knows all.

And she was smiling! As she was being introduced to give a major speech! GOSH! That MUST mean nothing happened. Ehhh... no.

And she didn't stop the proceedings of the introduction to her major speech to have a heart to heart with Biden about welcome and unwelcome touches! That MUST mean nothing happened! Ehhhh... no.

She has said herself this was uncomfortable and creepily inappropriate. Not traumatic. She has taken pains to say she did not find it traumatic and that it should not disqualify him.

But I guess your best guess as all-knowing internet guy is much more believable than the report of the woman it happened to. A report that, by the way, is one of dozens of similar reports over the years of this same kind of behavior from Biden.

know very well, is either sexual/creepy or demeaning/controlling. I know it's a mistake and unfair to men to misjudge and overreact.

As for Flores's "report"

https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/an-awkward-kiss-changed-how-i-saw-joe-biden.html

she dragged in debunked rightwing smears against Biden to try to make her case and destroy his political career.

Particularly her nasty mischaracterization of Biden's interaction with Stephanie Carter while her husband, Defense Secretary Ash Carter, was speaking at a podium only a few feet away.

That event happened years ago, and the smears about it were debunked years ago.

But Flores not only resurrected that smear, she added to it, lying outright in claiming in her essay that Biden was nuzzling Stephanie Carter's neck, when the clip that sentence links to shows clearly that Biden was doing no such thing. He was whispering in her ear, and she nodded and smiled. Both Carters made it clear there was nothing creepy or inappropriate about this.

I think it's disgusting that Flores dragged out this tired old smear and lied to add to it.

I think it discredits her.

So no, I do not take her account as completely accurate. Not when she's clearly lying and trying to smear Biden with debunked accusations in the same piece where she rolls out her attack on him.

And as for your saying there are "dozens of similar reports over the years of this same kind of behavior from Biden"...

That's BS.

There are dozens of video clips and photos -- many of them photoshopped -- showing Biden touching or hugging women, which his political enemies have tried to use against him.

As far as I know, they've been debunked, usually by the people he was filmed or photographed with making it clear they saw nothing wrong with his gestures of reassurance or affection.

Flores's accusations are the most serious I've heard against him.

And they're highly questionable because of details in her own account. And her motivation and timing are particularly questionable.

hugging people.

Way too many guys use hugs to “cop a feel” when it comes to women. I dare say that a certain politician, not named Trump, is one of them.