....SO HELL IF I KNOW! I sticking to hugging on dogs.

How sad.

That was one incredibly hard hug.

I'd love to hear the details, such as what caused the hug, how hard was it, and what was said immediately after.

Oh my, more innuendo.

You're just supposed to know, and if you don't, there's something seriously wrong with you, you dastardly misogynist creep.

I mean, obviously.

thanks for the link. I reached that conclusion in a thread yesterday. odd to find someone here who brags about it.

There was also the dude that talked about his penis all the time (he was eventually banned). Not to mention another dude who talked graphically about his sex life, and who made highly sexual/creepy comments about another DUer (she no longer posts here, he was banned). These were long-time posters.

And I was pretty immature (still kinda am in case you can't tell), and perhaps a tad cocky.

But I was ALWAYS respectful towards women, and I ALWAYS took a definite 'no' for an answer.

But a 'no ... WE really shouldn't', delivered with a smile, from someone who I know likes me?

I didn't necessarily pack it in and head home.

Call me a creep if you want, but I think I was pretty much a regular young man, for the time period especially.

And saying my sharing that sentiment (there was something in the news at that time that made me think hard about ... how I used to think) rises to the level of harassing particular female posters or rambling about my Johnson all the time ... is kinda f'ed up in my opinion.

Sounds like someone has an inflated view of their attributes too. Guys who acted that way and hit on me used to really gross me out. They always seemed to think they were God’s gift to women. I think most of them never even realized their attitude alone was a turn-off.

jaysus H

smile, put your arm around me, tell me I look cute, and ask what I am doing later?

And I wouldn't care what you look like, or how old you are, or how 'outta your league' I imagine I am ... I. WOULD. NOT. CARE.

It very literally wouldn't even occur to me ... that you violated my space, and that 'you'd should've asked'.

IN FACT, I bet if I'd gotten offended on the spot and said "I cannot believe you did not request my permission to touch me!" ... You'd walk off muttering 'what a jerk!' ... or something along those lines. No?

So ... do you see at all where 'misunderstandings between the genders' on the subject of 'personal space' ... might occasionally arise?

to many times, and had men hit on me plenty of times.

I probably wouldn't appreciate a kiss on the cheek much, but I wouldn't need to seek counseling or anything. If the guy that did it rose to the highest ranks of the Democratic Party, I wouldn't feel the need to advertise that he once pecked me on the cheek 5 years ago or whatever. Promise you that.

So ... "who knew"? Are you implying that I'm gay, and ridiculing that fact, if I were? Kinda sounds that way.

OR ... are you implying that 'well, MEN are just grosser than women, so it's totally different' ... for that reason?

Trying to figure out your point

sexual abuse charges or death.

Touch another person and you've committed some unforgivable sexual transgression - even if you don't even touch them sexually.

Touch a cop and you're likely to get beaten or killed even if you don't touch them threateningly and you're just trying to get their attention.

What the hell have we become? This wholesale restriction on human contact is ridiculous, IMO, and some of these stories are fraught with nonsensical sensitivities that sometimes echo disappointment in a career trajectory - or worse - may be AMI-like entities into capturing stories they don't want us to know and exposing non-stories they inflate - like this one.

I mean, the sex abuser in chief who bragged about it on tape is still in the White House yet Democrats are the ones continually in the spotlight. Does this seem like a coincidence to anyone? There are no coincidences.

And before I am labeled an enabler that goes for male and/or female and female and/or male sore losers and overly-sensitive publicity hounds that come up with non-stories like this.

Are you kidding me? This type of crap degrades the me too movement. It's like the Jessie Smollet of me too.

IMO.

Can I shake your hand? When you meet someone. That's not the custom. People are not expected in this culture to have a problem with that.

A lot of people hug me without asking. I usually don't do it myself. But I cannot imagine finding that so bad I have to complain about it. It's not that uncomfortable.

There's ways of "asking" without using words....as has been pointed out on this board. Extending a hand, opening your arms, etc. I think the point is not to assume what you find comfortable applies equally to everyone else. Joe Biden says that he doesn't believe he ever acted inappropriately and yet, clearly, what he considers an appropriate standard is not shared by everyone.

No doubt that standard has shifted since his formative years, as a person and a politician. He needs to be aware and adjust. We all do, I think. It is about respecting other people's space, particularly women. Just don't assume.

Times have changed, and he needs to show he can change with them. I don't think many here would disagree on this point.

But I'm not throwing him under the bus because he's not yet made the proper adjustment, based on the questionable word of a close associate of one of his chief opponents, particularly when the level of the offense, even if 100% true, is really not all that offensive. If he had pinched her tush, or breathed in her ear "come up to my room later and I'll make sure you win this race!" ... then OF COURSE, this would rise to the level of serious concern and disqualification.

I feel like what's happening here in this discussion on DU is playing directly into Trumps hands. Biden is his most feared candidate. And we're just ... eating our own, again. Doing his work for him.

You gotta think he's laughing his butt off, going 'Man, I admitted to just walking up and kissing women (implication there being on the lips) and even grabbing women by the P ... on the grounds that I'm rich and famous ... and I'm the freaking President of the USA!'

It's quite maddening.

So lighten up jackass.

You must read minds, because only the recipient gets to decide. You are at the mercy of other people's interpretations and have to guess and therefore should guess at the most extreme case you can think of.

As soon as you feel chest pains, call up various hospitals and ambulance services to negotiate your costs.

Putting your hand out is a request for handshake. Putting your arms wide to signal an embrace is an invitation to embrace. Puckering up and leaning in is an invitation to kiss.

Or how about may I shake your hand, may I hug you, may I kiss you. Not difficult.

And to answer your question yes it's always the fault of the person who touched if they did not ASK.

And I'll be honest you know exactly how to request for contact so I find your post disingenuous

It's not rocket science.

I am a touchy feely kind of person. My whole family is. Nearly every time my hand makes contact with another human being it is a spontaneous act. I rarely even think about it. But when I consider it now, perhaps a very few of my victims have felt some kind of discomfort without me being even aware of it. I'm sorry for that, but it is a low grade "sorry" for sure. For I will tell you, I'd rather live in a world where a the default attitude of a spontaneous touch is considered a form comfort and not harassment.

That does not mean that everyone else is comfortable with that. There's no compulsory sort of touch that's required from anyone.

A handshake can always be offered, but that's really the only touch that is acceptable, unless you already have some sort of relationship with the other person that lets you know them well enough to know how they feel about it. Your touchy-feeliness doesn't give you any rights with anyone else.

You used the word "victims" in your post above. Why?

Just don't, unless you're certain your touch will be welcomed. Ask. Invite. Don't just act. That's how polite people behave.

comfort and not harassment."

Spoken as a true touch-er.

aren't sorry about those times you have violated others' wishes and habits.

No one really gives a shit that you are a touchy feely kind of person. Most people would rather live in a world where people respected each others' boundaries.

where people keep their fucking hands to themselves. Outside of an intimate encounter I do not like being touched by anyone ever.

And while I go ahead and do it, I really despise the custom of shaking hands.

It's creepy, predator touching. It's someone that doesn't respect boundaries.

If you’re constantly compelled to touch people without regard for their feelings that’s just messed up.

possibly your parents didn't explain appropriate touching to you. Either way, I don't know that you mean any harm by it. HOWEVER, now that you know you might be making SOME people (not all) feel uncomfortable, wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution?

Odd you’d use that word.

a form of comfort and not harassment."

Just repeating this for those who may only read subjects. That's the kind of world I want to live in too.

I must say this conversation will make me more sensitive to non-verbal signals that people don't want to be touched. But I refuse to live in a world where I ask someone at a cocktail party if I can touch his arm in agreement with something.

And when I touch you I feel happy... inside.
I've got the feeling that my love, I can't hide, I can't hide, I can't hi.....de.
When you, feel that something, I know you'll understand. When I feel that...

Sorry, I got carried away.

And essentially your answer boils down to this: that much (maybe even most) asking and consenting boils down to non-verbal cues. And given that most of these are NOT taught, only learned over time makes this an honestly hard subject for some males. In my own instance I was raised with NO other human contact than my mother (and left alone much of the time) until I entered the first grade of school at age 7. I missed much of the early 'human socialization' that appears to be the norm for most people and one of the consequences is that I almost always miss the cues that most other people pick up (almost unconsciously) in seconds.

Not yet anyway.

Is the touching involved the same that the "toucher" would do with both genders? A handshake is probably always OK. A kiss from behind, well, maybe not so much.

IMO would make a person look like a jerk. They can have it, but they will also have consequences that likely they will complain about.

Taking this to an extreme is just fodder for right wingers and their snowflake comments. Why everything must be overdone is a mystery to me.

in a familiar manner by someone they don't know. This isn't because it's always assumed to have sexual overtones, but just because some people need a lot of personal space. I would not have felt sexually harassed by Al Franken had he put his arm around me as some women apparently complained about, but I'd just prefer not to have that kind of contact with someone who isn't a close friend. I wouldn't have made any kind of issue about it, though, because in my mind it wouldn't have been sexual, just a bit too familiar. What you probably should do when meeting someone new is offer your hand; handshakes aren't going to be misinterpreted and they won't make people uncomfortable who need a lot of personal space.

If someone is crying and seems to need consoling, and you don't know them, ask them if you can help them in some way but don't immediately assume they want to be hugged. If you know them you'll know whether it's OK.

Some random man, maybe, but Al Franken if known and a politician, you aren't going to see him again, obviously hundreds of people took their photos with him and expected him to put their arm around them.

Public figures aren't entirely unfamiliar. And if you are in a position to see them in person that closely, likely most people they encounter are fine with it. How many people hug Obama when they see him? They don't consider him a total stranger.

But there's a difference, at least to me, between being uncomfortable and being offended. I am likely to be uncomfortable if I am hugged or embraced by someone who is not my close friend, but I would not be offended unless the gesture was clearly sexual. Therefore if Al Franken or some other politician hugged me while a photo was being taken I would feel mildly uncomfortable because that's the way I react internally to such things, but I would not complain, take offense, or assume any improper intent.

Spontaneous touch (obviously only in generally accepted platonic locations like the arm, shoulder, maybe the hand or back) is not a form of harassment. A continued pattern of such spontaneous touch AFTER the touchee has said "please don't do that" is what constitutes harassment. The trick is that a touchee may say that they did not feel free to state their discomfort owing to a perceived power differential between the touchee and toucher.

================

unless directed otherwise, after the fact? That puts the onus on the person who is feeling violated, and that isn’t right.

her shoulders and put your nose in her hair and sniff. Or conversely, ask her if you can do it first.

Before you touch a female in a certain way, ask yourself if you would touch a man in a similar way. Arm around the shoulder probably isn't a problem or a pat on the back. A squeeze around the hips or a pat on the butt of a male coworker is probably going to get you a dirty look, at the very least.

Sorry, but it's just not that complicated.

about what is acceptable touching and behaviour around female coworkers. I'm just saying, it shouldn't be confusing. If they wouldn't treat a male coworker in a certain way for fear of being disrespectful or being thought to be gay, they shouldn't treat a female that way either.

and yet it's pertinent. Thanks for the analogy.

You aren't Joe Biden, and they were not co-workers. It was not an ordinary thing like being at a water cooler, but a political rally.

person demonstrates that they want more contact. It's very simple. Just don't unless it's clearly something that's OK. It you think a hug is in order, ask, "Can I hug you?"

Why would you touch someone in any way unless you knew it was welcome?

How hard is that?

1 active lawsuit against the maggot.
An over exuberant Biden should be a
Non issue.

You wait until you know for sure it's OK.

by touching them or hitting them lightly on the arm for emphasis. I have observed this behavior on her part for 43 years now and have never seen anyone complain. Maybe it's because she is a pleasant 95 pound woman.

You ask "Can I give you a non-sexual hug to prevent any misunderstanding lest you think I was trying anything untoward?"

That's the correct way.

Also a written contract of understanding wouldn't hurt.

I’d see on a different discussion board.

Last edited Sun Mar 31, 2019, 10:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Which is absolutely your right, Codeine my friend ...

But other people have a very different attitude about it.

Aside from someone actually violating the physical space occupied by my body w/o permission ... or touching my genital region ... I don't actually care much about being touched at all. By anyone, within some semblance of reason. I don't want some 80 yo man rolling out of a dumpster dressed only in a trenchcoat and grinding on me or anything, but outside of something on the extreme side? I don't much care, and I'm being 100% honest.

Not saying you're wrong, and I'm right, far from it. I'm only saying there's really quite a continuum of how people of both genders feel about it.

I am also saying that it makes sense for someone thinking of touching another ... to err on the side of caution, not as if everyone ... felt as though you do, until known otherwise

But I'm OTOH not much surprised that some people don't err on the side of caution.

This Has NOTHING to do with political idealogy.

I agree with you on so many things ... was it really necessary to take a cheap shot?

Making a smart alecky comment is so mature.

Just don't touch anyone who hasn't consented.

people, but there are those who just can't accept that they are not the ones who decide other people's physical boundaries.

that a touch would be welcome.

If you think that it might be welcome, then you ask first.

Would you like a hug?

Would you like a kiss?

Would it be alright if I touched your arm?

I like to be touched...I like human contact. But I usually don't initiate the touching unless I am touched first, or, if I have touched the person before, and it was welcomed.

I can't believe there is any question about it.

you to touch her.

I’m a guy and I absolutely hate being touched outside of people with whom I have an intimate relationship. Other than that, hands off.

For situations like the political one, I have seen many who deal with it with ease. Analytically, I think the key is to first make eye contact, talk to each other and if one of the two thinks it good to make any physical contact -- move slowly watching the reaction as you move closer. If there is ANY sign of discomfort, move back immediately.

One thing here is this was NOT a person he knew from previous meetings etc. It is rather strange that before even saying hello, he put his hands on her shoulders and then kissed the back of her head. Obviously, this is not a Trump like attack on her, but hearing the various similar accounts, I wonder why Jill Biden either never told him that someone doing that to her would make her uncomfortable or he ignored her.

If you don't know them well enough to know if they would welcome your touch, you don't know them well enough to be touching them.

I don't know well.

They could then check off the ones they want to and maybe a place at the bottom giving you directions on places you didn't think of or didn't want to write.

that you hand out to everyone you know of the other gender?

to a stranger coming up behind her, smelling her hair and planting a long kiss on her head.

Your response totally makes sense, because her expressing objection to that unquestionably creepy behavior means that all of YOUR social interactions are being thwarted in a completely unreasonable way.

Sheesh

However, physical contact with anyone else is, at best, an invasion of their personal space, but will also be perceived as an intimidating threat, and act of domination or an aggressive move by a unpredictable stranger.

then don't kiss a woman. If you wouldn't nuzzle your nose in a man's hair or neck, then don't nuzzle a woman.

Treat a woman with the same respect with which you'd treat a man.

I know it’s for good reason. It’s the rare woman who sexually assaults a man and all too many men are either genuinely assaultive, have poor abilities to read discomfort, or figure that since they feel comfortable with hugging, casual kissing, hands on arms, shoulders, waists, etc. women feel the same.

But being a Southerner I come from a hugging, hand-talking, far more intimate culture than most and being a woman I am virtually never thought of as skeevy. If we were in many parts of Europe and the Middle East we’d kiss cheeks and same sex people would talk very close and hold hands without thinking about it.

People act as though we all mean the same things by the same acts, but it’s far more complicated than that. People are learning that they need to be more sensitive but I truly feel for those being permanently condemned for acts that have widely varied meanings.

The cultural differences around touching are drastic, from something as little as finger movement or eye contact to what our culture would call obscene.

America is huge compared to other countries and the differences are fairly wide, but we still have certain norms that center on personal space. If there is ever a question it should always be settled before the touching or just don't do it; that's America.

Just be glad we don't live in Afghanistan.

Asking is best, but has everybody here always done that?

Except I have always waited until the second date to ask.

And she didn't ask either.

Sometimes I think women underestimate how much we like to be wanted.

She said to me "you took too long" lol!

That didn't end well for me. She later accused me of trying to get into bed with her and accused me of sexual assault. She was sad so I tried to make her feel better before I went to get us breakfast. Best friends of the opposite sex can be bad.

I come from a loving and hugging family. But after that I don't even hug anyone anymore let alone touch them. I shy off when they try to hug me. Chances I won't take anymore.

You ask. It's not a big deal - and it may well be if you make contact without asking.

I had a student crying in my office on Friday. I asked, "would you like a hug?" and only actually embraced her when she said yes.

Everyone has the right to decide when and where they will be touched, and by whom. Period.

If you have not asked for permission (or you don't have an ongoing relationship in which there is a mutual understanding about physical contact) and your touch is unwelcome, yes - it is always your fault.

Save that shit for people with whom you already have a clear relationship. Touching someone you barely or only casually know is not even vaguely fucking necessary.

You not put out your hand, then I do not go go any further. That should be simple to understand. I will not be offended.

The simple social gesture of offering a handshake in this culture is NOT an attempt at assault. And men should know the difference between shaking a man's hand and shaking a woman's.

I akways ask if I may give someone a hug. If they do not want to, then it is up to them to say so. I will not be offended.

It is up to you to set the boundaries acceptable to you. Do not feel you have to engage in contact if you do not want to.

BUT, do not engage in contact you do not want, and then complain about it later, and blame it on the other person not respecting your boundaries.

— you can never be sure, but that’s usually fairly safe.

Just look at this thread.

It's not ok... it's ok...ask...don't ask... you should know... don't assume.

With all this fear of harassment men have become socially impotent.


You could be accused of TOXIC MASCULINITY !!!!


Is it any wonder why men don't know wtf to do?





And don't get me started if you give a girl a compliment. Lol

Really? That is some retrograde bullshit right there.

Allow me to ask you to respond to my post with an intelligent , well thought out response.

That thread someone linked to downthread is an example. Ugh.

come up behind her, smell her hair and plant a long kiss on her head???? How is a guy supposed to know THAT???

Is it any wonder why men don't know wtf to do???

This is just rank cruelty to men and all the fault of those snowflake women who don't want strangers noses and mouths in their hair. WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE POOR MEN WHO ARE COMPELLED TO PLANT THEIR NOSES AND MOUTHS IN STRANGE WOMEN"S HAIR?????

Damn these women who are so protective of their heads that they are willing to cause all this impotence!!! All this impotence is the fault of the SELFISH WOMEN WITH HAIR!!!!

You’re so obvious.

Especially if they are not close to you, like your wife or girlfriend??

Learnt some rules early on:

1. Don't touch. Either gender. Unless you can justify it on safety concerns. Girl leaning over a Bunsen burner, hair about to catch fire, sort of thing.

2. Don't comment on appearance, dress sense. Either gender.

People of the same age as me though, not a problem. 'How are you?, offer hand, 'Oh, give us a hug!' and you either get a dirty look or a hug. Rely on asking and listening to the verbal or body language response.

"I'm a serial toucher. If the mood strikes me, I just might, out of the blue, embrace you, put my arms around you and squeeze a little without asking"

After a couple of days, notice how much more personal space you have, all the time.

That is what I see..... me me me and this happened to me..... bunch of BS!

Why now?

Seriously? A kiss to the back of the head.... that could be taken as a calm tactic to another.

But stop and think about that so called kiss to the back of the head..... HOW would one KNOW? Got eyes back of their head? Sounds like she was creeped out being with an old guy and she now wanting attention.... GROW UP!

I wouldn’t even know where to start explaining how wrong this is on so many levels.

You say you want to console someone by the use of unsolicited physical contact. Why isn't your first inclination to speak to them? Simply be sincere and authentic and ask what you can do to help... fetch some tissues, a chair, water, etc,. Offers of condolences, sympathy and understanding are more appreciated than having some stranger groping and fondling you.

We've yet to completely distance ourselves from the male dominance that was the norm in past generations, so the Mad Men era still persists. Respect women the same as you would any adult male, not as separate species.

Did I say that?

sweaty hands. It just feels unclean and bacteria thrive on moist surfaces.

People with sweaty hands...please use a knuckle on knuckle hi five!

It has nothing to do with sexual harassment. It is about social touching now.

They want to create a society where there is none. I doubt that is possible. Humans are not like that.

Each society has its own rules about these things, and about space. For example, other cultures stand closer to people they are talking to than Americans do.

and it teaches them they THEY get the right to NOT hug if they don't want to be hugged. They don't have to high five, shake hands, etc IF THEY DON't WANT TO.

I am really amazed at the people finding this so hard to understand.

I'm going to touch you now, do you have permission.

But ultimately I think it's pretty simple...just don't touch other people.

If they want a hug or a kiss or some other comfort, they will ask for it...and if they don't, just assume they don't want it.

Worst case, someone wants a hug or a kiss and doesn't get it from you...so what? They will survive.

Obviously family, friends, and loved ones are the exception...because you've already established permission to touch in most of those cases.