but I also understand that a lot of folks are touch feely, and so I tolerate some stuff because what's the harm to me other than slight discomfort?

the US, in many areas of the world, an expressed aversion to "friendly" (benign) touch would be received with great indignation/insult (or worse)...

Perhaps this will not be an issue for most (who might never seek to travel the world), but I still think it worth considering.

I'm OK with that.

Sorry if that makes them "uncomfortable", too. I'm usually pretty good at gauging body language, but it's not a fail safe. Alternatively, they can enter a room with their arms tightly crossed, across their chest. That's a pretty unmistakable signal.

I have a friend who isn't a fan of being touched, and she's made that clear. Nobody is offended, even though most of our circle is very tactile.

Maybe I'm a weirdo, but I like to think I'm in control of my personal space. Example: We had a CEO who was a real hugger, especially when giving out the 'Employee of the Month' award. I, personally, didn't like the guy - bad vibes sort of thing - but pretty much everyone else LOVED him and gladly returned the hug.

Well, guess who got EOM - little ole me. He came at me, big smile on his face, arms open and ready to hug. I immediately shook my head and reached out, and up, to show him I'd shake his hand, but that was it. The entire company witnessed our little 'ballet'. It took some rather EXTREME body language, but in the end, I got the award without a hug. And, the next few times I was called down for the ceremony, he never again did anything but offer his hand.

And, on a side note, it turns out I was right about the guy. He was a phony and his self-aggrandizing and really shoddy business sense ended up destroying the company.

I'm not talking here about work-place cultures where a power differential comes into play. We have a lot to thank #MeToo for on that front.

is the thing I feel has been overlooked in the current Sturm und Drang involving VP Biden. Unless the President is there being Vice President probably means you are the most powerful person in the room. If you are there to enhance someone's political fortunes I don't see how the subject of your enhancement can do anything except grin and bear it. With all that I don't think he is malicious just unaware of the possibility that

If you feel you can't speak up, that has to change, as people cannot read minds.

You're a fan of invading people's space -- and to be clear, we're talking about touching and bodily contact here -- without permission?

Personal space is just that. You don’t have a right to invade it. Be prepared to suffer the consequences if you do.

I don’t like to be touched. Like many on the spectrum. Around 1 in 5 people suffer from sensory issues. Making light of it and telling them to lighten up is assinine and ingorant.

People act they’re entitled to hug or touch someone. You are not. Fuck that shit.

I am not a huge fan of touchy freely stuff, but I would not respond with violence. You must be a blast at parties.

If not you would be a lot better person if you withdraw right now. If so how do you not understand what you just read.

Smh.

what it means for a person to be "on the spectrum" do you? Or do you just not give a shit?

Is it something in the air today?

I have quite a few friends who are on the spectrum in fact it has been suggested I may be as well. I understand what someone who is on the spectrum and touch sensitive goes through and how truly difficult it can be.

I tend not to engage with hostile people if I can help it. Toodleloo!

It can be generally known, but then the others have to know they are on the spectrum. No one can read minds.

spectrum often cannot--literally *cannot*--tolerate certain kinds of touch.

Take care now.

and take them out for a spin they are very descriptive words.

Let it go... no need to make this a huge nasty thing. Biden says he's learned his lesson, everyone is settling down, and we can move on.

I’ll push you away regardless.

it is amazing to me how many people feel they are owed a hug or that there is no way their hand on your shoulder could be a problem.

stop with the false extremes. They just have no way of reading minds when it comes to who does not subscribe to normal social standards.

if someone accidentally bumps you or brushes against you in a crowd? Seems kind of extreme.

And you reply with physical force, then you should immediately be arrested and charged with assault. No excuses, no exceptions.

I’d claim self defense. Get your fucking hands off me. You are NOT entitled to put your hands on me.

Just sayin.

I stick out my hand. Some have to be pushed away.

And I deal with this a lot as a recording engineer and performing musician. Most people in the area know me and my preferences, but there’s always a drunk asshole...

I sad ACCIDENTLY touches you, as in a crowd or elevator, I did not say jack shit about a hug.

And I would not even offer you my hand, lest you missenterpret that.

as you are outside what is customary and people can't read minds.

... if you did, there were no consequences.

A lot of them don't like to be touched and they notice every single time. Some will let you know and some won't.

Which is something our society has gotten much better at in the last 50 years, but we aren't great at it. If someone says they have a certain experience, then that's the experience they have. People on the extremes have to know where they stand and have some responsibility too.

Last edited Sat Apr 6, 2019, 09:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Don’t treat me like a freak because you wanna go around touching everyone.

That’s for sure.

I used to be notorious for worse, and have the scars to show for it, emotional and physical.

Getting bumped around in a crowded subway isn't likely to set me off, but an unwelcome hug, or worse, the dreaded unexpected back-or-shoulder rub, even a kiss on the neck from behind, might.

It pisses me off that I'm the one who is supposed to suffer uninvited touching.

Just don't fucking touch me or anyone else without invitation, okay?

Remember when George W. Bush gave Angela Merkel an uninvited shoulder rub?

I don't care for that. People aren't mind readers either that you have issues with having someone slap your arm after a joke. If we all got set off after un welcomed hugs it would be a lot more violent country.

societal changes. Most people aren't extremists or neurotically over sensitive, but most also aren't noisy. They're quiet, but something like 250 million reasonably sensible, decent and balance people make themselves felt in society anyway.

false black and white thinking.

Society tends to have some general standards on things. They change over time.

No touching. Don't even try to talk to people on the telephone. I've heard plenty of millennials talk about how rude it is to call without asking permission via text first.

I thought the whole notion of safe spaces was some sort of put-on joke till I actually saw one. I laughed.

Determining if it's welcome is easy.

For some, none of that is fine or easy.

You say, “Most of society doesn't define the protection of personal space as "don't touch without permission."”

Don’t touch people without consent. I was taught that. I thought everyone knew that. Hell im barely old enough to remember even more formal rules about when a man could even shake a woman’s hand. (Hint, grandma taught me a lady had to offer her hand first. A man who ignored that rule was a clod or boorish. That changed over boomer lifetimes as more women entered the workforce.)

Kids today are taught that “no means no” and that they have autonomy over their own bodies. It’s in sex ed and rape prevention starting with toddlers.

Unwelcome physical contact is assault in some states. It is taught as possible sexual harassment by HR departments.

The kids I see at university don’t seem to have trouble navigating it. I find them in great heaps and piles in the common areas. Consent does not seem hard or extreme to me.

in the world hugs you a bit too long, breathes in your hair or touches your thigh or makes you feel uncomfortable? If you find it creepy and want to slap him what do you think would happen?

know you, and not for just a day or two. And if there is a big power differential between us, a handshake is the proper way to touch.

For eons, men have used the 'power differential' to get sexual jollies AND to assert their dominance in the workplace. Touch is one way they have done this. Let's not pave that over like we don't know that this has been happening forever. The handsy boss, the leering customer, the elevator ass grab. When Bush gave Merkel a shoulder massage, it was to assert his dominance over her. When Trump does his handshake trick and tries to pull the other person into a stumble, he's asserting his dominance. When Biden smells your hair and kisses your head like you are a five-year-old niece, it's hard to think that that 'touch' is innocent, even if it is. What's worrisome is that Biden can't see that the above three touches are the same.

touching in the public sphere.

Yes, and then complain that putting the hands up or putting the arm up to avoid it makes them feel bad. So everyone should change for them. Otherwise they are being "ostracized." That's just not fair to the vast majority.

Why do people believe they have a right to erase lifetimes of experience if they feel inconvenienced by the possibility that someone does not experience interactions with them the way they intend?

A pat on the head is not so innocent to a person who uses a wheelchair and has had to put up with people disregarding their personal space and even patting them in condescending ways.
And, it has a totally different meaning for someone who has had to put up with people wanting to touch their curly hair.

offstage, about to go out and give a speech, when Biden laid his hands on her from behind, put his nose in her hair, and kissed her on the top of the head.

The Vice President was about to give a speech, too -- on her behalf as a Democrat. That was a power differential in a work space, even if she was still just applying for the job. She had to put up with his behavior, and even smile afterwards -- if she wanted to help her campaign.

Last edited Sun Apr 7, 2019, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

a steady work location. That doesn't mean they're not working -- as Flores was, trying to get the job of representative.

You might as well say Hillary wasn't working when she was out on the campaign trial. Just because she wasn't earning a salary doesn't mean she wasn't working and deserving to be treated as a professional.

He is not her boss. He doesn't hold any office right now, and further, can't have any effect to the state office she was running for! If she can be LG of a state, she is tough enough to tell a former VP to fuck off. She could win the election whether he appeared for her or not, and if not, she could still value her personal space over his help.

I know the difference between inappropriate sexual groping and a friendly hug or peck on the cheek. People need to have the confidence to simply say something like, "I don't like being touched. Please take a step back."

It was an awkward experience, the last two weeks. It can be over if we let it be over.

Telling women, however, that they should just keep quiet, well, we've heard that all our lives, and that doesn't work either.

Everyone has learned what they need to learn from this. Let's let it go and get back to the job of defeating the man who, lest we forget, is happy to have armed police rip babies away from their mothers and send them who knows where.

Cause we don't do this to men!!!! We expect men to stick out their hand, and women are just supposed to be comfortable having their space invaded by men or be called reactionary, unsocial, complainers, or having issues. Most of the intrusion doesn't happen in a face to face greeting, it is often surreptitious and from behind or the side.
"a power differential comes into play"-is usually male to female. And since we can stop pretending this is an issue for men, let's get real and state that it usually a male in a position of social/economic/political power who is the offender. Do you think women in politics aren't at work?
And just for the record-touching people without assent, permission, an established relationship because you grew up in a era when women were not given the option of consent, and criticized just like you have posted, as over-reacting, or extreme is hostile.