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Mosby

(16,350 posts)
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 02:32 PM Apr 2019

Some people are uncomfortable with touchers like Biden. Should they set the rules?

The unwritten rule can be as indelible as any chiseled into a tablet. That’s its genius and its curse. But because norms recalibrate, and today’s are still sorting themselves out, not everyone got the invisible memo that says a person shall not hug, pat, brush, graze, stroke, clasp, rub, squeeze or nuzzle another without first obtaining or at least intuiting consent.

Joe Biden certainly didn’t get that memo. He has operated on his own tactile terms for years, and now he faces an unexpected hurdle as he ponders a twilight run for the White House. Several women have said that when Biden’s exuberant greetings or gestures of support involved touching them, they felt uncomfortable, leading some progressives to hint that he should sit this one out.

Manhandling, assault, uninvited sexual touching — that sort of contact has long violated social norms (as well as laws). But the move to regulate behavior that makes people “uncomfortable”? This treads on newer turf. Life presents “uncomfortable” moments daily, after all, and they differ from person to person. Should rejecting discomfort be the new norm? Should it be what makes me uncomfortable? Which comfort level should dictate? Good luck finding the line of demarcation. Even if we could, such a taboo would set up a Blakeian battle pitting innocence against experience. “Someone should put the bloody brakes on it,” says Francis McGlone, a neuroscientist at Liverpool John Moores University and an evangelist for social touch.

Norms governing touch are headed to a place where they can cause harm, says McGlone, who studies C-tactile afferents, the nerve fibers that respond to gentle touch. C-tactile afferents are “beautifully, exquisitely evolved,” McGlone says, and without the touch that they respond to, babies have weaker neural responses and longer hospital stays, do not gain as much weight and are more at risk for autism. But the benefits derived from this nerve fiber — he’s fond of calling it “the Higgs boson of the social brain” — don’t end in infancy. McGlone points to higher rates of mortality among lonely people, who make up a large proportion of the elderly. What do the lonely elderly have in common? They don’t get touched, he says. “Don’t piss around with 3 million years of evolution,” McGlone admonishes. It “doesn’t make mistakes.” Social touch is “a biological necessity.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/some-people-are-uncomfortable-with-touchers-like-biden-should-they-set-the-rules/2019/04/12/9f8a49da-5bbb-11e9-842d-7d3ed7eb3957_story.html

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Some people are uncomfortable with touchers like Biden. Should they set the rules? (Original Post) Mosby Apr 2019 OP
K&R louis c Apr 2019 #1
Very interesting. LakeArenal Apr 2019 #2
It is imperative on the touchers to not touch unless they get permission. Blue_true Apr 2019 #3
Give me a break! Imagine a cocktail party where... LAS14 Apr 2019 #5
+ 1 loyalsister Apr 2019 #13
When I went to Vietnam we were told not to pat people on the head. dogman Apr 2019 #4
Hope it takes another 25 years or more for the norm to change. sinkingfeeling Apr 2019 #6
same here. nt Mosby Apr 2019 #7
Oh FFS! leftstreet Apr 2019 #8
He does. He is similarly demonstrative with men too. Where have you been that you've missed that? hlthe2b Apr 2019 #9
What nonsense. I touched 3 strangers today in a grocery store. 2 were male and sinkingfeeling Apr 2019 #10
It's pretty clear that he or she didn't. OilemFirchen Apr 2019 #14
You are aware that women are lonely in old age as well, right? Bettie Apr 2019 #11
I'd add we have Bettie Apr 2019 #12
That was exceptionally well-written - a rarity these days Thanks for the link. (n/t) OilemFirchen Apr 2019 #15
I've dealt with this for... tonedevil Apr 2019 #16
IMHO, per the Biden back touch: If you snuggle up to Joe for a pic, don't be surprised he'll touch y lindysalsagal Apr 2019 #17
Absolutely not. MicaelS Apr 2019 #18
I just find it unseemly that these women also have an alterior political preference. nt Baltimike Apr 2019 #19
Touch that is unwanted doesn't "provide benefits." I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. WhiskeyGrinder Apr 2019 #20
I think the point the author was making Mosby Apr 2019 #21
It seems an odd thing to write an article about when the discussion around Biden et al. was whether WhiskeyGrinder Apr 2019 #23
I met Joe Biden and he was great... cynatnite Apr 2019 #22

Blue_true

(31,261 posts)
3. It is imperative on the touchers to not touch unless they get permission.
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 02:49 PM
Apr 2019

And even then, they ONLY touch how and where given permission.

LAS14

(13,783 posts)
5. Give me a break! Imagine a cocktail party where...
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 03:02 PM
Apr 2019

... you are constantly saying, "That was a hysterical joke! Can I pat you on the back?" Or, "I couldn't agree more! Can I touch you on the arm?" Sometimes if you're on the extremes of a spectrum (not the autism spectrum... please... we've been down that side-track), you just have to learn to give off "don't touch" signals and/or deal with it.

The alternative is a PC parody of fun and comraderie.

loyalsister

(13,390 posts)
13. + 1
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 05:45 PM
Apr 2019

There's a fine line between showing affection and asserting dominance and if a person isn't sure which is behind a touch, there is no sense in forcing someone into trying to figure it out by giving them the benefit or the doubt or questioning their motives. It's uncomfortable and unnecessary.

I wonder how many defenders would try to justify the practice children have had of touching someone's curly hair to see what it felt like. Or, patting a wheelchair user on the head. Or, dismiss an emotional response given by a torture survivor who has PTSD.

We use our experiences to help us define our preferences for social interactions. We don't wear signs, so it's a matter of basic respect to not assume we know how much of us other people want in their space.

dogman

(6,073 posts)
4. When I went to Vietnam we were told not to pat people on the head.
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 02:59 PM
Apr 2019

They said it was taboo for Buddhists. It was not that they were not a touchy society, they shocked most Americans because the soldiers would walk around holding hands. My urologist has recommended Fist bump as it limits contact for the spread of germs. At least that's how he greets me, and I have the choice to make that contact.

leftstreet

(36,112 posts)
8. Oh FFS!
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 03:28 PM
Apr 2019

So now women are to blame for mortality rates of lonely old codgers?

Jesus Pole Vaulting Christ on a Crutch

Men like Biden simply need to touch women in the same way they touch men.

Or, for a lesson, try touching men the way he's been touching women.
See what happens

sinkingfeeling

(51,473 posts)
10. What nonsense. I touched 3 strangers today in a grocery store. 2 were male and
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 04:48 PM
Apr 2019

I'm a woman. Did you read the article?

OilemFirchen

(7,143 posts)
14. It's pretty clear that he or she didn't.
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 07:03 PM
Apr 2019

Nowhere in the article are women to blame for anything the (female) author discusses.

Bettie

(16,124 posts)
11. You are aware that women are lonely in old age as well, right?
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 05:05 PM
Apr 2019

The fact is that the new rule seems to be moving toward "never, ever, touch another living person" unless there is a signed, notarized document detailing what type and duration of touch is permitted as well as witnesses who will swear that the contract has been fulfilled.

Bettie

(16,124 posts)
12. I'd add we have
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 05:08 PM
Apr 2019

people on the SCOTUS and in the White House who have been credibly accused of actual sexual assault. One has even bragged about his ability to sexually assault people and yet we're set on destroying Joe Biden and ensuring that no one on our side ever makes physical contact with another person again.

It would be funny if it wasn't so freaking sad.

 

tonedevil

(3,022 posts)
16. I've dealt with this for...
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 08:01 PM
Apr 2019

several decades. I have never been very comfortable with touch, but the discomfort got a lot more intense in my late twenties early thirties and has remained so until now when I am in my early sixties. It is true and I fully acknowledge that unless I express my distress there is no reason to think that other people will read my mind and act accordingly. The thing I have had the most difficulty with that is that just like in this article not wanting to be hugged or even touched is viewed highly skeptically. Many people express disbelief that their touch can be uncomfortable to someone else. I have been told about the need for human touch many times usually to convince me that I'm going to whither if I don't take the hug that is on offer right now.
It would be very nice to be able to say no thank you to the hug or back slap and have that be the end of it. One thing I have learned when dealing with touchy-feely people is that no rarely means no to them. Even realizing that I am in the minority I still have a dream of having my bodily autonomy respected. This past week has made me see more clearly than ever that is a dream that will probably never materialize.

lindysalsagal

(20,730 posts)
17. IMHO, per the Biden back touch: If you snuggle up to Joe for a pic, don't be surprised he'll touch y
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 08:06 PM
Apr 2019

you. If you are terrified Joe Biden (honestly, the sweetest guy in the world) is going to touch you, (in public, with photographers and strangers milling about) and it's going to cause you irreparable damage,

THEN DON'T EFFING RUN UP TO HIM FOR THE INTIMATE PHOTO OP!

Keep your distance, and that terrifying dragon, Joe Biden, will not harm you in the least.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
18. Absolutely not.
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 08:21 PM
Apr 2019

I am getting very tired of how we must defer to the lowest denominator. If you do not like being touched then make it clear from the start. Do not expect the rest of society to defer to you.

And I fall on the lower end of the spectrum, but I have learned to deal with by using my coping skills. I do not expect the rest of the society to defer to me, since I am in a minority.

Baltimike

(4,146 posts)
19. I just find it unseemly that these women also have an alterior political preference. nt
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 08:23 PM
Apr 2019

It's very shady

Mosby

(16,350 posts)
21. I think the point the author was making
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 08:36 PM
Apr 2019

Is that the 1% or whatever of people who don't like being touched should not be the arbiters of social norms concerning physical contact.

WhiskeyGrinder

(22,431 posts)
23. It seems an odd thing to write an article about when the discussion around Biden et al. was whether
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 10:56 PM
Apr 2019

touching *without consent* should be a norm.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
22. I met Joe Biden and he was great...
Fri Apr 12, 2019, 08:54 PM
Apr 2019

We talked for a few minutes, he gave me a peck on the cheek, put his arm around me and we posed for a picture together.

I've been around enough that I know when someone is being creepy. Dealt with that shit in the Army.

This was nothing like that. Just a good guy who is affectionate. That's all.

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