/nt

From the linked article:

First response should have it at the ready always, no back up might get there in time excuses feel right at all?

Of course if it's someone attacking the arriving first responders, it's a different story.

One of my cousins is a 25 year officer in Virginia, I don't take this too lightly.

Wouldn't that immediately escalate situations far more then necessary? In the video, the 1st responder didn't draw his weapon until the girl started making threatening moves.

That's not my line, there are other methods which could include, tazers, tranqullizers, pepper spray, flash grenades, & new tech we don't even know about?

Saginaw police department said they work great. CO2 powered, cost $750 each, paid for with drug money seizures and it cost $1.60 to reload it after it's fired.

I don't want any more stupid preventable shootings, it could be you, it could be me.

I watched Arrow, there are options!

"Karl said he eventually would like to buy a second net gun and have one sergeant on the day shift and another on the night shift carry the devices. He said it will be available to assist other agencies."

https://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/2014/04/net_gun_will_tangle_saginaw_co.html#incart_river_default

"750.226 Firearm or dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument; carrying with unlawful intent; violation as felony; penalty.

Sec. 226.

(1) A person shall not, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, go armed with a pistol or other firearm, or a pneumatic gun, dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument.

(2) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $2,500.00."

https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(cosa3lh2alyig0ji4fv3whmo))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-226

In Michigan, threatening with a knife is treated the same as threatening with a gun.

Using non lethal force against a lethal force should be mandatory?

Lethal force as the only one, not good, too many mistakes possible on a hair trigger trained brain that isn't always well rested?

Christ, what a shitshow.

He made a completely reasonable request of her. She chose to do the exact opposite.

There is clearly something mentally wrong with the kid. I have no doubt of that. She kept saying she'd been waiting all day. She said:

"Shoot me. I've been waiting all day. I've been waiting. Come on." It looks a lot like an attempt at suicide by cop.

If I were on a grand jury for this police officer I would not vote to indict.

taking control of the situation and clarifying what he needed her to do, he lost what little control he had of the situation and let her take the lead, and reacted to her actions.

the last damn thing on my mind is to say "Let's talk about this over some burgers and fries".

She had a weapon. She approached him with said weapon. She refused to put down said weapon. She started approaching faster like she was gearing up for a charge.

Even for a civilian in virtually all states that would have been considered a justified use of force.

The fucking murderous coward shot a girl from 20 feet away.

See how fast you can run towards someone 20 feet away. The time is seconds. And a knife is a LETHAL weapon. You can seriously wound or kill someone with a knife. The officer did the correct thing.

He had plenty of space to keep out of critical distance. He has a gun she cannot beat that trigger finger unless he’s slow as molasses. No way a trained officer is in any danger talking this obviously distressed girl down. instead they overdramatized the danger to evade charges.

It’s why we hear these knife statistics each time they shoot a person with a knife.

There is a video with Dan Inosanto, a world-famous martial artist trained in a wide variety of knife systems. It’s where police came up with the 21 ft rule.

There are very few people in the world with the skills of Mr. Inosanto and fewer still of them that are going to randomly attack a police officer.

I'm sure your local police force has a ride along program. Taking a ride along may be the best thing for someone who thinks the officers life was not in danger.

Also go to a dinner, or some other eating establishment when there are a few police cars there. Police are very friendly group when not "on the clock" and would probably not have a problem chatting about local issues.

At the end, true. But for the minute leading up to that, he had plenty of time to try and self-defense beyond yelling commands. He didn't.

his training includes disarmament. Why train if you’re simply going to use a gun or taser?

Instead they escalated the situation because their demands weren’t met. If that’s how they are trained it’s incredibly idiotic.

How is it that mental institution social workers and bartenders the world over can manage to get control of violent mental patients every day but the police can’t seem to do anything but overreact and kill them.

Like when they are called about a fight in a bar, instead of de-escalating they scream curse words demand and, yell calm down! or relax!

Want to know how to instantly enrage an already upset person? Tell them to “calm down!” Or “Relax!”

don't have guns or knives.

Bartenders never call the police? I would think most would if someone was there threatening someone with a knife or gun.

out of ordinary objects. No, bartenders and mental health workers don’t have time to wait for police to show up.
They regularly talk down and/or control agitated people.


This woman had a knife he knew about before he arrived. She walked up slowly with a knife while he ordered her around like a prisoner. It’s the wrong approach, he escalated the danger to himself. This isn’t rocket science. Talk to others they way you want them to talk to you.
Would the police treat another officer who was distressed enough to want commit suicide like this ?

This is how a professional law enforcement officer does their job.

https://m.

Everyday Joes have the option of running and calling the police. He had to do something about it. What would you be saying if he got in the truck and left and she harmed herself or another after that? She had plenty of chances to drop the knife. She didn't have to start running towards him with it. You're practically making him responsible for what she does and leaving her none at all.

He could have stayed in his police car and called for help for her. If he felt he had to shoot a kid, he could have shot her once in the leg.

It's hard to hit a leg in motion and a leg shot can kill in seconds if it severs the femoral artery, which is rather easy with standard hollow point bullets. With adrenaline running, it's hard to even hit a moving target at all. especially with a handgun that has to be immediately raised into firing position. Also, he had to get out of the car to approach the girl in the first place, and the knife was not visible on approach.

What is not discussed in the video is the calls to 911 about a crazy woman with a knife were from her cell phone. This was a suicide by cop attempt. For the training he did have, which was not social or mental, he showed a lot of reluctance to use force and was stalling for backup to enable other options. Compare this guy to the nutjob driving up to Tamir Rice and blasting him in seconds. It's not even close.

is not:

1. your friend
2. your caseworker
3. your therapist
4. your babysitter
5. your "de-escalator"
6. your mom and dad

etc.

They are:

1. trained to hit center mass
2. protectors of white privilege
3. enforcers of "blue Isis"
4. protectors of property
5. scared as shit
6. often dumb as a brick

They are trained to mistrust, lie, brutalize, and take away your civil rights for "officer safety."

If you play stupid games with a police, you WILL win a stupid prize.

Best to avoid them at all costs. If they're fishing, out of pocket, etc., just let them arrest you. You stand a better chance of surviving (they'll probably still kick your ass) in booking at the cop shop.

Do you have any experience in these cases?

I guess it's not that easy to shoot a running subject in the precise area of the body, no? Do you seriously think it would be possible to shoot a running person in a small area such as a knee?

Just hearing a gun shot would most likely have stopped her.

and the bullet could very well fall on and kill some kid walking to the library.

Why don't police shoot people in the legs?

Hitting a running target in the knee while is pure Hollywood.

A good argument though for non-lethal alternatives (like tasers), assuming they weren't available but not used for whatever reason.

She kept advancing with a goodly sized knife, despite being given multiple commands to drop it and was only shot after she picked up speed in approaching the officer.

For all those who say "But it's just a knife" keep in mind it only takes a couple seconds for a person at full charge to cover several yards.

The cop gave her every chance. When she charged him, he had no choice.

This is one of those cases where I back the officer 100%.

I think there are people on this thread just trolling

the girl was young and obviously disturbed -

that I was taught.

About three parking spaces wide, perhaps a bit less; parking spaces are around 7 1/2 to 9 feet wide, so under 27 feet and possibly as little as 21.

Once they have been unable to gain compliance for an armed person to drop that arm, in a case in which a police or civilian life is threatened, it is universal police training to make a quick and lethal decision. Officers called to the scene can not judge intent, the possibility of additional assailants, the presence of another weapon, or whether or not, should an armed aggressor not be controlled, civilians are at risk.
If you want to argue against this protocol, then you must come up with another universal operating standard to ensure law enforcement and civilian life is not at risk from the use of lethal force.
In England, where knife casualties are more common, it has been shown that multiple people can be killed by one individual armed with a knife.
This case is clearly one of justifiable homicide.
The majority of officers do not want to have to draw a weapon in a lifetime policing.
Though there will be trauma for family, the officer will not be unaffected.

She had an agenda in mind. She made that agenda happen. The cop, in THIS case, in innocent of wrong doing.

Let me be clear here. I think the hashtag #acab has a lot of evidence to support it. Not in this case.

This isn’t the type of police shooting that feels motivated by racism or unreasonable anger or paranoia.
But society’s method of addressing a depressed teen girl with a. Knife, and mentally distressed people in general, can be dramatically improved.

The officer gave her space and walked back from her to keep a safe distance. He only fired when she started running toward him. He gave her plenty of opportunities to drop the knife or not approach. Could a non-lethal method have been used if available yes, but overall I think this was a reasonable shoot.

And he was a hell of a lot closer than she was. He was actually pressing it against my leg. If I had only been allowed to carry a gun to school that day!

And, yes, this is a true story. It just underlines the stupidity of the cop in this video.

Curious.

I put it down as just another incident in middle school. That was a horrible year! In my math class, the "kid" who sat directly behind me was 18. That was 7th grade math, and he was 18! He used to give me lead fingers all the time until I stood up in the middle of class and yelled at him. The teacher moved me to another desk and told him to start behaving.

Many years ago, that happened to me. Kid walked away.

Depressed seventeen year old girl with a knife.hope she survived. Sad that it got so far.

The guy was in the front seat and put a knife to my neck. I could not jump out because I had my young daughter in the back of the van. So, I just talked and talked in a super calm voice, acting like I didn't see the knife and asking him questions about his friends and himself. Finally, he put the knife back in his pocket. When we got to the hospital, he would not go in the front door and made us accompany him through some back door. When we got to the dept where he wanted to go, I grabbed my daughter and we ran into a door that said do not enter, spoke with a nurse and she went up to him all sweet, knowing his name and asked for his knife which he gave her. I was scared shit, but the cop could have interacted more with the girl initially as she was obviously very mentally ill.

There are too many stories of police killing mentally ill people when their family calls. All cops should have non lethal spray or a taser on their belt. In my small town, there was a crazy cop with a super short fuse and it did not end well.

Why no taser? You can shoot someone with a taser from a safe distance!

I’m so impressed by your quick decision to pretend you didn’t see the knife. It makes sense—not escalating the situation—but I don’t think I would ever have been so smart.

That must have been so traumatic, especially because of your daughter’s presence. I’m so sorry you went through that and so glad you thought so quickly.

But this was clearly attempted suicide by cop. She regretted it once she felt just how much getting shot actually hurts. I feel sorry for her, but this cop did nothing wrong. And the truth is, he has to live with this now too. And I know we all like to think of cops as emotionless, sadistic monsters (and don't get me wrong, some of them are), the fact is that things like this are why police have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession.

She was running at him when he shot. Was he supposed to get stabbed before shooting?

Don't cops carry batons these days? But it's always the "I feared for my life" excuse. When your go-to tool is a gun, that's what gets used first.

and upheld by courts.

A local cop where I live was killed with a knife. He was chasing someone. They turned suddenly with the knife and killed him with it.

Last edited Sun May 12, 2019, 03:28 PM - Edit history (1)

and killed this cop?

How long do they have to wait?
How long does it take to talk her down? How much is her life worth? Apparently not more than a few minutes of a cops time.

Yet good cops talked a man into giving up his AR15 he was threatening them with
Took them 45 minutes.

They could have continued to evade her for hours
Are they that out of shape? Why learn hand to hand if you’re always going to go for the gun first?

Last edited Sun May 12, 2019, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)

No time to talk her down.

He called her over to his car for heaven’s sake!

Then he started making demands. This is the kind of crap that escalates the situation. No one needs to have a degree in psychology to understand compassion and basic respect for others.

How about talking to people instead of belting commands?
How about not treating every person with mental issues like they’re a serial killer or violent gang member?

Academy so you can teach them properly.

You can’t totally control others. You are Monday morning quarterbacking. There is no guarantee that there is never to be a situation where the police are correct to shoot someone.

if you’ve never been a cop you have no room to speak. Really?
I don’t need to be a waitress, barber, doctor, dentist to see when they are incompetent either.

He had plenty of time, plenty of room, could have showed a modicum of respect or empathy but chose to be a demanding, dehumanizing jerk and killed her.

I swear with some ppl there us absolutely nothing too heinous any officer can do. They will always worship them like they walk on water.

Your last sentence is unfair and shows you will never be objective - a police officer is always wrong in your view.

What is your job? I would be interested if you are willing to entertain criticism from those who have no experience in it.

might survive its just dandy??

And lol! My family is full of law enforcement! My bil the chief of police in a mid sized midwestern city.
I am fully trained and certified in several martial arts styles and have actually trained with police.
All are highly aware of the internal code “speak out, and you’re no longer “one of us.” You’re one of “them.”
Some of them believe they are worth more than others. That they are most moral ppl on earth and they sure aren’t putting their lives on the line for anyone. They enjoy pushing their weight around though.

But since you’ll simply accuse me of lying , maybe you’ll listen to a former officer-words from a man who tried to be a good officer:


“ But an even more serious problem — police violence — has probably grown worse, and it’s out of control for the same reason that graft once was: a lack of accountability.
I tried to be an honest cop in a force full of bribe-takers. But as I found out the hard way, police departments are useless at investigating themselves—and that’s exactly the problem facing ordinary people across the country


Today the combination of an excess of deadly force and near-total lack of accountability is more dangerous than ever:
Most cops today can pull out their weapons and fire without fear that anything will happen to them, even if they shoot someone wrongfully. All a police officer has to say is that he believes his life was in danger, and he’s typically absolved. What do you think that does to their psychology as they patrol the streets—this sense of invulnerability?

Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act 20 years ago, requiring the Justice Department to produce an annual report on “the use of excessive force by law
enforcement officers,” the reports were never issued.)“. James J Fyfe

Even Serpico has spoken out since Ferguson but the cop apologists just stab them right in the back.

Ppl who continuously exaggerate the dangers of everyday cops will allow them to get away with anything.
It also takes away from the efforts and pain of officers who really have put their lives on the line for people.

You are certainly willing to judge others, but you are not a police officer from what you've described. So whatever you actually do, are you willing to entertain criticism from those who do not do it?

I have condemned my fair share of cops for their actions in many of the cases discussed on DU, found them to be in the wrong. So a lot of your language in inapplicable.

It's not fine and dandy because they don't die, but you are inaccurate to claim she died when she didn't. It does make a huge difference to her.

I am sure there a plenty of people who think they are worth more than others. One does not have to be a cop to think that.

How about actually trying to talk her out of holding the knife? Could have tried reassuring her that he was there to help and that other people were also available to help.

I worked at a psychiatric hospital for many years and talked people into giving up weapons (a razor, a chair, an eating utensil) on several occasions. We were trained that use of force was always to be applied in the least harmful way possible in any situation. If you have to use force, use it....but don't use more force than the situation calls for.

That cop went from "drop it" to shooting her without trying other tactics. I know he was in a bad situation where he could have been hurt or killed, but he still should have tried other ways of talking to her before he resorted to lethal force.

the person who's clearly going through some kind of internal struggle. I'd love to see a first-responder crew that includes people trained in emergency crisis counseling and with a different scale of using force.

I know from experience that not even police officers are allowed to bring a deadly weapon into a psychiatric unit as such items are to be secured in a combination safe outside of the unit.

Your comment:

"That cop went from "drop it" to shooting her without trying other tactics."

At the beginning of the video, the cop was friendly and his service pistol was holstered. It was the girl who escalated the situation.

The girl did indeed escalate the situation, but the cop had enough time to say more than he did. He had time to engage her verbally and didn't get much beyond a repeated directive to drop the knife. When she began to run at him he defended himself with his weapon and I don't blame him for that, but I wish he'd had the training and the presence of mind to try to talk her down before it got to that point.

Upon arrival the police officer was friendly towards the girl and did not have his weapon drawn. As for oyur second point, it's possible he may have had the time to her verbally other then a repeated directive to drop the weapon.

Ask her about her feelings? Ideally you can talk them down, but sometimes you just can't.

Including, yes, asking her how she felt and what happened that led to her being there with a knife. Maybe she would have run at him and forced him to use lethal force no matter what he said, but I think he should have tried. That's what I did at the psychiatric hospital where I worked. Sometimes I was able to de-escalate a dangerous situation and sometimes I wasn't. My point is that there are tried and proven techniques that sometimes work and that cop failed to even make the attempt.

tells me all I need to know...
Maybe cops in the US need to take lesson from UK cops in disarming/deescalating in a knife situation

In the UK, they usually have a several police officers protected with shields who surround the armed person. In the video, there was just the 1st responder and it was pointed out in other threads that a 2nd responder was preparing a bean bag gun but didn't have time to use it before the girl made her move towards the 1st responder.

they have armed police in Britain.

yes asking her why do you want me to shoot you? Clearly she is not well. I just think there has to be other ways to respond to this situation rather than possibly killing the other person.

Maybe cops need to take Judo or Karate or something. Policing needs to be looked at with a new approach.

Why didn't he get back in his squad car if he was so damn scared until backup arrived. And when backup arrives would there be any trained mental health professionals present? The whole fucking thing needs a complete overhaul.

and have refrigerators in all police vehicles to give out ice cream and hugs?

It’s easy to judge what you never have to deal with. How do you know he had time to jump in the car? Or that anyone would have thought of that? The cops are not ALWAYS wrong.

He shot her 3 times , I can't believe it took 3 shots.

The officer told her several times. Then she started running towards him.

Yes, he understood the use of force guidelines. His use of force will be cleared by his superiors and the DA.

But it's a 17 yo girl with a knife.

Please.

Don't want to take on any risk then don't become a cop. Study accounting or something, or learn a trade.

is not equivalent to defending cops.

That's just you being hyperbolic.

Because the cop is always wrong? Some people have this ridiculously absurd idea that cops are out there looking to kill people every day. He is on administrative leave while they investigate. It is a big deal to them to get involved in these things. Maybe he should have just driven away and let her do what she wants and stab someone else.

Which he could have easily done using his size, strength and training.

Likely that only happens in movies. If it's possible, we all ought to have that training, in case someone comes at us with a knife.

In fact as seen in the thread, they are trained that a knife can kill within 21 feet.

When I was a corrections officer we were trained to restrain people, but not close contact fighting, but once during a riot when a 250 lb kid was about to smash another kid's head with a cinder block I didn't just stand there, I stopped him.

And yeah, people get hurt, it's the nature of the job.

Don't like it, don't do it.

While they investigate. I doubt he has said he doesn't like it, and just acted as well as he could in the moment.

Two-knife stabbing rampage at Pennsylvania high school injures 22, suspect in custody

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/stabbings-reported-pennsylvania-high-school-article-1.1750425. Many of the victims plus the people that tackled him received life threatning injuries. She chose not to give that cop much of a choice.

-the officer's initial command to drop the knife and sit down were delivered clearly, with pauses between. There was nothing confusing about what he was saying.
-as she continues to approach he draws his gun and backs away. He keeps repeating drop it.
-when she says just shoot me, he backs up further, still repeating the words drop it
-by the time she starts to run at him I estimate he has backed up 100 yards or more
-as she starts to run he tells her to drop it one last time
-she takes 4 running strides, knife in hand, between the last command to drop it and the first shot

While 20/20 hindsight always allows options to criticize, it appears the officer was trying to buy time for backup to arrive and employ a less lethal alternative. I cannot fault the officer for shooting when he did. I do not think he is required to be stabbed a few times before defending himself.

Hopefully the young lady will recover and get the help she needs.

The effective range of a taser is only 10 feet, well within the 21 foot danger zone when facing someone with a knife.

If the taser misses or does not stop the attacker, there is no time to draw any other weapons. Likely the officer would be stabbed before he could drop the taser and engage hand to hand.

Cop made every effort to deescalate and gave the perp every opportunity to stand down.

It sucks, but this is what self-defense is.

But I kind of agree with you. I'm not a cop and don't know any. What I know about the police is what I've "learned" from TV.

This cop sure seemed pretty reasonable. He wasn't out of control. He tried to de-escalate. But this girl seemed pretty intent on suicide by cop. I suppose he could have got back into his car, but he couldn't have know that might have been a better option until the girl had "pushed" him back past it. Maybe if he had gone behind his car door and stayed there while the girl advanced, getting into the car would have been an option. But he was using his judgment at a stressful time and chose to move backward. It seems he didn't draw his gun until he needed to.

I've read that once someone wielding a knife gets into within 20' of someone, they are a real and valid threat and that an armed response is acceptable.

Yes, it would have been great if there was a second officer. Or backup. Maybe a taser would have been a valid option, but I don't really know how accurate these might be at 20 feet with someone closing quickly on you.

In short, lots of maybes and what ifs, and 20-20 hindsight. But I would hold this one up as an out of control cop. Unlike the video the other day where a cop gave a kid with a cap gun less than one second to respond to his command before shooting him.

who would have objected to the taser, too.

Some people believe all cops are bad people and always wrong. I've seen this on DU before and don't understand how you get there - maybe they've had unpleasant run-ins with cops. Even so, that does not justify a broad brush.

DUers have explained to me on multiple occasions for *other* similar cases that police are trained to shoot to KILL and to put their suspect down with no exceptions...

Once you shoot, you shoot to kill. So I guess they would see this cop as a bad shot.

In this instance, I can't fault the police officer. If the training of the entire force is shifted to make them more like social workers, that would be fine with me. But that's not applicable in that video.

If someone else holding a lethal weapon charges at a police officer, especially a cop who has backed up as far as this fellow had, then the officer is understandably converting to self-preservation mode.

None of us wants to see a mentally disturbed individual get shot, but sometimes they leave little choice. It's sad but this isn't a case of an officer mistaking someone reaching for identification going for a gun. This is an identified weapon and multiple commands were given to drop it.

Hopefully the young lady gets the help she needs after that nearly-fatal experience.