Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(108,235 posts)
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:33 PM May 2019

Are We in a Constitutional Crisis?

Jerry Nadler, the New York Representative who is the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, sure thinks so. He said last week, after the White House refused to release the full version of the Mueller report, “Certainly, it’s a constitutional crisis.” He added that the country is “in one because the president is disobeying the law, is refusing all information to Congress.”

Since he issued that statement, others have lined up behind him. On Thursday, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi agreed with him. She said that “this administration wants to have a constitutional crisis because they do not respect the oath of office that they take.”

And over the weekend, Senator and presidential candidate Kamala Harris jumped aboard, although with a bit of equivocation. She told CNN, “I think it is fair to say that we are looking at a crisis, not only of confidence, but potentially a constitutional crisis.”

There is no doubt that more and more Democrats are going to chime in on this question in the coming days and weeks. However, there is also little doubt that this is the wrong question. The right question, and really the only question that matters here, is what anyone is going to do about the situation, above and beyond what we’ve been doing so far (which has accomplished very little in terms of stopping the president). Because whether we are in a constitutional crisis or not is completely irrelevant if all anyone does is talk about it and no one takes any action about it.

We can debate the specifics of what is a constitutional crisis until the proverbial cows come home. Law professors and other legal experts make their money and their reputation waxing intelligent on the issue.

The reality, though, is that there is no magic definition of what is a constitutional crisis and what isn’t one. You can read the Constitution all you want and you won’t find the term mentioned there. Moreover, the term appears only twice in the history of Supreme Court majority opinions (and only three times referring to American history in non-majority opinions), and both times referred to events in American history that happened decades prior to the Court’s use of the term (the 1937 Court-packing threat and the 1832 Nullification Crisis). In other words, the Court used the term with hindsight to describe history, not to evaluate any on-going legal dispute.

-more-

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/constitutional-crisis-nadler-trump-834955/

24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Are We in a Constitutional Crisis? (Original Post) Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin May 2019 OP
probably not until all the legal procedures have been tried and rebuffed nt msongs May 2019 #1
Not yet. Right now it's a constitutional quandary. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #2
I disagree. Trump is clearly instructing the executive to ignore the house tymorial May 2019 #6
But it hasn't happened yet. The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #9
A few points. Igel May 2019 #15
A 'pending' one? n/t sprinkleeninow May 2019 #8
I liked the last paragraph in the article... BigmanPigman May 2019 #3
I have my preferences ProudLib72 May 2019 #18
Stuff that I would get alerted for BigmanPigman May 2019 #19
Let's just say my druthers are a little more serious than impeachment and jailing ProudLib72 May 2019 #20
Both Julia Child and chef Paul Bocuse both died when they were 91 years old. BigmanPigman May 2019 #22
Hee hee ProudLib72 May 2019 #23
Isn't my flag upside down nt benld74 May 2019 #4
Hell yeah! democratisphere May 2019 #5
I lean more towards Sherman A1 May 2019 #7
The crisis is the Constitution zipplewrath May 2019 #10
More like Constitutional constipation so far. Kablooie May 2019 #11
We've been in one since Nov 8, 2016 world wide wally May 2019 #12
No, longer than that. JHB May 2019 #13
You are absolutely right world wide wally May 2019 #17
Nancy Pelosi agreed with Nadler.....good enough for me. spanone May 2019 #14
Yes colsohlibgal May 2019 #16
We passed it and lapped it a few times over KentuckyWoman May 2019 #21
We are in a PRESIDENTIAL crisis SoCalDem May 2019 #24

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,872 posts)
2. Not yet. Right now it's a constitutional quandary.
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:40 PM
May 2019

A constitutional crisis might be, for example, if the Supreme Court ordered the Trump administration to comply with a subpoena and they refused anyhow. How would the order be enforced? The possibility of a constitutional crisis like that was considered after Nixon was ordered to turn over the tapes, but he complied. Trump might not.

tymorial

(3,433 posts)
6. I disagree. Trump is clearly instructing the executive to ignore the house
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:45 PM
May 2019

Further Barr is acting as the president's personal lawyer rather than acting in the best interest of the government and the laws of the United States. It is a blatant and obvious violation of oath of office on both counts. This doesnt even begin to address the fact that the Senate is entirely disinterested in holding the executive branch to account and is complicit in ignoring Trump's treason.

Constitutional

Crisis

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,872 posts)
9. But it hasn't happened yet.
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:49 PM
May 2019

I am waiting for all hell to break loose when the Supreme Court rules against him in some case (it doesn't really matter which one, for these purposes), as eventually it will. I will bet kroner to krugerrands that Trump will refuse to comply with whatever he's ordered to do or not do, and that he might even try to fire the justices that ruled against him (which obviously he can't do). How do the Supremes make him comply with their order?

Igel

(35,359 posts)
15. A few points.
Mon May 13, 2019, 10:08 PM
May 2019

The Senate doesn't have to get involved. The House doesn't control the Senate; a Constitutional crisis is when the mechanisms in the Constitution don't provide for governance according to the Constitution. The Senate can zzzzz during the entire crisis with all but electoral impunity.

There have been numerous times when the House has demanded documents and the Executive has said, "Take a walk." This is usually resolved over the course of a few months with maximal demands and the corresponding maximal counter-claims being whittled down to what's actually required for the legislative or oversight purposes. Which is reasonable and foreseen, negotiation between the two branches. Not a crisis, but expected.

That hasn't always happened. In those cases, often it goes to court for adjudication, which is what the Constitution also provides for. Again, not a crisis, but according to Hoyle. Or Robert's.

Sometimes the court rules for the executive. Sometimes for the legislative. Sometimes it splits the difference and says, "Let us see it, we'll act as mediator."

The crisis happens when one side steps out of line and claims too much power and doesn't want to hew to the mechanisms outlined for negotiating conflicting claims and expectations. And, at times, when one side or the other has just said, "Nah."

But you know, even then it didn't lead to dictatorship or a coup. It wasn't always pleasant, but typically things kept keeping on and things settled down. (What's different now isn't that the level of trust and suspicion and ratched-up rhetoric is so different at the highest levels or between rank-and-file and opposition politicians, but that the news cycle makes it like fast-cycling bipolar as opposed to slower bipolar, so it's worse. You barely get to recover from the last insult to the senses when there's another one--maybe real, maybe ginned up--there, pushed in a way to make you outraged 24/7. Oh--and there's the assumption that it's not just ill-will on the part of the opposition politicians, but entire broad-brush painting of anybody who's not us as the ultimate evil enemy.)

BigmanPigman

(51,636 posts)
3. I liked the last paragraph in the article...
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:43 PM
May 2019

"So declaring we are in a constitutional crisis is really a non-answer to a stupid question. The real question is what we are going to do about it. And so far, the answer is not much."

BigmanPigman

(51,636 posts)
19. Stuff that I would get alerted for
Tue May 14, 2019, 12:01 AM
May 2019

in the past on DU is now not being alerted on anymore. I have the feeling that we will be seeing more intense points of view widely shared and accepted as the norm within a year. I have noticed a lot more pro-impeachment posts and replies as well as calling for jail and/or fines just in the past week.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
20. Let's just say my druthers are a little more serious than impeachment and jailing
Tue May 14, 2019, 12:14 AM
May 2019

Overloading on the cholesterol would do it!

BigmanPigman

(51,636 posts)
22. Both Julia Child and chef Paul Bocuse both died when they were 91 years old.
Tue May 14, 2019, 12:28 AM
May 2019

I have the feeling that an extra order of KFC won't be enough to rid us of this cretin. Maybe if Putin's chef slipped some polonium into the moron's KFC (made to order of course) there would be a similar result.

Sherman A1

(38,958 posts)
7. I lean more towards
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:45 PM
May 2019

being in one in one form or another since The "Esteemed" Mr. Trump took the oath of office.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
10. The crisis is the Constitution
Mon May 13, 2019, 08:58 PM
May 2019

Impeachment would be possible if the Senate represented anything close to the majority of the population. Right now it represents about 30 - 40% of the population. It is only going to get worse. We are getting into a situation where the senate is dictating the court system, and they are preventing the empowerment of the congress to exercise oversight. So we will have a court system that is increasingly constructed of the "30%" and it will only get worse as the demographics become more concentrated in fewer and fewer states. The presidential race, as we have seen, will also be influenced by this, although not to the same degree. But none the less this isn't so much a "constitutional crisis" as it is a crisis created by the constitution.

JHB

(37,163 posts)
13. No, longer than that.
Mon May 13, 2019, 09:43 PM
May 2019

February 13, 2016, the day Mitch McConnell and other Senate Republicans said they would not consider any nominee put forth by Obama.

That was a flat-out break with precedent and dereliction of constitutional duty in order to make the SC seat a partisan football during the election.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
16. Yes
Mon May 13, 2019, 10:48 PM
May 2019

What this Orange Cretin has done is impeachable X 100. He is an embarrassment who will be judged harshly for centuries if we survive his time in the WH.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Are We in a Constitutiona...