And I worry that voters who supported Democrats in 2018 because they wanted something done will say to hell with it if nothing happens. Apparently there are only 2 ways we'll get rid of him: the 2020 election or a blood clot. Damn the Republicans and their hatred of this country.

it will be too late.

I don;t know the answer... a military coup to throw he and has republican traitor accomplices out?

Who knows?

I give the country about 30% odds of coming back from Trump/Barr/McConnell & that goes down a little every month he remains unchallenged.

Or some other dog wagging adventure.

plus, the media already covers literally everything he says and does, so he gets billions (literal billions) in free airtime.

Oh, and then there is the whole thing about the Senate Republicans refusing to do a single thing about securing our elections.

But, we're supposed to feel confident about winning the next election.

I expect to see a Putin style result: Wow, who knew 80% of counted votes would be for him!

😞

But they still did it, because they're relentless in their battle for Power.

Don't relent. Keep moving towards Impeachment as fast as possible, but not faster.

It is a club to beat candidate Trump with. Besides, he deserves it more than Nixon.

Never relent! We have to maintain the momentum from last year if we want to win next year. That means going all out.

Don't even recommend a Senate vote

Vote out of office

I do not believe a president with an impeached sign around his neck is more electable than without it.

F*** the optics. What's right is right.

Best case scenario, other than impeachment, would be to see him voted out and then handcuffed and frog marched out from the Inauguration, or from the White House, should he barricade himself inside and refuse to leave.

And what exactly would be occurring in one that isn't happening now?

A three stooges style slap-fight-to-mutual-assured-destruction between Trump, Pence, and Mitch McConnell would be most welcome.

And it would be a constant pressure applied to his most vulnerable point - his massive ego. So, perhaps initiating the investigation would push and pressure him to the point where the 25th can be triggered.

Personally, I'd love to see him have a full out, spittle producing psychotic 'break', live, on camera. And I understand that might 'out' me as a vengeful individual who has much for which I should atone, but I still live in hope........

But, my exhausted, desperate, drained brain might be causing me to fantasize.

you are 100% correct.

An impeachment inquiry is a judicial investigation, what Democrats are doing now is legislative hearings. To convince a judge to release the grand jury testimony it needs to be for judicial purposes. Of course an impeachment hearing carries more clout with the courts anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong.

Shit, Barr himself stated that he would release grand jury testimony to Congress for an impeachment hearing.

Trump/Barr may very well succeed in delaying everything, in ignoring subpoenas right up to the election.

Saying that voting Trump out of office is the only path is condoning his criminal behavior, is not holding him accountable, is saying that he is above the law. Not impeaching Trump will depress Democratic election turn out. Trump's base will turn out whether or not Democrats impeach.

"Barr himself stated that he would release grand jury testimony to Congress for an impeachment hearing. "
He has ZERO authority to release 6E material on his own. That take a Court order.

But it's funny that people who think he said it would actually believe him and are actually using that as "proof" of what he would do.

to back the claim. I knew there wouldn't be.

That falsehood is repeated regularly here, no matter how often or how politely it's pointed out that he never said it.

the public informed and on-board to have any hope of holding Trump accountable.

where I cannot watch any more MSNBC, because of the constant, disingenuous "what's it gonna TAKE for Pelosi to ACT"????, followed by tons of speculation about her lack of ethics, backbone, too much concern about 2020 politics rather than "what is right", etc., etc., but almost never does someone point out:

1) IMPEACHMENT WILL NOT REMOVE THE MAD ORANGE KING because McConnell is equally corrupt and will not allow a vote. Even if he did, we do not have 67 votes. There are several possible consequences of voting to impeach but no conviction and removal, and none of them look as good to me as the likely consequences of building the case with the public, who will in turn potentially pressure the Senate, to vote to convict.

2) Reports indicate that many in the Dem caucus in the House are NOT yet on board with impeachment inquiries or more. If constituents are concerned about that, they should contact their representatives.

3) It is not at all clear (to this non-lawyer) that impeachment inquiries provide benefits beyond the power the Dem-led committees already have. And Pelosi et al. probably see disadvantages with this AT THIS TIME, but I have not seen them rule out any future action.

Pundits, your speculation needs to include facts and alternative explanations, such as that Pelosi wants to remove and convict Trump, but right now she LACKS THE POWER to do either.

I’m almost at the point where I can’t listen to Stephanie Miller anymore. I had to turn her off today when one of her guests called Nancy Pelosi “feckless.”

I’m with Nancy

Because the way Trump is moving and acting, it (sadly) would not surprise me - that Trump with the full support of the DOJ (under Barr) and no counter-action by the GOP Senate, might declare all Democratic leaders - enemies of the state and lock them up. He is laying the groundwork with his base.

And then, I guess we can lament loss opportunities.

To accomplish your objective.

What Democrats are doing now is holding legislative hearings. Grand jury information will only be released for judicial reasons. An impeachment hearing is a judicial process.

If the only benefit derived from holding an impeachment hearing is getting the grand jury information released to Congress it will be worth it.

What has Congress accomplished now that everyone thinks we should stay the course? How many requested documents have been released? How many subpoenas have been honored. When Jr. testified he set the terms of the subpoena, behind closed doors, limited to 2 hours, limited to 3 topics. When Hope Hicks testifies she is going to have a White counsel there advising her what to answer and how to answer. Unless she slips up her testimony will be pointless.

Period.
An Impeachment hearing doesn't magically change that legal standard.

There would have to be a petition of the court to release the 6E stuff.

It's not true that "grand jury information will only be released for judicial reasons" - and saying it over and over again after you've been repeatedly corrected won't change that.

Not only are there numerous instances in which grand jury material can be released, the processes that the House is currently undertaking have put the House Judiciary Committee - and potentially other committees, as well - in excellent position to obtain the grand jury materials. In fact, the Judiciary Committee now holds the same legal status under the Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure as an impeachment inquiry for the purpose of obtaining the grand jury information.

And complaining about - in your view - Congress not obtaining sufficient testimony and documents through subpoenas doesn't help your argument since the subpoena process under an impeachment inquiry would be no different than it is now, nor would it guarantee any additional testimony or documents than have been turned over to date.

bless you for taking on this difficult work.

If impeachment is done, it must be in service of beating him in 2020.

Is that what you mean?

The hope lies in stopping Trump now.

Pelosi wants to vote him out in 2020.

We cannot depend on that election.

God almighty, he signaled just yesterday that he is willing to subvert the election AGAIN to remain in power. All our Intelligence community is telling us the election is not safe; that many enemies are ready to attack (and likely already have started). Republicans in Congress refuse to consider the laws that would enhance election security.

How does it make sense to wait, when it is possible to stop him cold, starting right now, with the full force of the Constitutional remedy?

How do you propose to do that? By impeaching him? Do you think that will stop him? How?

Do you think we can remove him from office through impeachment? If so, please name the 20 Republican Senators who will vote to convict him.

that would blow his fragile, delicate ego to smithereens . . .

oh, and the Constitution-thingy. The legislative branch has a DUTY to check and balance the power of the executive.

Doing the right thing is just the right thing to do.

It won't stop him. Nothing short of marching him out in handcuffs will stop him.

It's nothing within the realm of possibility.

this particular dialogue is a waste of time.

I do want him impeached...in 2020, say around September. And I want him impeached for at least 5 crimes, not the two we're looking at now:

Conspiracy with the Russians to steal the election
Obstruction of justice
Money laundering
Bank fraud
Insurance fraud

An impeachment inquiry to start now as long as it lasts at least a year. Preferably with the current investigations to continue. Create a blizzard of subpoenas and court orders in the White House in the heat of the campaign. Then we can get rid of this menace.

Impeachment is not a magic wand that will make him act like a human being, and it has no chance of removing him from office. Only the election can do that.

In fact, I think an extended, public impeachment process might help us to get those votes.

investigations in the House and GOTV in 2020.

Right now 79% of Democrats are in favor in Impeachment, even though many realize a Senate impeachment trial will probably not go our way. Whether some like it or not, more and more Democrats are becoming disillusioned and frustrated with our current strategy. I've heard some even say that our Dem leadership is putting party over country!!!

Is it possible that some of these Dem voters could break off to third party candidates in 2020 if we run out the clock on impeachment? I don't know but it's a risk to consider with all others.

It's not going to be a level playing field in the 2020 election. I can't assume otherwise. That's why I don't believe in putting all our eggs in 1 basket.

I don't think there's any way for us to counter this but by doing a similar thing--except, of course, we won't be telling lies.

Heaven forbid we should fire up the base with the truth.

of collusion, conspiracy, or whatever folks want to call it. He even let trump jr, etc., off for the trump tower meeting. Unbelievable.

If Obstruction would take trump down, it already would have because we all saw it right in front of us.

to my elected officials decisions.

traitors like McConnell, Graham etal.

Tribe spoke of this, has a good idea, would have to look for it.


ps

We need to differentiate between real liberals who are angry at inaction for instance as opposed to GOP/KGB plants who ALL OF A SUDDEN want to complain about our team.

If the GOP Senate fails on their duty, it will be a permanent stain on their record to be used against them.

Also impeachment will hurt Trump at the polls in Nov 2020 because a hot white spotlight will shine on his crimes before the public eye.

Too many people simply aren't aware of the depth and scope of his misdeeds.

we all know the Senate would not do anything if Trump killed a puppy on live TV, yet now we are REWARDING them for this blatant ass-kissing?

Nt

just saying.

which was the #1 reason why Hillary lost, want to know reason $2? Millennials didn't vote. Trump won because the vote was suppressed. When people vote in large numbers, Democrats win. Not impeaching Trump will certainly suppress our turnout.

If you think Mueller’s report, which some of us thought a sideshow, took the wind out of hard core democrats sails, imagine a failed impeachment with trump crowing about total vindication, which is what he would do.

Nope. Keep the investigations going. Dribble out stuff like Benghazi did to Hillary, and focus on what won us the house last year.

Honorable people can disagree, but I see no upside to impeachment. It would feel good for a bit. But hurt in the end.

... logic.

Clinton was relatively popular among republicans in late 90s

Try this. “There is no well founded position for impeachment if conviction is not possible”...logic.

See, I can play that game as well.

... prevailing logic against impeachment hasn't been factual.

Impeachment needs to be well timed

Just because we have a majority doesn't mean we have the votes in the House to impeach him. People can put down Nancy Pelosi If they want, but she knows how to count votes.

You think she would gain my trust from party loyalist on DU.

She played a very weak hand into the majority and has had Trump on the defensive since the election.

With the corrupt republicans running the senate there is little she can get done except blocking bad legislation.

And focus on winning it all in 2020.

I remember her saving Boehner's butt when his teabaggers were acting like idiots.

This has nothing to do with impeachment for them. It’s hatred of all things Pelosi and butthurt that she’s large and in charge.

It doesn’t just pervade President politics.

We are damn lucky to have her. The way she kept her caucus together while in the minority was as gifted a performance by as Speaker I have ever seen. Reminds me of the performance of Tip O’Neill and he never had to operate in the minority.

Trump’s crimes and misconduct, confirmed Russian interference, documented campaign collusion, and opened up a host of on-going investigations is misguided at best.
Mueller’s work is the encyclopedic reference cited in all arguments for impeachment, hearings, further investigation.
All experts from legal to intelligence to political use the Mueller investigation as the bedrock for their argument that he and his minions violated the constitution, obstructed justice, lied, and betrayed democratic values.
Professor Vance and McQuade testifying before the Judicial Committee cited chapter and verse
from the Mueller report to ground their prosecutorial (hypothetical, true) finding that Trump could be indicted.
How much better for the American people to cart him offstage for later possible charges than had Mueller submitted a report demanding a drastic course of action the DOJ would not have followed,
thereby calling into question the entire investigation.

trump getting away with everything. He appears to be above the law. I know that impeachment will probably fail but I still want congress to act. And NOW! Stop normalizing this shit!

Especially if that man is someone like Trump.

Impeachment will probably not rid us of The Cretin, we will hopefully be doing that through our votes. But attack this 0gre’s ego. Cause him unlimited grief with a permanent stain on his bloated, twisted narcissistic history.

Fight him legally and historically. But fight with everything possible. It is about fighting spirit as well as rule of law and human decency.

has to defend a corrupt admin in 2020 election. You start with impeaching AG William BArr

let McConnel do nothing with it, makes a great campaign issue about doing the job


btw, has Mitch even announced yet he is running for re-election?

Is there evidence that warrants Trump to be impeached?

If the answer is yes, not impeaching is condoning his criminal behavior and telling him that has free rein to do as he chooses.

Just imagine if Democrats decide to not impeach and Trump is reelected, think about the terrible ramifications of that scenario.

and then jail the whole organized crime family - the whole cabal

That will make me happy

He still has not done anything to stop Russian interference. If he was voted out he would not leave as the Russians hacked the vote against him.

Without these, he wins. Most people in USA are lazy and have no idea of the treachery, corruption, lies & obstruction it contains. These facts can be most easily communicated from the forum of open Impeachment Hearings. Once the people hear all the evidence, the 40% will be whittled down to 33-1/3% (the true traitors, Nazis, KKK, White Separatists, racists, criminals and ignoramuses) and he will be almost certain to lose. We have to win an overwhelming victory or the hacking & vote stealing and suppression will take it, just like last time. Impeachment Hearings is what is needed to drive the narrative - otherwise he Russian/Repugs/SA/Israel wins and the American way of life has had it's death knell.

The MSM and disengaged people will pay attention to Impeachment proceedings and that is our best chance to educate them. Plus, we get Grand Jury material or it's our best shot at getting it and the other subpoenas actually honored.

Of course the Senate, as it now stands, will not vote to convict Trump but we don't have to let it get that far. Just don't give them the chance to by means such as those described by L. Tribe.

All that is political consideration.

The legal and constitutional reason is that, in light of the crimes reveled and degree of stonewalling by this administration, it's our Representatives absolute duty to begin Impeachment hearing. You know; it's the right thing to do no matter the political fallout, which I think will accrue to the rule of law myself.

in the next election.

That's something.

Trump, the Republicans supporting him, the electorate and political climate and dynamics are nothing like either of the previous presidential impeachments, neither one of the prior events is instructive of how this will play out, either way.

People weren't clamoring for impeachment when the Dems filed the charges with Nixon. It took the year or so of the proceedings and the numbers that wanted him impeached continued to grow. Was still a good percentage that would support him, but that never goes away.

They're as filthy as he is. Look how quiet they remain as he commits atrocity after atrocity. And that fucking turtle...

Now and then the ridiculous Susan Collins and Mittens come out to offer complaints. But it's all bullshit.

They ALL need to be taken down.

have voted for impeachment if only Nancy had started the process. Our leaders will stop being questioned/critiqued/challenged (not bashed) when they do their jobs and hold the criminal thug in the WH accountable. Not a moment sooner.

is that it would make Pence the POTUS. And then let him run as incumbent with a very short time in office and the novelty that brings. There would be voters who wouldn't want two changes in President that close together, others that think Pence deserves a chance of a full term, and the usual fascination with a new President that might give him tons of free advertising coverage to the detriment of the Democrat.

There will be a significant number of people who voted for Trump last time but are so disgusted by him they won’t this time - and will be so relieved that Pence isn't Trump that they’ll have no problem voting for him, especially in light of the honeymoon you correctly said he’d enjoy.

...from office is to vote him out. Nevertheless, the House still needs to impeach him.

and it felt counter productive.

The down ticket races all the way down to dog catcher are as important as the White House if we want to fix Trump and his basket of deplorables' mess. We need every office we can take.

as they did for Nixon. Then it will be easier to vote him out of office in 2020.

Why do you frame it as an "either/or" when a "both/and" works better? We can do both!

Because other than the first 20 minutes and the voting at the end, they weren't televised.

You may be thinking of the Senate Watergate hearings the year before, which weren't impeachment hearings. They were investigatory hearings, similar to what the Judiciary Committee and other committees are doing now. The information revealed in those hearings were largely responsible for the drop in Nixon's approval and the rising public support for impeachment.

that will result in a larger drop in Trump's approval ratings. See https://www.justsecurity.org/64318/how-impeachment-proceedings-would-strengthen-congresss-investigatory-powers/ They represent the closest we can get to an approximation of the Senate Watergate Hearings.

You are right that the Senate Watergate hearings did result in Nixon's declining approval ratings, but the fact that the public knew that impeachment hearings were getting started only added to the drop off.

How many times do we have to hear it. I am so sick of hearing that. Can't you come up with any thing new? We know impeachment won't get rid of this ugly creature in the oval office. We have to let the people know what has happened to the country. That's what we really need. Impeachment inquiries will do that. So stop this nonsense.

But now that I'm aware of it and you have spoken your peace, may I assume this is the last time you'll comment on this matter?

for a very good reason--they know more info can be gained from them: https://www.justsecurity.org/64318/how-impeachment-proceedings-would-strengthen-congresss-investigatory-powers/

It doesn't have to be an either/or, it can be a "both/and". It's easier to remove Trump if his approval ratings further fall from the fallout of a properly conducted formalized impeachment hearing.

because Trump has damaged America beyond their wildest DREAMS

WTF!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!

getting why some of yall can't grasp that.

Enough with the binary thinking. One does not preclude the other.

Impeachment carries political risks whether one wants to admit it or not.

And people lambasting Democrats over it hurts us politically.

So people can be holier than thou and demand it and talk shit about Democrats for not doing it is really fucking dumb imho.

So yeah people want it but at what fucking cost?? Another four years of the Trumpass? All for something that won’t remove him?

Fine people want impeachment. I wish they would stop attacking Democrats.

known one way or the other how either impeaching or not impeaching would play out in the 2020 election, so that being the case we should just simply STOP with the fretting and go ahead and do what's right. In this case the right thing is following constitutional process for how high crimes and misdemeanors are supposed to be dealt with. It very well could be that impeachment by the house has the opposite effect of what you imagine, it could be hugely energizing and get people out to vote - including independents who voted last time for Dems to serve as checks as balance to excesses of Repub party.

I don't know who the "people" are who are attacking Democrats. Not me!

and if you aren't doing that good. However, many are!

unless we start the proceedings? You're making a big assumption here, and I realize its a popular one. But its still just an assumption.

The most important aspect of impeachment hearings would be to get the FACTS out in the open about what happened in 2016, and to make sure that this kind of internal/external hostile attack NEVER happens again.

It's understood that impeachment won't remove him from office. But 45 needs to be publicly shamed, and his overt criminality and ignorance of the law MUST be imprinted forever on the American psyche. It will drive him to distraction, and patterns have shown that his poll numbers are weakest when he's blindly and obsessively lashing out.

Democrats have nothing to lose by conducting impeachment hearings. The 2020 election is already set to be a maelstrom of insanity, as **nothing** has been done to impede the hostile foreign involvement that got 45 into office in 2016. The Republicans' only hope is for a replay of 2016, but even uglier, and there's ZERO doubt that they will welcome Putin's meddling, among other unlawful actions.

IMPEACH NOW.

Do share.