General Discussion

garybeck

(9,942 posts) Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:44 AM Jul 2019

Epstein question - why is this not double jeopardy?

I thought that his previous plea deal prevented him from being charged ?

Did something happen to nullify the plea deal?

Or did prosecutors find enough additional charges that they are seen as new/different crimes?

just wondering if there are answers to these questions I haven't seen in the reports.

thanks

34 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Epstein question - why is this not double jeopardy? (Original Post) garybeck Jul 2019 OP

It would have to be additional charges. Lochloosa Jul 2019 #1

This message was self-deleted by its author Qutzupalotl Jul 2019 #2

If they are federal charges it doesn't matter. What does matter is The Velveteen Ocelot Jul 2019 #7

actually federal vs. florida. unblock Jul 2019 #9

the non-prosecution agreement in the florida case was actually a federal agreement fishwax Jul 2019 #26

Every victim and every additional illegal act against that victim not previously charged are NEW hlthe2b Jul 2019 #3

Will Trump pardon a KNOWN PIMP????? ProudMNDemocrat Jul 2019 #4

trump is stained forever anyway rampartc Jul 2019 #8

What say the EVANGELICALS for Trump????? ProudMNDemocrat Jul 2019 #11

The usual "mulligan" PSPS Jul 2019 #15

Its okay if you are lying or supporting immoral acts for Jesus. Thomas Hurt Jul 2019 #16

That is exactly what the mercuryblues Jul 2019 #20

disgusting rampartc Jul 2019 #21

They will love him if he facilitates their ability to execute women for having abortions Eliot Rosewater Jul 2019 #29

Most likely, they'll just deny it ever happened. Mariana Jul 2019 #33

Most likely Timewas Jul 2019 #30

Stain? luvallpeeps Jul 2019 #31

Maybe it's that this time it's sex trafficking. MoonchildCA Jul 2019 #5

FL and NY have multiple state borders between them Recursion Jul 2019 #6

Some of it may be jberryhill Jul 2019 #10

The Agreement Said Specifically "For This Office Only" Me. Jul 2019 #12

Different charges malaise Jul 2019 #13

Per today's Press Conference... brooklynite Jul 2019 #14

That is not partiularly meaningful jberryhill Jul 2019 #17

Double Jeopardy applies to acquittals. brooklynite Jul 2019 #19

That ... doesn't make sense ... I don't think the outcome of the case, guilt or acquittal mr_lebowski Jul 2019 #23

One thing I would add is... jberryhill Jul 2019 #18

he was charged with rape/pedophilia WhiteTara Jul 2019 #22

There's no such crime as pedophilia. He originally plead out to charges of soliciting (having) sex mr_lebowski Jul 2019 #24

I heard this morning that one of the new charges is conspiracy The_jackalope Jul 2019 #25

It is probably new evidence. nycbos Jul 2019 #27

This will be raised in a Motion to Dismiss. We'll see what the pros and cons (no pun intended) are MaryMagdaline Jul 2019 #28

the photos are something different.... Grasswire2 Jul 2019 #32

Jeffrey Epstein can't claim double jeopardy to escape new charges -- here's why Gothmog Jul 2019 #34

Lochloosa

(16,066 posts)

1. It would have to be additional charges.

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:45 AM

Jul 2019

Response to garybeck (Original post)

Qutzupalotl This message was self-deleted by its author.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)

7. If they are federal charges it doesn't matter. What does matter is

Reply to Qutzupalotl (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:52 AM

Jul 2019

that they are different charges.

unblock

(52,253 posts)

9. actually federal vs. florida.

Reply to Qutzupalotl (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:54 AM

Jul 2019

the state of florida had the non-prosecution agreement.

he was just charged by the federal government, out of the sdny office (southern district of new york). this is part of the federal government, which means they ultimately report to the attorney general, barr, and to the president, donnie, who can torpedo the case and/or pardon him.

fishwax

(29,149 posts)

26. the non-prosecution agreement in the florida case was actually a federal agreement

Reply to unblock (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:41 PM

Jul 2019

Alex Acosta, the current Secretary of Labor, was the US Attorney in Florida at the time, and was responsible for the agreement, which has become a source of considerable controversy.

Earlier this year a federal court ruled that the implementation of the agreement violated the Crime Victim's Rights Act, and rescinding the agreement was raised as a possible remedy, but I don't think we know yet whether that has actually happened.

On edit: I think, also, that while the non-prosecution agreement was federal, he actually pleaded guilty to state charges rather than federal charges.

hlthe2b

(102,294 posts)

3. Every victim and every additional illegal act against that victim not previously charged are NEW

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:47 AM

Jul 2019

charges. It is like if you robbed the same bank twice, but were only charged once. You could be charged again for th second offense. New charges, no double jeopardy.

How Do the New Charges Avoid Double Jeopardy?
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/07/all-we-know-about-the-new-case-against-jeffrey-epstein.html

If the reports of what Epstein will be charged with are accurate, there appear to be several ways that federal prosecutors are not running afoul of the U.S. Constitution by targeting Epstein with the same charges on the same facts for a second time. One law-enforcement source familiar with the case emphasized to the New York Post that the new indictment covers additional crimes not addressed in the earlier case, like Epstein bringing several victims across state lines between Florida and New York, as well as crimes he committed after the ones that led to his first arrest.

The Washington Post similarly reported on Sunday that

A person familiar with the matter said prosecutors do not have significant double jeopardy concerns or concerns about Epstein’s previous plea, meaning the charges probably involve new victims or new alleged wrongdoing.

ProudMNDemocrat

(16,786 posts)

4. Will Trump pardon a KNOWN PIMP?????

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:48 AM

Jul 2019

If he tries, this will stain him forever. Democrats will have a heyday of a scandal to use when they use direct language a 7th grader will understand. But then, Trumpers have a hard time understanding the 5th grade.

rampartc

(5,413 posts)

8. trump is stained forever anyway

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:54 AM

Jul 2019

except with his cult who would cheer such a pardon so, no, this is not a problem for trump's reelection.

any democrat involved is ruined, and I will not defend them. if my worging was clumsy I am not defending trump, merely stating the fact that his cult expects him to traffic underage girls.

ProudMNDemocrat

(16,786 posts)

11. What say the EVANGELICALS for Trump?????

Reply to rampartc (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:56 AM

Jul 2019

That will be an interesting defense.

PSPS

(13,603 posts)

15. The usual "mulligan"

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:22 AM

Jul 2019

Thomas Hurt

(13,903 posts)

16. Its okay if you are lying or supporting immoral acts for Jesus.

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:28 AM

Jul 2019

mercuryblues

(14,532 posts)

20. That is exactly what the

Reply to Thomas Hurt (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:43 AM

Jul 2019

"prosperity bible for Jesus" preaches. You were chosen by God to be in power. Therefor whatever you do is God's will. Even if it is rape, theft, and murder. And this is why Evangelicals overlook rape, theft, and murder. Well as long as you are rich and powerful.

That philosophy started at the top and has worked it's way to your neighborhood church, into courthouses and so on. Take a look at the lenient sentences for rape given out by judges, because "he comes from a good family"

rampartc

(5,413 posts)

21. disgusting

Reply to mercuryblues (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:04 PM

Jul 2019

and totally reverse of Christ's teaching. maybe even antichrist.

Eliot Rosewater

(31,112 posts)

29. They will love him if he facilitates their ability to execute women for having abortions

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:51 PM

Jul 2019

Mariana

(14,858 posts)

33. Most likely, they'll just deny it ever happened.

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 02:59 PM

Jul 2019

Fake news, you know.

Anyway, they don't have to worry about it. We can be sure that popular and influential Christian leaders like Franklin Graham and Paula White, as well as their own preachers, will tell them exactly what to think.

Timewas

(2,195 posts)

30. Most likely

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:55 PM

Jul 2019

Because it is "His" pimp...

luvallpeeps

(935 posts)

31. Stain?

Reply to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 01:43 PM

Jul 2019

The emperor has no clothes to stain. I don't think it would bother him in the least, and his cult will hail him.

MoonchildCA

(1,301 posts)

5. Maybe it's that this time it's sex trafficking.

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:49 AM

Jul 2019

Last time it was sex with under-age girls, or something of the sort.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)

6. FL and NY have multiple state borders between them

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:52 AM

Jul 2019

That's a new Federal crime right there.

Whatever he was doing, money was involved. That's wire fraud.

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)

10. Some of it may be

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 10:55 AM

Jul 2019

Certainly, there will be a challenge based on that, if these victims and events overlap with the previous indictment.

One would think that the decision tree on that line of defense has been fully worked through and that the prosecutors already have a baked-in response to that.

Me.

(35,454 posts)

12. The Agreement Said Specifically "For This Office Only"

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:05 AM

Jul 2019

regarding the deal

malaise

(269,057 posts)

13. Different charges

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:06 AM

Jul 2019

These were not covered in that corrupt deal

brooklynite

(94,600 posts)

14. Per today's Press Conference...

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:17 AM

Jul 2019

The non-prosecution agreement is not binding on SDNY.

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)

17. That is not partiularly meaningful

Reply to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:32 AM

Jul 2019

Because the question is not whether the agreement is binding, when we are talking about double jeopardy.

brooklynite

(94,600 posts)

19. Double Jeopardy applies to acquittals.

Reply to jberryhill (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:34 AM

Jul 2019

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)

23. That ... doesn't make sense ... I don't think the outcome of the case, guilt or acquittal

Reply to brooklynite (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:35 PM

Jul 2019

is relevant to double-jeopardy. Otherwise you could be jailed over and over for the same crime.

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)

18. One thing I would add is...

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 11:34 AM

Jul 2019

The current indictment provided a basis for the search of the Manhattan residence.

That search is rumored to have turned up material that will likely lead to further charges unrelated to the same facts and circumstances as the Florida indictment.

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)

22. he was charged with rape/pedophilia

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:12 PM

Jul 2019

this time it's with trafficking and money laundering.

mr_lebowski

(33,643 posts)

24. There's no such crime as pedophilia. He originally plead out to charges of soliciting (having) sex

Reply to WhiteTara (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:38 PM

Jul 2019

with minors for money ... and I would presume statutory rape, but not certain on that one.

The_jackalope

(1,660 posts)

25. I heard this morning that one of the new charges is conspiracy

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:40 PM

Jul 2019

That makes it a whole new day.

nycbos

(6,034 posts)

27. It is probably new evidence.

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:42 PM

Jul 2019

The SDNY must have found new victims that FL didn't uncover so it would be not subjected to the non prosecution agreement. (Best guess)

MaryMagdaline

(6,855 posts)

28. This will be raised in a Motion to Dismiss. We'll see what the pros and cons (no pun intended) are

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 12:50 PM

Jul 2019

Grasswire2

(13,571 posts)

32. the photos are something different....

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2019, 02:08 PM

Jul 2019

...and kiddy porn has high mandatory sentencing.

Gothmog

(145,321 posts)

34. Jeffrey Epstein can't claim double jeopardy to escape new charges -- here's why

Reply to garybeck (Original post)

Tue Jul 9, 2019, 08:32 AM

Jul 2019

Link to tweet

Asked to chime in, former SDNY prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers added, “They would be able to charge because double jeopardy only applies if it’s federal, and federal you can’t charge another federal case. This was a state case, actually.”
“The federal deal was a non-prosecution agreement, it was never charged in the first place,” she elaborated. “We don’t know whether new victims are coming forward, but they did make a call for new victims at the press conference. It will be interesting to see if they get new conduct. Remember, that the non-prosecution agreement in Florida was about was Florida-based conduct. Nhat the new charges are is a conspiracy that encompasses both things that happened in New York and happened in Florida, so substantively, it’s different conduct as well. ”

Reply to this discussion