General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe obligatory, "no evidence that votes were changed"
While true that it would be difficult to prove, every report on Russian ATTACK on the 2016 election going back to the original scant reports seem to always contain this disclaimer...
I think the public can handle the truth...
KPN
(15,650 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... elections systems from the state and local electoral levels to the registration SOFTWARE sitting behind DMZ's
but ...
took, change, installed, read, copied .... NOTHING !!!
Right
No one would write that in a book ... no one ... it'd be too stupid
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)..states that Hillary should have won.
Back when they announced that 21 states were affected: that information didn't go public until Kelly left DHS and became Chief Of Staff,
nine months later.
triron
(22,020 posts)--a mantra.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,434 posts)Are we to pretend that they have scruples? Why would they hold votes to be sacred and untouchable? They're Russians, for Christ's sake! They take orders from a dictator! Putin has no use for democracy. He changes votes all the time in Russia. Jeez! He poisons political opponents! And we're supposed to believe that Putin RESPECTS DEMOCRACY??? We know that our shitty voting machines can be hacked WITHOUT A TRACE, yet we refuse to change the voting tabulation process because machine manufacturers have BIG CONTRACTS with state governments.
If the voting machines can be hacked without a trace, then OF COURSE the government can claim that there is no evidence that votes were changed.
NewJeffCT
(56,829 posts)If they get caught and Clinton wins, it taints her election victory.
If they get caught and Trump wins, they just deny it was them and say it was a 400 pound guy in a New Jersey basement. Trump's victory is tainted, yes, and American democracy overall is tainted.
They don't get caught and they're encouraged to be more brazen next time.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... systems are secure.
dalton99a
(81,570 posts)FBaggins
(26,758 posts)They always include "no votes changed" because people read the word "hacking" and assume that votes COULD be changed... when they can't.
In theory, your statement appears reasonable. If they had an intent to damage the election and they succeeded in hacking an election system... it makes no sense that they would just look around and congratulate themselves and then leave things alone. But that isn't reality.
People have this ridiculous notion of "hacking" from what they see in the movies. Some 15-year-old kid pulls out a Nintendo 3DS that he modified in his parents' basement by soldering a couple of paperclips to it... and the next thing you know he's getting ATMs to spit out cash and taking over NORAD.
But again... that isn't reality. There are three overly-simplified categories of "hacking" to be aware of:
1 - Intrusion attempts. These happen constantly but are almost always defeated by basic (or advanced) systems security. Depending on what you (and/or your provider) use for a firewall, you may even be able to get reports on these attacks (including seeing what country they originated from). Most of the stories you read about Russians "targeting" state/county elections systems are of this nature. IOW - they never got in in the first place.
2 - Successful "hack" that gains the ability to read some/all files on the system. There are only a handful of stories of even this happening... but it's important to note that "read" access to a system or storage location is much easier than gaining the ability to control the system or change anything. Even the big hack stories where millions of customers' data were stolen are of this nature. IOW - it wasn't that the Russians "broke into elections systems" and changed nothing because they chose to do so... it's because they couldn't.
3 - Hacks that gain write/delete access to the system. I have yet to see a single story of this clearly occurring in relation to elections systems, but to be charitable there have been a couple where it might have happened but been kept out of the news. But that still leaves us with the final gap in your assumption:
The all-important difference when it comes to the votes themselves:
4 - Voting machines themselves (or, more common, the counting machines for paper ballots) are not networked and can't be "hacked" without getting physical access to each machine.
Girard442
(6,084 posts)5. An intrusion that takes place through an intentionally placed back door.
The Russians aren't a bunch of college kids playing around for laughs. They have dirty money and muscle in their toolboxes.
FBaggins
(26,758 posts)Nor has there been any evidence of such at all (and it would be almost impossible to hide).
Girard442
(6,084 posts)Just call it fake news from a bunch of tinfoil hatters. After the (s)election and Trump is still in the White House there's no more rule of law anyway. Do you really think Barr's Justice Department would investigate?
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)... electoral systems aren't not standardized nor made to be compliant to any level of security.
A program can be installed from registration software that was hacked into that doesn't log changes etc etc etc ... the ways of hiding would be myriad.
SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)One of their efforts was to suppress the vote by way of social media. Russia had an impact.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)And I'm not the most educated on the topic. I still read about and know a couple of ways that there is no doubt they had an impact.
uponit7771
(90,364 posts)Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Thanks for the graph!
triron
(22,020 posts)triron
(22,020 posts)stopdiggin
(11,361 posts)the cat fight here on DU involves whether actual votes (once cast) were manipulated. We're still waiting for authoritative evidence. (not inference .. evidence) Or at least some of us are.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)I know they've gone out of business in name.
SouthernProgressive
(1,810 posts)Facebook was just hit with a 5 billion dollar fine over their relationship with CA.
https://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-ftc-record-penalty-mark-zuckerberg-2019-5
*Please note my use of the word "think" in the subject line.
triron
(22,020 posts)Ligyron
(7,639 posts)Had purple hair or some shit?
triron
(22,020 posts)Not recently at least. He has testified before the British Parliament.
Ligyron
(7,639 posts)I knew it was some Gov panel nterviewing him, forgot it was a more civilized one, lol.
triron
(22,020 posts)I am pretty ignorant of British politics.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)Hopefully the committees will have that info soon.
bluestarone
(17,030 posts)How the hell do they know? I've heard of NO INVESTIGATION in ANY State about the 2016 election! We really have no idea of HOW they did it, so again how do we know for sure? That's my thoughts! Something better happen BEFORE 2020 or we could be in big trouble, because BARR will STOP all investigations after they supposedly win!
watoos
(7,142 posts)Ask the people who say they have found no evidence that votes were flipped to produce just one voting machine that was pulled out and checked. The owners of the machines won't allow their machines to be inspected, they claim proprietary rights for their software.
bluestarone
(17,030 posts)Something has to be done! Somehow subpoena some of these owners. Democratic states could start the process maybe, and go from there. WE HAVE TO KNOW FOR SURE! Before 2020.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)More power to corporations!
triron
(22,020 posts)Just that the perpetrators got away with it.
Also remember how DU went down so mysteriously on election eve in 2016?
That was no coincidence.
delisen
(6,044 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)We are vulnerable with todays systems. But things are being done, and hopefully more will be done.
Vote MFers, Vote.
triron
(22,020 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)I prefer not to give people another reason to sit home, or worse.
GOTV, we Win!!!
triron
(22,020 posts)Hopefully the votes for democrats will be too overwhelming.
Cetacea
(7,367 posts)I was always a bit suspicious about trump winning those states. They fell within one percentage point and we've recently learned that Manafort shared internal polling with Moscow specifically with those states.
GOTV is essential.
madamesilverspurs
(15,806 posts)You just need something to happen between the ballot box and the scoreboard.
Remember the quote attributed to Stalin: Its not the people who vote that count. Its the people who count the votes.
.
triron
(22,020 posts)Cetacea
(7,367 posts)The problems in decider Ohio were well documented.
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)create distrust in our elections. I for one will not feed into it.
triron
(22,020 posts)Baltimike
(4,146 posts)triron
(22,020 posts)Turbineguy
(37,365 posts)when you've already changed the voters.
Those who voted for trump need to ask themselves if they actually thought he'd do a good job as President or were merely useful idiots.
Of course there are those who were just buying the guy. They don't qualify as useful idiots.
watoos
(7,142 posts)Was headed to testify in court how he programmed machines, had his small plane crash and burn on his way to testify was just a coincidence?
That was when Bush beat Kerry.