General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDeminPennswoods
(15,290 posts)fwiw.
triron
(22,019 posts)DeminPennswoods
(15,290 posts)So far, no facts, other than Epsteins is dead, are known or have been established. Everything is just speculation right now.
MarcA
(2,195 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)and it was Hillary, in the cell, with a noose
Seriously, why is suicide not the major leading theory for a 66 year old man facing the rest of his life in prison as a pervert child molester? Unless he was involved in faking the moon landing?
Trueblue Texan
(2,440 posts)He was the MOST dangerous inmate/witness in all the world. Why would he not be the most monitored inmate? THAT is what is so suspicious.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Chemisse
(30,816 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)His situation was desperate. He tried to kill himself about two weeks ago. Yet reports say that he was back in general population and off suicide watch. None of that sound suspicious to you? If not suspicious, then there was a mind-boggling amount of incompetence by officials that were charged with insuring that Epstein stood trial.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)William Seger
(10,779 posts)If there's no evidence to support it, and in fact evidence that refutes it, it will be upgraded to a conspiracy theory.
warmfeet
(3,321 posts)is conjecture, speculation and, perhaps, hypothesis.
Nothing yet points in any particular direction.
Going forward, I hope this gets covered like stink on shit. It smells bad, and I intend to follow the odor, as do many others on this website.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,377 posts)is taken off suicide watch then kills himself.
I think the suicide is real. But so is the incompetence. And thats by far the kindest word for it.
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)First off, I don't discount him, but...
If you say "we need a reliable autopsy", and the autopsy doesn't come back the way you hope, then... it's not a "legit autopsy". How does this ever end?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)They can never be disproven since any evidence that debunks the conspiracy is simply additional proof of the conspiracy.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)What gets me is that the he was murdered camp is not going to get into an argument with the hes not really dead camp.
Its like the two guys in the asylum who think theyre Napoleon. They dont argue with each other.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)I suspect the answer is that he paid somebody to let him die, because he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison. But at the very least it's a scandal that such a high profile at-risk inmate wasn't protected.
cab67
(3,002 posts)From what ive read, suicide watch is so restrictive that inmates will work hard to get out of it, not to commit suicide but because its so unpleasant. Its not easy to determine motivations.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)cab67
(3,002 posts)He was sharing a cell with a cop suspected of murder.
But even if it was a suicide attempt (and I tend to think it was), he was on suicide watch for a couple of weeks. That's plenty of time for someone to convince even a trained psychologist or psychiatrist that he or she is no longer a danger to him or herself.
(Being married to a clinical psychologist is giving me perspectives I'm not sure I want.)
LiberalArkie
(15,728 posts)3Hotdogs
(12,402 posts)Think Whitey Bulger.
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)and condescendingly accused many of promoting conspiracy theory, might take note. Whether they have personal legal experience or not does not make them experts on the procedures and functionings of MCC, the Federal facility where Epstein was held nor give them unique insight-- beyond what is being reported-- as to what happened.
In defense of the rest of DU, there is nothing wrong with discussing what the likes of Joyce Vance, Paul Butler, Glenn Kirshner, Preet Bharara, Harry Litman and former FBI Assistant Director, Frank Figliuzzi have said and posted themselves.
Such as:
Link to tweet
Kingofalldems
(38,469 posts)It doesn't have a shred and everything should be questioned.
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)no real detail account of what happened has been released, I think the very vocal and very condescending armchair "self-proclaimed experts" should hit pause for the indefinite future.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Dont get your knickers in such a bunch.
This is a DISCUSSION board.
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)Referring to the poster's comment quoted verbatim: "Dont get your knickers in such a bunch".
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Myself and some others find the various theories amusing.
Why should that bother you? I dont get that.
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)I hate seeing people with their feelings hurt here. On the internet. On a discussion board.
DeminPennswoods
(15,290 posts)are familiar with federal lock ups.
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)In your "logic", EVERYTHING is speculative--including whether or not the sun comes up tomorrow. There would be no need for death investigations, coroner reviews, evidence collection & documentation because apparently in your mind, all deaths are natural and none are "suspicious". To suggest otherwise, given your comments/logic, would be to promote conspiracy theory.
It strains credulity to not even QUESTION what happened. Most of us learned to question the tooth fairy and Santa Claus long ago. The Trump administration is no more believable.
But, I surely note a lot of bots on twitter trying to convince all of us otherwise. hmmm.
DeminPennswoods
(15,290 posts)except that Epstein is dead. Right now, everything is just speculation and guesswork.
hlthe2b
(102,343 posts)However, given even Barr/DOJ is calling for an investigation into what happened, that clearly demolishes your point. The facts are not yet known. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous and foolish.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)I think people are taking exception to the fact that so many have immediately convinced themselves that Epstein was offed by whichever dark cabal they believe runs the world (Clintons/Deep State/Trump/Jooz/Satanic Rothschilds/what have you) and will never be convinced by any evidence showing that he suicided, assuming that is the case.
I myself am inclined to believe that he did himself in free of any outside conspiratorial assistance, but if evidence emerges saying otherwise Ill happily change my mind. I dont think the same can be said of the other side of this disagreement.
Trueblue Texan
(2,440 posts)...of ALL PEOPLE should have been the most-watched prisoner in history. I have no trouble believing they left him to his own devices with all the equipment he needed to get rid of himself, a witness that was most inconvenient for some powerful people. Whatever the method, he's dead now, a situation that no doubt many are grateful for today. I hope and pray there is enough evidence left that it doesn't matter that he is dead. I've been worried since they arrested him that he'd be dead before a trial could happen. How many others had the same concern?
Ilsa
(61,697 posts)Shaddox
(384 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Every person who's decided this hanging is anything from planned negligence, to Trump murder, to the Clinton's whisking him off to Mars, has just as much information as Abramson, and has arrived at the same place -- conviction and nothing else.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)triron
(22,019 posts)50 Shades Of Blue
(10,036 posts)And they are already dishonest, thieving, murderer-loving scum. They don't get any benefit of the doubt from me.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)triron
(22,019 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Pathwalker
(6,598 posts)Raine1967
(11,589 posts)believing a conspiracy theory. Kirshner and Abramson are right to question what happened today. That doesn't make them Conspiracy theorists.
I generally believe a lot of good people don't see the difference.
I am suspicious about the events surrounding his death.
I am curious if there was a conspiracy that allowed him to commit suicide.
When we get to a point where we question the people asking the questions about such a big story and accuse them of being conspiracy theorists, we are in deep trouble.
OxQQme
(2,550 posts)Asphyxiation by ingested drugs.
Classic.
First 'medic',
back to the camera,
blocking the view,
stuffs a sock down his throat.
Speculation run amuck.
pecosbob
(7,542 posts)but IMO this is about a clear a situation that one could find where everything and everyone involved should be investigated. This is like Putin taking Navalny into custody and him dying by falling from a window that afternoon. Justice is inherently involved or at fault...they had custody of the highest profile prisoner on the planet and they f*cked up, or they let it happen, or they made it happen. One of those three things is true. Time for an independent counsel. No conspiracies, no BS, no clown cars...an actual investigation.
GeorgeGist
(25,322 posts)William Barr maybe the consigliere for the US division of the Russian Mafia.
rickford66
(5,528 posts)Who benefits from his death ?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)rickford66
(5,528 posts)Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.
It's obvious he had the opportunity and took it.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)rickford66
(5,528 posts)RandiFan1290
(6,239 posts)the same group shows up and tries to distract us by throwing mud in our face. Please ignore them.
Please ignore them
uponit7771
(90,359 posts)MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)I realize Abramson lives and dies by the number of retweets he gets, but this over the top rhetoric lacks credibility.
colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)His sick life took an extreme turn for the worse so suicide wouldnt be a shock. On the other hand Barr is all about protecting Orange Doofus and Silencing this Creep sure helps his insane boss.
I sure wouldnt rule out this being murder.