We urgently need steady, predictable and fair immigration policies, and we need them NOW.

That the primary cause of obesity is not necessarily overeating, though it can be.

There is much evidence that the types of foods and sugars we are consuming play a big part in metabolism, feeling hungry, blood sugar levels, etc. The types of foods that people in poverty can afford and choose plays a role and food deserts are also contributing to that. Once habits are formed, they also tend to stick.

So, while we can assume that cheap food leads to excess consumption, there may be more to it than that. Processing and corporate influences, along with questions about the origins and validity of the "food pyramid", etc., have also been indicated. Nutrition is complex, varies for different people and has been neglected up until recently as a factor in obesity and even more importantly, chronic diseases.

For instance there are five Blue Zones that are being studied for their low incidence of these common problems and the types of food and communities they have are proving to be a significant factor.

Now we have the Big Gulp and liters of bottled sugar water.

Quick calories when you don’t have access to decent food. Glad I swore off soft drinks many years ago.

Yes absolutely, what we eat is as important a factor as how much we eat. A few examples I can think of off the cuff: soy is found in everything processed now, and it is a powerful goitrogen which blocks thyroid activity, slows down the metabolism and causes weight gain. The same is true for MSG, a flavor enhancer (which hyperstimulates the brain to think food tastes better than it does) which is also added in abundance to processed food. Add artificial sweeteners found in diet sodas to that list too as they have the same effect. Most American adults and children eat all of these on a daily basis!

Sugar is another pervasive additive, which has proven to be addictive. It's in everything processed too.

As Michael Pollan says, if your grandmother wouldn't recognize it, don't eat it.

You know your stuff! We could go on, I bet, too. This is vital information for good health and longevity and it is not about some fancy, faddish view on food at all. It reflects many changes introduced into our diets and is supported by the statistical increases in chronic illnesses. The point being, they are not a natural part of aging as some people presume.

You may die of a stroke or a heart attack, etc., due to extreme old age--the body just gives out due to various, complex factors--but to live for many years prior to that on what is a progressively deteriorating path of medications, stents, bypasses and even transplants is not natural. This is what some doctors are relating, not my opinion. Some doctors noticed this downward spiral and decided to study it more with a goal of healing rather than mere treatment of symptoms.

Too bad this is not just common knowledge. Perhaps, as medical doctors become more involved, (and some are due to compassion for their patients) this might become more well known. They are talking about evidence--when patients are put on a strict diet designed to accomplish it and they adhere to it-- complete reversals of many chronic diseases from cardio-vascular to diabetes. If the patients don't stick to it, the results reverse.

Thanks!

"when patients are put on a strict diet designed to accomplish it and they adhere to it-- complete reversals of many chronic diseases from cardio-vascular to diabetes"

I've seen documentaries about just that. They're amazing! People really get better by changing what they eat. Some people can't adhere to the diets though because it takes breaking long standing habits. And if the person has a family, the entire family has to participate otherwise it's just too hard.

My mother who is 82 says she doesn't remember older people having Alzheimer's when she was a kid ... she grew up in a place where food was locally grown and clean with no chemistry in anything grown or prepared.

The thing that bothers me is why do we have to be a nutritionists just to get decent, clean, safe food? I've read there are thousands of chemicals in the food chain that have never been tested by the FDA for safety! Scary!

That fits with what I have discovered. Thanks for the anecdote about your Mom.

Yes, one barrier is habits. Even if you have better health, well, craving that nice, juicy ______ may get you to think quality vs. quantity. What is interesting is, after they recover on those diets, if people backslide, the symptoms and effects gradually return. It is a tough one, but it depends on what people want and health AND longevity are good.

Oh, and there are also studies that relied on autopsies of the bodies of young people. People in their twenties often showed early signs of arteriosclerosis, etc. It was already getting a start at that age.

In response to the question about the chemicals, we are swimming in a sea of them, so to speak, so it is not just food. Scientists are now trying to actually build a science around our exposure, actually. It is complex when you think of all the physiological factors of the body and its interaction with thousands of chemicals, (many new to us) and the effect on health.

That, however, is another good incentive to pay more attention to what we eat and our nutrition. The immune system depends on a healthy, strong system and it is very important in this case.

Food for thought, huh?

With only one exception, either no effects or only very modest changes were noted in these trials. Thus, collectively the findings provide little evidence that in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function.

Soy is an important protein source, in Asia especially.

On an anecdotal level — I consume a fair amount of soy personally (as I have for years), and I have excellent heart health and no thyroid problems.

I can't go near soy. If I eat a dinner sized portion I'm catatonic the next day. And I really like tofu ...

And 60% are undiagnosed.

https://www.thyroid.org/media-main/press-room/

I've seen all sorts of conflicting studies but one thing is for sure, and that's that soy is high in isoflavones which act like estrogen and block thyroid production and thyroid receptors as a result. So like anything else in nutrition really, too much is not a good idea.

Back when soy was thought of as a "super food", vegetarians were eating it constantly as cheese substitutes, meat substitutes, milks ... and ran into thyroid problems as a result. People caught on and that fad passed. However, soy is everywhere in processed food these days. Even tuna! Some manufacturers of processed food will list it using other names, so the consumer isn't aware it's there.

But soy particulars aside, the point I was trying to make above is that soy, MSG, Nitrates, aspartame, and other chemicals combined together are saboatging people's health.

The estrogen fear is bogus and has been debunked several times. Even if it weren't, I would hardly put soy in the same category as "nitrates, aspartame and other chemicals..."

Eaten as a whole food (edamame), it's perfectly healthy and good for us.

Soya is not a chemical. It is a legume. What I said is when it comes to the American diet, regular exposure to soy (hidden in hamburger meat, tuna, soups, etc.) -- in addition to other other metabolic disruptors and chemicals -- is contributing to the obesity epidemic.

The estrogenic effects of soy are not bogus. Here is just one source: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soybean-fertility-hormone-isoflavones-genistein/

"Many of soy’s health benefits have been linked to isoflavones—plant compounds that mimic estrogen. But animal studies suggest that eating large amounts of those estrogenic compounds might reduce fertility in women, trigger premature puberty and disrupt development of fetuses and children."

PubMed is full of recent research which supports the article above.

I avoid it like the plague.

The first sign is my mouth itches ... after that the other effects last for about 24 hours ... my fingers swell and ache and my muscles ache ...

I guess I am lucky, because of those reactions, I have not willingly consume it in any quantity for more than 30 years

High fructose corn syrup is another thing I avoid ... if you read how it is made, you will realize how unhealthy it is.

Normally I don't even think about MSG, until suddenly it feels like fingers are pressing against my temples and the sides of my head. That's how I know that the thing I just ate had MSG in it. It's not painful, just a weird feeling. Normally only happens with Chinese food, and I don't eat it that often. The trick is to remember to tell them "No MSG," and then I don't have to worry.

MSG makes me feel awful too. I get some sort of inflammatory reaction and swelling ... my face hands, feet. My thinking slows way down and I get really spacey. It's so awful. I get stealth MSG'd every now and then! I wonder if there's an antidote?

I read about corn syrup a long time ago but don't remember the specifics any more. But I stay away from it though.

It's the combination of sugar and grains that cause obesity. If you stick with non-processed proteins and fresh vegetables, you will be healthier and feel great. Chicken (dark meat) and pork and sometimes fish (if it's on sale) are relatively inexpensive. Fresh vegetables are too. Broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, kale and spinach are the best. Red peppers and tomatoes are great too.

I bake my own cookies, they are pretty good. But most of my annual cookie consumption is commercial cookies because they also taste good and leave me wanting to eat more of them. My homemade cookies have traditional cookie ingredients, the commercial stuff has added items that tickle a person's sense of being full.

With the exceptions of chocolates and hard candy mints. Still haven't figured those out yet. Marshmallows will be next as well, so I can save money by not purchasing Smashmallows--even though they are delicious.

I removed bread/wheat flour, pasta, sugar, and starchy vegetables from my diet and am essentially eating Keto. I lost 35 pounds without trying harder than that and feel better than I ever have.

It is slightly more expensive to avoid the processed boxed and pre-prepared foods loaded with unnecessary carbohydrates, but I no longer eat as much - usually two good meals a day, and while I don't crave bread, I miss the simplicity of throwing something together as a sandwich. Luckily I've learned how to prepare meals of meat and vegetables super-quick.

And regardless of size, a great majority of farmers are or lean Republican. I saw one poll which I posted a link to in another post here in this tread where it was said that 70% of respondents identified themselves as Republican or lean Republican.

Feeling sorry for farmers is like feeling sorry for Nazi collaborators or privileged white males.

Even though about 20% of NRA members are Democrats?

"We Americans support the ideas and principles set forth in the Bill of Rights" is not an accurate statement as some Americans do not but it's generally acceptable to say so.

Well that was just a warm up to what is taking place now. Massive Agricultural corporations once again buying up family farms for pennies on the dollar until they own all farming.

I wouldn't call them what you did, but as James Carville said on national TV the night of the election: "People are going to realize that their voting has consequences........."

So, they lose their multi-generational family farm when they go bankrupt thanks to Trump. They will try to get food stamps, and Trump is getting rid of that. They will try to get un-employment, but having worked for themselves, they will not get that help. Etc etc etc
I am sad to say that come November 2020 that most of them will vote for Trump or Republicans because they have been "told" that it is the Dem's fault.....................

Ignorance Should Be Painful...........I guess it is gonna come true for a lot of Republican Voters out there.........

that the person is thinking of a farm run by people in suits who have no history with the farm. The truth is, a majority of these "corporate farms" are run by families and has been in the family for generations.

IMO, it'd be more accurate to say that the large family farms are running the small family farms out of business. Or that small family farms have a very hard time competing against the large family farms. Just as a mom and pop store struggles to compete with
Walmart which is controlled by the Walton family.

That doesn't make it a small business.

Corporate farms.

A good farmer is by definition a good business person which means incorporating if for no other reason to keep from paying inheritance taxes every time an owner dies.

My wife’s uncle farms thousands of acres in Indiana, much of it leased. They are a serious corporation. And seriously family owned.

The days of ma, pa and 4 kids feeding the chickens, milking the cows, raising 40 acres of corn and some pigs has been gone for 60 years. It means living in poverty and always has. You can still find farms like that. And one member of the household works a real job with benefits and steady pay.

I believe I remember you saying that you were tangentially attached to agriculture. And farmer that is going to have any meaningful distribution of his or her produce is likely to be massive, a person just has to be capable of looking past the romantic bull that some people cling to.

I am reminded of something I recently saw. I started to like a certain bread that I found in my local healthfood store. Then one day I was in Publix and saw the bread there, no biggie I thought, just a small baker with growing distribution. Then one day my next youngest brother asked me to ride shotgun for company while he drove to a churchmenber's house. Now riding shotgun allows one to see a lot of stuff not normally seen. Sure enough, when my brother was stopped at a red light, by passed a truck that had my favorite bread prominently shown. The truck was owned by possibly the largest baking company in the USA. The bread is still darn good though.

Only much harder work.

Historically small farmers have had only one goal. To stop farming. My grandfather was the last generation of the mythical Southern Yeoman Farmer so praised. Raised everything they ate but coffee, sugar and beer. Sold cotton. Why the last? Because the minute he was able to get a job with the paper mill he jumped at it. Said it was the best day of his life. This was in 1949. Retired with a pension and Social Security. Still kept beautiful cattle which my uncle continues to raise. But he is also now retired from the paper company. College educated and too smart to try small farming for a living.

Farming a business. Like any other. The reason we have fewer big farms is the same reason we no longer have 9 automobile manufacturers.

Economy of scale.

Every time I read these post on DU romanticizing small farms I always think a few things:

There is almost no chance that person has spent a day putting in fence posts and stretching barbed wire. Or breaking loose the nuts on a disc to replace a worn blade. Or welding up a broken hay rake when it is 95 degrees out then hooking it up to the tractor and raking hay till dark hoping the dew is not to heavy and you don’t get a rain. I’ve done all except the welding part. Never took to it!

Have a nice evening.

Companies or farmers that have large economy of scale crush those that don't. It simply boils down to economics.

those who eat those animals also gain weight?

getting the bulk of tariff relief and in many/most cases are getting none while their export prospects have been decimated. Yesterday's thread responses were really disturbing.

One poster responded dismissively to my concerns that suicide rates among small farmers (which have always been statistically high--it is a challenging life) are on the increase and may well reach record levels.

Small farmers, even if they voted for Trump, are not our enemy. They voted against their own interests but I don't think they deserve the punishment they are getting.

Somehow, we have to break through the cult of disinformation.

One wonders how many individual stories there are out there that describe the actual, negative impact that these policies are having?

Most often, mainstream covers general topics or ones that relate to more prominent characters and situations. Oh, sure, there is the occasional, human interest story, but what you related is very important.

I have a friend who is a small-time, independent contractor. He does painting and remodeling. This year, he has hardly any work. Now, that could be for many reasons, but when he contacted some of the homeowners that he had worked for in the past, (to try to drum up some business) and asked if they were going to need any work or painting done, three of them said they would like to, (this was around tax return time) but they usually relied on their tax returns to finance things like that. You know, fixing up, painting, etc.

So, that's anecdotal, too, but it does illustrate an effect.

my house. Twice it was a woman, and once a man. I didn't pay attention to the phone number, and I was very polite. I told them thanks (kindly), but let them know I had a husband and a son, who handles that department around our house. For the record, my house is not falling apart and is well maintained so these are just random cold calls from people who need work. I thought about it after I had hung up after the 3rd call and told myself that if they called back again, I'd take their number and keep it handy in case any of my neighbors need some work done. No sense kicking someone when they are down; particularly when they are looking for work, not a handout.

It's no wonder so many Americans are so unhealthy and overweight. If there was only some economical way to get the produce from these struggling farms to the many "food deserts" https://spoonuniversity.com/lifestyle/food-desert-obesity-rates in this country, we could solve a number of problems at once.

My family just historically eats unhealthy food as do so many people in the rural and suburban south, despite income level.

The like fried meat at every meal, lots of potato either fried or baked with butter and cheese and vegetables that are half pork products. And tons of white bread.

Go to any church supper or funeral luncheon, white or African American, and you often find 3 tables laden with food with not one thing I would now consider healthy. Delicious? Bet your ass.

These people are often college educated and can afford healthier food that is available. And they have all the resources needed to make better food decisions. But they do not choose to eat healthy. There are lots of cultural reasons for this. Too many for this post.

And another myth is that healthy food is expensive. The vegetables we eat in the south are cheap fresh or frozen. Collards, turnips, okra, cabbage, squash, sweet potatoes, green beans. All are cheap and very available. All are eaten. As a side dish to huge helpings of meat and starch and then even the vegetables are liberally doused with pork products.

That’s the way I grew up eating and we were not poor.

Not every thing that harms Americans are inflicted on us by evil corporations or governments. Lots of times we just choose poorly.

we do have the problem of food deserts in inner cities and some rural areas. People aren’t going to drive twenty miles to purchase healthy food. They’ll buy what’s available to them.

Here in Orlando several years ago a well meaning man opened a store in the poorest area of the city selling healthy food. Like I said, the vegetables historically we eat in the south are not expensive. We did not grow up on imported asparagus and fresh English Peas.

Anyway he offered good food at a good price. Lasted 2 years and went under.

I can and do easily make a healthy meal for the price of fast food. Beans and rice which I grew up on in Louisiana. Grilled pork with collards and rice. BLT on whole wheat, egg salad. The list goes on and on. We can afford expensive meals, but I get a real challenge trying to make good, healthy food at the lowest cost possible. But we are a pretty high 2 income household only working 8-9 hours a day.

You think the urban poor have time to cook? After working 12 hours a day as a single parent no one is going to come home and spend over an hour cooking.

The diet problem in this country among the poor is not the availability of healthy food. But the availability of economic justice.

it probably went under because people in the area had grown accustomed to eating a certain terrible diet. Old habits die hard. But food deserts DO exist and are a problem. I agree that economic justice would go a long way in changing how people eat and cook.

Of course there’s always going to be people like me. I love food that’s terrible for me. Fatty meats, butter, cheese, pastries, etc. Yeah it’s gonna kill me but I knowingly choose the food over an extended lifespan.

You grew up better off, I grew up poor (I thought that Pizza Hut and Burger King was fine dining as a child, that is how poor we were). But both of us saw people eating food with lots of added fat and salt. Smoked pork makes any food taste better, but adding it to food extracts a price. Stuff was drenched with butter, I learned how to eat broccoli only because it was coated with warm butter sauce (I am sure that you saw that plenty at the fancy brunches you went to as a kid ). Regardless of income, southerners have tended to eat fat and salt laden foods, that has only recently started to change, but even as things change, I see a lot more overweight or morbidly overweight people than I see fit ones. One only need to look around, a chicken chain that sells less healthy food does at least three times the business of one that sells healthier fare. Both chains sell delicious food, so taste is no reason for the disparity.
My family is better off now financially, but the poor eating habits and tendency to be overweight persists, so much so that I am an outlier with my high fitness and low salt, low fat diet.

At our Southern Baptist Church! But of lord! The ladies always tried to outdo each other on the fried chicken. To this day the best I have ever had.

Granted we were not poor.

And being from Louisiana I did have a food advantage over other southerners. We actually did eat steamed broccoli at home in the 70’s. Sans cheese. Frozen of course.

My diet changed due to my job. Which of course I can’t talk about. But at around 30 years of age I was sent to Italy for 8 weeks on a project. Changed my diet and eventually my politics. The way they the ate was almost physically shocking to me. Especially the home cooked meals when our vendors took us to eat with their mothers. I was still young and could really put away the grub and those ladies loved seeing someone eat their food like that!

Where I was raised only rich people traveled overseas unless Uncle Sam sent you. But I realized I can do this to so started making saving for overseas travel just under retirement savings in importance.


It late. You have a great evening.

awareness about it over the past few decades? I am not a health food freak by any means, but I don't eat fried, greasy food (maybe once in a blue moon) or fast food. What are the cultural reasons you refer to?

I grew up in a typical northeastern family where we had meat, starch (potatoes, rice or pasta) and a number of vegetables from our garden at meals. But my diet is a quite a bit less meat heavy these days. I'm a pretty good cook so I can make delicious, hearty vegetarian meals and you wouldn't even know that meat was missing. (I am not a vegetarian, but do like veggie heavy meals.)

I grew up liking vegetables because they were so good being garden-grown. I think some people don't know how good they can be if they aren't straight from the garden or organic. I sometimes wish I could cook for people who don't think that healthy food can taste good.

If you are from the northeast you would be shocked at how we southerners can turn even healthy vegetables into cholesterol bombs! A pot of green beans with an entire ham hock included. History of a type of poverty not really known in the north. This is part of the cultural reason. The north, especially the northeast has not been close to food scarcity since the early 1800’s and imports from newly opened up western Pennsylvania kept anyone from starving.

But in the south from after the civil war until the 40s white share croppers in the south were routinely malnourished. And of course African Americans in the south always lived on the edge. The only thing that kept them alive was pork fat, dairy products and potato’s. And grits. So high fat food became Synonymous with good food. Even vegetables that were not half fat were not considered luxurious. This was ok when food really was scarce and people were doing backbreaking labor all day. But in a very short period after WWII few people were doing that kind of work. But the diet did not change.

They all know the facts. Are have heard them. Their doctor tell them the truth. But they are now clinging to that diet for the same reason the love the confederate flag.

I’ve heard family members comment that they are not giving up the food they have always eaten because some outside tells them to. Not those words exactly. But the meaning is the same.

I’ll be going there is a few months. They will ask me about my overseas trips. Then tell me how fucked up those countries are. Of course, the have never much left their home state.

I deer hunt every year there and do the cooking. I once cooked a venison blackstrap whole over coals till just medium rare. Sliced it on the bias and served it in a reduced sauce of venison stock and wine. We are talking a $50 meal at a moderate restaurant. And I did it right. To me a magical meal of freshly killed all natural, low fat meat cooked simply to best respect the animal I killed to make it. They all asked why I did not pound it, flour it and fry it in lard with gravy.

You can lead s horse to water...

She describes many of her patients dying of biscuit poisoning.

a habit ceases to be a choice and instead makes the choices. Yes, this can be overcome. But you have to want to overcome it first. Aster that, you can consider on how.

As you say, people's families and entire cultures have dictated food choices for a long time.

Exposure to other cultures did it for me. But my relatives in the rural south seldom get that exposure. Most can afford to travel, even overseas. But vacation means a week hunting, fishing or going to the gulf coast beaches.

The few that have traveled are changed as do their diets.

who owns a huge dairy farm in New York - over 1000 cows that need to be milked twice a day, plus all of the other stuff that goes with running the place.
He has a full crew of Mexicans working for him.
I asked what he was gonna' do when IQ45 builds his "wall."

He said, "I'm hoping they're on this side of it when it goes up!"

Why can't he use regular American labor at minimum wage with benefits? Why do we pay so little for our food that to make ends meet, farmers have to use the cheapest labor, using the most underpaid people who rarely receive benefits of any kind? Why do we subsidize chemical laden GMO grains (corn, wheat and soy) in the US but not vegetables, fruits or most meats?

Corporations, factory farms and foreign imports took away the markets the small farmer use to sell to. No longer do you routinely find local produce on school and hospital menus. No longer can you buy local vegtables, eggs and meat at the local grocery store. Huge subcontractors and foreign distributors have taken away these markets. It's globalization where only the small guy gets crushed.

Subsidies to farms use to go to support local small family farms in order to ensure a stable food supply. But today the USDA and Ag Dept. hand out subsidies to the rich. Wealthy investors, large corporations and farm estate heirs use the tax dollars to maximize their personal returns. Small commodities farmers qualify for a mere pittance and producers of most meats, fruits and vegetables aren't even in the game.

and he can't get others in his area to work.

NOT a simple issue. He pays good wages to those that work for him - and he has a tough time getting enough workers.

But really, if he is having trouble finding workers it is because he is Not paying enough...there is no getting around that. That's how labor markets work in a capitalist economy.

But it's not his fault. He can not pay sky high wages and expect to make ends meet, especially as a dairy farmer.

I wish him all the luck. He is in a tough business.

With what he gets paid for his product (milk) - he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Indeed, "insane food production policies!"

The USDA was put in place to insure stable prices because farming always meant poverty. And industrializing farming insured a steady supply of affordable food to the nation. And eventually after WWII the world.

The mythical small farm meant a life of slogging labor and poverty. My family lived it. Once options became available the kids fled en masse. The saying and song ‘how you gonna keep them on the farm once they seen Paris’ was deadly serious and understood by all at the time.

Almost all ‘corporate’ farms actually are family farms. Because once modern farm equipment became available it was inefficient to use it on small farms. We have combines that can harvest hundreds of acres a day. Plows, discs, and spray rigs as well.

My wife’s uncle has tractors and combined that drive themselves using GPS to minimize fuel use and maximize production. The driver is mainly there to get them to and from the field. If you spend $400,000 for a rig you have to farm on a huge scale. And that is why our food is so cheap. He farms thousands of acres. It’s a very family affair. And totally a corporate farm. They incorporate years ago for the same reason all businesses incorporate. Tax benefits and asset protection. Lose the farm but keep your house. Just like your small town hardware store owner.

Same with vegetable production and so on. You are forced to grow at scale.

All that said, production will follow markets. Here in Florida we now have a demand for local raised produce and meat. And more and more is becoming available. But it will never be less costly than farming at large scale. It’s no different than an assembly line auto being much more affordable than a hand assembled one.

But we will never feed a nation of 300 million with small hobby farmers raising heritage hogs and heirloom vegetables.

Very largest producers of corn, wheat, cotton, rice and soy. Everyone else gets mere pittance of those $100s of millions (unless Traitor Trump has taken the funding for his border wall)

Right there they are manipulating the market in favor of the very largest of the largest farms.

Man can not live on grains alone. That is what is making the obesity crisis. Grains are so cheap they are in everything. And they are not the healthy fiber and mineral rich grains of years ago.

They are GMO seeds sprayed over and over again with Round Up, pesticides, fungicides, chemical fertilizers and diminishing aquafer water. These chemicals are killing our waterways and oceans.

We have to rely on these vast farms because these farms are killing off other possible foods supplies like fish and eating up the available resources and markets. They are self perpetuating monster sized farms that can produce tons of carbohydrates. But they are making us ill and killing our planet.

When during WWII England could not obtain imports, they turned to their small farmers to provide the food they needed. It wasn't huge corporate farms that saved them. Giant farms growing with chemicals have their place but Not to the exclusion of all other types of farms. But that is what is happening. We need diversity to ensure the next potatoe virus won't wipe out all our food supply but huge grain farms are smothering out other food chains.

Mankind cannot survive on carbohydrates alone.

They almost starved in WWII and would have without the US. And they quickly turned to larger farms after the war because the idea of starvation sucks. They still are not close to self sufficient.

And you are just throwing out every cliche that might stick. GMO and round-up ready crops came about way after the basics of our food production support systems was placed into law. When I was studying Agriculture in the early 80’s the Agriculture policy of this country was really no different than today and no one even dreamed of round up resistance being possible.

Grains have been the basis of the human diet since agriculture was invented. No great civilization was able to develop without them. Learning to cultivate grain was the reason we could move from hunter gatherers. We are not going to feed 7 billion people on vegetables and tuber crops.

We rely on vast farms, as do all developed countries, because we need to efficiently raise food.

And wheat, rye, barley are no different than what we ate 200 years ago. There are no GMO wheat, barley, rye or oats in production today. We breed them as we have for 4000 years. Breed the best with the best. The way our distant ancestors did when they started domesticating wild grasses for food.

Do you farm? Have you ever? Do you know any people who make 100% of their income off farming? I do. I studied Agriculture. Farming is a business just like building cars. And our main reason to support them is to insure food for our increasing population.

Are there policies we should adopt to make farming more environmentally friendly. Of course. Europe does a better job there even though the also have massive farms. Are there ways to support more growing of produce in a local fashion. Yep. France does it and so should we. And lots of other things.

But the idea we should go back to a bunch of small farmers inefficiently raising crops is, well, a fantasy. Nor should we.

My wife’s uncle farms thousands of acres of ground. Family owned, incorporated farm as all have been for 40 years.

GMOs weren't even on the market in the 1980s.

It wasn't until the 1994 that the first GMO seed went on the market and that was not even commercially viable.

The US got into the war very late and if not for English farmers the population would have died out long before the US help came.

Farming grains today with chemicals and GMOs is totally different than it was in 1980 or even the 1990.

Big farms are wastelands to local wildlife. They are inefficient in that they have huge run off that is destroying the oceans. Despite all the machines and equipment they still exploit migrant labor. Their toxicity is evident in our own food chain and our bodies.

And yes, I currently have an organic farm and was making good money until personal issues forced me to stop.

I don't want to argue with you. You are so full of misinformation and anger that I think this is more to you than just a discussion on farming policy. Believe what you want to.

But an understanding that we will not feed 7 billion with small farms.

We have to dig out of this administration and soon.

"Jan. 29, 2016 – In the most extensive poll of how U.S. farmers and ranchers plan to vote for president, respondents overwhelmingly say they’ll support a Republican, and among those, 40 percent say they will support Donald Trump."

https://www.agri-pulse.com/articles/6513-new-poll-sheds-light-on-how-farmers-ranchers-will-vote-for-president

70% of respondents identified themselves as Republicans or Lean Republican.

https://www.agri-pulse.com/ext/resources/pdfs/a/g/r/1/6/AgriPulse_Presidential_Survey_Results_1_29_2016.pdf

Make sure the farmers know who is screwing them.

that support may begin to fray. He is being so overt in his bias towards megafarms (corporate) vs smaller/family operations.

See this post (from earlier on this thread).

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=12550463

Two instances from the past two months or so. Farmers expressing concerns due to the trade wars = careless joke about Farmers as whiners; and last week - statement that Big Businesses (farmers) get bigger and smaller ones get out. Comments made to a Dairy Expo in Wisconsin (audience = diary farmers).

Who could have predicted a trade war would be difficult to win and would actually threaten American farmers with bankruptcy?

Trump brings farmers to their knees

And then he raises them up.

They just can't find enough workers to harvest.

As a side note, if you haven't already watched it, get the documentary "The Biggest Little Farm". It's an amazing story of a young couple who decide to try to bring back the small, self-sufficient, extremely diversified farm and all the trials and tribulations they go through.

In my neck of the woods there are an abundance of yard signs stating "No Farms. No Food." which are part of a campaign to support the multiple CAFO's in NC.

The ignorance of these individuals who support an industry that threatens the environment and the public health is mind numbing. Not to mention the horrific conditions for the animals.

The issue of agricultural wellness, is never cut and dried and one farmer is often the producer of thousands of hogs with little overall generalized benefit to the farming industry.

In fact these CAFO's are definitely more harm than good and representative of the degree to which we have become separated from the concept of where food comes from. Adding to the irony is that major producers of the hogs on these CAFO's are now owned by Chinese interests, WH Group of China for example.

We waste so much food and misunderstand the business of farming even more.

I am not optimistic about the future of our agricultural wellness from any direction.

Background info:

North Carolina CAFO Hog Farms Pose Ongoing Threat to Environment, Public Health

ruined their markets, ruined their ability to harvest.

I told my daughter a few months ago that I wouldn't be surprised if all of the contaminated food is linked to a work force that has lost many experienced workers, because of the crappy immigration/refugee/migrant enforcement.

Why weren't those fuckers out there harvesting the hemp and other crops rotting in the fields? It's a job... one of those cushy well paying jobs the brown people were "stealing" from them because they are simultaneously lazy and spending all their time raping and robbing........ Seriously, fuck all the anxiety driven monsters, every last one of them.

a blood-red agricultural western state. Forgive me, but at this point, my attitude toward farmers and ranchers is "meh, fuck 'em." They've brought this shit on themselves, and yet continue to twist themselves into pretzels to avoid putting any blame at all on their Dear Leader while continuing to denigrate the black guy and the party that actually tried to help them. I hear it all the fucking time, as this state has been in the bag for the toddler president from the beginning. I'm DONE with trying to "understand" them, cater and pander to them, etc.

Unless we have government price support or control farming is a quick route to poverty. That why they were put into place.

It been 35 years since my Ag Econ class and I forget the lingo. But farmers are not like car makers. They cannot control the prices they get.

Now I’m not talking about CSAs and local farmers selling high priced produce to people willing to pay for it. Like me. I eat eggs raised by a family that has 70 hens running free. Best eggs ever. At $5 a dozen. Lots of people can’t pay $5 a dozen for eggs.

But farmers all know this. They support government help for themselves because they know the are sunk without that help. And it the Democratic Party that made it happen. But they are not happy for Government help for people not like them. You know. People who are not white.

No sympathy from me.

If they voted for Hillary or didn't vote at all, then I feel bad for them. But I do agree with you that the Rethuglican farmers can go f*** themselves.

Solve your problems.

Whatever Trump touches DIES!

they say all day

if americans want to get back to a real democracy and get any real reform they have to destroy the talk radio monopoly

SEASONAL work outdoors. Most don't want to work in slaughterhouses or dairy farms either. They don't want to do landscaping or construction work in August when it's 100°. So we depend on foreign workers. Over half of agricultural workers in the US are undocumented. If you eat, you support illegal immigration.

If manual labor gives them a better life than working at McDonalds or WalMart, maybe things will change. Food would cost more, and trade policy would need to be fair.

The free market should apply to labor. Scarcity, in a normal market, raises prices.

It just doesn't work into modern day life. If you want to be a full time harvester, it means you will have to move farm to farm, crop to crop. "Migrant farm workers" doesn't just mean they emigrated from another country. It means they have to follow the harvests. Think "The Grapes of Wrath". No one wants to live that way. A permanent job at McDonalds or Walmart IS better.

Anyone but Trump.

If she voted for Trump, explain very carefully that she was voting against her own self interest, and if she'd been anything but comatose or living under a large rock or watching Fox "News" she'd have known that.

I have zero sympathy for Trump voters who are now aghast at what he's doing.

Stein was all buddy buddy with the Russians. They kept her in the running just to tear votes away from Hillary to lower her vote total in order to help Trump win......

The Northwest pear industry likely will have to live without China this season, but export markets elsewhere appear to be wide open.

The export market appears to be a net positive for 2018, marketers say.

“It looks fairly good for the pear industry,” said Mark Powers, president of Yakima, Wash.-based Northwest Horticultural Council.

China has retaliated against the U.S. for steel and aluminum tariffs, which means it would cost growers about 40% more to send fruit into that market this year than last, Powers said.

However, that shouldn’t make much of a dent in U.S. pear export shipments, he said.

“China is a relatively small market for our pear growers,” Powers said, noting competition from Europe had eroded U.S. pear volumes bound for the Chinese mainland. He said shipments to China last year totaled 30-40 containers.

https://www.thepacker.com/article/us-pear-export-outlook-positive-despite-china-tariffs

.....to a cannabis grower two years ago. It broke my heart.