General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Fall of the UK - How on earth have we got to this point?
The UK has gone from friction less trade and amazing trade deals to the smashing up of the Good Friday Agreement and potential food & medicine shortages as we inch closer to a no deal. It seems obvious from the noises coming out Downing Street this morning that they have effectively given up any hope of achieving a deal on terms the right wing nutters who have seized control would accept.
How on earth are the Brexiters still cheering this nonsense on? The extreme right have managed to convince the Kingdom that the 17.2 million who voted for Brexit are sacrosanct, and we are supposed to believe that they have flipped the views of these people into a hard-line far right extreme Brexit Party view of the world, and the moron that rules us is quite happy to go along with this cause power.
However, if you look behind the rhetoric of the May European election outcome, when the Brexit party won what is seemingly a huge victory, fuelling the fire of their rhetoric, it is all smoke and mirrors. Given low turnout, it got about 10% of the vote if we extrapolate it out. BoJo is focusing his attention on this 10% and ignoring the centrist middle. So, we end up staring down the gun of a no deal Brexit because there is a core support for the BXP (and Brexit) running at circa 10% and BoJo needs them to win an election. That is not 17.2 million. Not by a long shot. The current conservative leadership is in thrall to a bunch of little Englander empire reliving wannabees who are demonstrably noisy and aggressive and refuse to be swayed by evidence or facts. You know what they say
empty vessels rattle loudest.
The question must be as we gaze in horror at this clusterfuck, why should we accept the building of a future based on their nonsense? If you look at the hard line Brexiteers half of them will be dead before any new trade deal has been agreed for crying out loud. Either from old age or because they can no longer get the medicines that generally people reaching old age need to keep blinking and breathing.
I go back to my first point
trade deals, the troubles, the risk to the Good Friday Agreement, borders, food shortages, medicine shortages, etc et al
How any leave voter can still support this is beyond me. Its a cult, there can be no other explanation. It is the beginning of the end for the United Kingdom, mark my words.
In the words of Donald Tusk this morning..
@BorisJohnson, whats at stake is not winning some stupid blame game. At stake is the future of Europe and the UK as well as the security and interests of our people. You dont want a deal, you dont want an extension, you dont want to revoke, quo vadis? Pretty much sums this shit show up, heh.
Javaman
(62,530 posts)mostly, via a public that is not politically engaged.
but also do to people not reading the newspapers and getting their "news" from sketchy sites. Hence the explosion of conspiracy theories.
Mark Baker
(94 posts)We got there because of people who did read the newspapers. The best-selling newspapers in the UK are all terrible. Younger people, who don't read newspapers as much, were far more likely to vote remain.
bdamomma
(63,868 posts)CBS Sunday Morning There was question posed for US citizenry.
Do you read any daily newspapers regularly?
Yes 36%
No 63%
Not engaged whatsoever. Fuck.
Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)Go old school
Mike 03
(16,616 posts)This is really coming to a head. Parliament has never been more intense than it has been since Johnson took the helm.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)Adsos Letter
(19,459 posts)Unfamiliar with that acronym.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)They happen weekly in Parliament
Lucky Luciano
(11,257 posts)malaise
(269,025 posts)and you no longer own our countries and it's not just Britain.
hatrack
(59,587 posts)Looking for an independent Scotland circa 2021 or 2022. That'll be . . . . interesting.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)England didn't want to let in a few more immigrant refugees...
Fla Dem
(23,678 posts)bobbieinok
(12,858 posts)Some Tory power blocks seem to have been super anti mainland Europe for a long time.
Seems to have started?continued? at time England was still suffering effects of post WWII austerity.
Never having lived in England, don't really understand what's been going on.
Still mourning loss of Empire where 'Britain rules the waves and English shall never, ever be slaves'??
roamer65
(36,745 posts)if Brexit happens.
Northern Ireland will sit down with the Irish and EU for talks on unification.
Falcata
(156 posts)to stand on it's own. Pretty much has always been that way. As for NI, do you really think the Proddy's in the north are going to put themselves in the position of a minority in the Republic? Sorry I just don't see it happening. And throw in Wales as well. Same position as Scotland.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)When / if the oil price comes back Scotland will have the North Sea Oil revenues...
You ignore the fact that the economic fall out of a no deal for Scotland is massive and that if you ask any Scottish Nationalist about the potential economic hardships of leaving the United Kingdom they will say any price is worth paying.
An all Ireland settlement in the short term is unlikely, however there will be those among the middle class Unionist community who in a border poll could well vote for an all Ireland if the worst excesses of a no deal on Northern Ireland, as predicted, are real, they may well choose economic well being over the union.
Wales, I agree, is going nowhere.
CanonRay
(14,103 posts)Soph0571
(9,685 posts)CanonRay
(14,103 posts)Our own nutter is getting crazier by the hour.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)NCjack
(10,279 posts)Especially our food. The prices are going up and the quality going down.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)and they already know it & are planning for it. The hard brexiteers keep saying we will be a vassal state of the EU. Heh. Try the USA
dlk
(11,566 posts)The ultra-rich are rarely constrained in their quest for ever-increasing wealth and domination. They use propaganda, often based in racism, sexism and false religious persecution to further their single-minded agenda.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)dlk
(11,566 posts)OnDoutside
(19,960 posts)the outcome of Brexit. We wouldn't be in this position if Labour had a rational leader. Make no mistake, the unions have a huge amount of blame for this, when they chose Ed over David Milliband. Had Milliband the elder led Labour, Cameron may not have won.
Nitram
(22,803 posts)sentiment with the same kind of disinformation and phoney social media posts that got Trump elected. No one realized how powerful a little pressure on the right societal pressure points could be when backed by a data-driven media campaign on social media. Just enough to tip the balance.
Dirty Socialist
(3,252 posts)Not only did Russia manipulate the immigrant crisis, it helped fuel the crisis by helping Assad with his reign of terror over Syria.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)There is no groundswell among voters to remain.
We have for a long time been given the image of the erudite Englishman or Englishwoman, he or she urbane, tolerant of all they meet, forward-looking. In fact, England is more deeply riven by racial, cultural and class animus than the USA is, in it is way behind. The USA military was fully integrated in the 1950s, the English military was until a few years ago a White bastion. We see the occasional English Black singer or moviestar rise to high levels, but at around 220 million population, not remotely close to the frequency seen in the 330 million USA. English politicians of all stripes are overwhelmingly White and educated in elite academies, children from largely well-off families - there are exceptions, Margaret Thatcher was one (relatively common upbringing, married into privilege). England is behind us in diversity and acceptance of races other than White, it should be no surprise that Brexit, with it's raw appeal to racist sentiment would pass there and still not be roundly rejected by English society even today.
Soph0571
(9,685 posts)There is a big difference between Brexit and no deal brexit
Our population is 69 million not 220 million
I think we can concur that both countries have issues with white systemic supremacy
I disagree that we are behind America on race relations - we have different social and economic issues at play in this area which makes comparison difficult in any real sense, but to say we are behind America is really not accurate. We are as equally fucked on this for different reasons.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)But I stand by my thesis. In every important measure, England is a less diverse and less tolerant country than the USA. Even with an ~5:1 ratio is population, Blacks in the USA reach higher levels of wealth and fame at a far, far higher frequency than 5:1. If one looks at the list of Black billionaires and multi-hundred millionaire, the list is dominated by American Blacks and Africans, not one English Black on the list. Even if we drop down to below $100 million, still not one Black English person on the list above $50 million. The USA has prominent Blacks in Academia, Medicine, Law, I don't know of one Black English person in those fields who is of note.
A society is rated by it's most visible measures of equality. England lags depressingly well behind even the troubled USA.
Xolodno
(6,395 posts)...went ahead and clicked on the comments section, it was over run by pro-Brexit types, but it got my attention. Here's a synopsis;
1. Many believe the UK is the back bone of the EU and Germany is paper thin and the EU will come back begging for a better deal.
2. Some think that a deal can't be negotiated until they know the full ramifications, and like #1, think the UK will get the better deal afterwards.
3. Don't believe the economic consequences will be dire, but in fact will make things better.
4. Think Scotland and Northern Ireland should just shut up and take it and when push comes to shove, will stay with the UK as it will obviously be better for them.
5. Believe they are shedding the oppressive yolk of the EU and thus will be better off once they aren't be held down by them.
They truly are in a world of their own.