Why the hell don't they turn on the lights?! Investigation by flashlight is ridiculous. Shooting in the dark in a residence doubly so - they treated it as if it were an empty warehouse in the middle of the night as if "no one should be there at this hour".

One more completely avoidable tragedy.

to change that if we want this stuff to end.

a terrible tragedy that the cop will most likely get off on.

It never ends with these policemen. This is horrifying.

But, if there's more than one bad cop, the department has a problem:

police unions are corrupt as hell as they protect their members from policies most of working americans have to undertake, like fricken drug testing, Why is that? Really time for the public to take back control of those paid to protect and to serve

Another case where owing a gun leads to tragic consequences.

Way too many armed people who are untrained.

To me, it looks like they are trying to make it appear as such, but I don't think the PD is explicitly saying there is a direct link. All they did was insert into the end of the video some unexplained still photos of a firearm that they found somewhere in the house. I made this mistake at first too, because I didn't analyze the video close enough. I assumed what I think they are trying to get people to assume. Which is that she had the gun on her (not that it would matter in this case even if she did)

As for her leaving the door open, I don't see the relevance. Here in North Texas we've finally had some nice cool weather the last couple days. All my windows are open and I'd probably have my front door open if I had a screen door. It's nice having fresh air flow through again.

The only person who did anything wrong here is the cop. He is the one who should not have had a gun. Let alone any sort of authority to use it on citizens.

So she could have had a gun, but it wouldn't be uncommon in TX for people to have guns in their homes.

People who get a handgun usually do so for protection but if one leaves the door open, then protection isn't an issue and there isn't any justification for having a gun.

That being said, and I think you agree with me on that, we need much more info as to what happened.

Based on what I've heard I'm under the impression she may have been babysitting or something. So she may not have even known there was a gun in the house. It's also likely she may not have even known the door was open. There was a kid in the house who could have left it open. She may have thought she shut the door, but the door didn't shut and swung open without her noticing (I've done that many times). Even if she had the door open to let cool air through, I don't see the relevance to the story of her being killed by police in a house she had every right to be in. The death of this woman is tragic as it is, but imagine if the kid was also near the window with her. More information is always good and I always for being open to new information as it comes in. It's just that when I watch the released video, it's hard to think of anything that could change much.

Now, I don't think you're defending the officers here. At least I don't get the impression you're explicitly doing so. However, I think by focusing on there gun that was present in the house, it's kind of an implicit defense. Almost as if saying she brought it upon herself. Giving the benefit of the doubt I don't think that's your intent, but I think a lot of people might assume that's your intent. I will say that I think focusing on the civilians gun draws attention away from the real issue of these police officers/police departments dehumanizing the people they are supposed to be serving. These cops should have approached this house with the mindset there were real humans who exist and live there. As such, they should approach everyone and every situation as if they are dealing with good decent people, and only adjust to a more aggressive posture if specific events take place to warrant it. These guys went into this situation thinking the worst. I think stuff like that should be the primary focus of our discussions with cases like this.

That is exactly what Kaleva has done in this thread, saying she brought it on herself, and deserved to be killed.

There almost seems to be some sick form of joy and Schadenfreude that a person was shot who, for all we know, may have only looked out of a window because strangers were running around her house.

Those posts read like textbook trolling, don't they?

And I'm afraid it's not trolling in the sense of only pretending to have these opinions which makes it even worse.

This is beyond sickening. I thought police were trained for things like this. I will NEVER call the police.

I'm thinking there is a logical fallacy there in your post

I had it open last night.

of an unjustified shooting/murder of this pre-med student. How many lives would she have saved if allowed to finish her life/studies? Sad that this is the pattern in America. Still after all these decades of murder/lynchings/burnings of African-Americans. Slavery by another name.

If she'd had a gun in her hand, or anywhere the cop could have seen it, you know they would have said so. For all you know, the firearm they found was locked up in a gun safe. Stop blaming the victim here.

police. Supposedly she heard a noise in her backyard and went to investigate. Thus she would have been doing nothing wrong even if she had the gun with her in her own home.

and are calling 9-1-1. And don't go investigate. Hunker down, preferably in your safe room, which every gun owner should have, and call 9-1-1.

She had no idea anyone was there until the cop yelled at her and then immediately shot her. The story also doesn't say she was armed, so why would she say she was, even if she did have time to say it?

i might have missed it so can you quote me the applicable text.

"Jefferson was playing video games with her nephew when they heard what they believed to be a prowler outside, her relatives’ attorney said. When she went to the window to see what was going on, she was shot, the attorney said."

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236067328.html#storylink=cpy

while inside her own home?

"Jefferson was playing video games with her nephew when they heard what they believed to be a prowler outside, her relatives’ attorney said. When she went to the window to see what was going on, she was shot, the attorney said."

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236067328.html#storylink=cpy

Retreat to a designated safe room and call 9-1-1. You don't know if the prowler is armed or not or what his or her intentions are. The lawyer didn't say the woman thought there were kids horsing around outside or that it was some kind of animal. he said she thought it was a prowler. A criminal.

If I hear something outside, I go look. Period. I'm not going to cower in a closet and call the cops, only to find out a raccoon is on the porch.

Sure, I might get shot for it someday. But my assumption is that it would be by a CRIMINAL, not a cop.

Stop saying it's okay for cops to shoot a woman looking out the window of her home.

She got roughly the same amount of time that little Tamir Rice got before he was murdered by cop, too. Soooo- is 4 seconds the new rule? This makes me sick.

Same ole same ole - at least if you're black.

Wtf?

Instead, the cops just say they found a gun in the house. I guess they expect people to conclude that she deserved to be killed, as Kaleva has done in this thread.

Do you have the slightest shred of evidence that she was an irresponsible gun owner, or that the presence of a gun in the house contributed to her death in any way?

If one has a handgun in the home that indicates to most that the person is concerned about home and personal safety but then leaving the door open indicates that safety isn't a concern so why have a gun anywhere in the house in the first place?

The doors are the first line of defense and the gun ought to be the defense of last resort. Leaving a door or doors opens makes the gun the first line of defense and that's being very irresponsible.

Having a gun is serious business and many people are either killed or injured because some or many gun owners don't take it seriously.

I guess Botham Jean deserved it too.

It's good to know what some here regard as death penalty offenses.

Two doors were open but the screen doors were shut.

I ask you, if it's safe enough to leave doors open, is there a reason, any at all, to have a gun in the house?

You're being ridiculous in your attempts to blame the victim.

make it seem like she's to blame for her own execution. Rinse. Repeat for the next victim.

Strange.

and not discuss what the gun owner may have done wrong. Based on current reports, which could be quite inaccurate, I can count several. Can you name any?

Based on what I've read, I'm thinking this person had little to no training on use of a gun for home defense.

"Based on what I've read, I'm thinking this person had little to no training on use of a gun for home defense."

And I asked you if you could list anything the gun owner may have done wrong.

You just said you weren't interested in playing. Which means you can think of a few but just don't want to get ino a discussion about it here.

victim-blaming boot lickers are really infuriating, and discouraging.

I worked with them when I was a dispatcher years ago, and I found most of them to be decent people doing a tough job for the right reasons. Most of them wanted to help people and make a difference in their communities. I wound up befriending quite a few of them outside the job, and always enjoyed their company.

That being said, this officer did literally everything wrong, and an innocent woman is dead as a result. He needs to have his gun and badge confiscated, FWPD needs to drop him like a bad habit, and the DA needs to charge him. Manslaughter, negligent homicide, whatever the appropriate statute is, they need to do it.

No excuse for what this officer did. If he's that damn fearful, he had no business ever being a cop in the first place. He could just as easily have shot and killed Ms. Jefferson's nephew in the bargain.

blame the victim.

Last edited Mon Oct 14, 2019, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Wtf?

I frequently defend cops here. But this is bullshit. She was murdered.

Way too many people get killed because of lack of training or carelessness. And frankly, I believe many people who have guns for self protection don't actually need them.

The cop had no idea who was inside the home, much less whether a gun was present.

Cops should not be able to offload their risk onto the general public! If they're too scared to perform their duties in a responsible way, they should not be cops!

And I'm expressing my own opinion. I'm a firm believer that doors are the first line of defense and the gun is the last resort. If one feels that they are safe to leave doors open, then they probably don't need a gun. There are gun owners who are John Rambo types who think the gun is all they need and they talk about confronting intruders or prowlers. I think it more wise to retreat, if one can, even if armed. I'd rather let a bad guy run off with my tv while I hunker down in my bedroom with my gun then confront the guy and possibly end up having to shoot him or them.

Talking about doors, all my outside doors are reinforced and so is the master bedroom door. The master bedroom being the safe room.

You really need to go sit down and stop posting about this. The more you say, the more obvious it becomes that ...

Oh, never mind. I'm not looking to get a hide. But I think everyone gets my point - and yours.

Reinforced doors, a safe room?

Can’t imagine living in that kind of terror.

Guess I’ve been lucky; most places I’ve lived, I’ve never had to lock a door, much less “reinforce” them. I feel kind of sorry for you that you live that way.

"And frankly, I believe many people who have rationalize dead civilians are hacks..."

Some people seem to think that owning a gun is a joke. Fuck training. Fuck drills. Fuck thinking things out. It's just a joke.

take context into account. The context in this case is that the homeowner was CLEARLY home and awake. In that scenario, even in a high crime area, you're not going to be concerned about a home invasion occurring.

The more common concern is a burglary that happens when potential perpetrators think you're not home. In that context, closing and locking one's door is a must. And that's also the same context in which a gun, if present, would come into play (assuming the closed and locked door is breached somehow).


All of that being said, it's still not relevant to what occurred in this latest state-sanctioned execution of an unarmed civilian.

A joke, indeed.

But please, continue rationalizing the irrational. If you are unable to perceive any possibilities allowing for gun ownership and an open door, that bit of linear, shortsightedness is on you and you alone.

up on your porch and shoots you dead, it's your fault because you left your door open even though you have a gun in the house.

My understanding is that it was in another room. It was completely irrelevant to this situation, but how convenient for it to be thrown into the story to help muddy the waters.

I keep my door open a lot.

Guess I deserve to be shot?

And yes, that is exactly what is going on. Maybe take a little time to reflect.

Right now in North Texas temperatures have just started to go down from summer with our first real cold front. It's the time of year when people are leaving their windows open all day and if you have a screen door, you might want to leave your door open as well.

So the reports of this woman leaving her door "wide open" are a bit misleading. There was almost certainly a good reason why she did so.

I can't see too many reasons why this shouldn't be prosecuted as manslaughter at the very least. Trigger happy cops are a threat to everyone.

If there's a gun in the house, leaving the door(s) open now makes the gun the first line of defense and that's not a good choice.

There's nothing wrong with leaving a door open o cool off but that indicates to me home protection isn't a concern and if not, there is no reason to have a weapon in the home.

And lots of people leave the doors open with the screen doors latched when it turns cool in the South

and do believe that a person ought to have a very valid reason to own a weapon. Some advocate the banning of all guns. There's a minority that do believe like you do.

of an innocent person gunned down in her home to play at hammering DUers who are in favor of gun regulation.

This is the most grotesque display that I've ever seen here.

How about Botham Jean? If he’d had a gun in his house, it would be ok if that cop shot him?

to under go extensive background checks, attend mandatory training and closing the gun show and private sales loop holes

If you have a gun for home protection, according to you it appears, one is already living in a state of perceptual fear.

The gun I saw in the pics was a handgun. I doubt it was used solely for hunting and/or target shooting.

I'm not the one who appears to be suggesting the victim is to blame for their own death. As far as I'm concerned it's completely irrelevant why there was a gun in the home. Strange you'd think it matters. I'm not really sure what kind of agenda you are trying to push here, but whatever it is it fell quite flat. You might want to abandon it. Just sayin'

"Talking about doors, all my outside doors are reinforced and so is the master bedroom door. The master bedroom being the safe room."

Last edited Sun Oct 13, 2019, 06:16 PM - Edit history (1)

In a Texas summer

... a breath of fresh air and you didn't have to have the AC on.

that he could hit the target with one shot. <SARCASM> sort of.

She had a right to open her doors and keep just the screen door close since this is Texas and it finally stopped being 100 degrees. And she had a right to get out of bed when she heard people walking around her house. And she had a right to own a gun.

This woman is not to blame for her own shooting.

If a gun owner isn't going to take the time to be properly trained on what to in a situation where there may be intruders, then they shouldn't own a gun. This isn't a joke.

You keep going down that road

from the topics that should matter: A person being killed, how that could have happened and what can be done to prevent similar instances. It's very obvious you don't want to discuss that and your efforts are transparent.
Whether she owned a gun is completely irrelevant as long as she didn't point it at the cop. Whether she left the door open is her own business and might have happened by accident. That doesn't warrant getting shot by cop.

"Jefferson was playing video games with her nephew when they heard what they believed to be a prowler outside, her relatives’ attorney said. When she went to the window to see what was going on, she was shot, the attorney said."

Read more here: https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/fort-worth/article236067328.html#storylink=cpy

If one suspects thee is a prowler outside, don't go investigate. Retreat to a safe room and call 9-1-1. Yell out that one is armed and calling the police.

Nothing at all that the police could have done or could learn from that for future encounters.
Look out the window? Prepare to get shot.

But you seem to get upset about anyone trying to get people to look at the big picture. A picture which includes the actions of the gun owner. Would you prefer that this whole thread was limited to just part of the picture? I don't see any post by you going after people who are just talking about what the police did. Why is that?

As long as she didn't point the gun at the cop, her owning a gun is absolutely irrelevant to this killing. Because it wouldn't have changed a damn thing. How can you not get that? You are the one who is desperately trying to derail this discussion away from any talk about how a cop shot another person in her own home.
I mean, good for you that you found something to blame a victim for getting shot, you can be proud. But her owning a gun is as relevant as the color of her carpet.

And that is of a cop who didn't even announce himself and took 4 seconds to shoot her through her bedroom window. That's it. It would have taken him even less time to move to cover if he thought she had a gun because he was outside. There was no reason for this to happen. None. It was entirely his fault.

As such the corollary... can you provide a link to any reputable gun training program that denies opening a door to allow a breeze in?

Or are you simply holding others to a higher standard of evidence to support a premise than you hold yourself to?

A LOT of people are extremely reluctant to call the police, even when they suspect a crime is taking place, for this very reason--they don't want to feel responsible for someone's death. We're way past the point where federal intervention and guidance is needed to get this issue under control.

INNOCENT! /s

Immortal Technique (@ImmortalTech) Tweeted:
Shot by Police in less than a second. Murdered while gaming with her nephew. Don’t you dare demonize her. Don’t bring up bad report cards from high school or some fuckin’ traffic stop. The custom of demonizing those killed purposefully or accidentally is done. #AtatianaJefferson https://t.co/BmYQ12eAHU

Link to tweet

Yeah, not in this case. This was 100% avoidable if the officer had exercised the least little bit of common sense and/or restraint. Instead, he opens fire without having the slightest idea if the person he's shooting at is a threat, or even who they are. If he's that fearful, being a cop isn't the career for him.

If FWPD is smart, they'll drop him like a hot potato, regardless of any legal action. His union will go to the wall defending him, of course, because that's what they do. I'll be curious to see what charges, if any, are filed against him.

I would have thought they would knock on the door and yell out, 'is everybody okay in there?' before assuming a crime was taking place.

People leave their doors open sometimes. I often forget to close the door after carrying in groceries, for example. Is it so alarming to see an open door?

But from what I've read, they didn't announce themselves, they were going around the house. Knocking for a welfare check when the police wasn't called for a crime seems indeed a better choice instead of wandering around in someone's property and pulling your gun against everything that moves.
I don't know how dark it was. From the inside, she might not even have seen anything or known that the command was directed at her.

Each department has its own procedures, but there are generally some commonalities.

I would have normally expected an officer to approach the front door, knock, and call out. They didn't have a report of an actual crime taking place, but this officer seems to have assumed he was responding to a burglary in progress. I'd be curious to hear how the dispatcher presented the call to the officer.

Not sure why he chose to do a walkaround of the residence prior to knocking on the door, either. That'd make sense if he had been dispatched to a prowler call, but not for a welfare check prompted by an open door.

The other thing is that, when he perceived a threat, he could have simply ducked to the side of the window (or under it, for that matter) to take cover. Had he done that, odds are this incident would have ended with no one hurt.

From my perspective, the whole thing was a totally avoidable series of mistakes on the officer's part. I feel bad for him to an extent, because I imagine he's devastated that he killed an innocent person. Ms. Jefferson's family is even more devastated, I'm sure. All emotions aside, though, he needs to face the consequences of what he's done.

When I saw the video cam, it seemed like less than one second (.6 makes sense).